Monkey traps/contains scripture references

[ex-shep]

Our Sunday school pastor was on vacation. One of our members filled with a teaching on monkey traps. How the trap works is the monkey reaches down a narrow neck jug for a treat. The only thing is that he fails to let go of the tempting treat. The poacher simply walks off with him jug, treat, and all. There are several scripture citations. For me the lack of faith of Sarah's wife and the bit with the Golden calf come to mind. Here are places where one instead of trusting God, takes matters into his own hands. Needless to say the results have a tendency to backfire.

Our former groups were notorious from trying to create the right atmosphere for salvation or to move the group a certain direction. This does beg the question of whatever happened to praying, trusting the Lord and walking in faith. [If new members are triggered, feel free to pass on the thread] The pentecostal bible school services had a predictable way to create an atmosphere that the "Lord is in this place". The trap was we got hooked on the worship to the sacrifice sound biblical exegesis.

I and the "Community" had a field day chasing a coed across the Midwest State campus trying to recruit her. One day we faked a convesation on the gospel with in ear shot. Needless say the quixotic farce backfired big time. Monica went back to her and blew up at another member who was innocently taking a late night shower. I also realized there were incidents where the timing was so precise that even Monica had to wonder if God were real. The monkey trap was not leaving room for the room for the Lord to work. Monica and I did talk about the incident years later. I did make ammends to her and regretted any grief. We did have a brief but pleasant acquaintance. I have not heard from her in years.

I am keenly aware of the monkey traps in my life. When I am able to let go and let God, things are noticeably smooth. It is hard to get there sometimes, but worth the work. It is not worth holding on to the treat.

[Anna Marta]

I got it! Been trapped too once or twice :(

AM

[luttrell03]

Could another monkey trap be when the controlling leader gains influence by giving his most loyal followers/supporters a 'certain' degree of his influence, pats on the back, a badge, (puppet) leadership over ministries,... giving them positions in the higher pecking oder. To me this is the core machinery of a codependent relationship.
The condition for getting a position is that they show absolute loyalty, also called coming under the "vision".

This is what happened to me on one side and I think happens quite often. Sometimes when I see newer people recruited by the leader, given degrees of "delegated authority" and all excited and on fire because they're being "used" (and you do get used);brought closer to the echelons ( me no can spell) of leadership,, something inside bothers me a bit. Maybe it's just me thinking too negatively and I hope I'm wrong but I think, ...man, they don't see it. I hope they don't get hurt like soo many others since and after me. But, sad to say I have seen a few times now people go in excited and hopeful and come out the other side burned.

[Anna Marta]

Could another monkey trap be when the controlling leader gains influence by giving his most loyal followers/supporters a 'certain' degree of his influence, pats on the back, a badge, (puppet) leadership over ministries,... giving them positions in the higher pecking oder. To me this is the core machinery of a codependent relationship.
The condition for getting a position is that they show absolute loyalty, also called coming under the "vision".

This is what happened to me on one side and I think happens quite often. Sometimes when I see newer people recruited by the leader, given degrees of "delegated authority" and all excited and on fire because they're being "used" (and you do get used);brought closer to the echelons ( me no can spell) of leadership,, something inside bothers me a bit. Maybe it's just me thinking too negatively and I hope I'm wrong but I think, ...man, they don't see it. I hope they don't get hurt like soo many others since and after me. But, sad to say I have seen a few times now people go in excited and hopeful and come out the other side burned.

BANG!

I am sitting here knowing - this was me!

It is downright embarressing to admit how good it felt to be noticed, courted, given a degree of just enough of "something" to blindly trust and nearly wag my tail like a dog hoping for more from the BIG GUY.
To build on the dog metahpor, I eventually put my tail between my legs, lowered my head and slinked off after finally instinctively understanding that this was not a good master. Like that poor animal I curled up, whined and licked my wounds careful not to allow another dangerous "human pastor/leader type person" to come too near me.

A young man told me later that he had the same thoughts about me as you express Luttrell. He knew I was in for a fall because he had "been there" but was afraid I wasn't ready to hear it. Maybe I wasn't?

After reading some of the recent posts, I realize that there is a part of me that misses and yearns for a "church-like community." I also realize that I am not willing to extend my boundary lines until I am absolutely certain it is God who is building that which appeals to me.

As my sainted husband (as Janice refers to him) so wisely said, "I am not going to trust those guys again unless God Himself tells me it's okay!"

