Detoxing from Church

[luttrell03]

Hi All.
I just read this article called, 'Detoxing from Church'. It was one of the most clarifying articles I've read so far concerning my big, 'what is church' 'how does it relate to my walk with God'?,,,, question.
It's not promoting any Church Movement or model but really nailed some great points for me concerning the core issues of faith.
It would be interesting to hear others opinions.

Here you go http://www.theofframp.org/Detox.html

[ex-shep]

Even your by line grabbed my attention at this early hour on a Sunday morning. I skimmed the article. It does get things in perspective. One can get over involved and miss the boat completely. It is not the building but the relationships that count.

Given the drama of our past group, sleeping in is understandable and for some, much needed for our own recuperation.

Much to their credit, the church I attend plus the former congregation in Texas, stressed the importance of not being over involved. I have to mindful as I drive 25 each way. There is a lot of wisdom that way.

Advanced apologies for any triggers, but I was intrigued with the acronym B.U.S.Y: brought under Satan's Yoke. It is a rather sobering thought.

My compliments for the article. Next latte on me. :)

[Timid]

Very interesting article. I will have to re-read it again to digest it better, but for the most part, I think that the author has really grasped the difficulties with organized church and compared it to true relationship with God. I will have to ponder more about what he said.

Thank you for posting this. It will keep me busy studying for a while. (I need to look up all the scriptures he referenced in the article.)

Timid

[dougjb]

Hi everyone,
I found this article very refreshing and encouraging. It is clear to me that this individual really desires to reclaim the church back to what was intended by the LORD as revealed in Scripture. In fact, I believe that he really understands the problem of what is commonly referred to as the so called organized church. It may be more accurate to say a "organized religious group" than a church because to the degree that business, marketing, corporate structures and principles are implemented the more it ceases to reflect what a church actually looks like. But I am only knit picking here.

What I am picking up is that the "Detoxifying" is from all the things that people have imported into the church that do not belong in the church. There is a real addiction to a host of non-biblical programs and models as though they will cause people to come to Christ, of course, only if we work the program properly.:rolleyes: The Christian faith and the church works best when it is Christ centered and people orientated.

Another thing I liked about the article is the balance he brought into it by emphasizing a Trinitarian view of the Christian life of unity and diversity. What mean is that there is a need for community and also a need for personal responsibility in our faith. Anyway I give the article 5 gold stars and two thumbs up.:D:cool:

dougjb
some food for thought

[luttrell03]

Great comments. I could really relate to the experience of being addicted to the organizational culture of the church/group and the dynamics that result in a person's soul, especially if they're close to any leadership. In such an environment, the entanglement of codependency runs deep into the fabric of the soul.
Any addiction leads us away from reality concerning the world around us and about ourselves. Most of us don't consider that one can be addicted to church.
It was helpful for me to see that this period of my life is really a detox period, full of the rocky ups and downs and shakes of addiction withdrawals, identity issues, re-establishing truths (It's about Christ) and my relation to them etc,etc.
In this way I can really see the blessings more and more that God got me out of such a system.

[dougjb]

Great comments. I could really relate to the experience of being addicted to the organizational culture of the church/group and the dynamics that result in a person's soul, especially if they're close to any leadership. In such an environment, the entanglement of codependency runs deep into the fabric of the soul.
Any addiction leads us away from reality concerning the world around us and about ourselves. Most of us don't consider that one can be addicted to church.
It was helpful for me to see that this period of my life is really a detox period, full of the rocky ups and downs and shakes of addiction withdrawals, identity issues, re-establishing truths (It's about Christ) and my relation to them etc,etc.
In this way I can really see the blessings more and more that God got me out of such a system.

