sins/consequences/repentance

[Hope 98]

Thought it may help to acknowledge this bunny trail.

Granted sin is sin. Without repentance and forgiveness they all earn the death penalty eventually.

One more thing to consider about sin is.... because they are different, there are also different consequences. Some are worst than others. A price has to be paid now to varying degrees.

OK I understand what you're saying from a certain perspective - the one generally refered to as "unsaved".

But say that a person has been saved. It is generally acknowledged on this forum that we don't become instantly perfect in our behavior or thoughts.

So my questions are more like these:



Which behaviors require repentance to anyone other than God?
What exactly shows repentance?
Is it appropriate for church leadership to step into anyone's personal life with consequences of their own?
If so, which behaviors warrant that? (this is where if some sins are worse than others, which ones should be confronted?)

I'm just hoping to clarify my questions.

[simka2]

I agree with what Reg said sin is sin...but consequences vary.

For the christian when our sins are private (affecting only us) then I beleive they are between God and us. We can seek help and guidance from outside sources...but those sources need to respect the fact that these are personal and private...it is by free will that we seek help and by free will that we don't have to seek help.

When our sins affect another person(s) affairs...stealing...slander...things like that again I believe it involves the parties involved...and those we choose to bring in ONLY!

Unless there is a danger to oneself or another party...and I mean in the legal sense...that is the only time I believe...there should be church consequences...but again I think this is a natural consequence because all pastors (at least in the us) are mandatory reporters.

Now I'm thinking about that verse "bring him before the church and if he doesn't repent" (okay triggered myself) and am wondering what the original intent of it was? I might have to look into that....:rolleyes:

[beginagainrose]

Wow, Hope... this was really good! When my pastor's set the "sperm-donor" snare for my husband, so they could kick me out of the church for my book about adultery in the church (reminder: pastor thought I was going to expose his affair w/my boss'es wife), the elder board told us my husband was NOT "repentant" because he wasnt willing to forget all about his son and sign his parental rights away; a requirement by them to "validate" his repentance. Of course, he refused. Then when the pregnant woman's mother told me, "Well, I just dont understand why the pastors didnt do anything about my daughter when I warned them she had done this once before (that baby had died) and they said, "Let's just keep this quiet and pray about it"!... then we knew we had been had and it was all a grand conspiracy to be rid of us and there NEVER was a plan for reconcilliation of restoring us... I wrote a 4 page open letter to the elder board in that same meeting listing several ways and reasons why I knew my husband was repentant...and then called them on the carpet for knowing and doing NOTHING!.. THAT is when they "turned us over to Satan for the destruction of our flesh for the saving of our souls"!

Here is one more thought to take off from the great points you made...

what about this?..: sins/repentance/consequences

My experience with God is that even though I have come in true repentance to sin... I still live with consequences.

[Carmen]

That's a fine pot of worms you have opened up here.:eek::p

I agree with Simka, it depends on whether it is a private sin or one that affects others.

I think that there are sins that do affect others in a deeper way, such as adultery if the same person is caught at it again and again. Adultery can be a repeated offense and cause a lot of trouble in a community especially if the seducer is trying to convince a lot of different people in the community to sleep with him/her. That might be a reason for someone to be brought before the church and thrown out if they do not have a change of heart and drastically change their behavior. This would also go for domestic abusers as well (which churches too often do not want to get involved in).

If a pastor is trying to have you say ALL of yours sins in public then that is not warranted. Those involved in scientology go to auditing. They cry out their fears etc. in front of others and a camera. These auditing sessions can be used against them later for whatever reason.

I don't think that intrusion into one's personal life (as long as it doesn't affect others) would be warranted at all. I don't consider domestic violence a personal issue because the abuser often counts on people outside the immediate family not getting involved. But how could a man mistreat his wife and children so and still be able to worship in church? Only if he has no conscience and if no one holds him responsible for evil behavior.

[Hope 98]

Carmen, your post is most in line with the points that I think about.

Is the pregnancy of an unmarried woman a public or private sin? And what constitutes repentance - marriage?

Personally - I saw the acceptance of responsibility as repentance. She is living now with the baby she conceived and taking very good care of her. I feel the same about the baby's father at the very least, because the father can always say "it's not mine" and take off until a DNA test catches up with him.

There is a young woman with two children of one father who has not married but has maintained a committed relationship to the children's father. The first child is severely handicapped and apparently eligible for government assistance while her mom is single, but not necessarily or as completely if mom is married (to the best of my understanding). She was dropped from church membership because she lives with the father of her children who is acting like a husband and father in spite of the absence of a license. If they both are caring for each other and their children, after over 5 years, surely, "the worse" aspect of better or worse is pretty well covered in actual fact, if not legallity.

While I'm citing cases that are part of my life that pertain to premarital relationships, I feel similarly about other sinful behaviors. A big question as it relates to homosexuality is whether a person is guilty at the point of acknowledging homosexual desires and therefor subject to discipline, or only guilty when he or she acts on those desires. Does it matter if the action was consentual or not?