For right now, I following the viking :D

[luttrell03]

BANG!

I am sitting here knowing - this was me!

It is downright embarressing to admit how good it felt to be noticed, courted, given a degree of just enough of "something" to blindly trust and nearly wag my tail like a dog hoping for more from the BIG GUY.
To build on the dog metahpor, I eventually put my tail between my legs, lowered my head and slinked off after finally instinctively understanding that this was not a good master. Like that poor animal I curled up, whined and licked my wounds careful not to allow another dangerous "human pastor/leader type person" to come too near me.

A young man told me later that he had the same thoughts about me as you express Luttrell. He knew I was in for a fall because he had "been there" but was afraid I wasn't ready to hear it. Maybe I wasn't?

After reading some of the recent posts, I realize that there is a part of me that misses and yearns for a "church-like community." I also realize that I am not willing to extend my boundary lines until I am absolutely certain it is God who is building that which appeals to me.

As my sainted husband (as Janice refers to him) so wisely said, "I am not going to trust those guys again unless God Himself tells me it's okay!"

For right now, I following the viking :D


There were people in my life and I'm sure also watching from the perimeters that probably saw this ol' monkey grabbing for the cooky and the outcome that would ensue. My family members did warn me that I was playing into the leader's game too much but you guessed it, I didn't listen. The cooky was just too tantalizing I guess, or something.

I guess this is how it seems to work in a lot of "no talk" environments. Since there is for the most part no honest open discussion and self analization and each is somehow trained to blindly follow the position of a leader, every individual it seems is almost bound to learn the monkey trap lesson on their own. It's only after the fact that you realize that there were more before you, and there could be just as many after you.

[dougjb]

Could another monkey trap be when the controlling leader gains influence by giving his most loyal followers/supporters a 'certain' degree of his influence, pats on the back, a badge, (puppet) leadership over ministries,... giving them positions in the higher pecking oder. To me this is the core machinery of a codependent relationship.
The condition for getting a position is that they show absolute loyalty, also called coming under the "vision".

This is what happened to me on one side and I think happens quite often. Sometimes when I see newer people recruited by the leader, given degrees of "delegated authority" and all excited and on fire because they're being "used" (and you do get used);brought closer to the echelons ( me no can spell) of leadership,, something inside bothers me a bit. Maybe it's just me thinking too negatively and I hope I'm wrong but I think, ...man, they don't see it. I hope they don't get hurt like soo many others since and after me. But, sad to say I have seen a few times now people go in excited and hopeful and come out the other side burned.

Hi luttrell,
I can relate to the form of monkey trap you are talking about. When I see people getting all "buttered up" with praises, pats on the back, and the sort I start getting a bit suspicious about motives. I do not think your are wrong about your assessment. These people, in my opinion, are being used by leaders to insert "puppet leaders" who will provide unquestioned obedience to the one who put them in power. Of course, the one who put them in power also has the power to remove them from power. Just more exploitation.

dougjb
some food for thought

[analyzer]

Of course, the one who put them in power also has the power to remove them from power.

Out of our leader's own mouth I quote:
"power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely."

Yes-men get "conditional" power, they are replaced by the "CEO" at his will.

So I would continue:
"Conditinal power corrupts conditionally." That is: as long as you are holding on to it.
IF you see it for what it is, you are free to walk away from the (corporate) corruption.

[luttrell03]

Out of our leader's own mouth I quote:
"power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely."

Yes-men get "conditional" power, they are replaced by the "CEO" at his will.

So I would continue:
"Conditinal power corrupts conditionally." That is: as long as you are holding on to it.
IF you see it for what it is, you are free to walk away from the (corporate) corruption.

I remember those words Analyzer. I think that's one of the most subtle and deception ploys of abusive environments. They hide a lie/s behind a curtain of truth displayed before the congregation. The people assume the leader is genuine because of the truth displayed, yet the majority don't realize what's really going on behind that curtain. Also called lack of integrity.
The congregation can only begin to get a clue about what's really going on as they start see those behind the curtain (the core) start falling away like flies. In our particular situation those that got burned were the workers, ministers, those that wanted to be of help and to minister.
The incredible thing is when many people start to notice a large number of once faithful workers fall away, many act as if it's just normal routine. Kind of a hoo-huuuhm mentality.

