I can not be your firend, since you are under the abusve teaching

[Minni]

I need an advice.
I have had this woman coming to my house. We used to work together and she had some issues at work with the leadership, and the leadership were quite abusive. It was on a Christian Private School, as well. She quit the school, and understood that this was not good for her. I helped her with that process. But then she said to me: I have never had such a close friend before. I was shocked. I was not her firend, I had just helped her with an issue.
Then she came with a birthday-gift for me even though I did NOT have a party. And then she invited me to her birthday-party and I said that I was not sure if I wanted to come, since all the church-people are going to be there. She played the "Free-card" at me, and I took the bait. "Are you really free, you would not have a problem being with them." I took the bait and went to that party, and it was not fun. I let myself manipulate into that whole setting again, because I wanted to belive or show her that I was free. What a fool I am! THen, she lives in the neighbourhood with her family, and is extreme religious and goes to a prosparity church. She comes often to my house, knoking on my door, and want to take a walk with me in the evenings. Now I am so tired of it, and I might have been "too nice". The thing is that this woman can not stop talking about prosperity-stuff and things like that. I can not be friends with people like that, since I am detoxing from that kind of teaching, and I know that she would not now how to shut her mouth. I have been thinking about being really honest with her, saying that: "You wanted to get my help to get out of the school, and you see the abuse, YET you want to be under the same kind of abusive church and leadership. Whatever you do is up to you, but since I am detoxing, I can not be with you anymore...." That is what I WANT to say, but I do not have the guts to say it. I am to much of a people-pleaser.

ANy suggestions? Love Minni

[ex-shep]

I need an advice.
I have had this woman coming to my house. We used to work together and she had some issues at work with the leadership, and the leadership were quite abusive. It was on a Christian Private School, as well. She quit the school, and understood that this was not good for her. I helped her with that process. But then she said to me: I have never had such a close friend before. I was shocked. I was not her friend, I had just helped her with an issue.
Then she came with a birthday-gift for me even though I did NOT have a party. And then she invited me to her birthday-party and I said that I was not sure if I wanted to come, since all the church-people are going to be there. She played the "Free-card" at me, and I took the bait. "Are you really free, you would not have a problem being with them." I took the bait and went to that party, and it was not fun. I let myself manipulate into that whole setting again, because I wanted to believe or show her that I was free. What a fool I am! Then, she lives in the neighbourhood with her family, and is extreme religious and goes to a prosperity church. She comes often to my house, knocking on my door, and want to take a walk with me in the evenings. Now I am so tired of it, and I might have been "too nice". The thing is that this woman can not stop talking about prosperity-stuff and things like that. I can not be friends with people like that, since I am detoxing from that kind of teaching, and I know that she would not now how to shut her mouth. I have been thinking about being really honest with her, saying that: "You wanted to get my help to get out of the school, and you see the abuse, YET you want to be under the same kind of abusive church and leadership. Whatever you do is up to you, but since I am detoxing, I can not be with you anymore...." That is what I WANT to say, but I do not have the guts to say it. I am to much of a people-pleaser.

ANy suggestions? Love Minni

You deserve to be treated with dignity and respect. There is nowhere in the bible that manipulation is countenanced. If your spiritual environment is not uplifting, leave it. My wife and I left an inner city church in a rough neighbourhood. We could not stand the daily stories of suffering. We were walking out of the services more depressed than we walked in.

Evangelical cult expert Walter Martin used to say if the cults come knocking, slam the door in their face. One has to have boundaries to protect themselves from psychological coercion and being pulled back into the abuse. I know I rude and hard nosed, but I had to be. If other church ladies did not understand it, that was their problem and I had better things to do with my time than make it mine. I had one of the church ladies bug me on the bus why I was not at the bible school anymore. The best response, "If you are that concerned about my salvation, you are just going to have to take it up with the Lord". I had one guy with a large bible in his lap wanting to strike up a conversation on the bus. I looked at him, "I see your bible, I know where this conversation is going, and I am stopping it right now".
To anybody recently out of their groups, I recommend call block, PO boxes, and the meanest attitude this side of the Susquehanna River.

