Is this how you were treated as a child?

[rodgertutt]

RECOVERY FROM SPIRITUAL ABUSE

IS THIS HOW YOU WERE TREATED AS A CHILD?

When I was seven my stepmother lit a fire in a beaker and said to me, "If you don't open your heart's door to Jesus and invite Him in, God is going to put you into a fire much bigger and hotter than that after you die and He will never ever let you get out of it.”
So in my heart I prayed the way she said that I had to.

Awhile later she said it's obvious that you still are not saved because you are still such a bad boy.
At that point in time I felt totally hopeless, and I was sure that God had given up on me.

My Dad used to beat me with a bamboo cane repeatedly shouting "In Jesus Name, in Jesus Name," until the welts on my legs would bleed. He told me that it was easy to tell at an early age that I was going to go to hell.

Then they both sent me away to a foster home because they could no longer cope with my bad behavior. My real mother had died giving birth to me. My Dad's second wife had died at child birth too but the child did not live either.

So at the age of seven I became convinced that everyone had given up on me, including God.

Later, at the age of 28 (I'm 70 now) I began a twelve year nervous breakdown over my inability to successfully emotionally cope with the idea that God lets any creature suffer forever. I was only able to recover by gradually learning that there are no verses in the Bible that teach endless suffering in hell for anyone. See

http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Bible...Explained.html

From Rodger Tutt in Toronto, Canada
“That God may be All in all” 1Cor.15:28

http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/sa...orld/index.htm
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Absol...us-Christ.html

[rodgertutt]

WHAT I WISH I HAD KNOWN DURING MY YOUTH

How I recovered from a 12 year nervous breakdown (1966-78) I’m 70 years old
My name is Rodger Tutt. I am 70 years old. I could have avoided a horrific twelve year nervous breakdown (1966-78) had I known as a youth about the following information concerning what a correctly (literally, not interpretively) translated Bible teaches.

You can access my website through Google by typing in hope4you rodger tutt, or
My website is http://greater-emmanuel.org/Hope4You/

You can also access most of the following writings through Google by typing in the title.

BOOKS THAT SHOW THAT THE BIBLE TEACHES UNIVERSAL SALVATION,
THE ENTIRE CONTENTS OF WHICH CAN BE READ ONLINE

If necessary, copy and paste the following urls into the address bar.

0. ABSOLUTE ASSURANCE IN JESUS CHRIST – Charles Slagle
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Absol...us-Christ.html
1. HOPE BEYOND HELL - Gerry Beauchemin (recently published)
http://hopebeyondhell.net/Revised_Edition.pdf
2. CHRIST TRIUMPHANT - Thomas Allin
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/ChristTriumphant.htm
3. THE BIBLE HELL - J.W. Hanson
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/TheBibleHell.html
4. THE ORIGIN AND HISTORY OF THE DOCTRINE OF ENDLESS PUNISHMENT – Thomas Thayer
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/OriginandHistory.html
5. THE OUTCOME OF INFINITE GRACE – Dr. Loyal Hurley
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/infinitegrace.htm
6. JUST WHAT DO YOU MEAN "HELL" - J. Preston Eby
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/sa...world/hell.htm
7. ONE HUNDRED SCRIPTURAL PROOFS THAT JESUS CHRIST WILL SAVE ALL MANKIND - Thomas Whittemore
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/ScripturalProofs.html
8. TWENTY-FOUR SERMONS ON UNIVERSAL SALVATION – John Bovee Dods
http://www.tentmaker.org/Bovee2.htm#Top
9. THE SECOND DEATH AND THE RESTITUTION OF ALL THINGS – Andrew Jukes
http://www.tentmaker.org/restitutionindex.htm
10. ONE HUNDRED AND FIFTY REASONS FOR BELIEVING IN THE FINAL SALVATION OF ALL MANKIND – Erasmus Manford
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/150reasons.html
11. THE RICH MAN AND LAZARUS – J. Patching
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/RichM...-Patching.html
12. BIBLE TRANSLATIONS THAT DO NOT TEACH ETERNAL TORMENT – Gary Amirault
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/GatesOfHell.html
13. AION – AIONIOS – John Wesley Hanson
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Aion_lim.html
14. BIBLE THREATENINGS EXPLAINED – John Wesley Hanson
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Bible...Explained.html
15. THE CASE OF JUDAS, ETCETERA
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/asw/Chapter16.html
16. THE PROBLEM OF EVIL – John Essex
AND THE ROLE OF THE ADVERSARY – James Webb
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/TheProblemofEvil.html
17. HIS ACHIEVEMENT ARE WE – James Coram
http://concordant.org/expohtml/HisAc...ent/index.html
18. THE RESTITUTION OF ALL THINGS – Andrew Jukes
http://www.auburn.edu/~allenkc/jukes2.html
19. THE RESTITUTION OF ALL THINGS – George Hawtin
http://www.godfire.net/restitutionHawtin.html
20. THE SAVIOUR OF THE WORLD SERIES – J. Preston Eby
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/sa...orld/index.htm
ESPECIALLY THIS ONE IN THAT SERIES
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/sa...ircularity.htm
21. THE PURPOSE OF EVIL
http://thegloryrd.com:80/apadams/evil.html
22. TEN REASONS NOT TO BELIEVE THE TEACHING OF ETERNAL TORTURE
http://www.completerestorationinchri...asons-not.html
23. IS HELL ETERNAL OR WILL GOD’S PLAN FAIL?
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/is_he...nal_index.html