Hi luttrell03,
I can really relate to what you are saying. I remember when I was a young Christian, there was a great emphasis on the need to attend church Sunday morning, Sunday night, Wednesday night, and of course the weekly bible study. One time I was out of town for a week and began to feel spiritually drained because I missed three services that week. The church I attended encouraged a lot of emotional expression during worship time in order to get filled up in one's spirit. When I returned the next week, I said to myself that there is something really wrong here. Does one really have to get caught up in some emotional frenzy to get in touch with God?
What I did was not participate in the emotionalism of the worship service. I began to realize that the church service was creating an emotion addiction among the members of the congregation and even causing an altered state of mind among many of them. Even though I felt empty inside, I had the realization that I developed an emotional addiction or some kind of adrenaline high which was not true worship at all. Once I got through the transition, I began to see worship and the state of the church in a very different light. In fact, I really began to mature quickly after that time.

dougjb
some food for thought

[Timid]

Any addiction leads us away from reality concerning the world around us and about ourselves. Most of us don't consider that one can be addicted to church.

Hi luttrell03,

This observation is so true. I remember talking to a co-worker while I was listening to some music. She asked me who it was I was listening to. I showed her the CD cover. She said "Wow he is handsome. Is that one of your internet friends?" My instant reaction was, "I wish" then I was embarrassed because as a married woman the church says I can't even notice other people. I apologized to her for my behavior and she said something to me that really hit home. She said, "Don't apologize, that comment makes you look more real."

I thought about that a lot after that. The culture and behavior we display is seen by non-christians as being fake and unreal. But yet when Jesus walked this earth throngs of people followed Him. There is a disconnect somewhere and I believe the disconnect is the organized church.

The author of the article hit on this thought. And I think he is 100% on target.

Timid

[simka2]

Great article!! I sent it to hubby and he came home from work with it printed off and reading it :)

We related to the whole "creating a consumer church" it goes back to pastors are ceo of buisness...pushing a product...for human consumption. Something is wrong with this picture. No wonder it becomes about control and manipulation :(

[analyzer]

The church I attended encouraged a lot of emotional expression during worship time in order to get filled up in one's spirit. When I returned the next week, I said to myself that there is something really wrong here. Does one really have to get caught up in some emotional frenzy to get in touch with God?

What I did was not participate in the emotionalism of the worship service. I began to realize that the church service was creating an emotion addiction among the members of the congregation and even causing an altered state of mind among many of them. Even though I felt empty inside, I had the realization that I developed an emotional addiction or some kind of adrenaline high which was not true worship at all.

I used to feel guilty when I didn't feel anything during the worship. In our church, emotional worship was introduced a couple of years ago as a "cover up" to forget abusive practices from the past.

I think the book of Genesis is a goldmine for examples of true worship: in the desert, by yourself, setting up a pile of rocks as a monument, talking to God. Most people ask themselves how Jesus was able to endure 40 days in the desert, but I feel that it cost Jesus quite an effort to leave the desert, after being in such close contact with the Father. (Of course His love for us got Him out of the desert)

When I am outdoors, my thoughts run so clearly and I can discern the still small voice of God. Here I get inpired, encouraged and may be sometimes even corrected. The still small voice then leads me out of the wilderness, back to a gathering, to encourage my brothers and sisters to meet God in a personal and fresh way.

2 Corinthians 8:5: "And this they did, not as we hoped, but first gave their own selves to the Lord, and unto us by the will of God."

[luttrell03]

I used to feel guilty when I didn't feel anything during the worship. In our church, emotional worship was introduced a couple of years ago as a "cover up" to forget abusive practices from the past.

I think the book of Genesis is a goldmine for examples of true worship: in the desert, by yourself, setting up a pile of rocks as a monument, talking to God. Most people ask themselves how Jesus was able to endure 40 days in the desert, but I feel that it cost Jesus quite an effort to leave the desert, after being in such close contact with the Father. (Of course His love for us got Him out of the desert)

When I am outdoors, my thoughts run so clearly and I can discern the still small voice of God. Here I get inpired, encouraged and may be sometimes even corrected. The still small voice then leads me out of the wilderness, back to a gathering, to encourage my brothers and sisters to meet God in a personal and fresh way.

2 Corinthians 8:5: "And this they did, not as we hoped, but first gave their own selves to the Lord, and unto us by the will of God."

