Shepherd on a limb...

[simka2]

okay so i did not know what else to title this thread.

I am faced with something I find very uncomfortable and I wanted your thoughts on this.

My husband and I are on staff at a very non-controlling graced based church...it's been healthy for us and is allowing us to heal step by baby step. Having gone thru what we have we no longer have any desire to control or manipulate people.

There are times however when some of the church attenders get mad at us for not controlling them or others. I know this is a really touchy subject so please be patient with me as I am being very vulnerable here.

Let me give you an example...we had 2 college age girls who were no longer getting along. one was a staff pastors daughter the other a ministry leaders daughter. One set of parents wanted us to get involved and make the girls "fix" their relationship. We sad no. The girls were adults...we could make ourselves availble to them...but it would be unhealthy for us to use our position to force them to reconcile. The parents did not like our response.

We had a sweet elders wife ask husband to talk to her grandaughter about the fact that she was going to hell for co-habitateing with a man. Dh wouldn't and so has gotten labeled as soft on sin.

Today...I had a young mom call me even though she knew I was suffering an adverse reaction to a steroid...and insuiate that it was my job to tell her what to do with her day since she could no-longer spend it with me...I didn't return her call :(

I struggle with knowing that unless they experience spiritual abuse for themselves and realize what it is...they may not realize the great pastors they have...pastor that would take on ridicule rather than strip them of their rights.

So here's my question I think there is 2 sides to the issues facing churches and spiritual abuse...There is definately the issue of shepherds and leaders who consume their sheep...but how do we (me) as a shepherd help sheep who maybe have a false belife about the shepherds role (probly based on past unresolved spiritual abuse) come to a healthy realization of the pastors role? Is there a way for this to be done with out the trauma of spiritual abuse being felt in the first palce?

Please don't be mad at me for this post...it something I really struggle with and I love these people I just don't know how best to help them...I've seen so many leave and go down to the more controlling church down the street...and I do respect their right to make that decision...I just wish there was a way...Sorry kinda an off afternoon :(

[beginagainrose]

Simka... This is a GREAT post! It is a two way street... I think that's why the Lord included the part in Ezek 34 about sheep that "butt" :D and shoulder other sheep. Since the Lord is the Chief Shepherd and to all of us including pastors or staff people like you and your DH... I think it applies... hey...try this, "You know, (dear one)... I have just discovered that sometimes in life, no is a good answer!" My son has told me that on his job at the city here, when uses that line and some people get mad and tell him what for and how much?... he just smiles and say, "It's a LOVEly day!"... and walks away! BTW... BIG kuddos for you getting out on the limb with me today and being vulnerable! THAT REALLY blessed me!:cool:

[Jerry]

The best and easiest way to lead,is to lead by example,and to be kind.....Question; What was the biggest problem the temple leaders had with Christ ???????,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,Too soft on sin would be my guess ;)
Love Jerry

[luttrell03]

Simka... This is a GREAT post! It is a two way street... I think that's why the Lord included the part in Ezek 34 about sheep that "butt" :D and shoulder other sheep. Since the Lord is the Chief Shepherd and to all of us including pastors or staff people like you and your DH... I think it applies... hey...try this, "You know, (dear one)... I have just discovered that sometimes in life, no is a good answer!" My son has told me that on his job at the city here, when uses that line and some people get mad and tell him what for and how much?... he just smiles and say, "It's a LOVEly day!"... and walks away! BTW... BIG kuddos for you getting out on the limb with me today and being vulnerable! THAT REALLY blessed me!:cool:

I agree with Rose. I think sometimes No, is the best loving answer we can give when a Yes, would actually not be the best solution for you or the one asking.
Simka, you are desiring to serve and further disciple people. Now that you are more learned and sensitive about manipulation you can spot it in a second.
I have noticed that we all struggle to trust God by taking that narrow road where its just me and HIm. That's why we manipulate or become dependent or Co-dependent upon others------it's a faith/trust issue, problem.

