Dealing with family

[luttrell03]

Hi everyone. Thought I'd throw this out, though I've mentioned it before.... for some more feedback.
Though obviously we have left our former church my wife's sister and her husband still attend.
Every 2 to 3 weeks my wife and her sister get into a battle concerning the church although numberous times we have asked and agreed NOT TO BRING THE ISSUE UP WHEN WE ARE ALL TOGETHER!!

The arguement: The sister believes we were wrong and are not obeying God by leaving the church (almost a year ago).

She sees clearly that the leadership has problems and 'blindspots' but she feels the right attitude is to forgive them and exemplify the love of God to them BY STAYING:
She views leaving the church as just a very reactionary way to deal with the situation. The pastor and his wife have convinced her that we reacted wrongly and that they (pastor and wife) attempted to 'reconcile' with us.

The truth is, the pastor did try to initiate with us a few times but never in order to discuss and talk about real issues (the hurt, etc.).
Another time, we did agree to get together and talk. Then later they called us back and said they were bringing one of their elders to act as a mediator between us.

They picked the mediator (we didn't get to help choose) and honestly we didn't trust their mediator because we feel his job was only to side with the pastor as all the elders have done in the past.

The pastor also told me that he wanted to bring the mediator so, that the mediator could hear all the terrible things I said to the pastor. In other words I felt he only wanted a mediator to catch me in my words and prove me wrong. That's not what a mediator is for??? It should be a person that both parties are comfortable with and who is objective and neutral to both sides.

I also invited the pastor over to my house once to talk and the conversation went NO WHERE. I shared what hurt me and my family to him and all he did was excuse himself and avoid the root problems. He again just ended up blaming me indirectly for being too sensitive about the issues,,,,, no remorse from his side.
Yet, he sends us birthday cards as his way to reach out to us.
I think if he was really concerned about the situation, he would of simply called and said, "Hey, we gotta talk now", or come over himself (he lives less than a mile from me) to have a heart to heart talk....that is if he really claims to have attempted to reconcile with us as he's told my In-Laws.

Many people at my former church think like my family. They see the problems but they feel that they should stick in there hoping that someday things will change, or that the leadership will step down and be replaced. I'm not necessarily saying their wrong and I don't condemn them for that decision, but I'm asking, could this be the right attitude or could they be, 'playing with fire'? My view up till now was that once you've realized that you're are in an abusive church, or a personality cult, THAT YOU SHOULD GET OUT AS QUICKLY AS YOU CAN.

The verses that are used in support of staying in the church by others are for example, 'LOVE HOPES ALL
THINGS' 'LOVE DOES NOT FAIL' , 'so we shouldn't give up on people but believe God will change them someday.

QUESTION. IN LIGHT OF ABUSE HOW CAN ONE BALANCE THIS??? Is there validation in the NT that supports a person running away, getting out, from an abusive situation, or because of , ' LOve hope all things' and other verses on 'forbearance' are we just supposed to ENDURE abuse and wait till God takes care of it in a local church? I know a bit of a stupid question as if I've learned nothing till now,,,,but the In-Laws are just relentless towards us concerning this theme and use it to show that we ARE OFF with God,,,,as well as others we've met.
I see that of course some of their problem is that the church here has become an idol in their thinking. I want though to be sensitive to what SHOULD BE MY PROBLEM.


Many have the view that THERE IS NO OTHER PLACE IN THE CITY TO GO BESIDES THIS ONE CHURCH.

I tell you, I know I'm the more sensitive type but these fights with my in-laws really emotionally effect and almost seem to torture me.
Our family doesn't support us and constantly reminds us now about a year and a half later that basically we are acting IN DEFIANCE TO GOD'S WILL.

Sorry, I know this is long but maybe you all can give more insight into this.

[luttrell03]

Sorry all. I again realized that I had already brought this topic up earlier. Its just repeats itself and then I get confused again. Plus, in venting it out my thread is way too long to read.

[Jerry]

Dear Lutrell,,,,
So your inlaws twist scripture and rub your nose in it,,,,,,,happens to the best of us ;) How about turning it back on them ???? Just tell them you know that your right then lay a quote of your own on them..........."A Prophet is not without honor,except in his own house" ;)

Love Jerry

[JaniceB]

Many have the view that THERE IS NO OTHER PLACE IN THE CITY TO GO BESIDES THIS ONE CHURCH.

This attitude is a big huge blazing neon sign of an abusive organization--church or otherwise. Stay the heck away from them!