[simka2]

I am so sorry for what you went thru That must have been incrediably painful.

I remember right before my awakeing to what spiritual abuse was I listened to a focus on the family episode where the guest recommended getting a certain painting that dipicts both the torture of hell and the glories of heaven. Then it was recommended that this be hung were young children would be able to see it and absorb the images, thereby establishing a concrete picture of what the consequence was to not being saved

What scary is a really considered doing it. What parent doesn't want their child to go to heaven? Thankfully God had other ideas.

[rodgertutt]

Originally Posted by simka2

I am so sorry for what you went thru That must have been incrediably painful.
I remember right before my awakeing to what spiritual abuse was I listened to a focus on the family episode where the guest recommended getting a certain painting that dipicts both the torture of hell and the glories of heaven. Then it was recommended that this be hung were young children would be able to see it and absorb the images, thereby establishing a concrete picture of what the consequence was to not being saved
What scary is a really considered doing it. What parent doesn't want their child to go to heaven? Thankfully God had other ideas.

Thank you for your empathy Simka!

Evangelicals are divided in their opinion about the fate of children who die.

Calvinists, who believe in God’s sovereign election of the “few”, also believe that non-elect babies who die will spend eternity suffering in hell. John Calvin said, “there are babies a span long in hell”.

Arminians (free willers) consider this unfair, and assert that children who die will spend eternity in heavenly bliss. This of course is true, but not because the child is innocent. It’s true because the Scriptures teach that God intends to save everyone from everything that they need to be saved from.

A few years ago there was a story in a Montreal paper about an Ohio lady who drowned her baby in the bathtub. Her defense was that she loved the baby so much that she wanted to make sure that her child would not have to suffer forever in hell. After serving a sentence she remarried, had another child and drowned it for the same reason. She trusted that God would forgive her because her intention, though warped by false theology, was for the good of her children.

The jury decided that she was mentally ill, BUT WAS SHE? The simple pragmatic fact remains that her two infants (according to Arminian theology) will spend eternity in heavenly bliss because she loved them so much that she insured, by killing them, that this will be so.

Arminian Christians (free willers) believe that there is a magical split-second in time before which a child, if they die, will go to heaven, and after which, if they die will spend eternity suffering in hell. They call this “the age of accountability”.

If I believed this nonsense I might take a gun into the largest maternity ward in Toronto and before the police arrived, kill every infant who had just been born. This would cause an enormous amount of suffering to the parents, but this wouldn’t matter much in the long run, because probably most of them (according to evangelical theology) are destined to suffer forever in hell anyway, so why not save their babies from the same fate?

Don’t try to argue that what I would be doing would be wrong * (Thou Shalt Not Kill). The fact remains that my act would, in fact insure the babies’ eternal salvation. If Arminian Christians are right, then infanticide would certainly be one of the most effective ways of “saving souls”. Besides, God forgives murder, especially when it is done for such a noble, though misguided cause. Sure, they would lock me away in an institution, but I would spend my life reveling in the glow of the emotional high of knowing that I had, beyond any shadow of a doubt (even in the mind of Arminian Christians) guaranteed the salvation of the babies that I had killed.

Folks, the actual truth about the matter is much more sane and blessed. The Scriptures teach that salvation is all of the Lord, and He will not fail to save everyone of us according to His own timing. No one will be able to boast in His presence and say “I have saved my self from hell by exercising my faith in God’s provision.” God will get all of the glory for everyone’s salvation.

