not going in circles - response/misunderstood

[standing still]

First, I want to thank those of you who took the time to respond to my "Halleleujah" E-mail. Man, I wasn't prepared for that. Thank you for what are obviously your honest, heart felt responses.

Now, let me respond to your perceptions, they showed me how obviously you misunderstood what I was saying.

As a preface, let me share with you that I am in counsel getting help with the incestual "delights" passed along to me through very abusive acts by spiritual leaders in performance based, legalistic churches.

My call to "praise" was not a Charismatic call. It was simply a reminder that it is ultimately through our right thinking in who we are in Christ that we ever climb out from under the dirty, residual effects as victims of abuse, whatever that may be.

As an illustration, after spending a few moments on what was my first visit to this site yesterday I went to the "Y" to workout. I found that just being on this site sharing my abuse story that many of the feelings from the abuse surfaced again.

It was debilitating. However, as I lay doing sit-ups, I began to praise God over and over again. This was not to obtain some sort of quick spiritual "high" as some responded I was doing. It was to get through the sordid moment I was experiencing.

There is no quick fix for this dilemma. I have suffered under it for twenty years. At the same time I'm not going to sit around in the doldrums and not incorporate praise to lift my self out of the temporary, sordid feelings that come from spiritual abuse. They are feelings that arise from triggers that resurface the effects of the abuse.

If I learn to place my mind toward God through prayer, sometimes feverishly, and for extended times in some moments, God IS FAITHFUL TO THAT PRAISE! It begins to lift me out of the miry pit, and places my mind in a position of recognizing who I am in Christ, and how great God truly is, and that He understands where I am, what I am struggling with, and sends His peace through my praise.

Having said that I have learned that I can choose to do one of two things when the pain hits. I can stay cringed up, or I can remind myself that if I stay the course through extended praise setting my mind on God, that He will lift me up and get me through the moment of debilitation.

That does not in any way minimize the effects of spiritual abuse, quite the contrary. My need to do that so often reminds me of the continued help I need through Godly counsel with professionals who understand how to help those who suffer from this dilemna. It is a sordid mess to climb out of especially when your own wife for years discredited Vanvonderan's findings, as well as the church where I was spiritually abused.

There was one responder who related that "how come these kind of people always have some kind of website." First, let's talk about the word "always." It reveals this responder is speaking from their emotion rather than their level headedness. Do you truly think they "always" do this.

Let me say this. My web site is for those like us who are looking for the empowerment to move out of our woundedness into healing. I personally find that if I am helping someone else that the pain of my woundedness seems to lose it's power.

My ministry to to give people an unhindered vision of discipling others. Discipling is helping each other to recognize who we are in Christ, and grow to the point where we can consistently live victorious lives. We also have to undersatnd that Christ was more abused than any one who ever lived. He had to love the abusers. That's not easy to do.

Untangling the deep seated bitterness we have towards our abusers is not an easy task. Many times it means going through our upbringing to understand how we ever grew into the kind of person that would allow ourselves to be abused as we were, or not being able to recognize it for what it was, and getting out from under it. I have found my patterns were set from my dysfunctional upbringing. (You can read about this on my site.)

Now, although my site is not completed I have asked my site administrators to please put my site back up sometime today so those on this site can take a look. The site is about thirty pages with graphics, and empowerment offerings. If you wait until about 6:00 PM EST it should be up by then. If not, try back later this evening or sometime tomorrow.

Please understand that the site is not fully operational. It will be fully operational around March 1 with an invitation to become a part of the ministry.

After reviewing the site I would like to hear your comments. You may also want to view my first post yesterday on this site under "going in circles" to give you a better prespective of where I am, and where I am going.

web address: klmministries.ihostvm.com

Do not put "www" if front of the address. This is a test site.


In Christ,
Pal Madden

[Janice]

There was one responder who related that "how come these kind of people always have some kind of website." First, let's talk about the word "always." It reveals this responder is speaking from their emotion rather than their level headedness. Do you truly think they "always" do this.

I had a much longer response planned but...ya know what...it ain't worth it. Not going to give anyone the satisfaction. I've found if I ignore something long enough, it will go away.

[Willow]

Hi Pal,

I appreciate your desire to help others, put your focus on God, and take the focus off of your own problems. That can be a good thing if it's not a denial mechanism.

My response to your earlier post was a desire to hear you talk to us in common english instead of talking to God with us as witnesses. I know you talk to God like that a lot, but I can't enter into that with you. Testimonials and excitement are great... but if you can put it in more common language, it would be helpful to me personally. Does this make sense? I mean... I love it that you told of your experience while going to the Y and how you felt God lift you up out of going in circles. It made your excitement make sense. I had to work hard to change my language from christianeze to regular english. I had to do this because of being forced into the workforce. It was good for me to re-evaluate my language. Now I can see why people looked at me like I was from mars when I was deep in the church.

Thanks :)
Amy

[Janice]

Hi Pal,

I appreciate your desire to help others, put your focus on God, and take the focus off of your own problems. That can be a good thing if it's not a denial mechanism.