[simka2]

Lutrell...I may not be the best person to respond to this...but I have been there...:( My brother in-law was still the worship pastor when we left....uuugghhh. We actually took a much stronger line with our family...but we could because there was the sexual assault issue. On the flip side we took the stronger line without disclosing the flip side. Here's what happened...when we realized that this was a form of abuse and manipulation we realized that this was extremely unhealthy for us to be around even indirectly...the emotional toll is incrediable...and we had to be concerned that our pastor was basically keeping tabs on us thru our family...

We came to the conclusion that so long as my in-laws continued to make poor choices (continueing to support said pastor) AFTER being made aware of the unhealthy dynamics...then they we could not continue in relatonship with them. This was a really sad moment for us :( But we had to consider our emotional well being and that of our kids.

We left the ball in their court and they choose to stay loyal to our abuser...we are presently not in contact with husbands parents :( This is very sad...and we've been vilified and shamed for it...but it's been so GOOD for our family!!! We are a much closer unit and there is a lot less drama.

If you look at the dynamics of an unhealthy church or family there is some overlap...weak boundaires...don't talk rules...things like that...

As far as the bible goes it gets tough because your abusive church has no issues with taking a scripture and stripping it of it's heart...then turning it in to rod to beat or intimidate you with!

Instead we have had to learn that just because someone say's their christian doesn't mean their actions are...even if they have a bible verse to back it up with!!!!

And just because we don't have a specific verse but have the HEART doesn't mean were in the wrong :)

I would ask you to consider setting boundaires and even though you said you have I would have to ask if they are being enforced!!! What is the consequence if someone violates your boundaires? If you agree on certain boundaires and they violate them are they acting in love? did they lie when they agreed to the boundaries?

Hope that helps somewhat!!!! I'm sorry your faced with this...it's painful...it was only yesterday that Ifinally explained to one of my kids that we don't see their grandparents at this moment because they hurt us. Were open to a healthy relationship...but until our family takes some steps in that direction we have to do whats healthiest for us...okay I'll stop now :)

[Carmen]

Even though some of this might have been addressed I still think that the issue may be a hot one for others that come here.

Many people at my former church think like my family. They see the problems but they feel that they should stick in there hoping that someday things will change, or that the leadership will step down and be replaced. I'm not necessarily saying their wrong and I don't condemn them for that decision, but I'm asking, could this be the right attitude or could they be, 'playing with fire'? My view up till now was that once you've realized that you're are in an abusive church, or a personality cult, THAT YOU SHOULD GET OUT AS QUICKLY AS YOU CAN.

The verses that are used in support of staying in the church by others are for example, 'LOVE HOPES ALL
THINGS' 'LOVE DOES NOT FAIL' , 'so we shouldn't give up on people but believe God will change them someday.

QUESTION. IN LIGHT OF ABUSE HOW CAN ONE BALANCE THIS??? Is there validation in the NT that supports a person running away, getting out, from an abusive situation, or because of , ' LOve hope all things' and other verses on 'forbearance' are we just supposed to ENDURE abuse and wait till God takes care of it in a local church? I know a bit of a stupid question as if I've learned nothing till now,,,,but the In-Laws are just relentless towards us concerning this theme and use it to show that we ARE OFF with God,,,,as well as others we've met.

I think you are right in getting out of a church if abuse is evident. The effects of abuse, any kind of abuse, on the psyche can be devastating and often are.

To put this in perspective:

I am a survivor of domestic violence and fled a foreign country with the children two years ago to escape. Would you stay if your spouse has threatened your life and that of your children? Of course not! We were subjected to verbal and emotional abuse for years before that - which I did not recognize as abuse at the time.

I would tell anyone to flee from any kind of abuse.

There are crackpot pastors that will tell women to put their lives and those of their children in danger to stay with an abusive husband. They use the very same scriptures to justify that as the ones that you have been presented with to justify your staying in an abusive church environment. That is a misinterpretation of scripture that must stink to high heaven. I'd like to see them confront God with their reasoning.

Those pastors don't belong there. We are the body of Christ on this earth, his arms, his legs, his mouth. I believe that God will do something about it - through us. People wait for "God to do something about it." He has. He has put his spirit in us and we represent him here. If the salt of the earth loses its saltiness, what then? It will be thrown out onto the path and will be trampled. Those in that church have lost their saltiness. They can't do themselves any good, much less someone else. Let them get trampled. You won't be since you are out of there. I'm sorry that your family is involved. :(

As with any kind of abuse it takes an eye-opener for the victim to see it. They also have to be so sick of it that they wake up and say, "No more!" They have apparently not reached that point. Their false interpretation of scripture is also keeping them in the spiritually abusive relationship as it has kept many in domestically abusive relationships. You can present them with literature about spiritual abuse written by a person with some authority that they would listen to, like a pastor. They may read it or not. Some have even banned it from their churches after becoming aware that such literature exists.

