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View Full Version : Church Myths? The 'office' of pastors/elders


luttrell03
06-13-2009, 03:24 AM
Hi. In our group we decided to look a bit to see what NT leadership looked/looks like. Just giving a try and out of curiousity. I know it can be sometimes a pretty dry subject. I also understand that it can be an unhealthy trigger at our different points of healing.

I was a little shocked at some of what I found...
For example, I was shocked to find that in the NT you find no where the idea of an 'office' in an assembly. Usually when we think of an office we think of officials and officers, ones with authority and rank.

Most people believe that one is officially placed in the position of a pastor, elder, overseer (all the same person/s).

What I found is that there is no such thing as an 'office' in the NT.
There are 'functions', character qualities (Rom. 12:8) but no 'official' postition. Much of the notion of an official position seems to me to come from human tradition, not the NT.

The KJ version uses the word 'office' in Rom. 11:13, 12:4, and 1Tim. 3:1.

-In Rom. 11:3 the word is 'diakonia' which means "service".
-In Rom. 12:4 the word is 'praxis' which denotes action/function.
-In 1Tim. 3:1 the word 'office' doesn't exist at all in the Greek. It was intentionally inserted in the KJV. Why? Maybe a bias for ecclesiastical rule?? Don't know exactly.

How were Elders chosen in the NT? It says that the Holy Spirit chose them (Acts 20:28). It appears in the NT that the churches would then recognize (rather than appoint) the Elders by recognizing their maturity, gifts and character.
The word 'Elder' refers to one's spiritual maturity. The words overseer/pastor referred to their functions.

What I'm just trying to convery is that there are no places in the NT for the idea of ecclesiastical heirachy (which goes well with Jesus' idea of leadership), rank, etc. where Elders are seen 'above' the rest of believers.
I think the NT idea is purely one of 'leading by example' and a godly influence. The idea of leading/godly influence is a lot different than the idea of officiating, ruling, words which give the idea of rank or being 'over people' etc..
That's why the requirements for Elders/Overseers in 1Tim. 3:1, Titus 1 are CHARACTER qualities.
An Elder is someone who has a positive, mature influence and is an example
'among' the other believers, not 'above' them. Quite contrary to leaderships that force their authority on people and then defend their offices by means outside of the requirements of the NT.
I also found no example of NT 'ruling' elders, nor chief elders. That might seem a bit radical for some but after a word study of Heb. 13:17, 7, 24; Rom. 12:8, I'm convinced that the word placed there, 'Rule' which is again found in the KJV is not the best word to use from the Greek. I could try to explain more what I mean in case anyone had any curiosity.
But, I would like to stay objective, unbiased and get feed back, in case I missed something or haven't yet bored everyone to tears.:)

simka2
06-13-2009, 08:14 AM
You definately haven't bored me! and I would be curious about the word "rule" as it pertains to that particular scripture. I bellieve it says something about ...ruling well...or something of that nature. I'll be honest that I have struggled with this verse...so I would diffenatly be curious :)

luttrell03
06-13-2009, 12:46 PM
You definately haven't bored me! and I would be curious about the word "rule" as it pertains to that particular scripture. I believe it says something about ...ruling well...or something of that nature. I'll be honest that I have struggled with this verse...so I would diffenatly be curious :)

Hi. To your question, I have left one such online article concerning "Elder Rule" that I think is worthy of reading. Grab a cup of coffee. Why try to explain it when this guy I think did a good, sound and balanced job?
Just short though, basically this author is reasoning from the Bible that the word "Rule" used in Heb. 13:7,17, 27; Rom. 12:8, 1Thess. 5:12, 1Tim. 5:17 is not the best word the KJ translators could have chosen from the Greek. In fact he believes it was a biased translation to push the ecclesiastical heirachy idea under the time of King James. The word 'rule' connotates the idea of power and authority 'over' it's subjects.
The Greek words there, prostemai and hegeomai have the meanings of, "to lead", "attend to", "to persuade", "to listen to".
The main trust is NOT the idea of submitting to a power, but of 'leading' being influenced, being persuaded by. The Grk. word for power and authority, in contrast is archon.

Of course as I search for some answers I do it in fear and trembling not wanting myself to be bias or twist the Truth to fit my preconceived ideas or reactions as a result of SA. But I'm convinced that the emphasis and misundertanding of 'officers' and 'rulers' and authoritarianism in general has led to the distinctions made between the 'clergy' and the 'laity'. A concept that Jesus taught the opposite of ("you are all brothers").

Here's the article. Let me know what you think. http://www.theexaminer.org/volume2/number4/rule.htm

luttrell03
06-15-2009, 10:01 AM
In light of this subject I'm learning, at least I think, some things about leadership.
I just read in an article a nice idea concerning God's view of leadership which is much different often than man's view (top down, positional, chain of command, head honcho, 'over' others.etc.)

Often we view church leadership as "A POSITION THAT'S GRANTED".
In God's kingdom leadership is "A CHARACTER TRAIT THAT IS ACQUIRED."
"NOT AUTHORITY TO COMMAND but OPPORTUNITY TO INFLUENCE." (Truth Steams-"Greatness in the Kingdom).

That's what it's all about to me.
Often, when we think about the words pastor, elder, bishop,etc.. we think POSITION and TITLE.
It's really I think about being influenced and influencing others, servanthood, care, a function, not a title.