With time, I was able to learn boundaries. Today I have friends who are bible school alum. There are some I would love to have coffee and might visit their church. There are others who are manipulative used car and bible salesman. The ones I like are the one who respect where I am in the Lord and accept me as I am. I will get off my soapbox, but I hope it helps in any case. :p

[Yvonne]

Run for the hills...



You don't sound like the people pleaser--the parasitic "friend" does. Why else would it be important to her to manipulate you to get you to do something you don't want to do? She picked a calculated area of vulnerability--ooh! Lemme at 'er :mad:

It sounds like she used manipulation--for me, that is a no-no. Usually I put an end to those relationships quickly and without providing a great deal of information as to why. I would be concerned that any detail I give would get turned back on me in the future--Why? Been there, done that a million times :rolleyes:

The best book I have ever read on codependent relationships is "Please Don't Say You Need Me" by Jan Silvious. I'm just putting it out there because it was a good resource for pinpointing people early who were dangerous to me (ie. codependent personalities).

[Anna Marta]

Run for the hills...
You don't sound like the people pleaser--the parasitic "friend" does.

Yvonne, you've given me something to think about regarding people pleasing and SA. I know this is not a new thought, but it is finally jelling in my head. Those who have the people pleasing personality trait may very well do the best in cult-like churches, that is until .... :(

Minni, maybe she has escaped a difficult work situation and has been open enough to "hear" what you have shared. However, it appears that she is no where near being able to walk away from the religious social scene. For those of us in Norway, there is very little choice when it comes to walking away from this kind of teaching; it can mean the loss of our complete social network and feel very isolating. A people pleaser would find this intolerable unless she/he was at the end of their rope, and she is obviously not yet at that point.

Whatever you decide to do, it will involve a measure of your having to endure some kind of discomfort. It seems to me you are looking for permission to break with her, which all of us are encouraging you to do and that you are now at the point of evaluating for yourself if it is worth it or not to take on the difficult task of actually doing it.

Good luck and let us know how it goes.
Love
AM

[Jerry]

Run for the hills...

Dear Minni,,,,
A well constructed sentence by Yvonne,,,,,,,,,,,,,,don't ya think???

[luttrell03]

She played the "Free-card" at me, and I took the bait. "Are you really free, you would not have a problem being with them." I took the bait and went to that party, and it was not fun. I let myself manipulate into that whole setting again, because I wanted to belive or show her that I was free.

I know the free card thing. That card has put so much unecessary guilt on me in the past year. We've been often told, if you're truly healed, if you're truly over it, if you've truly forgiven then you can come back, be with the old crowd in the same old patterns..... i.e.we know what you need. Come on, don't be exclusive weirdos, be like us.

I personally believe that's manipulation and shaming, not God's heart. I think that true unconditional love gives a person space to evaluate, decide, choose a way out. For example, God doesn't make a person love him, because then it wouldn't be unconditional love at all, but coerced. God honors the free will that He has instilled in man, though He has invited each man to a relationship.

So, I don't think it's God's heart to be coerced, especially when red flags are going up inside. Suggesting out of love is one thing, but trying to coerce by using guilt, manipulation is another. This is just one of my personal pet-peaves I guess considering my situation.

Like AM I can understand that it's a very difficult stage in leaving the social structure of a group, especially if it's based on codependency and no healthy lines drawn. It's like becoming tangled up in a Kelp forrest off the California coast.
But isn't it funny, at least in my situation, it seems like often that they want to draw you back to some 'thing', a social structure, a comodity, a teaching but rarely is there talk about a relationship with God.?

For example. My wife has obviously gotten closer to God since leaving our former church, although she has really suffered from our church experience. It's obvious, you can see it in her life that she's was drawn closer to God. Yet, after we left, certain people wouldn't focus on that and say to my wife, wow great, we're soo happy for you. Instead they stressed that, no, you need the group, connected with the 'vision' or a place, or social structure. I was just at the beginning wondering, why is nobody just happy for her in that sense, if she's happy?
Anyways Minni, I think you caught on to those warning signs.