People that are involved in an abusive relationship that are somewhat aware of the abuse are often still in denial. They know that if they see a real problem with what is happening to them then they have to do something about it. So they minimize the danger, the effects, whatever. They have to wait until they "have it up to there" and can't take any more of it. Who knows how long that will take.

[beginagainrose]

OOOOOO, Luttrell... this made me so angry... you have SO been set up by this pastor!... and the BD card things smells like some kind of "gleeful, sadistic" neener-neener to me. Like he is playing a part to keep your family on his side. The elder board "mediator" was such a huge "tell" of where his heart is! GRRRRRRRRR!!! As for some NT backup from the Word... check out the book of Acts... Paul had disputes and people went there separate ways; wasnt it with Mark... and Barnabus tried to mediate? You sister-in-law is beating you guys up with the "god-club"... I just heard an awesome sermon about this online Sunday: David Jeremiah at Shadow Mountain Comm. Church in San Diego; he is doing a series on Job and his "friends"...even talked about the "god-club"... I LOVED your term "personality cult"... that really rang true with what I have experienced. THANK you for that insight! Your posts since you have been here seem to me a very clear confirmation as a humble, kind, generous guy who is willing to own his own stuff... stand firm is my encouragement to you and your wife. God is opposed to the proud and gives grace to the humbe so you two just be patient for God to deal with the "bag of chips" in the mix... including your sisterinlaw.:)

[luttrell03]

Thanks everybody. I've read every thread and gained something from each. I'm amazed what some of you have been through and yet still are going forward. My situation pails in comparison to some here.

I do get very confused sometimes by this situation but I do need to step in the game and communicate more clearly and set clearer boundaries. I think I'll also try Jerry's suggestion (cool) as well as check out that message Rose suggested; using the god-club.
That's exactly how we feel in the situation.

[ex-shep]

The only church in town is the group? I shudder at the thought. I had the double issue of my folks not letting me grow up and the bible school not allowing me my personal autonomy. I finally had to move out of state to break free from the abuse. For me, I am glad I did, not only did I get people who came out of similar groups, I got into the rooms of several step groups. I was able to find a new freedom. It was worth saving up for.

I have to remember I deserve to be treated with dignity and respect.

[luttrell03]

Our family doesn't support us and constantly reminds us now about a year and a half later that basically we are acting IN DEFIANCE TO GOD'S WILL.

You' all probably don't care much but for my own sake I just wanted to re-state here that it's not my 'whole family' who's against my wife and I as I mistakingly quoted. I re-read what I wrote and I obviously exaggerrated however that happened.
It mostly has to do with one particular In-Law.....the one who had personal/private conversations with the pastor and his wife. Just for my own conscience's sake I wanted to clarify that and not include my whole family under that statement. Actually many other family members, thank God, have supported us,,,,,though they are concerned for us still. They are hoping that we eventually go to a church somewhere (although we 'go' meet our house with a few folks):D

I think some of the 'cloudiness' that happens concerning this particular church is that most people wouldn't define it as an abusive church but merely as a church and leadership that has blind spots and character issues, things that can happen daily in any normal imperfect church. In fact, most see the church as the best option in the city because all the other churches have even supposedly worse problems.

Many members who've been there long enough will admit that they see an over-authoritarian or control problem but wouldn't go as far as to say the church has persoanlity cult-like characteristics or outright manipulative or abusive tendencies.
Maybe many don't really understand the seriousness of influence that comes from being under such a system. Others do feel that they should 'hang in there' until God changes something......a decision that everyone has the right to of course.

But that's interesting......What is the drawing line between a church that is just dealing with blind spots, character issues and one that is plain out generating toxic faith??
I know for many here that would be a duuuuuuuh question because the abuse has been soo severe and blatant in many cases. But in my particular situation it seems that the majority don't see it 'that bad'. In fact, missionaries come for long visits and seem to not notice anything 'unusual about the service.
IN general, problems yes, like any imperfect church,, but abuse?....they would call that a bit radical. IN my case I'm convinced its abusive but of course you are left to doubt yourself often when you're alone. Maybe it just has to do with different 'degrees' of abuse but it still all comes under the same heading.

[JaniceB]

I think some of the 'cloudiness' that happens concerning this particular church is that most people wouldn't define it as an abusive church but merely as a church and leadership that has blind spots and character issues, things that can happen daily in any normal imperfect church. In fact, most see the church as the best option in the city because all the other churches have even supposedly worse problems.