My response to your earlier post was a desire to hear you talk to us in common english instead of talking to God with us as witnesses. I know you talk to God like that a lot, but I can't enter into that with you. Testimonials and excitement are great... but if you can put it in more common language, it would be helpful to me personally. Does this make sense? I mean... I love it that you told of your experience while going to the Y and how you felt God lift you up out of going in circles. It made your excitement make sense. I had to work hard to change my language from christianeze to regular english. I had to do this because of being forced into the workforce. It was good for me to re-evaluate my language. Now I can see why people looked at me like I was from mars when I was deep in the church.

Thanks :)
Amy




No Amy....MEN are from Mars, WOMEN are from Venus! :D :) :D

[4trustful one]

:( I want you to know how special that your posts were to me. I do believe that I understand some of the devastation that you must feel from some of the responses that you received at this forum. I'm so sorry. If you don't want to feel alone, please feel free to check my posts and the responses to them.
I saw your (to be) website! What a beautiful sight! I enjoyed so much the story of the man who inspired you with his Christ-like life. That must have been so hard for you when he passed away!!! Oh, my gosh.
Did you design your site? The way that you did the pictures on it was so impressive.
I hope that many are "touched" with the work that you have done. My husband and I might have joined you in your ministry, but we are so very busy now, with our own website.
God bless you, dear Pal. May your heart be filled with all of the tender, loving acceptance of our Jesus
4trustful one

[4trustful one]

I've found if I ignore something long enough, it will go away.[/QUOTE]


Yes, he will go away. I hope that he is not driven to suicide by the cruel words that he received on this forum.

[standing still]

Janice,

I know that when I lash out it only reveals the pain we carry and the healing we are not in possession of yet. So, my prayer is for you today.

You comment saying you will ignore me and I will go away doesn't hurt because I know where it comes from. I can easily see myself in you and your struggles. Sometimes when we ignore things it could be as a result of our own fear that we will find something out about ourselves that is hard to come to terms with, or that we don't want to face up to.

For 4trustful, I want you to thank you for your warm encouragement, and want you to know that if I do not return to this site it will not be because I have committed suicide. It will be because I found that I was not able to minister to others, or they minister to me.

However, as it stands now I believe that there are obviously many people who come here hurting, just as I, and therefore I will continue to check in and post comments. We are all in this together. I would rather have someone say something unkind and therefore cough up the evidence of the need for deeper healing than to go on holding it in.

Best,
Pal



I had a much longer response planned but...ya know what...it ain't worth it. Not going to give anyone the satisfaction. I've found if I ignore something long enough, it will go away.[/QUOTE]

[Voyager]

Pal,

You have to understand that the people here have had their lives shattered by the shout-hallelujiah-praise-Jesus style of religion. They have had their family members, friends, and their whole world snatched away from them. Many of them don't feel like praising Jesus anymore. So, when someone comes along and bursts onto the forum with a plea for a new ministry, a new website, marching orders from Jesus, shouts of praises, etc., you may not find too many of us ready to join the choir.

I've seen this same thing happen here many times. Someone like yourself will come onto the forum to try to "minister" to the wounded people here. They will try to preach Scripture verses to us, tell us we are "bitter" and "poisoned", attempt to drag us off to another website, etc. Then when a few of us reply with a not-so-enthused response, the poster takes it personal, gets mad, starts calling us names, and storms out of the forum leaving it an absolute wreck.

Please don't take the negative replies personal. Many of us came here in the same state you are in. After a while the wind just left our sails. We no longer sprint to the starting line when someone asks us to get involved in the praise and worship team.

:(

[Voyager]

My call to "praise" was not a Charismatic call. It was simply a reminder that it is ultimately through our right thinking in who we are in Christ that we ever climb out from under the dirty, residual effects as victims of abuse, whatever that may be...

My ministry to to give people an unhindered vision of discipling others. Discipling is helping each other to recognize who we are in Christ, and grow to the point where we can consistently live victorious lives. We also have to undersatnd that Christ was more abused than any one who ever lived. He had to love the abusers. That's not easy to do.

Untangling the deep seated bitterness we have towards our abusers is not an easy task. Many times it means going through our upbringing to understand how we ever grew into the kind of person that would allow ourselves to be abused as we were, or not being able to recognize it for what it was, and getting out from under it. I have found my patterns were set from my dysfunctional upbringing. (You can read about this on my site.)
Herein lies the problems people are having with your posts Pal. We are here in an anonymous forum trying to recover from spiritual abuse, similar to a 12-step recovery group such as A.A. No one in an A.A. meeting would take it very well if someone came into their meeting trying to "minister" or "disciple" them. That's because when we come into a recovery group like this, we all lay our titles at the door and become equals. No one here takes the role of "pastor" - and if they try to, the people here will reject and despise it. I've seen it happen dozens of times.

For example, think of the priest who joins a sexual addiction recovery group. Does he walk in with his collar on and Bible in hand trying to preach to the members of the group? They would probably reject him if they did. That is exactly what happens here when someone tries to come onto the forum and preach to us. Because most of us were abused by preachers, this type of behavior triggers us. It's like a rapist coming onto a rape abuse forum. Can you imagine how that would go over?