[Minni]

One thing I have realized though, is that whenever people use the "Free-card" I am about to be manipulated and be aware that I am not going to let that "card" force me to do anything I do not want to do. As I said on the Moneky Traps thing: I took the bait, danced the monkey dance, and got trapped, actually in my own need of valdiate myself and show myself as free. I think I know why this is som important. Because the word "free" goes back to the abusive teaching. Somethings triggers me there.
In the toxic faith you learned that freedom was like that: you are free, and you NEED to prove it. I DO NOT NEED TO PROVE ANYTHING FOR ANYONE, BUT WHY DO I STILL KEEP FALLING IN THAT DAMN TRAP???? I guess that this is an issue I need to think over. And is it a big deal if we are free or not? Freedom is the freedom of choosing what kind of people you want to hang out with and what you want to do with your life, it is not about prooving anything.

Thanks for all the good thoughts here! Love Minni

[Minni]

[QUOTE=Yvonne;68259]
It sounds like she used manipulation--for me, that is a no-no. Usually I put an end to those relationships quickly and without providing a great deal of information as to why. QUOTE]

Yes she was manipulating me, and I bought it. I took the bait because she used the "Free-card". You are so right, I do not need that kind of "friends" right now, even though she might never intend to manipulate me, I see that the way they think, makes me to experience some of the abuse all over again,
Love Minni

[Anna Marta]

And is it a big deal if we are free or not? Freedom is the freedom of choosing what kind of people you want to hang out with and what you want to do with your life, it is not about prooving anything.
Minni

What a good thought! I like that.
AM

[ex-shep]

One thing I have realized though, is that whenever people use the "Free-card" I am about to be manipulated and be aware that I am not going to let that "card" force me to do anything I do not want to do. As I said on the Moneky Traps thing: I took the bait, danced the monkey dance, and got trapped, actually in my own need of valdiate myself and show myself as free. I think I know why this is som important. Because the word "free" goes back to the abusive teaching. Somethings triggers me there.
In the toxic faith you learned that freedom was like that: you are free, and you NEED to prove it. I DO NOT NEED TO PROVE ANYTHING FOR ANYONE, BUT WHY DO I STILL KEEP FALLING IN THAT DAMN TRAP???? I guess that this is an issue I need to think over. And is it a big deal if we are free or not? Freedom is the freedom of choosing what kind of people you want to hang out with and what you want to do with your life, it is not about prooving anything.

Thanks for all the good thoughts here! Love Minni

I agree with Anna Marta. Freedom is choosing the friends I want. Give that poster a latte.

[Anna Marta]

Ex Shep,

I finally tasted a Latté. It was GREAT! I had no idea a whole new world. Gotta get me a milk frother thing. :D:D:D:D:D

[Reg]

Great advice from the folks here.

One more thing Minni, here's a great book I read that help sort things out for me in this area......

Safe People: How to Find Relationships That Are Good for You and Avoid Those That Aren't

Cloud and Townsend raise a valuable point in that people tend to look for people to be in relationship with who are "spiritual," "godly, "ambitious," "fund to be with," and so on, and yet, these are not the issues that cause relationships to break apart. Relationships break apart because one partner doesn't listen to the other; because of perfectionist tendencies; because of emotional distance; because of controlling tendencies; for promises that are made but not followed through; from condemnation, judgment, and anger; and most of all, because of a lack of or breakdown in trust......
http://www.amazon.com/Safe-People-Relationships-Avoid-Those/dp/0310210844

[Minni]

Thank you. I will buy that book!! I have other books by them and I like what they say. But I did it!!! This woman kept sending me sms's and finally I had it. Being a people-pleaser I would never have dreamed about doing what I was about to do. But I sent her an sms back saying: "Thanks for inviting me but I need to be honest with you. I do not know how to say this in a nice way. I need a distance to people who are in a not healthy church-miljue with that kind of teaching that I am being detoxing from. It has nothing to do with you as a person, but when we talk together, you are reflecting those kind of toughts that I am detoxing from, so it is not personally against you. I need to put some boundaries about what kind of people I want to be with and if I want to go togheter with people that are in that kind of places. I hope you understand." She sent me this back: " I do not understand quite, but hope that you eventually find out that you can be with people like us and others in my church in the future." Then I felt that she was using the FREE-card again....IF you are free you can be with us later. I decided to not play that game anymore, so I did not answer exactly about that I said: I just hope you understand that it is not about me not likeing you. It is more like that that the more I study about healthy faith, ther more I get a disgust or a deistaste for that kind of preaching that you are under. You saw what needed to be done in the Christian abusive school you worked in, but still you do not take distance from the preaching that support that kind of thinking, and that doubleness is a red flag for me. I know that you are goint to the Word of Life-prosparity coferance this summer, a preaching that I do take sistance from and people I know has a tendency to be more exposed to mindcontroll and suggestion in those kind of places. I can take a walk with you occationaly but we then should avvoid talking about relgion if we can. Have a good summer and take care." SHe wrote back. "Thanks the same." I do not know why I said that I could go for a walk with her occationaly, but hopefully I made it so uncomfrable for her that she do not want to be with me. At least, if she want, she knows what I expect and what I think" But why would I feel bad after sending her these sms's. I put boundaries and finally I did the right thing for me. But I feel bad, and I got this physcal reaction, feeling sick and aching in my tummy?