If they think they're the only game in town there is nothing cloudy about it. It's abusive. People in the church are in denial. People who've never been in the church are ignorant. People who leave the church have a clue. Who says the other churches have worse problems? Which other churches? Those in the same denomination or completely different churches?

Often people in recovery see boundaries with a family member means breaking off the relationship but it doesn't have to be that way. At one point in my recovery I asked my mother for a "vacation" and it was so good for me. She was mad but she got over it.

As to love, okay since they brought it up. We don't do abusers any favors by letting them live in the sin of abuse without taking the consequences. To love an abuser means to put your foot down very firmly. Believe me, I've loved way too many of them.

[luttrell03]

If they think they're the only game in town there is nothing cloudy about it. It's abusive. People in the church are in denial. People who've never been in the church are ignorant. People who leave the church have a clue. Who says the other churches have worse problems? Which other churches? Those in the same denomination or completely different churches?

Often people in recovery see boundaries with a family member means breaking off the relationship but it doesn't have to be that way. At one point in my recovery I asked my mother for a "vacation" and it was so good for me. She was mad but she got over it.

As to love, okay since they brought it up. We don't do abusers any favors by letting them live in the sin of abuse without taking the consequences. To love an abuser means to put your foot down very firmly. Believe me, I've loved way too many of them.

Excellent Janice.

[simka2]

Lutrell back to the question of is it blind spots or abuse...I'm not sure...but I think it has to go with how much POWER this leader holds. If members can AKNOWLEDGE that there are blind spot or some ISSUES and not shame others who would rather not subject themselves to that...I don't have to big a problem with that.

But when an athoritarian pastor begins to weild power to control people personal choices and is able to merit out some form of punishment if his rule is not followed then we have a problem!!!! Please don't take this as a black and white answer because some of the words I've used like...punishment...control...and personal choices...are very GRAY issues.

I don't think pastors EVER have the right to shame...control...label their sheep!

[Timid]

The arguement: The sister believes we were wrong and are not obeying God by leaving the church (almost a year ago).

Your sister is not in authority over you. What she says is her opinion. Doesn't make her wrong, but it doesn't make her right either. As has been said on this thread, setting up boundaries with her would be good for you. But you need to be able to carry through with whatever consequence you set up for her. Sitting down with her one on one and telling her what is happening in your heart is important. Then letting her know lovingly that boundaries are being set up, and she needs to respect them and you by staying within those boundaries.


I also invited the pastor over to my house once to talk and the conversation went NO WHERE. I shared what hurt me and my family to him and all he did was excuse himself and avoid the root problems. He again just ended up blaming me indirectly for being too sensitive about the issues,,,,, no remorse from his side.

You did what you were supposed to do. You tried to communicate with him. It sounds like he wouldn't accept responsibility for his actions.

But I am more concerned about what I bolded. The pastor is the head of the church. If there is an analogy, he would be the parent of a large family. I am a mom to two beautiful young ladies. The oldest is tough as nails and I have to get in her face to get her to listen. She is not scared of anything and has a boldness that totally amazes me. She is very strong and is not easily intimidated.

My other daughter is quite the opposite. She is easily wounded, tender hearted, and very loving. If I got in her face the way I need to get in her older sister's face she would be devastated, and absolutely crushed.

As a parent, I need to be aware of each of my daughter's personalities and what works best for each of them. I must treat them as individuals and be respectful of their individual needs.

The pastor, when he blamed you for being too sensitive, was not being respectful of you. He also didn't acknowledge that he had responsibilities to you. God put on him the responsibility of loving you, caring for you, and bringing you closer to God. He failed in that when he didn't respect your needs as an individual, even after you communicated your concerns to him.

And another thought, why is reconciling all on your shoulders? The Bible clearly says that if you know your brother has "ought" with you, you need to go and reconcile with him. (Matthew 5:23-24) The pastor knows that he has not reconciled with you. As the leader of that church it is also on his shoulders to reconcile with you. The way it sounds right now everyone is pressuring you and the pastor is the "victim". So I would ask your sister when you talk to her next if she is pressuring the pastor as strongly as she is pressuring you.

The verses that are used in support of staying in the church by others are for example, 'LOVE HOPES ALL THINGS' 'LOVE DOES NOT FAIL' , 'so we shouldn't give up on people but believe God will change them someday.

QUESTION. IN LIGHT OF ABUSE HOW CAN ONE BALANCE THIS??? Is there validation in the NT that supports a person running away, getting out, from an abusive situation, or because of , ' LOve hope all things' and other verses on 'forbearance' are we just supposed to ENDURE abuse and wait till God takes care of it in a local church?