Great thought Anylizer. I also feel closest to God getting out in his creation where only the sky is my ceiling,,,HIs cathedral.

[Carmen]

The article was very interesting. This statment stood out for me:

"Involvement in an organizational consumer-driven church blinds us to the real state of our lives."

That was true of me while I was into the Pentecostal/Charismatic stuff. The emotional highs were definitely addictive. I needed time to get away from all of that and gain objectivity.

In addition, I think that a detox period is necessary not only for coming out of "euphoric" relationships but also for coming out of abusive relationship where someone was dependent on the abuser. Both relationships were based on dependence.

[ex-shep]

The article was very interesting. This statment stood out for me:

"Involvement in an organizational consumer-driven church blinds us to the real state of our lives."

That was true of me while I was into the Pentecostal/Charismatic stuff. The emotional highs were definitely addictive. I needed time to get away from all of that and gain objectivity.

In addition, I think that a detox period is necessary not only for coming out of "euphoric" relationships but also for coming out of abusive relationship where someone was dependent on the abuser. Both relationships were based on dependence.

I have to watch it on the highs. They can be addicting. I like Willow when she made the made comment, "personally I like things mundane".

[Carmen]

It wasn't just the highs themselves. Going to church to experience that was hiding the fact that I wasn't making any spiritual progress and that they were not feeding me spiritual meat nor did they really intend to.

[luttrell03]

It wasn't just the highs themselves. Going to church to experience that was hiding the fact that I wasn't making any spiritual progress and that they were not feeding me spiritual meat nor did they really intend to.

Exactly Carmen. That's what really hit me in the article. The numbing effect of the addiction that neutralizes real growth and moving forward. It's not till you're out and can look back objectively and honestly that you realize that some things and relationships weren't healthy.

[Gayle]

This past week I drove by a traditional fundy church sign that read -
"All the world is a camera, look pleasant please."

It was a detoxing moment. :D

Seriously, I feel for others reading that sign who are not able to feel pleasant let alone look pleasant due to whatever reasons in their lives....and after reading that sign it may add more hopelessness to their situation. Not to mention the false front it gives to Christianity. Thinking about writing that church a letter too.

[luttrell03]

This past week I drove by a traditional fundy church sign that read -
"All the world is a camera, look pleasant please."

It was a detoxing moment. :D

Seriously, I feel for others reading that sign who are not able to feel pleasant let alone look pleasant due to whatever reasons in their lives....and after reading that sign it may add more hopelessness to their situation. Not to mention the false front it gives to Christianity. Thinking about writing that church a letter too.

Exactly Galye. I am really learning a lot from everybody here.
Though addiction has its obvious negatives, basically people, including myself in the past, would rather stay addicted to something false than deal with the pain of really looking at the condition inside the soul and all the codenpendency going on.
Addictions hit some temporary but very powerful 'happy hormones' and at the same time numb reality and give us an 'excuse' for not looking at things objectively.

Here's a youtube clip where a guy also discusses 'Church Addiction'. Let me know what you all think,,,if it's strange or something?? I hope I'm not advertising here.? I just think this is a real and relavent problems. Here it is.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=75tNd5Fuemo

[ex-shep]

Exactly Galye. I am really learning a lot from everybody here.
Though addiction has its obvious negatives, basically people, including myself in the past, would rather stay addicted to something false than deal with the pain of really looking at the condition inside the soul and all the codenpendency going on.
Addictions hit some temporary but very powerful 'happy hormones' and at the same time numb reality and give us an 'excuse' for not looking at things objectively.

Here's a youtube clip where a guy also discusses 'Church Addiction'. Let me know what you all think,,,if it's strange or something?? I hope I'm not advertising here.? I just think this is a real and relavent problems. Here it is.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=75tNd5Fuemo

I am listening to the clip. I have heard it before. It is good. I was addicted to the bible school to the point that the only reality was the bible school. I remember the highs we got from the worship dynamic. Today the church is a part of my life. I do make several trips to the church, but I know it is only one part of my life. I have work, AA, my life, and the cats.