ANd did I really do the right thing? For me it was a relief to finally say what I think, I have never been able to that before. Because I hate confrontations. Let me know what you think. Love Minni

[luttrell03]

you are reflecting those kind of toughts that I am detoxing from, so it is not personally against you.

Can relate Minni. There is a certain thought life; mentality that goes along with it and you just have to walk away from it. The group doesn't recognize it nor can they understand where you're coming from. It's soo deeply programmed and automatic. You can hear it in the group language.
Since you mentioned detoxing, the same goes with religious addiction. When someone tries to detox from drugs and break away from the old group, often their old friends don't understand and try to get them to come back. Same here.

I think it was a very honest and heartful thing that you told her the truth and were sensitive to her as you shared your present needs.
I think you were also right in seeing that when the thoughts are saturated with the group, culture and language that they just really don't understand. So, you just have to make the right decision for yourself. But, I think you did it with integrity.
Honesty, is just saying whatever is on your heart, whatever it is. But integrity is considering the other person when you to tell the truth about something. I think you did the right thing.

[ex-shep]

Ex Shep,

I finally tasted a Latté. It was GREAT! I had no idea a whole new world. Gotta get me a milk frother thing. :D:D:D:D:D

Thanks for making my day.

[Minni]

Honesty, is just saying whatever is on your heart, whatever it is. But integrity is considering the other person when you to tell the truth about something. I think you did the right thing.
This was a really truthful statement. It is so good for me to have you guys here that understand, and that also would have been honest with me if I did not act in a nice way to her. I kind of backed off in the end, saying that we still can take a walk occationally IF we can keep our mouth quiet when it comes to religion. This woman never hurt me, but you are so right. WHen you are deotxing you need distance! Like the drug-addict needs distance from drugs.
ANd like I said before: Freedom is the freedom of choosing what kind of people you want to hang out with and what you want to do with your life, it is not about prooving anything. But I guess that she will never take a walk with me again, after me being honest with her. I really needed to hear what you said. You are truly speaking wisdom to my heart. Thank you so much.

[luttrell03]

This was a really truthful statement. It is so good for me to have you guys here that understand, and that also would have been honest with me if I did not act in a nice way to her. I kind of backed off in the end, saying that we still can take a walk occationally IF we can keep our mouth quiet when it comes to religion. This woman never hurt me, but you are so right. WHen you are deotxing you need distance! Like the drug-addict needs distance from drugs.
ANd like I said before: Freedom is the freedom of choosing what kind of people you want to hang out with and what you want to do with your life, it is not about prooving anything. But I guess that she will never take a walk with me again, after me being honest with her. I really needed to hear what you said. You are truly speaking wisdom to my heart. Thank you so much.

Glad we could encourage each other.:)

[Jerry]

But I feel bad, and I got this physcal reaction, feeling sick and aching in my tummy?

ANd did I really do the right thing? For me it was a relief to finally say what I think, I have never been able to that before. Because I hate confrontations. Let me know what you think. Love Minni

Why the sick aching feeling ??? Because you are a kind loving person and this didn't feel kind and loving.I would remind you that a friendship based in false assumptions is not kind or loving ;) You did the right thing.....