And domestic violence surely seems to be swept under the carpet more often than not, while I feel that it is something worth confronting in SOME way because it leaves children defenseless. I see women and children in those situations as the widows & orphans that Christianity is called to shelter and assist "in their affliction" even.

So yeah - there it is - a big can of worms.

If it all becomes too heated, I will understand if the thread is shut down. I'm hoping that isn't the case though because I feel this is a big part of what comes of spiritual abuse.

[JaniceB]

Personally - I saw the acceptance of responsibility as repentance.

Sounds like the best repentance to me. May that baby give her much joy through her life.:)

[beginagainrose]

Well, Hope... no wonder your are wrestling with these issues... what a wonderful mother to stand with your daughters so... I always marvel at mothers who do... mine didnt... or my dad for that matter. They "married me off" at 17 to an employee of my dad's; I think my new "husband" was mainly trying to keep his job! I was raped by a boyfriend and the 2nd time he came back to "see" me, I didnt fight or scream... there I was pregnant at 15. It took me alot of years and therapy to realize their concern was not for me, it was finding a warm body to take me and my baby girl off their hands. I must tell you, I was as responsible as I knew how to be for her. Married the poor schlep they wanted... it last 4 months until he said, "I cant do this" & walked out. Guilt brought him back a year later only to get me pregnant again and see him walk out again...for good that time. There I was married, divorced with 2 babies at 19. Trying to be "responsible"... but God was no where near a part of the equation. I decided that "God didn't work" after I saw my folks walk away from Him... church?... even less trustworthy. Years go by before I give God a thought...even then?

Then my baby girl ends up pregnant after I "imancipated" her and she moved out... only to come home pregnant a year later... at 18. I offered the father money for college and help to get started... then I saw my own heart; just like my folks did. I had had babies around since I was 16... was I really wanting to help them or just myself? I still dont know the answer to that question; maybe both. I had enough insecurities about being a mother; now a grandmother...at 35!?

So, whatever the spiritual issues are for your daughters, I think they have to wrestle those things out for themselves and that could take time; even years. It surely does take the wisdom of Solomon to know when to act and when not to; when to speak and when to keep silent and let them stand... or fall... on their own. But whatever the outcome; give yourself a break. You clearly love your girls, grandbabies and are being supportive of these fathers. I am guessing you have had your share of bloody knees even at this point in praying for them all.

All I can tell you is God's love, grace and mercy covered me then as a young mother and even later as a young grandmother. Yes, there were consequences, correction and alot of tears...but the Lord was always there even when I didnt give Him a thought. Keep asking, seeking and knocking... especially for your precious family... the answers will come. He will show you and your girls where the lines are drawn. Even if lines get crossed in the mix, His love will be there. You have His Word on it.:)

[simka2]

Hope it sounds like your daughter is doing great!!!! I'm so proud of you both!!!
In regards to the homosexuality thing...and again just my opinion... that it is a private matter so long as were talking about consenting adults...no minors or power plays going on. I find it very difficult to put more weight on let's say a young woman confessing lesbian temptations...than a young man admitting to lusting after woman. Again, I think its much more important to care about the heart and the whys than anything else.

Consequences happen...thats a part of life...some are natural and appropriate...and some are harsher than should be metted out...and some people get away with things here on earth.

I have to believe that for those who experience undue consequences...they will be compensated in heaven...sort of like Lazarus and the rich man. And those who don't will recieve their consequences after death...not entirely sure how that all works out...but its what I think at the moment!

[Hope 98]

Hope it sounds like your daughter is doing great!!!! I'm so proud of you both!!!


Thank you!!

We're having a stressful few weeks here as Mommy & Daddy strive to wrap up & graduate high school, and then get married! We're trying to put together a small scale, but meaningful celebration.

My daughter says that taking care of the baby is way harder than she imagined, but she is also very happy to her. I am very proud of her too!

[beginagainrose]

May the Lord bless this precious, young couple... young just mean young...

I saw something in the T.D. Jakes movie not long ago; Not Easily Broken... in the marriage ceremony, the pastor marrying the young couple placed 3 strand cord drapped from one shoulder of the bride around both their backs to come across the shoulder of the groom as he read that verse, a cord of 3 strands is not easily broken; he wanted to establish covenant as the center of their marriage... I thought that was really beautiful and unique.. just an idea.

Lord, I pray You will indeed be the 3rd strand in the marriage of this dear couple. Though they are young, Lord, I pray You would cover, protect, bless and keep them from the evil one all their days. May they be like a Light set on a hill to other young couples as an example of what can be accomplished when they look to You and honor You. Bless their precious child and give them great wisdom as parents. Bless Hope and her family with wisdom as they support this marriage and give them joy in the journey. May You be glorified in the lives of this family.... In your sweet name, Jesus. Amen

God richly bless you and your family, Hope.:)

[Reg]

Thought it may help to acknowledge this bunny trail.



OK I understand what you're saying from a certain perspective - the one generally refered to as "unsaved".