The important issue never should be “what is right or what is wrong”. The only really important issue is, “What is God going to do with the person who is wrong?!” The Scriptures teach that God will fit everyone of us into His master-plan in a positive way, and He will use our temporary involvement with sin to teach us the lessons that He wants us to learn. As my 96 year old Dad often says, “That’s what makes Him God!”

(Afterthought) - If abortionists are, for all practical purposes, among the most effective “soul-savers” in the world, why do Arminian evangelicals get so upset with them?!

* Evangelicals kills others in war for less worthy causes than trying to save their souls.

THE SAVIOUR OF THE WORLD SERIES
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/sa...orld/index.htm

ABSOLUTE ASSURANCE IN JESUS CHRIST
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Absol...us-Christ.html

[Reg]

Also very glad you recovered. Not to undermine what you went through as a child that led you to the nervous breakdown, but we have discussed this main theme of yours before here.

http://www.christianrecovery.com/vb/...6559#post46559

I agree with what others have said about it.

I happen to believe in an answer to this seemingly terrible possibility in the next life is ANNIHILATION. But I don't believe this is the place to get into it. This is specifically a place where we find support for what we suffered regarding SA.

I would like to hear more about some of the experiences you have had along the way of your recovery. More things that are personal not just a list of webpages. That is what helps us to relate to those things in a more personal way. Do you understand what I'm saying? This is not intended to denigrade or put you down in any way. I sympathize/empathize what you have been through.

BTW, I live right in your backyard, NW about 1 1/2 hrs - 20 minutes N of Georgetown. Do you attend a local church now? I do and maybe if you want some time you could meet me there one Sunday.

[hoipoloi]

Roger

I'm ashamed that my experience of Spiritual Abuse is so minor compared with your own.

What you had to put up with is truly horrible. And the theological issues you mention are things I have tried to sort out also. (I expect most of us have tried to sort them out.)

The Heaven and Hell thing can either be positive and encouraging or it can be negative and damaging. At our church there has been talk among those who don't usually go to church that one preacher has been talking about Hell at the Funeral Services. Not good.

But your experiences show the sheer damaging cruelty that can come of this kind of thing.

God Bless and try to keep positive.

Iain

[beginagainrose]

Roger... I am sickened to read your story of what happened to you as a child and beyond, I am sooo sorry for your suffering. There is no question that your abuse went way beyond spritiual and with the long-term consequences that follows. Doctrinal debates usually end badly here and many have left because of that... not even sure what you mean by "universal salvation". But if that means that Jesus died for the whole world so there is no hell and if there was, no one is there now... well, I would have to disagree. That being said: A child should be taught about the Love of God, first and foremost. Sadly, your family was probably acting out in a similar way to how they were treated as children. I celebrate your recovery, thus far, and pray you continue to discover the whole truth of God's Word and the joy and peace that comes with the security of that Truth.

[rodgertutt]

I am a "Christian Biblical Universal Transformationist" now.
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/sa...estitution.htm
See especially the very last paragraph on that link.

I’m convinced that after we have thought the very best thoughts about God, we can be sure that He is even better than that because He is able to do above what we can even think, Ephesians 3:20. And IMHO I cannot think any higher thoughts than universal transformation.

I believe that after our resurrection from the dead God will eventually somehow transform every second of everyone's suffering into something better that it happened.

That includes both the unexplained and unjustifiable suffering that we all experience in varying degrees, as well as what the Bible calls "kolasis aionian" which means age-during corrective chastisement that everyone who needs it will experience.

I believe that God will eventually fit every unique individual into His master plan in a positive way that necessitates their unique temporary involvement in evil and suffering.

I believe that God has both the ability and the intention to save all fallen creatures from everything from which they need to be saved, and He will not fail to do so.

I believe that God's determination, within the wise counsel of His DECRETIVE will which is that which MUST occur, to eventually rid all of creation from suffering, will in every case, overcome the strongest will that is temporarily opposed to God's PRECEPTIVE will which is what His creatures OUGHT to do.

I believe the only mistake that I am probably making is in grossly underestimating just how gloriously God will achieve this universal transformation through what Christ accomplished for everyone by His death and resurrection, through the power in the blood of his cross. That is the kind of God that I see in the Bible.

Realizing that he is including everyone without exception, the following quote by universalist Dr. Leslie Weatherhead nicely sums up what I believe.