Love Jerry

[hornblower]

If there is one thing I literally cannot abide its that teaching of prosperity. Down here, I dont know if its the same everywhere, but here its also 'confess it and you have it' or "name it and claim it!"
I alos lump in the 'negative positive thinking thing' into that category since I was brought up under that abusive teaching scenario with my own mother.
Im not asking anyone to see it my way believe me Im not we all have our things from our own life experiences. Im trying to see that about other people. It helps me ......some.......... deal with others but..........in the end its got be be about me and my relationship with God and myself, my own conscience, whats really right and whats wrong.
I cannot judge other people thats God business, He loves them, but me? Im on my own island here and I personally cannot take some of the bs of these know it all people. I work with one of them and she is driving me nuts at times.

HGeres the way I look at these delimnas now. No books just me and my lame brain.
We can only be responsible for the way we feel and what we think and what we do with our day to day lives.
Ive left religion all together but it doesnt matter because this nitemare is everywhere. Everybody has an opinion about everything. What are we going to do, leave the planet? Believe me Id like too.
You know what I think about this person, she really does like you because you are different and she wants what you have gotten from being SA'd.
Nothing you can do about that its her problem.......... liking you.

I think you handled it the best way you can and its great. Every little tiny baby step we take to get back our lives is good for us, thats what I say but at the same time.......we can never really be free anywhere except when we are alone in our little rooms and screaming out to the only one that loves us thats our God.

This nut I work with is afraid to even say shes not feeling well or it will attack her...........oh Lord please deliver us from all of this nonsense!

She is trying to like me and Im trying to like her and its very hard to do we have such a different experience.

Ive given up trying to love people. I just cannot do it and theres no use in saying I am loving them when Im not. So now I simply go to God with the whole thing and let Him have it, or try to, that is. He loves them this I know and thats good that He understands them and knows what they need and want and I know I am not God I cannot do it. I can be nice up to a point and then I need to get away from them.

Youve done the right thing here. Its sad though isnt it that we cant have our little fairy tale of happily ever after and all of us being free and loving each other???????? Its all bologna!

You know what I think? I think God is trying to get it through to us that He alone is going to make His church and thats that! The sooner we give up the better.
By the way this is just my two cents on this. Im a very codependent person and Ill tell you why. I want and need the love of other human beings. I was made to be loved by other people and other people were made to be loved too. That makes me codependent does it not because I am saying I have this dire need in my life. I really really do.

Because I am this way I end up getting hurt because people are so damnably mean! So Ok now Im supposed to be like sick or something because Im so hurt well.................NOT!

Lately Ive been realising its words that hurt. We are all so misunderstood. Words get in the way of our trying to communcate.

This lady is simply talking and talking, why is she talking so much?
Shes hurting thats all..........shes scared thats all........shes lonely.
Ill bet you she says all of that stuff to feel some power over her situations........why?...........because these people feel powerless and guess what? They are powerless.

Im not afraid at times anyway to be powerless any more. 'In my weakness His strength is manifested.' I dont have to be strong! I can be myself and be weak its ok for me to be who I am, God still takes care of me, its His pleasure to do it for me.

Its a shame that words get in the way but they always do. Its our heart that God sees and cares about.

The way I see it now we here we are the new preachers. We preach the hopefully real true gospel.

The gospel of come, be who you are, and tell it like it is, you are still loved here.

Wow........how much I have always longed to hear that from any pulpit and I did too, but those preachers were fired right away...........its not difficult for anyone, its too easy for them and they always want it so hard.

Oh well.........its not my world anyway...........its Gods place here to make happen whatever is going to happen. Im just here for the ride.

My motto..........I love people that love me.........love being the freedom to be myself.

[Carmen]

Hi Minni,

Just a bit of advice from experience. Don't let that woman engage you in conversations to have you explain more of why you don't want to spend time with her or those in that church. I have a bad habit of wanting to explain things and volunteering too much information that only makes things worse. The best thing is to avoid contact with her if you have a weakness of talking or explaining things. Keep speech to polite nothings like, "hello...good bye." Even a "how are you" would be too much since it invites an answer. If she asks how you are it would be best to give the standard, "fine" and that's it. If even that is too dangerous for you then risk being blunt and ignore her completely. I know this is hard, I usually try to at least be polite, but this has gotten me into problems because I might get drawn into a conversation. Sometimes vendors count on people being polite and aim their speech to latch onto polite people.

Do everything you can to avoid being drawn into conversations. Do you know how vendors try to get you to stop at their booths by trying to engage you in conversation? Cult members do the same thing because they are always advertising for their cults.