Ok. Let's put the bolded part in context with the verses around it. In fact here are the verses.

1 Corinthians 13
1 If I could speak all the languages of earth and of angels, but didn’t love others, I would only be a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. 2 If I had the gift of prophecy, and if I understood all of God’s secret plans and possessed all knowledge, and if I had such faith that I could move mountains, but didn’t love others, I would be nothing. 3 If I gave everything I have to the poor and even sacrificed my body, I could boast about it; but if I didn’t love others, I would have gained nothing.
4 Love is patient and kind. Love is not jealous or boastful or proud 5 or rude. It does not demand its own way. It is not irritable, and it keeps no record of being wronged. 6 It does not rejoice about injustice but rejoices whenever the truth wins out. 7 Love never gives up, never loses faith, is always hopeful, and endures through every circumstance.

The whole premise of these verses is that without love, nothing anyone does is any good. Your pastor did not show love when he dealt with you. Your sister is not showing love with her pressuring and arguing with you. Consider asking her what the verses before "Love never gives up, never loses faith, is always hopeful, and endures through every circumstance" say.

See relationships are two way streets. Each party must give 150%. If one party neglects their responsibilities, then the other party is wounded. Your ex-pastor has some responsibilities to pick up and carry again. And he and his supporters need to hear you rather than judge you.

You stand strong luttrell03. God has not forgotten you. The body of christ is a bit ill right now, but God is still in control even when we don't understand why things happen the way they do. I still have questions and hurts myself. But just because I don't trust people, doesn't mean I have given up on God. I encourage you to hang on to God.

[Anna Marta]

Just got home last night so I am not awake yet, but wanted to throw out a comment.

When dealing with family, there is the added "problem" of LOVE. Darn it, we do love our family and we so very much want to have their approval. Disapproval from close family hurts - a lot :( - and feels dangerously like rejection.

Luttrell, there are times in life when each of us has to stand on their own for the good of the tribe. This is one of them for you. Remember you are not bucking the family or God just to be rebellious, you are being the man and protector of your loved ones that God has called you to be. Be patient with those who do not yet understand the danger of SA. Keep in mind that this is not about you or your wife, it IS about protecting something precious and that God himself smiles at your efforts to do so with your humble heart in the right and loving way.

A crisis helps us to come to terms with who we are from the deepest levels of our heart and soul. Because we "react instinctively" as opposed to having the luxury of a well thought out plan or cool head, God permits us to discover what lies under our carefully constructed exteriors.

We see the Godly parts of ourselves which we can thank God for instilling in us because we see them they surface without thought.

We also find out what we need to work on that does not reflect a Christlike perspective.

IMHO it is important to evaluate myself and my reactions and actions. Abusers will always be with us, as will cheaters and betrayers... it is because of these negative experiences which we cannot avoid that we learn to build our personhood.

Christ warned us that we would have trouble in this world; it rejected Him and will do the same to us... BUT HE also told us that He overcame the world. The questions for me are:
How did He do that?
How can I also do it?

Warmly,
AM

[dougjb]

Hi luttrell,
After reading the posts, I am be a bit redundant here but I want to add a few things. If there authoritarian or control issues, it may go a long ways in explaining the pastors actions. The pastor may have wanted reconciliation but of the type that is on his terms in order that he just not lose power or control. In the end, there is no real reconciliation rather shut up and get back in line and of course you the one who is wrong.
It sounds like the congregation has been pretty much pacified with no idea how to deal with problems like this so they end up lingering. As far as that relative who is badgering you all the time. What I do with people like that is tell them to their face, "I will never come back to this church on account of someone badgering me or using anyother strong arm method." So stop it.

dougjb
some food for thought

[simka2]

A crisis helps us to come to terms with who we are from the deepest levels of our heart and soul. Because we "react instinctively" as opposed to having the luxury of a well thought out plan or cool head, God permits us to discover what lies under our carefully constructed exteriors.




AM what an amazing thought!!!! I was just telling Hubby last night that he seems so much more secure in who he is now...couldn't quite put my finger on why...but I think this has something to do with it!