I don't totally know the best solution, but probably one could be continuing to communicate love as you say No to the request. Much like we do in teaching our kids 'the way they should go'. WE and others need to learn to go to God for the solutions to our problems. It usually takes disappoint or a conflict to go in that direction. We can't solve people's most inner needs. But, we can direct them to the One who can. When people feel that you haven't met or have rejected a 'suppossed' need they make sure that you feel rejected also. This is not your problem.
It's difficult because when you say NO, people will further try to manipulate you in protest and make you feel that you have let them down.
That's where maybe trying to communicate that you said NO, because you care, love and are committed to people might help in the tension. It ultimately comes down to what you sense God telling you what to do,,,,,not people trying to manipulate you in what they would like to see you do.

[simka2]

Thankyou for the very kind responses :) wasn't totally sure how this would go over!!!!

It's had been an off week. I think I began thinking about how difficult it must be to lead this way...and draw a salary. See, because dh and I ahve opted not to take a salary we put ourselves in a very unique position. On one hand the senior Pastor has no ability to control or manipulate us based on fear of being able to provide for our family. This has been good in many ways...because it gives him a check about asking us to do to many activities...but it also gives him the ability to say..."they do this out of the kindness of their hearts..." it changes the base of control. But it also changes the relationship with have with the sheep...we are able to love them and say no without fear of finacial reprecussions. There is a certain sense of freedom in that...

So I got to thinking...how do pastors stay in healthy relationships with their congregations if the very real fear of finacial reprecussions is there...and how do church bodies have accountabilty with their pastor if there are not finaces involved? Does this system work for the best intrest of the church as a whole? Is there a better way?

I think there is a huge connection to money and control... I don't think all ministers are bad or can't handle the pressure of having to make unpopular decsions regardless of salalry...I just wonder if there is a healtheir way...I wonder if salaried shepherds is another one of those tradition things vs. biblical? Any thoughts...

Scripturally we have both examples in the new testament. We have the "don't muzzel the ox while it treds the grain"..."man who serves well are worthy of double reward." But we also have Jesus sending the disciples out without coin in their purse or an extra pair of sandals....

I have a lot of questions about this issue :)

[SueJean]

Simka2, thank you for sharing. As a former elder...or is that elderess..oh well, at the SA group, my husband and I took our responsibilites seriously. We followed the examples set by the male and female pastors as well as the other male and female elders. Yes, we became controlling in some cases, trying to fix situations and people. I admire what you're doing: God with skin on; guiding and leading by a healthy example; allowing people to make their own decisions. If they want help, they'll ask. I'm learning how to better act with people and situations with help from the 12 Step program. One day at a time. I sponsor a couple of ladies; I listen when they share and then when we talk about a situation, I'll give a suggestion if it is called for. Otherwise, I keep my opinions to myself.
Hugs a whole bunch.

[hornblower]

I can see how this could be a touchy subject. I have to be honest in what I see as a 'shepherd'. My 'shepherd isw basically Jesus, not a human being. Jesus said He is the 'good' shepherd. I take this to mean at times people are not always going to be 'good'. I didnt understand this for a very long time and I expected a lot out of my so called 'elders' at churches. So already you might see me as being rebellious towards authority since as I am saying here I dont really see authority as being part of the oprganised church ......not really anyway. Authority for me has to be proven. You either have it or not and if you do have authority, its from God, in which case you will 'know' what to do and to say in differing circumstances.
I do think we should in some circumstances 'lead'. We should lead and advice and speak and do out of a heart that is led from the Holy Spirit.
So having said all of that whatever you are being led to do is up to you and between God and you. No one can really judge that except God. They can quote scripture and personally sometimes I wish they would. But as we all know scripture can be totally taken out of context and is up to whole lot of down right evil stuff when the devil gets a hold of it as he always has.
I can understand your fear. If you are in this position of so called authority in any so called organization where money and business and people that are not following God and thats everywhere and anywhere its always going to be this way, there will be persecution.
In other words your going to be damned if you do and damned if you dont there is no way to win.
I am going for peace.
Not an easy task anywhere.
I personally think four kids are plenty enough for anyone to deal with......just that and nothing else but a good shoulder to cry on and good loyal friends.