[luttrell03]

Hi Minni,

Just a bit of advice from experience. Don't let that woman engage you in conversations to have you explain more of why you don't want to spend time with her or those in that church. I have a bad habit of wanting to explain things and volunteering too much information that only makes things worse. The best thing is to avoid contact with her if you have a weakness of talking or explaining things. Keep speech to polite nothings like, "hello...good bye." Even a "how are you" would be too much since it invites an answer. If she asks how you are it would be best to give the standard, "fine" and that's it. If even that is too dangerous for you then risk being blunt and ignore her completely. I know this is hard, I usually try to at least be polite, but this has gotten me into problems because I might get drawn into a conversation. Sometimes vendors count on people being polite and aim their speech to latch onto polite people.

Do everything you can to avoid being drawn into conversations. Do you know how vendors try to get you to stop at their booths by trying to engage you in conversation? Cult members do the same thing because they are always advertising for their cults.

I have to agree with Carmen. When we've been hurt we desire to be understood and for someone to hear our story. I realized awhile ago though that most are not interested in my story, or desire to understand what happened to me and my family, etc..; especially those still indoctrinated. THey don't want to understand you or hear your story. They want to tell you what to do, what you need, how to be spiritual,,want to 'save' you from yourself. There'll always be someone who wants to control and tell you how to live if you allow them.

[Minni]

Thank you all of you for responding to this thread. I am reading it over and over, and let it sink in.

Yes, the need of explaining ourselves is nothing but control. When we feel the need of explain oruselves, we are being controlled.

The prosparity teaching is a dangerous teaching. I have some friends that have been afraid of confessing the negative things beause it will haunt them. It is sad.

When it omes to ending this friendship, and me feeling bad about it, you are abselutely right: I have been thought that a good Christian are doormats and should love and be friends with everybody. I remember as a youth, I took care of those that no one else liked, since that was the right thing to do, and the whole WWJD-thing was a manipulative tools to do religious performane.

I guess, that it would not be that of a problem if that woman shows up on my door now, because, now she at least know what I expect, no relgious talk. BUT in HER mind she never talk relgious, I guess that is part of the deception.

There is a fine balance between explaining yourself and be polite enough to tell her the truth WITH intergrity, meaning coonsidering her feelings as well. I am not good at this. I end up saying a lot more then I need to.
But now I have at least done it, and I have not heard from this woman since!

[Minni]

I have to agree with Carmen. When we've been hurt we desire to be understood and for someone to hear our story. I realized awhile ago though that most are not interested in my story, or desire to understand what happened to me and my family, etc..; especially those still indoctrinated. THey don't want to understand you or hear your story. They want to tell you what to do, what you need, how to be spiritual,,want to 'save' you from yourself. There'll always be someone who wants to control and tell you how to live if you allow them.

That is so true. They really are not interested. They are interested in us as long as we can give them something or be a "blessing" to their churh. Some of them would not leace me alone, invited us for free-dinner, and a lot of fun things. It was just a bait. Luckily I said no to come to their fany dinners and stuff, beause I knew there would be a hook, they wanted something from me, my resources.
First I replied on sms, polite and said no thank you
When I stopped replying I think they got it. And then it revealed itself: They did not care about me or my story at all.

[luttrell03]

That is so true. They really are not interested. They are interested in us as long as we can give them something or be a "blessing" to their churh. Some of them would not leace me alone, invited us for free-dinner, and a lot of fun things. It was just a bait. Luckily I said no to come to their fany dinners and stuff, beause I knew there would be a hook, they wanted something from me, my resources.
First I replied on sms, polite and said no thank you
When I stopped replying I think they got it. And then it revealed itself: They did not care about me or my story at all.

Exactly. The true motive reveals itself with time as these people are not allowed to get their way in your life. Because their lives revolve around a ministry or a teacher,etc, and they can't function in life without it, someone not interested in that anymore is practically seen as 'lost'. 'How can you live without this 'thing'? They can't comprehend it. That's how intoxicating it all is.
But, since the influence is soo strong and 'bewitching' you have to sometimes take extreme, loving measures to cut away from it. As in the case with cancer, you have to cut it away. Same goes sometimes in the spiritual/emotional realm.
That is part of the healing though, when you're allowed to see the real motives behind people's pleas to return. So often it's about making a shrine out of 'something', not about encouraging someone toward a genuine, loving relationship with God.

