Church Incorporation and Spiritual abuse [part2]

[dougjb]

Earlier I wrote a thread on church incorporation and spirit abuse and hopefully laid down some foundation material on how problems arise when two antithetical systems influence the governance of the church. The fundamental question becomes, “Who runs the church when it incorporates?” When the church voluntarily incorporates the State then has a claim on the internal affairs of the church thus compromising the sovereign prerogatives of Jesus Christ as the sole head of the church. In order to stimulate your thinks a bit, I will give two examples on the impact of incorporating a church that could be rather problematic.

In the mid 1980’s, I attended a church where there was a desire by the leadership to construct a new church building in anticipation of a great out pouring of the Spirit in which thousands would be converted. A business meeting was called in order for the leadership to explain to the members of the church the financial issues in constructing a multi-million dollar facility. At the start of the meeting, the pastor stood up and said, “This is a meeting of the corporation and not religious in any way. Therefore, we will not have any opening or closing prayers and there will not be any use of Scripture. It is strictly a business meeting for the corporate members of the church and only those members are allowed to vote on this measure.

Needless to say, those who were present were absolutely dumbfounded. It gets even worse; they presented the chart on the cost of the project and I started to examine it and I said to myself, “There is something is wrong here.” I started to crunch the numbers and I realized that the dollar amounts were way off the mark. I raised my hand and pointed out that the numbers were not adding up properly, in fact, you are severely understating the monthly obligations for the congregation. Deacon came up to me and asked if I was a voting member, I said no. He immediately went to the pastor and told him, then the pastor quickly stands up and makes an announcement that only voting members are allowed to speak at the meeting.

After pondering this incident, I do appreciate the honesty of the pastor in being frank about the nature of the meeting. There is corporate business and there is church business. What they were doing here was corporate business and no one will be allowed to confuse the issue by introducing things like prayer and scripture. Do you see a problem developing here? Even though this is a meeting of members of the corporation [organized for religious purposes, of course], they still want to use the tithes and offering to build the facility while officially removing God from the mix. When members of the congregation give money to the church via their tithes and offerings, there is an assumption or expectation that the money will spent for the purposes of God and according to the will of God as we are best able to discern. Now there is a situation in which these finances are being diverted into the corporate coffers in which only those with corporate membership have control.

There is a vast difference between being a member of a corporation and being a member of the Body of Christ. Granted, one could be a member of both and stick one’s head in the sand and say there is no problem. What happens when someone says, “I want to be a member of the local church but I do not want to be a member of the corporation,” “Do I still have the right to all the privileges of being a member of the local church?” Can I still vote on issues like who will the next elder, deacon and pastor? In fact, can I vote for a person to be an elder but not as a broad member of the 501c3 Corporation? If they say that you cannot vote, then you are not voting for an officer of the church but of the corporation. I want to tithe to the church but I do not want any money to go to the corporation.

What is unfolding entails deception on an institutional level, in which, all the language and decorum of the Christian faith is being displayed but the substance of the faith is removed. When the metal meets the meat and final decision must be made, a church that incorporates must comply with the laws governing corporations. What is taking place is a shift in the control of the church from the members of the local body of believers to power structures outside the church. All of this will create a tension within the church in which there are two competing forces [Christ or something else] influencing the internal affairs of the church. The thing that concerns me is that it creates a culture of deception or untruthfulness.

I will give another example the influence a corporate status has on the Christian faith and the local congregation in the area of marriage. Most people have been to a wedding in church where the pastor stands up front to conduct the ceremony? Eventually the pastor says, “By the authority invested in me by the Lord Jesus Christ and the State of Minnesota[or your State], I pronounce you man and wife and according to Matthew 19:6, ‘Therefore, what God has joined together, let not man separate,’” Everyone thinks that they just witnessed a Christian marriage. Well, guess again. There are things that are taking place that no one is talking about, either intentionally or out of ignorance, what actually happens. Have you ever asked the question, “Why does the pastor include being authorized by the particular State he is living in? There is another part of the marriage that in not discussed which involves a thing called the “Marriage License.” What is a “marriage license” according to the State of Minnesota, “Marriage is a civil contract between a man and a woman and is governed by statutory law [Minn. Stat. 517.01].” The marriage license is permission from the State to enter into a civil contract, a contract that is governed by statutory law. What is happening here? When a couple voluntarily signs the civil contract, that marriage is governed by statutory law because now the State is the third party in the marriage. In a biblical marriage, God is the third party and he is the one who sets the rules concerning the marriage covenant. As for pastors, they need to file their license or ordination papers with the court administrator before they are allowed to solemnize a civil contract marriage. This is where the rub comes in, for a pastor to able to solemnize a civil contract marriage, they have to operate as an agent of the State to sign off on these documents.