“God’s purposes are so vast and glorious, beyond all guessing now, that when they are achieved and consummated, all our sufferings and sorrows of today, even the agonies that nearly break our faith, the disasters that well nigh overwhelm us, shall, seen from that fair country where God’s age long dreams come true, bulk as little as bulk now the pieces of a broken toy upon a nursery floor, over which, thinking that all our little world was in ruins, we cried ourselves to sleep.”

Regarding “the son of perdition” click on
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Bible...Explained.html
then scroll down to
THE SON OF PERDITION

SATAN’S SALVATION ETCETERA - Grace super-exceeding!!!

THE OUTCOME OF INFINITE GRACE – Dr. Loyal Hurley
an online scriptural expostion
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/infinitegrace.htm

It would have been easy for God to impress upon Satan that it would not temporarily be in his best interest to choose evil, but God didn’t do that because He had (has) an eonian plan to use the temporary existence of evil and suffering to teach lessons. Then at the consummation of God’s plan for the ages of time God will eradicate evil and suffering from existence.
http://www.saviourofall.org/Tracts/Eons2.html

Since all of creation is in the Son of God’s love, through Whom God delights to reconcile all, whether those on the earth or those in the heavens, there is no more reason to suppose that Satan (and Judas and Hitler and Stalin) are not included therein than that any other creature is not included therein.

Therefore, it must be that that notable creature who had rightly long been termed “the Adversary,” is very much included in the reconciliation of the universe, at which time this title (“Adversary” or “Satan”) necessarily will no longer apply, since he will be reconciled and be at peace.

A time is coming when Satan himself, the instigator of human opposition and dissension will be beneath our feet. Rom. 16:20.
Now he dominates the actions of many a saint. But later his place and power will be taken from him and we will be above him, able to subdue and control the one who, next to our flesh, was the cause of most of our miseries. Just as the enemies of Christ will figuratively find themselves a footstool for His feet, so will the greatest of all our enemies be placed beneath our power.

But best of all, we will not retaliate. We will not use our authority to further alienate and estrange Satan from God or from ourselves. We, to whom conciliation was first presented, will be conciliatory to all, and be able to bring back all our enemies into the circle of friendship and conciliation with God.

Doubtless due to Satan’s machinations, we cannot now even bring about peace among ourselves. But then all our own differences will have been dissolved, and we will be able to bring it to our erstwhile enemy in the spirit world, the Adversary himself.

Satan is an enemy of God, and must be included among the enemies reconciled to God by the blood of Christ's cross, one of those "in heaven." Since death is the last enemy, then Satan must be reconciled to God prior to the destruction of death, and the subsequent emptying of death, and the presentation of the whole reconciled universe to God, when God becomes All in all.

http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/sa...on-heavens.htm

C.S. Lewis wrote, “The greatest surprise for Satan will occur when he learns that he has been perfectly doing the will of God all along.”

Personally I think the greatest demonstration of God’s grace in action among the celestials will be when Satan bows in humble submission and love in front of His Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

Any hell that anyone will experience the Bible calls "kolasis aionian," which means age-during corrective chastisement.
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/asw/Chapter11.html

It is limited in duration, and corrective in purpose.
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Aion_lim.html
http://www.savior-of-all.com/aionian.html

I think that everyone who needs it will experience just the right amount of what the Bible calls "kolasis aionian" which means "age-during corrective chastisement."

See http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/sa...fFire-Eby.html

I BELIEVE THAT NO ONE IS BEYOND THE REACH OF GOD'S GRACE WHICH IS ABLE TO SUCCESSFULLY INFLUENCE THE MOST STUBBORN OF WILLS AND WILL NOT FAIL TO DO SO.

We universal reconciliationists believe that because of the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ and the power in the blood of His cross, God will eventually transform all evil and suffering into something better that it happened for everyone, and when evil and suffering has served God’s eonian purpose, God will eradicate them both from existence.

CHRIST TRIUMPHANT - Thomas Allin (an online scriptural exposition)
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/ChristTriumphant.htm

THE SAVIOUR OF THE WORLD SERIES
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/sa...orld/index.htm
http://www.godfire.net/eby/saviour_of_the_world.html

ABSOLUTE ASSURANCE IN JESUS CHRIST
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Absol...us-Christ.html
http://www.sigler.org/slagle/absolute.htm

[Willow]

"I believe that after our resurrection from the dead God will eventually somehow transform every second of everyone's suffering into something better that it happened."

That's a beautiful thought Rodger!

[Lvanett]

Hi Rodgertutt

I am very sorry for the rotten childhood you had. Hopefully now things are better!