[simka2]

I got distracted on youtube and went to another clip about hurts in the church and was pretty disgusted :(

Anyway back on subject :) I liked the clip! I would really like to detox from church for a bit...I also enjoy seeing many of the people at my church. I only get to see some of them there because of how many other things we have going on with kids, school, and such.

But right now I have ceased everything but sun services.

[luttrell03]

I got distracted on youtube and went to another clip about hurts in the church and was pretty disgusted :(

Anyway back on subject :) I liked the clip! I would really like to detox from church for a bit...I also enjoy seeing many of the people at my church. I only get to see some of them there because of how many other things we have going on with kids, school, and such.

But right now I have ceased everything but sun services.

Sorry about that Simka. I can get sidetracked for long on that stuff also then afterwards I realize it just makes me not feel good.
THe video, like the article just hit the bulls-eye concerning my personal experience. It explained some of my hang-ups.

[luttrell03]

In my case I had to again admit that there was a lot of codependency involved with the leadership, which is just a relational form of addiction that leads both parties away from reality.
It was camoflaged as a healthy mentor type relationship with the pastor where he was the teacher and I the learning disciple.
Both benefit in an unhealthy way. The strong gets the admiration, the weaker has someone who can take the responsibility, make decisions for the other, etc..
I think many in an unhealthy church environment can become emotionally dependent or codependent on the pastor.
When that happens people are easily vulnerable to not hold the pastor responsible anymore for his behaviour and teaching. Out of emotional blindness they just assume the pastor is legitimate because, hey, 'He's my Pastor.....which means he can do no wrong.
Many dependents than abdicate their God-given responsibilities to walk before God, make decisions on their own, examine carefully, etc..

[SueJean]

Hi All.
I just read this article called, 'Detoxing from Church'. It was one of the most clarifying articles I've read so far concerning my big, 'what is church' 'how does it relate to my walk with God'?,,,, question.
It's not promoting any Church Movement or model but really nailed some great points for me concerning the core issues of faith.
It would be interesting to hear others opinions.

Here you go http://www.theofframp.org/Detox.htmlOhhh, I can't begin to tell you just how helpful this article was for me. Hugs sooo much in abundance. I need to reread it several times. Ohhhh, yes, indeed.

[luttrell03]

Ohhh, I can't begin to tell you just how helpful this article was for me. Hugs sooo much in abundance. I need to reread it several times. Ohhhh, yes, indeed.

Glad it has been a help,as for me also. Feel free to share additional insights that pop out from the article.

[SueJean]

Glad it has been a help,as for me also. Feel free to share additional insights that pop out from the article. Thanks, luttrell03, for the gentle and friendly suggestion that I can share. I'm in tears again. It is difficult after 24 yrs of being verbally beaten down for daring to question to now being encouraged to share. I'll do that.

[luttrell03]

Thanks, luttrell03, for the gentle and friendly suggestion that I can share. I'm in tears again. It is difficult after 24 yrs of being verbally beaten down for daring to question to now being encouraged to share. I'll do that.

Hi SueJean. Jesus in Jn. 10 described Himself and the Good Shepherd and the fake shepherd as a "hireling".

THe characteristics of a 'hireling' are....

1. Anytime a hireling is given a choice, between saving a sheep or saving their position, they will always choose their position.

2. They treat the sheep roughly, trying to force them to follow blindly.

I'm glad you're not under that anymore and we can enjoy and excercise a little bit of our freedom we have in Christ. God bless you.

[analyzer]

THe characteristics of a 'hireling' are....

1. Anytime a hireling is given a choice, between saving a sheep or saving their position, they will always choose their position.

2. They treat the sheep roughly, trying to force them to follow blindly.

well said. I'll second that.

[Anna Marta]

Yep,we were definitely under the authority of a hireling!

He's fine, we're roughed up. :rolleyes: But no longer blind followers... it seems like when he led us to the cliff - he stepped aside and let the rest of us keep going blindly till we fell over the edge. Yeah, that's a definition of blind following... :cool::cool::cool:

AM

[Anna Marta]

Have finally finished reading the article. I find I am of 2 minds.