[Minni]

Exactly. The true motive reveals itself with time as these people are not allowed to get their way in your life. Because their lives revolve around a ministry or a teacher,etc, and they can't function in life without it, someone not interested in that anymore is practically seen as 'lost'. 'How can you live without this 'thing'? They can't comprehend it. That's how intoxicating it all is.
But, since the influence is soo strong and 'bewitching' you have to sometimes take extreme, loving measures to cut away from it. As in the case with cancer, you have to cut it away. Same goes sometimes in the spiritual/emotional realm.
That is part of the healing though, when you're allowed to see the real motives behind people's pleas to return. So often it's about making a shrine out of 'something', not about encouraging someone toward a genuine, loving relationship with God.

I agree! I remember that I was like that too when I was in their system. What I was thinking would have been fun though, is to say yes and do all the fun things, the dinners for free, and eventually turn they down when they finally asked: "Oh, I did not think this was a hook to get me to do something in your church." But back then I was not strong enough to say or even be with them.

Now I do not want to be with them. I remember once when my ex-pastor from this abusive church called me saying: "You can not just do as you please. We are a family in this church, a family of God, and as you know, families do take care of each others. There are some duties in every familiy. By not taking responsibility to your duty, you are hurting the family of God. We all give and take. You can not just recieve." This is what he said when we had been away for church for about a year, because we found it toxic. Then he said: "You have got three days, to get your butt into my office, find yourself a ministry, because you can not do nothing, or I would like your dismissal very soon. Church is like a marriage." THen I said to him that I have another view of church then he had. He replied: My view is based on the Bible.

I finally had it. I never went into his office, and I did not resign or give my dismissal before half a year later. I was very clear that this pastor should not decide wheter or not I should be a member of not of his church.

When I met the elders, telling them everything, they just said: "Well, we all do mistakes. You just have to forgive him. He is not perfect, like you are not perfect."

Then I realized, they only wanted me for my talents.
It makes me angry just to write about it, and this is three years ago now!

[luttrell03]

"You have got three days, to get your butt into my office, find yourself a ministry, because you can not do nothing, or I would like your dismissal very soon. Church is like a marriage." THen I said to him that I have another view of church then he had. He replied: My view is based on the Bible.

Wow, pretty creepy. Wonder where it says we're married to the church in the Bible?? I think perhaps he's married to church, to his vision and the admiration he gets as a result and expects everybody to follow suit. Again, heart motives exposed,,,yiiikes. As far as 'duties' go, I think it says in Romans not to owe anyone anything except to love one another.

When I met the elders, telling them everything, they just said: "Well, we all do mistakes. You just have to forgive him. He is not perfect, like you are not perfect."

Boy, you know, that, 'nobody's perfect' statement tends to make my skin crawl. To me it's been just a jelly-spined, tail between the legs, cop-out phrase.
It's funny that you were held accountable (i.e. manipulated/threatened) to fulfill your 'duty' by the leader, yet the elders won't hold their supreme leader accountable nor responsible. Their 'duty' which I thought was 'in the bible' is to protect the flock, if need be, even from a weirdo leader. But, of course, in a toxic environment that's exactly the opposite case since everyone's 'married' to the vision and the pastor's likes and wishes. I would personally say, Yeeaah, they're right!! He's not perfect, he is dangerous!
Glad you could get out of that place. That's worth a smile:)

[Minni]

:DThanks Lutrell03! I am so glad that I got out of there!
I am actually writing a book about my experience in my own language, Norwegian. I am using soures from American books too, sine here are no books like this in Norway.

BUT I have to say, when I am in the city, and I think I see that pastor, I turn around in a different direction. That bothers me. Why do I have to buzz off? Can''t I just face him?

[luttrell03]

:DThanks Lutrell03! I am so glad that I got out of there!
I am actually writing a book about my experience in my own language, Norwegian. I am using soures from American books too, sine here are no books like this in Norway.

BUT I have to say, when I am in the city, and I think I see that pastor, I turn around in a different direction. That bothers me. Why do I have to buzz off? Can''t I just face him?