:cool:

[Patty]

Trigger for me!!......
[I]"My ministry to to give people an unhindered vision of discipling others. Discipling is helping each other to recognize who we are in Christ, and grow to the point where we can consistently live victorious lives. We also have to undersatnd that Christ was more abused than any one who ever lived. He had to love the abusers. That's not easy to do. "

Ohmigosh, I came out of a horrible abusive and oppresive "Discipling/shepherding" group. They too, decided that they would teach me how to be a good christian. Even the word "disciple" gives me the heebie-jeebies. Yes, I absolutely understand that there is a place for wise, mature Christians to help new christians in their faith, in fact it is seriously lacking in the church today. However, there is WAY too many who have no business telling others how to act, think and feel. They are using "Discipling" to get their own needs met. They are hurting and hurt others. They can be controlling and legalistic. Oh, I am on a roll and must stop typing.
Controlling "Discipleship" exists in many forms in all kinds of churches. Beware.

[Voyager]

My ministry to to give people an unhindered vision of discipling others. Discipling is helping each other to recognize who we are in Christ, and grow to the point where we can consistently live victorious lives. We also have to undersatnd that Christ was more abused than any one who ever lived. He had to love the abusers. That's not easy to do.
I have no intention to get into a doctrinal debate, but I wanted to address this. Jesus did not "love" the spiritual abusers of His day. He called them "white-washed tombs full of dead men's bones" and "sons of the devil". He condemned them to hell on numerous occasions. That doesn't sound like "love" to me.

Anyway, I am not going to get into this dialogue any further. It is obviously very triggering to many of us, so I think I will wait for the storm to calm before I set sail again.

:cool:

[standing still]

What triggers us are the only way we learn what it is about ourselves that we need to overcome.

I agree with your comments regarding what Jeus said. However, Jesus wasn't bitter, he was confrontational, adamantly so. And, yes, He certainly loved them just like He loves me.

Listen, I am a sinner. I have done some horrible things in my life. So did the Apostle Paul. Paul himself, when he was Saul, was the greatest spiritual abuser that ever lived. Yet, He was converted by the overpowering, undeniable love of Christ.

I know you're hurting. We are all hurting.

Having said that I also want to make this statement: You have permission to hate. What I mean is you have permission to get it all out. And, when you express yourself as you are and say you are getting too triggered, I say you need to let those triggers say to you, "I have permission to have the feelings I have." We do so in recognizing where those fellings are coming from, what caused them, and that we are not condemned because we do.

Just be certain that you get those pent up emotions and feelings out here, and not in the world where others who don't understand you pain and struggles will misunderstand you. I have done that, and it causes bigger problems.

Best,
Pal

I have no intention to get into a doctrinal debate, but I wanted to address this. Jesus did not "love" the spiritual abusers of His day. He called them "white-washed tombs full of dead men's bones" and "sons of the devil". He condemned them to hell on numerous occasions. That doesn't sound like "love" to me.

Anyway, I am not going to get into this dialogue any further. It is obviously very triggering to many of us, so I think I will wait for the storm to calm before I set sail again.

:cool:

[Voyager]

Having said that I also want to make this statement: You have permission to hate. Thank you for your permission. Is it okay if I sneeze also?

Just be certain that you get those pent up emotions and feelings out here, and not in the world where others who don't understand you pain and struggles will misunderstand you. Yes sir - I will comply immediately. Anything else pastor?

:rolleyes:

[Voyager]

Looks like the forum is heading for another meltdown. Run for cover!

:eek:

[standing still]

Yes, I did design the site. I'll be fine. Thanks for your encouragement.

Pal

:( I want you to know how special that your posts were to me. I do believe that I understand some of the devastation that you must feel from some of the responses that you received at this forum. I'm so sorry. If you don't want to feel alone, please feel free to check my posts and the responses to them.
I saw your (to be) website! What a beautiful sight! I enjoyed so much the story of the man who inspired you with his Christ-like life. That must have been so hard for you when he passed away!!! Oh, my gosh.
Did you design your site? The way that you did the pictures on it was so impressive.
I hope that many are "touched" with the work that you have done. My husband and I might have joined you in your ministry, but we are so very busy now, with our own website.
God bless you, dear Pal. May your heart be filled with all of the tender, loving acceptance of our Jesus
4trustful one

[Patty]

Voyager, I think you hit the nail on the head when you said compared this forum to any recovery group, where everyone here is in need and hurting and we are not interested in someone (who is just like us) coming in and proclaiming how they will "minister to us." That is way too much like our old churches: Those who minister and those who need ministering to. The "haves" and "have nots," the "in-crowd" and those wanting to be in the "in-crowd," those who are "healed" and those who are diagnosed as needing healing (deliverance, discipling, etc.) The leaders and the dumb sheep. And who, by the way, decides which category you fall in??? Right here, within this very decision is where abuse can start.
This forum, in and of itself IS the ministry.