Marriage was established by God in the Garden of Eden. The Christian marriage is intended to reflect the marriage between Christ and the church. In a Christian marriage, God is the third party who set the rules governing marriage. Now marriage has moved from being a covenant relationship with God at the head to a contractual agreement with the State legislature as the head. A side note here, if you question the accuracy of what I am saying, go to the legislation on marriage in your state and read it or the Corpus Juris Secundum – its all there.

You may also be wondering, “How does all this involve spiritual abuse?” This is a good question. First, I am talking about is a thing called deception, whether intentional or out of ignorance, it is what I call institutionalized deception in the church. When was the last time you were at a Christian wedding and the pastor gets up and states, “We are embarking on establishing a civil marriage contract between two people in which statutory law governs this union, this is not a Christian marriage in which Jesus Christ is LORD of the marriage.” Personally, I have never heard a pastor lay out to an engaged couple what a civil marriage contract is verses a truly biblical marriage; of course, the pastor would never say that he is not acting in a pastoral capacity but as an authorized agent of the State.

Not only is there deception, there is a truck load of hypocrisy of giving the false appearance of a Christian marriage when it is not. Where does the deception and hypocrisy end or it just part of maintaining a good image of the Christian faith while jettisoning the substance of our faith. My main concern is the truthfulness in stating the reality of issues. If one started to dig around, how much of what we do as Christians is really biblical? The Bible says that we are to be salt and light to the world an agent of change, but how are we able to be effective if we are doing the same things as the world. Worse yet, we cannot even tell each other the truth about the state of affairs in the church.

We were created in the image of God and the LORD has designed us to reflect his image on earth. As human beings, we designed to reflect some image and if it is not God’s image then what image we are reflecting as a church, the image of God or some man made image. Most people think that when they go to church that they getting the real thing when in fact they may getting something else – and that is spiritual abuse. Many of us may emphasize abuse on an individual level, what I am looking at is abuse on an institutional level.

Is there any wonder why people say, “Church does not work,” well of course, a lot what is being done is not even church. Well, I could go on and on, so I stop here.

Dougjb
Some food for thought

[Timid]

The thing that concerns me is that it creates a culture of deception or untruthfulness....If one started to dig around, how much of what we do as Christians is really biblical? The Bible says that we are to be salt and light to the world an agent of change, but how are we able to be effective if we are doing the same things as the world. Worse yet, we cannot even tell each other the truth about the state of affairs in the church.

Many of us may emphasize abuse on an individual level, what I am looking at is abuse on an institutional level.

Is there any wonder why people say, “Church does not work,” well of course, a lot what is being done is not even church. Well, I could go on and on, so I stop here.

Dougjb
Some food for thought

Thank you, thank you, thank you!!!!!! I have been saying this for a long time. People look at me like I am from outer space or something. I have said that it is so very important to know the difference between doing something because it is tradition, and actually doing things that are Biblical. When I talk to my Christian friends, I might as well be talking a foreign language. They can't seem to comprehend the difference. I am so glad I found this forum where we all seem to understand each other.

Thank you Dougjb for your insights. At last I don't feel like I am way off base anymore.

Timid

[dougjb]

Hi Timid,

I am glad this thread has helped you. For some people the truth can sound stranger than fiction the first time one hears it.

dougjb
some food for thought

[beginagainrose]

This was very interesting... my husband and I were just talking about this relating to the whole gay marriage issue: a civil marriage vs. a covenant marriage. My conclusion was that we can play games with ourselves (with words or even laws) when it comes to what God calls sin; but attempting to play games with God ends badly because in the end... He will always deal with sin. What must God think of all the games? Coud it be that the answer to all the debating back and forth is that God is still not mocked (or made sport of with our word games); we sow - we will reap (because God will see to it that we do). I think that the underslying issue to alot of this is that many people have lost their dread to offend God.:eek: Changing the language in the debate of issues is becoming a popular tactic in attempting to win the debate. In the end, it is all before the face of God and that truth should put us on ours.