Hi. I understand. You probably do an about face because the man has shown himself to you as untrusting, insensitive, manipulative and hurtful in your presence. You fear that he'll say the same mean, self-indulgent rediculous things he said to you the last time you talked, which I wouldn't put it past him. He did not treat you with respect as a child of God but only wanted you to fulfill your duty to produce something religious or whatever for his church.
WE were just designed to be attracted to trusting environments and be repulsed and flee from dangerous environments. What you have described sounds like a dangerous person who's able play with the mind and to unload a lot of unreal guilt on a person. I think you are just wanting to keep your distance from someone like that. Not always, but I think often it does no good to have a face off with such a controlling personality. They are usually poised to do whatever they must (lie, cheat,emotionally kill, manipulate) to protect their kingdoms and keep their followers blindly and obediently following. They will manipulate and try to make you look like the guilty one, even in a small talk conversation. There is a godly principle of fleeing in time of danger. It's not always a cowardly act but a necessary thing in a dangerous situation. I don't blame you for wanting to avoid him. By the way, congrats on the book. That's a very needed idea and a very courageous one. I hope you can get much feedback and confirmation for your work here.

[analyzer]

Just a bit of advice from experience. Don't let that woman engage you in conversations to have you explain more of why you don't want to spend time with her or those in that church. I have a bad habit of wanting to explain things and volunteering too much information that only makes things worse. The best thing is to avoid contact with her if you have a weakness of talking or explaining things. Keep speech to polite nothings like, "hello...good bye." Even a "how are you" would be too much since it invites an answer. If she asks how you are it would be best to give the standard, "fine" and that's it. If even that is too dangerous for you then risk being blunt and ignore her completely. I know this is hard, I usually try to at least be polite, but this has gotten me into problems because I might get drawn into a conversation. Sometimes vendors count on people being polite and aim their speech to latch onto polite people.
brilliant! This advice may save me from a lot of trouble in the future.

Yes, the need of explaining ourselves is nothing but control. When we feel the need of explain ourselves, we are being controlled.

brilliant!

The desire to explain things is a wonderful blessing but - more often than not - is taken advantage of. It was the godly desire to open ourselves up that has gotten us into trouble in the first place.

Often abusive leaders exhibit sociopathic tendencies, they start out to conquer the masses with their charisma, which reminds me of the white horse in Revelation ch 6. There is a very interesting Article about the character traits of a sociopath (http://www.youmeworks.com/sociopaths.html).

The article is kind of saying the same thing that Carmen suggested. I'll cite from the article:

Given all that, there is only one solution for dealing with a sociopath: Get him or her completely out of your life for good. This seems radical, and of course, you want to be fairly sure your diagnosis is correct, but you need to protect yourself from the drain on your time, attention, money, and good attitude. Healing or helping a sociopath is a pointless waste of your life. That is not your mission. It's not your responsibility. You have your own goals and your own life, and those are your responsibility.

The rationale: define things but be careful to whom you want to explain things.

[Minni]

Hi. I understand. You probably do an about face because the man has shown himself to you as untrusting, insensitive, manipulative and hurtful in your presence. You fear that he'll say the same mean, self-indulgent rediculous things he said to you the last time you talked, which I wouldn't put it past him. He did not treat you with respect as a child of God but only wanted you to fulfill your duty to produce something religious or whatever for his church.
WE were just designed to be attracted to trusting environments and be repulsed and flee from dangerous environments. What you have described sounds like a dangerous person who's able play with the mind and to unload a lot of unreal guilt on a person. I think you are just wanting to keep your distance from someone like that. Not always, but I think often it does no good to have a face off with such a controlling personality. They are usually poised to do whatever they must (lie, cheat,emotionally kill, manipulate) to protect their kingdoms and keep their followers blindly and obediently following. They will manipulate and try to make you look like the guilty one, even in a small talk conversation. There is a godly principle of fleeing in time of danger. It's not always a cowardly act but a necessary thing in a dangerous situation. I don't blame you for wanting to avoid him. By the way, congrats on the book. That's a very needed idea and a very courageous one. I hope you can get much feedback and confirmation for your work here.
Thank you. I always thought that I was a coward for fleeing and avvoiding him. Now I do see, after what you wrote, that I fleeing from persons like that, has nothing to do about being free or a coward. You just need to do what you need to do to get on with your life.