[Anna Marta]

I
The congregation can only begin to get a clue about what's really going on as they start see those behind the curtain (the core) start falling away like flies. In our particular situation those that got burned were the workers, ministers, those that wanted to be of help and to minister.
The incredible thing is when many people start to notice a large number of once faithful workers fall away, many act as if it's just normal routine. Kind of a hoo-huuuhm mentality.

Echoes our situation. The ho hum mentality regarding once faithful workers falling away is actually a common thing in these churches.

Those indoctrinated develop a group mentality and don't hiccup when changes happen... as long as they are not personaly impacted. It has been seen repeatedly down through history.

If the problem isn't on my turf then, I am not about to make trouble for myself and rock my nice world by complaining about it pinching someone else... Human nature is not Godly nature, although we seem to expect it to be.

If the head is crocked then he can't very well lead in a straight line.. :rolleyes:

[luttrell03]

Echoes our situation. The ho hum mentality regarding once faithful workers falling away is actually a common thing in these churches.

Those indoctrinated develop a group mentality and don't hiccup when changes happen... as long as they are not personaly impacted. It has been seen repeatedly down through history.

If the problem isn't on my turf then, I am not about to make trouble for myself and rock my nice world by complaining about it pinching someone else... Human nature is not Godly nature, although we seem to expect it to be.

If the head is crocked then he can't very well lead in a straight line.. :rolleyes:

AM, you should write a book. I was reminded that even bad leading is still leading. It still has a very powerful influence as seen in the automated behaviours and statements made by the indoctrinated. The question is where is it leading a person to? I guess that's why Jesus was soo adamant about checking the fruit, recognizing the good Shepherd's voice vs. the hirelying, etc..

[ex-shep]

Could another monkey trap be when the controlling leader gains influence by giving his most loyal followers/supporters a 'certain' degree of his influence, pats on the back, a badge, (puppet) leadership over ministries,... giving them positions in the higher pecking oder. To me this is the core machinery of a codependent relationship.
The condition for getting a position is that they show absolute loyalty, also called coming under the "vision".

This is what happened to me on one side and I think happens quite often. Sometimes when I see newer people recruited by the leader, given degrees of "delegated authority" and all excited and on fire because they're being "used" (and you do get used);brought closer to the echelons ( me no can spell) of leadership,, something inside bothers me a bit. Maybe it's just me thinking too negatively and I hope I'm wrong but I think, ...man, they don't see it. I hope they don't get hurt like soo many others since and after me. But, sad to say I have seen a few times now people go in excited and hopeful and come out the other side burned.


Good point. One of the monkey traps in the last few months was speaking of all the good things happening at the Bible school. It got to the point that I forgot the focus. "Echelon" was spelled correctly BTW. The elders in the group almost spoke for the group. I always got from Tammy, "talk to the elders, they have all the answers". If all our righteousness are of filthy rags and none is righteous, then that claim may be a bit of a stretch.

[ex-shep]

I have to keenly sensitive to the monkey trap of mystical manipulation. This the process of setting up an artificial spiritual environment to validate the group.

As I looked at how I came to faith in the Lord, I can safely say it evolved on its own with God orchestrating. I came to my alma mater at the same time a series of campus evangelists came to campus. I then met up a girl from a small Methodist church and her campus choir. Obviously choir members prayed for me and the rest is history.

When I look at the situation with the coed I was chasing all over campus trying to recruit her, I realize that was the ultimate monkey trap.

I think about it as there were some curious turns of event with Bambi. I was encountering situations where I was running into Bambi at work and close to where she lives. The church I attend is a few miles away. An AA meeting and the grocery store is apparently around the corner. I am not sure who was doing more of the double take, I or Bambi. I have had to call myself on the temptation to try to time the run ins. I instantly call myself on it, "HOWARD!! You did this to Monica. You have no right to act this way. God will work this HIS way and he does not need his help. IS THAT CLEAR!!??"

I have to stand back and let God work. I remember the orchestra analogy first and foremost. It only goes to show that even though I have been out my groups for nearly 25 years, I am still powerless over the old mind control tapes. I can say with assurance the church I attend would never countenance mystical manipulation. If anything, I would be looking at some serious disciplinary action on the part of the elders and pastors. Attraction, rather than promotion has been the rule.