1. I agree with the author's premise about especially the current organized church being addictive, consumer oriented and not a viable means to a closer relationship to Christ.

2. He loses me when he goes so deeply into Dallas Willard's writings and theories about community and church.

The community he describes has the same "feel" as the organized church except off in the other direction of piety direct quote to follow

(" I think of what we, Jesus and I, are going to do with you, to you, and for you. Likewise, I never think of what you are going to do with me, to me, and for me, but of what will be done by you and Jesus with me, to me, and for me. 7.")

He appears to recommend that people espouse a kind of holiness in thought, act, character and daily living that rings a little to "divine-like" in my ears. Of course, this could be because the article begins as a down to earth quest but ends up being written from an intellectual point of view and loses its' essential personalness.

Frankly, I am left where I have been since leaving the church. I know that the church is not what it is supposed to be, however, I do not have a good definition or explanation for what it should be or how to achieve it in the long run.

It appears that even the attempt to define "church" is dangerously close to again developing a product and not a relationship with Christ and His other children. (clarification - we are all His children, so relationship includes both believers and nonbelievers.)

I wonder if by design "church" is not supposed to be a place or a group, but a living organism, invisible like the wind, strong like a fire and refreshing like cold water all - of which can be experienced but the minute one tries to capture and limit any of them they lose their essential nature and beauty.

There I go again... I know what I mean, but am completely unable to communicate it. This would be so much easier if we could sit down and talk and share ideas and respond immediately to each other.

AM

[SueJean]

Yes! Ohhh, my dear, my darlin', you hit the nail on the head. I sooo appreciated the article when I gave it it's first read. Then, the 2nd read, I started to feel creepy.
Regarding your last paragraph, I think that is how the Body is supposed to be: a living organism, breathing, moving, life-giving; filled with wonder, and sorrow, and joy, and grief, and love, and anger and learning how to grow and operate in this world as human BE-ings.
That's some of what I received as I'm rereading The Shack. I'll tell ya, that book is helping me to reconnect with GOD in, I think, healthy ways. It's also stirred up what is bothering me about where we're now attending. And, I do not like how I'm feeling...the congregation...this elite group...feels too much like what I got out of. And, I do not have to try to please and beg and...oh, I'm going on my soapbox. I apologize. I just wanted to let you know that I agree with you, my dear.

[Anna Marta]

"The Shack" I really loved that book! It gave me so much on which to meditate and pray about. I was able to identify so strongly with "the great sorrow". I found so much comfort in the portion where he gets to see his daughter in heaven. The reconciliation of father and son gave me hope for my eventual meeting with my brother some day, probably not till heaven.

Then the part where he is faced with the ultimate decision for the life of his children ... and comes to realize an essential truth about the love of God.
I have kept that with me, close to my heart.

Thanks for reminding me of it all
AM

[luttrell03]

I wonder if by design "church" is not supposed to be a place or a group, but a living organism, invisible like the wind, strong like a fire and refreshing like cold water all - of which can be experienced but the minute one tries to capture and limit any of them they lose their essential nature and beauty.

There I go again... I know what I mean, but am completely unable to communicate it. This would be so much easier if we could sit down and talk and share ideas and respond immediately to each other.

AM

Hi. I can totally understand and agree with you. As we discussed the article in our group, though we liked it, a few of us didn't really grasp how to put things into a practical....whatever you call it,,,thing, although it opened our eyes to some things we had been intoxicated to, at least that's the impression I got.
I of course strongly identified with the first part of the article, the consumer churchy culture thing. I also liked the idea of, "being the church" versus "being churched".
But, we like you are still wondering, with a little since of adventure and a little uncertainty.

I'm kind of wondering if part of the problem/conflict,etc.. is that many of us (at least in our group) have only seen and experienced one thing so that's all we've known. Another consideration might be that it's simpler sometimes than we make it out to be. I know that I can make simpler things very complicated.
Simpler in the sense that it is all about a relationship (although relationships aren't simple) and becoming more like Him.