But say that a person has been saved. It is generally acknowledged on this forum that we don't become instantly perfect in our behavior or thoughts.

So my questions are more like these:



Which behaviors require repentance to anyone other than God?
What exactly shows repentance?
Is it appropriate for church leadership to step into anyone's personal life with consequences of their own?
If so, which behaviors warrant that? (this is where if some sins are worse than others, which ones should be confronted?)

I'm just hoping to clarify my questions.
Hope,

Good questions from an inquiring mind. Hope I can give you some good answers. :)

Not to get too deeply into this, just think about the legal system. When you break the law, there are different penalties for different crimes. For instance, murder may require the death penalty while stealing may require X number of years in prison. This works for everyone regardless of being saved or not.

Taking it a step farther as the previous comments have done a good job doing, you enter the spiritual dimension. All sin carries with it automatic penalties. Some more severe than others. Some are physical consequences such as stealing. You may end up in jail. When you lie, you may ruin your reputation. The ones we consider lesser sins have an affect on our conscience. So we pay the price of no peace of mind.

Repentance means we are convicted of something that we did was wrong. We want to correct the wrong. We don't want to do it again. We are sorry that we did it. We take steps to insure it doesn't happen again. We ask for forgiveness. If it was done to someone else, we confess to them and say we were wrong and ask for forgiveness. We want to restore the relationship.

Those other sins that don't affect others but affect us we do the same with God. We want to restore the relationship. That's what repentance does. It changes the course of our lives and wants to reconcile the wrongs.

As far as church leadership goes, when someone's behaviours affects others in the congregation to a large degree there is a Biblical example in 1 Cor 5.
1 Cor 6 expands on this.

Rarely should a church leader step into a person's personal life. We live and die unto the Lord. We have our being in Him

Ac 17:28 "for in Him we live and move and have our being, as also some of your own poets have said, ‘For we are also His offspring.’

Who can righteously judge us but Him?

Ac 20:28 Gives a warning to church leaders to "take heed to yourselves" how they shepherd the church of God.

Couple this with....
2Ch 19:6 and said to the judges, "Take heed to what you are doing, for you do not judge for man but for the LORD, who [is] with you in the judgment.

God is the one who they represent and He is watching how well this is done.

This is how they are to carry their leadership. As shepherds of the flock.

1Pe 5:2 Shepherd the flock of God which is among you, serving as overseers, not by compulsion but willingly, not for dishonest gain but eagerly;
1Pe 5:3 nor as being lords over those entrusted to you, but being examples to the flock;

[Carmen]

All sin carries with it automatic penalties. Some more severe than others. Some are physical consequences such as stealing. You may end up in jail. When you lie, you may ruin your reputation. The ones we consider lesser sins have an affect on our conscience. So we pay the price of no peace of mind.

Repentance means we are convicted of something that we did was wrong. We want to correct the wrong. We don't want to do it again. We are sorry that we did it. We take steps to insure it doesn't happen again. We ask for forgiveness. If it was done to someone else, we confess to them and say we were wrong and ask for forgiveness. We want to restore the relationship.

I agree, Reg. Sometimes the sin wasn't ours at all, as in the case of rape, but we carry the penalty anyway. I think that is just how it is in this world. I think it is that way so that we all realize the full extent of how our sins in life affect others, sometimes in a cascade. We cause them to suffer, and they cause us to suffer, not always intentionally. It is a good incentive to be repentant for those who have conscience.

[Reg]

I agree, Reg. Sometimes the sin wasn't ours at all, as in the case of rape, but we carry the penalty anyway. I think that is just how it is in this world. I think it is that way so that we all realize the full extent of how our sins in life affect others, sometimes in a cascade. We cause them to suffer, and they cause us to suffer, not always intentionally. It is a good incentive to be repentant for those who have conscience.
Exactly Carmen. We are paying the price for living in a fallen world. Humanity by-in-large is learning the lesson of what it's like living without God. The more the secular world pushes Him out of their lives, the worst it's going to get. I'm reading a book about how this has been happening. It talks about the separation of church and state and what happens when either encroaches the other. There is always a delicate balance between the two.

There's a terrific chapter about what happened in Nazi Germany when this happened. It documents what happened to Deitrich Boenhoffer & the Christians during that period of time. I've taken some quotes and will post them when I finish it.

The most important thing is to have a clear conscience before God. He knows what is happening and will repay in His own time.

[Carmen]

The most important thing is to have a clear conscience before God. He knows what is happening and will repay in His own time.

Amen.:)

The book sounds interesting...I'm drooling already. :D I also am preparing to comment on a book I'm reading now, if I can ever get my schoolwork done and finish the book...

[Reg]

Amen.:)

The book sounds interesting...I'm drooling already. :D I also am preparing to comment on a book I'm reading now, if I can ever get my schoolwork done and finish the book...
Maybe this will wet your appetite until I post about it.......

Kingdoms in Conflict
http://www.amazon.com/Kingdoms-Conflict-Charles-W-Colson/dp/0310397715