When I have completely let go and let God, some curious things have arose. I remember praying that Bambi would have Sundays off -- no such luck with her seniority. She is off Sundays. I was curious if anyone lived in the rural community 50 miles aways. She moves into the same community as the church. While Bambi and I do not talk, she has not been given to panic or rage. She has been comfortable around me. My wife and I have grown closer to the Lord and each other in the process. Given the outcomes, why should I interfere -- lest the monkey trap snap on me. :eek:

[Minni]

I can really relate to what you are saying about monekey traps. I guess most of us in this forum has taken that bait, and got trapped. We "needed" the valdiation from others, we "needed" to feel important. And yes, as human beings we do, because made us that way, but that is why it is so dangerous, we can so easily be abused, especially if we are under toxic teaching. But when it comes to monkey traps, I really thought that I was "over it." and that I should not be trapped again. Yeah, right:D When someone plays the "Free-card" against me, I am doing the monkey-trap again. Like this birthday party I was invited to,with a bounch of relgiosus fanatics, and I did not want to go, but the woman said: "If you are REALLY free, you can go!", and BAM I took the bait, danced the monkey dance, and got trapped, actually in my own need of valdiate myself and show myself as free.
I guess I never will be.....
Minni

[ex-shep]

I can really relate to what you are saying about monekey traps. I guess most of us in this forum has taken that bait, and got trapped. We "needed" the valdiation from others, we "needed" to feel important. And yes, as human beings we do, because made us that way, but that is why it is so dangerous, we can so easily be abused, especially if we are under toxic teaching. But when it comes to monkey traps, I really thought that I was "over it." and that I should not be trapped again. Yeah, right:D When someone plays the "Free-card" against me, I am doing the monkey-trap again. Like this birthday party I was invited to,with a bounch of relgiosus fanatics, and I did not want to go, but the woman said: "If you are REALLY free, you can go!", and BAM I took the bait, danced the monkey dance, and got trapped, actually in my own need of valdiate myself and show myself as free.
I guess I never will be.....
Minni


I have become more seasoned, but never cured. Once a former group member, always a former group member. At least I caught on to the old tapes before Bambi ever smartened up.

[Reg]

I looked up what monkey traps are. Interesting analogy when applied psychologically

monkey trap (plural monkey traps)

1. (literally, probably folk-lore) A cage containing a banana with a hole large enough for a monkey's hand to fit in, but not large enough for a monkey's fist (clutching a banana) to come out. Used to "catch" monkeys that lack the intellect to let go of the banana and run away.
2. (figuratively) A clever trap of any sort, that owes its success to the ineptitude or gullibility of the victim.

So it seems it's as simple as letting go of the banana and run away. :)

[ex-shep]

I looked up what monkey traps are. Interesting analogy when applied psychologically

monkey trap (plural monkey traps)

1. (literally, probably folk-lore) A cage containing a banana with a hole large enough for a monkey's hand to fit in, but not large enough for a monkey's fist (clutching a banana) to come out. Used to "catch" monkeys that lack the intellect to let go of the banana and run away.
2. (figuratively) A clever trap of any sort, that owes its success to the ineptitude or gullibility of the victim.

So it seems it's as simple as letting go of the banana and run away. :)


And am I ever powerless. :eek::D

[Anna Marta]

Letting go of the right things is a life long lesson :D LOL

We have an apartment full of things one of us needs to part with... before we are irretrievably trapped... :cool:

[luttrell03]

I looked up what monkey traps are. Interesting analogy when applied psychologically

monkey trap (plural monkey traps)

1. (literally, probably folk-lore) A cage containing a banana with a hole large enough for a monkey's hand to fit in, but not large enough for a monkey's fist (clutching a banana) to come out. Used to "catch" monkeys that lack the intellect to let go of the banana and run away.
2. (figuratively) A clever trap of any sort, that owes its success to the ineptitude or gullibility of the victim.

So it seems it's as simple as letting go of the banana and run away. :)

Yeah, letting go. I wish I would/could've done that easier. But, I hope I'm learning. I guess, human nature being what it is sometimes, we or at least I, have to learn to let of go (or stay away) certain things the hard way. When you bring in certain ingredients to lure; position, ministering opportunities, group 'stategy', in an environement based on codependency, it's a very dangerous and addictive comby. Anyway, I hope I got some of the gullible knocked out of me.

[Jerry]

I don't like bananas,,,,,,,,,,,,, :D

[Anna Marta]

I don't like bananas,,,,,,,,,,,,, :D

Me either, but it isn't bananas I need to let go of :(

AM