Tough ?

[simka2]

Sun night I was asked a really tough ? My husband and I are close friends with a couple whom we served on staff with under abuseive pastor. Now 2 years later we are at the same church. We went out to dinner and I was relaying how upset I was my the sun message...how certain things pastor said were so reminescent of spiritually abusive pastor. They brought up something that was interesting...they wondered how long all of us were going to live compareing this pastor to the former one? Was that fair to him? was it fair to us?

I started thinking when this pastor says things, I attribute former pastors definetions...but my current pastor may not be saying that at all. So in reality...my twisted experience causes me to initially twist what my current pastor says. Now I know this isn't true in all cases...and my pastor is human and fallible...but thats one big difference already...he allows himself to be fallible and me to disagree with him :) without punishment!

I hate liveing with the fear that I'll be violated again! But this doesn't seem like really living either :(

[luttrell03]

Sun night I was asked a really tough ? My husband and I are close friends with a couple whom we served on staff with under abuseive pastor. Now 2 years later we are at the same church. We went out to dinner and I was relaying how upset I was my the sun message...how certain things pastor said were so reminescent of spiritually abusive pastor. They brought up something that was interesting...they wondered how long all of us were going to live compareing this pastor to the former one? Was that fair to him? was it fair to us?

I started thinking when this pastor says things, I attribute former pastors definetions...but my current pastor may not be saying that at all. So in reality...my twisted experience causes me to initially twist what my current pastor says. Now I know this isn't true in all cases...and my pastor is human and fallible...but thats one big difference already...he allows himself to be fallible and me to disagree with him :) without punishment!
I hate liveing with the fear that I'll be violated again! But this doesn't seem like really living either :(


I know that. There's a lot of introspection and fear post SA that we will go in false,crazy directions or do worse things than the abusers did to us or fall into a even worse pit than the one we just climbed out of. All legitimate concerns.
I think its good to be aware of our triggers and to always 'hold them up to the light' to see if they're helping us or hindering us.

Honestly though in many ways I think you are right to 'examine' in a good way what the pastor is saying. We are not told to just passively receive because 'leader' said so, but we are told to see if it lines up with Truth.
After all, Paul called the Bereans (Acts 17) 'noble' because they just didn't receive Paul's words because he was an Apostle or a great teacher; but they examined his words according to the Bible. Paul didn't get upset about that. He commended them for doing that.
I think any legite teacher whose heart's desire is to lead by example would want the church to examine his words everytime he speaks to make sure he's telling the Truth.

I like your pastors ideas about a church without walls. That part didn't sound like he's trying to hold onto his 'baby'. Maybe it just triggered you because you thought he meant, 'you need to go to church, building whatever to grow'.
I have noticed that some things that have triggered me were overreactions or misunderstanding where I just had to make quick adjustments. Sometimes it takes awhile to use this new sensitivity, born out of abuse, wisely.

[simka2]

I realize that often I compare to previous abuse instead of compare it to scripture and what I know about God.

I think this is in part because I become very concerned with not being "back there" and because scriptures were so easily twisted that I don't find simple comfort in scripture.

But I'm realizing that just compareing the 2 pastor isn't enough...I'm still trying to abdicate responsibilty to the pastor instead of owning it myself.

I'm beging to wonder if there isn't a "safe" church...but saftey in churches that allow you to disagree without shaming or punishing you. Pastors will preach bad messages...sometimes out of their own wounds...being able to allow them that (as the exception not the norm) I think is good...it goes hand in hand with them allowing us to not agree with everything that comes out of their very human mouth :)

[luttrell03]

I realize that often I compare to previous abuse instead of compare it to scripture and what I know about God.

I think this is in part because I become very concerned with not being "back there" and because scriptures were so easily twisted that I don't find simple comfort in scripture.

But I'm realizing that just compareing the 2 pastor isn't enough...I'm still trying to abdicate responsibilty to the pastor instead of owning it myself.

I'm beging to wonder if there isn't a "safe" church...but saftey in churches that allow you to disagree without shaming or punishing you. Pastors will preach bad messages...sometimes out of their own wounds...being able to allow them that (as the exception not the norm) I think is good...it goes hand in hand with them allowing us to not agree with everything that comes out of their very human mouth :)

Sure, I agree. I think that's called two-way accountability. Each party is willing to be transparent, teaching and corrected in love if need be. What we're scared of and very sensitive to is one-way accountability.
The indoctrination that there's a special clergy above the laity often sets up leaders to think they are not accountable in the same way to the rest. That's what we're scared of and I think it's healthy when the 'red light' comes on.
I also think your approach is healthy,,,to examine the things that push those buttons and how you/we deal responsibly with them. Great!

[Hope 98]

The first thing that came to mind as I skimmed this thread is that

Healing takes time

Experience determines our perspective and comparing a new pastor to an abusive pastor helps you learn about both of them and your own perspective. It's only "unfair" if you are determined to hang on to an old perspective that doesn't hold up in new light.

Growth takes time too.