I tend to agree with you. I think you're in the right direction. I don't believe it's about a place or certain groups, methods, movenments or structures.
I think the church has some kind of mysterious, organic characteristic to it that the moment you try to put it into a 'model' it somehow stifles it. I guess the principle behind it all is, "Unless the Lord build the house, the builders build in vain." Although I still would like to learn, I would prefer to keep my hands off it.

Anyways AM, have you heard about the book, "Organic Church"? It might have a few insights in this direction. Thanks so much for the feedback.

[luttrell03]

Again AM, I'm glad for your insight. I must admit that I was soo blown away with the first section of the article that I read the 2nd section a bit carelessly, probably not even till the end. That's kind of silly.
I somehow get too stuck on identifying what I feel happened to me, that sometimes I forget to proactively look for a solution.
Anyways, its good to be able to carefully examine an article and exchange honest feedback in love. Hey, maybe that's a positive characteristic of a life giving, exhanging gathering together. That's great:).

[luttrell03]

Ok, just read the last section starting, with "The proper Role of community".
Honestly, I didn't even understand it.
:o

[Anna Marta]

Ok, just read the last section starting, with "The proper Role of community".
Honestly, I didn't even understand it.
:o

My experience exactly!

Community has no role, proper or otherwise, it just IS. What it is depends on those who are a part of it. Community looks like what it is, a genuine relationship of one person to another person... mulitplied many times.

As long as it is made of we human beings, one community can't be the same as another and none of them can be expected to be perfectly safe unless, as you quoted - it is God that builds the house.

Now since God does not seem to write much about a government, heirarchal system supporting, organized, card carrying, rules oriented, legalistic Institution in positive terms... You'd think we would have gotten the picture, right?

It is the state of each individual in relationship to Father God that is the heart and soul and safety of any group/gathering/community...

[Anna Marta]

I waited too long to add this thought as an edit, so here it is...

It seems to me that as each person comes closer to Christ and becomes more like Him through the work of the Holy Spirit in their inner being this will be reflected in the communal relationships. Simple but very very complex and indesribable all at once.

[luttrell03]

My experience exactly!

Community has no role, proper or otherwise, it just IS. What it is depends on those who are a part of it. Community looks like what it is, a genuine relationship of one person to another person... mulitplied many times.

As long as it is made of we human beings, one community can't be the same as another and none of them can be expected to be perfectly safe unless, as you quoted - it is God that builds the house.

Now since God does not seem to write much about a government, heirarchal system supporting, organized, card carrying, rules oriented, legalistic Institution in positive terms... You'd think we would have gotten the picture, right?

It is the state of each individual in relationship to Father God that is the heart and soul and safety of any group/gathering/community...

Exactly my sentiments. Although I know it was good to scoot out of the church I came from I still ask myself if something exists out there where we human type folks don't eventually strangle by trying to control it all the time?
It is true for example that many groups and movements that react and come out of another group end up making similar mistakes, if not sometimes even worse.

I think there are maybe healthy churches out there that are 2 way accountable, not organizational focused, title, position focused,,but focused more on relationship. I'm personally just not sure if I seen it.

[Anna Marta]

Reflecting back on some of the recent articles, your comment regarding healthy churches and/or groups brings to my mind again the issue of detox.

I fear that with the historical lack of successful alternatives and with the concept of organized church being so deeply ingrained in our minds (cultures too) can it be so difficult as to be nearly impossible to live with the discomfort from getting off the merry-go-round while everyone else keeps going around and around... :o ( looking as if they like it)

Church is big business and it pays great so as long as people remain willing to support it - it will exist. The issues for me (and maybe others) are


do I dare to get out of the boat - alone?
Because the sea outside the comfort of the boat is definitely not safe, is it?
Am I willing to live outside my comfort zone?
What's it worth to me?
How do I do it right when everything feels so wrong?
How large is group supposed to be in order to provide the love, support and encouragement we need in life

[luttrell03]

Reflecting back on some of the recent articles, your comment regarding healthy churches and/or groups brings to my mind again the issue of detox.