[dougjb]

Hi beginagainrose,
Well stated post. I could not agree more with you. You raised an interesting topic on the same-sex marriage and civil contracts. When Vermont legalized same-sex marriage, it was the same as a traditional civil marriage contract except some of the language was changed [go to the secretary of State website for Vermont to read it yourself]. I see the next step having the legislatures or courts requiring all authorized agents of the State to officiate same-sex marriages. This could get quite thorny for pastors if they do not support the same-sex marriage thing. This would end up being a hot topic of massive proportions because churches will have to do an indepth and thorough re-examination of how they are doing the whole church thing.

dougjb
some food for thought

[simka2]

I have this strange idea that this thread is probly headed away from it's original intent :) But before someone else so graciously gets it back on track...I'm just gonna throw out my 2 cents worth. I used to be very threatened by the whole gay marriage thing...read all the bumper stickers...you name it. Truthfully it just doesn't bother me anymore...now before I am hanged for being a hertic :) (not that you guys would!!!) Let me explain...I don't think the government can legalize sin...or make it illegal for that matter. If someone is going to sin that's between them and God...if the same people want a contract to protect assets in common I really don't care. Dh and I have been discussing this for awhile... and I really liked the link on Hope98 thread about the history of marriage...I don't have a problem with civil unions all that stuff.

Let me put it this way...if someone wants a civil union with their pet cat...I really don't care :) it might look stupid and I might loose all respect for that person...but it is their choice to make:)

Now it does get a little sticky if the government were to REQUIRE Pastors to non-discriminate...but I don't see this happening in reality...maybe in theory...but it leads to the problem of freedom of religion.

So I guess I believe in Tolerance...but not forced acceptance. I think I am also returning to a stronger belife in the seperation of church and state.

As far as do we do things because they are biblical or not...I think we would DO a lot less THINGS in a true biblical sense. I think things have gotten very complicated and knotted together. I wonder if it was more about not doing and living in the freedom that Jesus's love and grace bring than in doing anything beyond that...

[JaniceB]

Now it does get a little sticky if the government were to REQUIRE Pastors to non-discriminate...but I don't see this happening in reality...maybe in theory...but it leads to the problem of freedom of religion.


I feel the same way about same-sex anything. It doesn't make my marriage any less valid because someone else has a different type of marriage. What does make my marriage a little less valid is domestic partner clauses and exceptions to the marriage rule for domestic partners. I'm not against the domestic partner idea, in fact I'm for it but I think it just reflects the changing nature of marriage in our culture.

I doubt that pastors would have to part with their consciences on gay marriage. We still don't make Catholic doctors perform vasectomies or Catholic Medicaid health plans cover abortions. We work around it somehow.

I used to be very upset about gays and their "sin." That was until I had to tell two little boys to watch out for Dad and his sinful tendencies. Somehow it made two adults loving each other, even in a way that seemed weird to me, healthy and okay. We all have our issues and our problems. At least they aren't hurting anyone.

The whole thing about marriage being civil and religious doesn't bother me a bit. The tradition when this country started was to get married in a church so the laws were formed way back when that a pastor could marry people. It was an accomodation because we don't have a state church in the US. I don't see why a marriage ceremony can't cover Christian beliefs and legalities at the same time.

Now, what does bother me is the emphasis in churches on legal marriage. What if a couple doesn't want or can't be legally married? Can't the church accept them anyway? Isn't it legalism to require a legal marriage?

[Hope 98]

...now before I am hanged for being a hertic :) (not that you guys would!!!) Let me explain...I don't think the government can legalize sin...or make it illegal for that matter. If someone is going to sin that's between them and God...if the same people want a contract to protect assets in common I really don't care.
Let me put it this way...if someone wants a civil union with their pet cat...I really don't care :) it might look stupid and I might loose all respect for that person...but it is their choice to make:)

Now it does get a little sticky if the government were to REQUIRE Pastors to non-discriminate...but I don't see this happening in reality...maybe in theory...but it leads to the problem of freedom of religion.

So I guess I believe in Tolerance...but not forced acceptance. I think I am also returning to a stronger belife in the seperation of church and state.

As far as do we do things because they are biblical or not...I think we would DO a lot less THINGS in a true biblical sense. I think things have gotten very complicated and knotted together. I wonder if it was more about not doing and living in the freedom that Jesus's love and grace bring than in doing anything beyond that...