[luttrell03]

Hi luttrell,
After reading the posts, I am be a bit redundant here but I want to add a few things. If there authoritarian or control issues, it may go a long ways in explaining the pastors actions. The pastor may have wanted reconciliation but of the type that is on his terms in order that he just not lose power or control. In the end, there is no real reconciliation rather shut up and get back in line and of course you the one who is wrong.
It sounds like the congregation has been pretty much pacified with no idea how to deal with problems like this so they end up lingering. As far as that relative who is badgering you all the time. What I do with people like that is tell them to their face, "I will never come back to this church on account of someone badgering me or using anyother strong arm method." So stop it.

dougjb
some food for thought

Doug, you have no idea how accurately you explained my situation and the church. You must have the gift of discernment;)
That's why it's been soo bothersome when we recieve birthday cards, etc. from the pastor although we never reconciled.

He feels fine in sending cards because he feels that he's reconciled, done his part, washed his hands of any guilt.
For us, getting a card from him after all this time is just putting salt again in the wound.
It's somehow sending us the signal, "Well, I don't have a problem here, I am straight before God....if you guys have a problem,,well that's your problem"! The fact that we stay away is also proof to him and my In-law that WE are the problem.

But I realized awhile back that he only wants to reconcile on his terms and you sense that the underlying motive for every action he takes is to protect his church order, or in my opinion the/his system, his 'baby'. As you so accurately stated, you either put out, put up with, or get out. There are no other options.

People who've been around there long enough are slowly learning this and are grieved in their hearts yet don't know how to deal with this pastor. They've seen what's happened with the individuals who tried to confront him on issues.....either all gone or stifled to silence. It's a bit sad.

Thanks again everybody for your wisdom and help on this. I really consider this place my e-church. Glad to have you back also AM. Thanks

[JaniceB]

I really consider this place my e-church.

Oh, me too! I'm not just tolerated here but accepted. Many churches wouldn't even tolerate me.

[Anna Marta]

AMEN! Janice and Luttrell!!! :D

[simka2]

The elders of the church that spiritually abused us tried to continue that abuse for a short period of time after the senior pastor resigned. I remember that they sent my husband a letter in regards to the senior pastors resignation. They sent this letter to all the staff the pastor had forced to resign. So some told us the gist of the letter...basically they were telling us that we were forbidden from talking to the sheep during this tough time...and they knew we would refrain because "we all want untiy!"

Finally our letter came...we returned it to sender! You see these people didn't stand withus and didn't protect us from sa pastor...they had no buisness contacting us. When I realized that I also realized that we did not have to recieve their mail.

Interesting point...about two months later...sa pastor had burned his bridges with old church...we recieved a quasi-apologize from the new senior pastoron our facebook. I say quasi because it was all based on jon bevere's Honors Rewards...were he basicaly said "were sorry if we didn't honor you a shepherds as we should have."

My wholepoint insharing this I guess was to ask "what would happen if you sent the cards back?"

[luttrell03]

The elders of the church that spiritually abused us tried to continue that abuse for a short period of time after the senior pastor resigned. I remember that they sent my husband a letter in regards to the senior pastors resignation. They sent this letter to all the staff the pastor had forced to resign. So some told us the gist of the letter...basically they were telling us that we were forbidden from talking to the sheep during this tough time...and they knew we would refrain because "we all want untiy!"

Finally our letter came...we returned it to sender! You see these people didn't stand withus and didn't protect us from sa pastor...they had no buisness contacting us. When I realized that I also realized that we did not have to recieve their mail.

Interesting point...about two months later...sa pastor had burned his bridges with old church...we recieved a quasi-apologize from the new senior pastoron our facebook. I say quasi because it was all based on jon bevere's Honors Rewards...were he basicaly said "were sorry if we didn't honor you a shepherds as we should have."

My wholepoint insharing this I guess was to ask "what would happen if you sent the cards back?"

I don't know Simka. I don't know if it would do anything except reeinforce that fact in the pastor's mind we are 'bitter' or are holding a grudge in light of him reaching out to us.

This is a very tactical strategy of him. He wins, in the temporary, emotional sphere (although there are no winners here) no matter what we do.

If we send the cards back, again it's shows to them our 'unreconcilatory' revengeful attidute. He uses the fact that he's 'reached out' to us as proof for others to see (if people ask).

I guess the easiest option for us is just to expel of the card as soon as we get it.
Actually he was offended, so we heard, the last few times that he's sent cards to us and we've given no response. He doesn't like that if you don't respond back to his cards or text messages.
It may be that the card sending is over.
I am though always open to a real, transparent, heart to heart talk in a spirit of meekness. Sending cards aren't necessary.

[simka2]

I understand the position you find yourself and in...and I'm sorry your there :)

Your absolutely right that in the short run it seems to reinforve this pastors position. The situationI found myself in was a bit different also in that we were advised by senior leaders in our denomination to cut contact.