I fear that with the historical lack of successful alternatives and with the concept of organized church being so deeply ingrained in our minds (cultures too) can it be so difficult as to be nearly impossible to live with the discomfort from getting off the merry-go-round while everyone else keeps going around and around... :o ( looking as if they like it)

Church is big business and it pays great so as long as people remain willing to support it - it will exist. The issues for me (and maybe others) are


do I dare to get out of the boat - alone?
Because the sea outside the comfort of the boat is definitely not safe, is it?
Am I willing to live outside my comfort zone?
What's it worth to me?
How do I do it right when everything feels so wrong?
How large is group supposed to be in order to provide the love, support and encouragement we need in life


I remember adventures on merry-go-rounds as a kid. I remember that feeling after jumping off a fast one how the world spinned around in my head. That's a little maybe how it initially feels jumping off my personal church system thing. Initially my head was spinning and I lost my bearings. I was desparately trying just to stay on my feet.

AM I like your thoughts in this direction. There is a price to pay for, "jumping out of the boat". The system will tell you it's a bad price to pay. I still believe it's the first step to something more genuine and healing. The dizzy spells are even sometimes subsiding.

[Hope 98]

do I dare to get out of the boat - alone?
Because the sea outside the comfort of the boat is definitely not safe, is it?
Am I willing to live outside my comfort zone?
What's it worth to me?
How do I do it right when everything feels so wrong?
How large is group supposed to be in order to provide the love, support and encouragement we need in life



The phrase "get out of the boat" ALWAYS brings to my mind the story of Peter walking on water to Jesus.

So the answer to your first question seemed to be - if Jesus is telling you to "come" YES!

It is NOT SAFE out in the water, but it's not safe in the boat either. When you notice that you're sinking, call to Jesus and he'll save you.

It seemed that I so OFTEN heard about "keeping your eyes on Jesus" being the lesson of that story, but I saw it so differently. Jesus didn't hesitate to pull Peter up, and didn't criticize him for his doubt until he was back in the boat with the eleven others who didn't have enough faith to even get out in the first place.

The only question that really matters is this:

Is Jesus calling you to step out of the boat?

[Timid]

Ok, just read the last section starting, with "The proper Role of community".
Honestly, I didn't even understand it.
:o

What I got from this portion of the article was that until we, as individuals, have a healthy relationship with God, then we as a community can't have a healthy relationship with God. It takes individuals who are totally committed to God and His ways to form a "Godly" community.

As it is now, churches are full of people who want to be spoon fed, rather than taking responsibility for their own relationship with Christ. It makes it an unhealthy organization.

This was the part of the article I really appreciated. :)

Timid

[ex-shep]

Hi SueJean. Jesus in Jn. 10 described Himself and the Good Shepherd and the fake shepherd as a "hireling".

THe characteristics of a 'hireling' are....

1. Anytime a hireling is given a choice, between saving a sheep or saving their position, they will always choose their position.

2. They treat the sheep roughly, trying to force them to follow blindly.

I'm glad you're not under that anymore and we can enjoy and excercise a little bit of our freedom we have in Christ. God bless you.

Am I ever guilty of that one. That my MO for years even after my groups. It was not a fun place to be and left me feeling as if I had been on a Greyhound bus for four days. My wife can be too much of a follower. I have to be careful that she has the chance to share her thoughts and feelings.

It does feel great to be out from that burden of legalism.

[luttrell03]

What I got from this portion of the article was that until we, as individuals, have a healthy relationship with God, then we as a community can't have a healthy relationship with God. It takes individuals who are totally committed to God and His ways to form a "Godly" community.

As it is now, churches are full of people who want to be spoon fed, rather than taking responsibility for their own relationship with Christ. It makes it an unhealthy organization.

This was the part of the article I really appreciated. :)

Timid

Now that makes more sense to me. Thanks Timid.

Thanks also Hope for your thoughts. Though Peter started to doubt and sink he still got out of the boat when he was called to. Great thought, it's not safe out of the boat nor is it safe inside.