[JaniceB]

The first thing that came to mind as I skimmed this thread is that

Healing takes time

Experience determines our perspective and comparing a new pastor to an abusive pastor helps you learn about both of them and your own perspective. It's only "unfair" if you are determined to hang on to an old perspective that doesn't hold up in new light.

Growth takes time too.


Hope, you hit the nail on the head for me once again. Healing does take time and we'll quit comparing and worrying about SA when we feel safe and well again. Meanwhile we need to help ourselves heal by just accepting the healing process. Recognizing and understanding our anxiety is part of that process.

[dougjb]

Hi simka2,
I believe that process you are talking about is very healthy because you are actively engaged in working through your particular issues. Any pastor who worth his salt would be glad to see people actively engaging and interacting with the sermons or whatever because that is where spiritual growth happens.
I agree with luttrell that there should be a two-way accountability and that happens when we are proactively engaged in a matter. Also, people will made responsible for what they do or say.

dougjb
some food for thought

[Carmen]

Simka,

On one hand your friends may have a point, but I don't think that they can really blame you for taking that stance. You have been through a lot and have learned to be cautious. There can be a lot of tenseness in the emotions when you get into harmless situations that remind you of the abusive ones.

IMHO it is healthy to have one ear on the sermon listening for the teaching and the other ear listening for anything else that might come up that isn't part of what God is trying to teach us at that moment.

Sometimes my ear listening for the the "anything else" seems much more alert than the one listening for the teaching. I get nervous and suspicious. It has gotten a lot better, though. More and more I am able to relax within limits.

I like to compare this type of relaxation with the one that I observe my cat doing. When she wants to relax but still stay alert and ready, she doesn't lie on her side. She lies down with her belly below her, feet on the ground, and shuts her eyes. She would quickly be able to stand up and run if she had to. She looks pretty relaxed, but is not completely off guard. I hope to achieve that state in church (not sleeping though :) ). I want to be relaxed and feel good about the situation but still be alert to identify "anything else" that is coming my way other than good teaching.

[Jerry]

..he allows himself to be fallible and me to disagree with him :) without punishment!

I hate liveing with the fear that I'll be violated again! But this doesn't seem like really living either :(

Dear Simka,,,,
If I don't take what I have learned in the past and apply it to my current environment,,,,,of what use am I to myself ???? Your current Pastor seems like a pretty good "Joe"....It is healthy,in fact necessary to make comparisons to make intelligent informed decisions .....I don't believe that you need to live in fear of being violated again because you are looking for the "Red Flags" of abuse which some call making "Comparisons" ;) Fool me once,shame on you....Fool me twice,shame on me ,,,,,,if ya get my drift ;)

Love Jerry

[luttrell03]

Fool me once,shame on you....Fool me twice,shame on me ,,,,,,if ya get my drift

Brilliant Jerry:)

[analyzer]

Fool me once,shame on you....Fool me twice,shame on me

I picked up this proverb from a hippie that I met on a paradise island in 1980. While we were sitting in a boat and sailing over a lagoon he said:

"Somebody screw you first time his fault second time your fault."

He tried to be super-cool so he spoke with a monotonous voice in telegram style :)

[Minni]

Dear Simka2.
I totally feel the same thing as you are writing.
I can not go to church (insitution) anymore just because of these things. The thing is that it is not only what this pastor says that might be upsetting, but also the WAY he might say it, that brings up the abuse again.

To me, reading Jeff V book about how a lot of abuse can be done WITHOUT words, just adding shame and guilt to people who do not follow the unspoken rules. I would
feel that out. This pastor says: "You are free to disagree with me." But are you really? When you start doing the opposite thing of what pepole expect of you as a church-member, and you will see by the way they handle it, it it is abusive or not. Do they put shame or guilt on you for not doing what is obligated or do they really love you where you are, and that obligations are less important than frienship an BEING church.
The truth is, I have been put the instituion for so long, and everytime I have tried to get back in there, I have realized as long as it is an institution, there is an "it" to protect.
I do not know, but what this other guy said: If I don't take what I have learned in the past and apply it to my current environment,,,,,of what use am I to myself ???? makes a lot of sense to me. Trust your feeling and not only listen to these peoples actually WORDS, but how they treat you, EVEN when you "disobey".
Love Minni







I realize that often I compare to previous abuse instead of compare it to scripture and what I know about God.

I think this is in part because I become very concerned with not being "back there" and because scriptures were so easily twisted that I don't find simple comfort in scripture.

But I'm realizing that just compareing the 2 pastor isn't enough...I'm still trying to abdicate responsibilty to the pastor instead of owning it myself.

I'm beging to wonder if there isn't a "safe" church...but saftey in churches that allow you to disagree without shaming or punishing you. Pastors will preach bad messages...sometimes out of their own wounds...being able to allow them that (as the exception not the norm) I think is good...it goes hand in hand with them allowing us to not agree with everything that comes out of their very human mouth :)

[Yvonne]

Simka2,

So much of what you say makes sense and I appreciate the wisdom from experience. You sound like you're in a good place--you see warnings but you're inspecting them too.