Now during the severance phase if pastor emailed and tried to keep tabs on us dh would give a very short rsponse..."were doing fine...thanks for asking." This would infuriated pastor and we were accused of being bitter, unloving all kinds of things.

Somewhere... I began to realize that nothing I did, short of, doing things the abusive pastor wanted...would keep me from his accusations. Then the realization came that even when I did everything he wanted still the accusations came. There is no way to please an abuser or to stop him fromthinking ill of you. Whats worse is that I was not only person he was doing this to.

That gets me thinking...in the subtle power of spiritual abuse...he talks about finding other people that already left the church. There something healing and helpful in doing that...it widens your base of support.

We began to think about all the people pastor had labeled "bitter" "unwilling to heal" "controlling" and "jezebels"...we began to find these people and talk with them. WOW!!!! I took great courage from them!!! They had lived thru and survived what I was walking thru.

Again though, I very much respect the differences in our situations...what was right for me...may be wrong for you...and that's A okay!!!!!

Also the letter we sent back was from the elders after pastor left...so a bit different there...

Isn't it amazing that they can get so offended about us "not" responding to something...and then turn around and label us as bitter :)

[beginagainrose]

Lutty... it's all about playing the game... the only winning move is still not to play!:)

[luttrell03]

I understand the position you find yourself and in...and I'm sorry your there :)

Your absolutely right that in the short run it seems to reinforve this pastors position. The situationI found myself in was a bit different also in that we were advised by senior leaders in our denomination to cut contact.

Now during the severance phase if pastor emailed and tried to keep tabs on us dh would give a very short rsponse..."were doing fine...thanks for asking." This would infuriated pastor and we were accused of being bitter, unloving all kinds of things.

Somewhere... I began to realize that nothing I did, short of, doing things the abusive pastor wanted...would keep me from his accusations. Then the realization came that even when I did everything he wanted still the accusations came. There is no way to please an abuser or to stop him fromthinking ill of you. Whats worse is that I was not only person he was doing this to.

That gets me thinking...in the subtle power of spiritual abuse...he talks about finding other people that already left the church. There something healing and helpful in doing that...it widens your base of support.

We began to think about all the people pastor had labeled "bitter" "unwilling to heal" "controlling" and "jezebels"...we began to find these people and talk with them. WOW!!!! I took great courage from them!!! They had lived thru and survived what I was walking thru.

Again though, I very much respect the differences in our situations...what was right for me...may be wrong for you...and that's A okay!!!!!

Also the letter we sent back was from the elders after pastor left...so a bit different there...

Isn't it amazing that they can get so offended about us "not" responding to something...and then turn around and label us as bitter :)

Simka, despite the differences I'm still amazed by the similarities in our story. It shows me that what I experienced was really SA because you describe the same characteristics, yet you live thousands of miles away.

Now during the severance phase if pastor emailed and tried to keep tabs on us dh would give a very short rsponse..."were doing fine...thanks for asking." This would infuriated pastor and we were accused of being bitter, unloving all kinds of things.

Exactly what happened to us. We would also respond in the same way, very short responses. Of course, why would you hang your heart out on your sleeve when nothing has been biblically, honestly dealt with. This pastor responded the same as your former p. He would be inappropriately offended by the the lack of response. Why? I believe because such a pastor EXPECTS PEOPLE TO GIVE HIM A CERTAIN QUALITY OF ATTENTION AND HONOR/WORSHIP.
His faithful followers give it to him in intoxicating doses, so when someone comes along and doesn't relate the same way, he's a bit offended.

That gets me thinking...in the subtle power of spiritual abuse...he talks about finding other people that already left the church. There something healing and helpful in doing that...it widens your base of support.

Funny you mention this because our very relaxed, informal house meeting we have is small but almost all are former members of this church.
You're right. One of the most encouraging points on this lonely road is getting confirmation from others who also experienced the same abuse.
One of the worst characteristics of power abuse is that the abused is made to feel like the mad man/woman, the wrong-doer, the church wrecker. With those accusations left to cause havoc in your head, then you're emotionally shunned and isolated. Niiiiiice, isn't it?

We began to think about all the people pastor had labeled "bitter" "unwilling to heal" "controlling" and "jezebels"...we began to find these people and talk with them. WOW!!!! I took great courage from them!!! They had lived thru and survived what I was walking thru.

You had the Jezebel in your church too! See, what a coincidence!
We also had the Ahab to go along with the Jezebel. This pastor decided to preach a whole Wednesday message of the Jezebel and Ahab spirit and it was obvious who he was referring to,,,a couple in our church he was really in major conflict with.
We also had another former assistant pastor who was compared to 'Simon the Sorcerer' throughout a whole message. This pastor was doing that quite often,,,,dealing with people from the pulpit.

So,,,again I'm quite encouraged. My story and experience is not so unusual or unique. I see the common thread and heart behind abuse and I see people continuing on a making it through this stuff. thanks:)

[luttrell03]

Lutty... it's all about playing the game... the only winning move is still not to play!:)

You said it Rose! ;)

[Anna Marta]

You had the Jezebel in your church too! See, what a coincidence!
We also had the Ahab to go along with the Jezebel.
'Simon the Sorcerer' throughout a whole message.
This pastor was doing that quite often,,,,dealing with people from the pulpit.

So,,,again I'm quite encouraged. My story and experience is not so unusual or unique. I see the common thread and heart behind abuse and I see people continuing on a making it through this stuff. thanks:)

OMG! Those Jezebel and Ahabs spirit do get around :eek::eek::eek: To think they live in so many people in so many churches all over the world... :cool:

Now 'Simon the Sorcerer' is a new one on me. :rolleyes: I haven't met him yet in any church, but that is probably because your leader was truly creative. ;)

What would these abusive leaders do if they didn't have Jezebel, Ahab and even Simon to blame for the reason their faithful (Stepford followers) fall out of step?

Those of us here in recovery may think we are only making it through, but it seems to me that we are part of a grander plan God is unfolding for His Church on Earth. We're planting new seeds of change and healing for the church universal as our experiences bring out into the light the hidden abuse and pain.

Our stories are the roads to freedom that can provide hope for others who continue to suffer in isolation and silence. We do know The Truth and it is setting us free!!! It is for freedom that we were set free through Christ, as Paul reminds us, we are not to allow ourselves to be made slaves again. :D

I believe we have an important purpose and that our recovery and encouragement is vital to others. Each of us who is willing to speak of our experiences and the journey we travel becomes an example for how it is possible to walk through to freedom, and to do so, without hardened and bitter hearts bears testimony to God's healing and love.

That is exactly the message Christ had for the slaves and poor people in His time. He knew they continue to be slaves, poor or oppressed because of the conditions of this world. He message entailed how to make them MORE than conquorers because they joy and happiness were the kind the world would never understand. I think that is why there are people who cannot understand how we can emerge from SA with hearts in tact and go on to build safer lives based on truth.

I saw what happened to the truly oppressed during WWII and what kind of lives, changes and hope emerged from those who rose from those ashes intent on LIVING and not existing in bitterness and hopeless resentment.

I want that to be my legacy too!!! Let my grandchildren read my life's story and KNOW God is our hope and refuge in time of trouble and that nothing can crush His Spirit in me, not abuse, not financial loss, not sickness, not betrayal, not separation by distance from each other... Let them know my love for them and read my story and be encouraged NOT depressed or angry.

May we all remember we do not live in isolation and that we have a responsibility for those who are with us and who will come after us.

[Carmen]

It's somehow sending us the signal, "Well, I don't have a problem here, I am straight before God....if you guys have a problem,,well that's your problem"! The fact that we stay away is also proof to him and my In-law that WE are the problem.

But I realized awhile back that he only wants to reconcile on his terms and you sense that the underlying motive for every action he takes is to protect his church order, or in my opinion the/his system, his 'baby'. As you so accurately stated, you either put out, put up with, or get out. There are no other options.


Controllers, including controlling pastors, like to put the blame on everyone else. They also think that they are the bosses. According to the early church, though, the congregation was in charge. It stands to reason that every pastor that was elected - by and from the congregation - could also be taken out of office by the congregation.

But then you have the problem of group dynamics and divide-and-conquer. Some will vote as their friends and family are voting, some put their fingers in the wind. Others will let themselves be cornered by the pastor and his inner circle and will vote to keep the pastor in office out of fear, loyalty, or because they get something out of it.

I was not even allowed into a church whose pastor thought I was a danger to his congregation. I wouldn't play his game, that's all.

[luttrell03]

Controllers, including controlling pastors, like to put the blame on everyone else. They also think that they are the bosses. According to the early church, though, the congregation was in charge. It stands to reason that every pastor that was elected - by and from the congregation - could also be taken out of office by the congregation.

Exactly Carmen. We even had a case when during votes for elder/board positions, the leader went around to certain people and told them not to vote for so-and-so.

[Carmen]

There you have it. Why should campaigning be allowed at all? The post of pastor is not about positioning, posturing or whatever. The pastor is supposed to be the most humble person in the congregation (not to be confused with wishy-washy).

But most people hate to hear the truth since it exposes their true motives.