I believe the issue of gay marriage has a whole lot more to do with protecting joint assets or sharing medical coverage than anything else. I think the sinfulness of such unions are best left between the participants and God.

I'm also beginning to think that MAYBE the law of the Bible as well as the law of the land is meant for those who don't know what it is to love God or love their neighbors as themselves.

One way of loving our neighbor is to ask ourselves what we would like from others if we were in their situation. It is a quicker route to caring response than hermaneutic exegesis of the Torah through the lens of the new covenant.

to wit:
12Speak and act as those who are going to be judged by the law that gives freedom, 13because judgment without mercy will be shown to anyone who has not been merciful. Mercy triumphs over judgment! (from James 2 NIV)

[beginagainrose]

Please forgive me if I have in any way hijacked this thread; not my intention. I just thought this was simply one strand to the total thought intended for discussion. I dont like it when that happens to my own threads!:eek::o

[dougjb]

Hi beginagainrose,
I do not consider this thread as being hijacked, in fact, this is what I like to see happen, when people start linking related matters to the topic. How the church is entangled with the State in a number of areas has implications that should be discussed.
My first concern is that if Christians desire a Christian marriage they should be able to have it, and if they want a civil contract marriage it is their choice. I don like the State meddling where they should not be meddling and the church, I my opinion, has no business unnecessarily inviting the State into church affairs.
Simka2, I would to give you something for your consideration related to what you said,
I don't think the government can legalize sin...or make it illegal for that matter. If someone is going to sin that's between them and God...
There are laws against things like stealing, murder, and being a false witness which are all sins also, there is the legalization of sinful things like prostitution, eminent domain, and slander. There are sins that directly effect society and laws are needed to restrain evil. Does marriage come under the umbrella of having a direct social impact. If so how should the mechanics work itself out - big issue here. I need to get going so may pick this up later.

dougjb
some food for thought

[beginagainrose]

Wow... thanks, Doug... I was trying to address the legal vs. covenant issue without emeshing myself in debate about homosexuals. But I am feeling led to share a couple of things I would normally keep private. I have already stepped out on the limb a bit in another thread today and because I love it when we are willing to take risks here in hopes of encouraging others and, therefore, making this site and our pain very relevent... here goes...

I have a very deep, abiding compassion for homsexual people. I believe the reaseach bears this out: when children are molested (regardless of same/opposite sex predators), the bell is rung. Then add to that the frequent emotional abuse or abandonment of one or both parents and emotional/psychological "wires get crossed" not their DNA. I have first hand experience with this as I was molested by my mother and my father at 3 and raped by my father at 9; he was a pastor. I had a couple of "close encounters" with women in my 20's and it is the grace of God alone I did not choose that lifestyle.

My husband was molested by a male childcare provider and both his parents were abusive; one physically (father) and the other emotionally (mother). He was then molested by a 16 yr old neighbor when he was 8 and began a "voluntary" homosexual relationship when he was 14. Only because he was arrested about a year later for stealing an old woman's purse for drug money and being sent away to a boy's camp (under lockdown) did he "get out". He rededicated his life to Christ there and when he came home, said "I'm done" to the neighbor kid when he tried to restablish relationship.

Therefore, I have nothing but mercy and compassion for homosexuals or anyone who falls prey to that temptation. Take Ted Haggard as a recent example; I just sent him an email a few weeks ago and he responded to me with the kindest, most gracious gratitude.

That being said, I believe God's Word is clear on the issue as to it being sin; but we are commanded to walk in love and mercy.

So, that brings me back to the point I was trying to make that even if marriage is no longer defined by the courts or legislatures as being between a man and a woman, a covenant marriage will always only be between God, a man and a woman because that is how God set it up.

Please forgive me if this was over the top in any way. I just want to be really clear.

[JaniceB]

So, that brings me back to the point I was trying to make that even if marriage is no longer defined by the courts or legislatures as being between a man and a woman, a covenant marriage will always only be between God, a man and a woman because that is how God set it up.

Please forgive me if this was over the top in any way. I just want to be really clear.

Yes, I think the most important part of the marriage is the commitment expressed between two people. Can you have commitment without the legalities? Sure, but if you're going to have it anyhow why not make it official? Why put a ceiling on where the relationship can go? Besides, it all makes you think twice about breaking the commitment.

[beginagainrose]

Very true, JB... I got to tell parts of my story on Leeza Gibbons show years ago since part of it was my own husband's adultery and having a baby on purpose with another woman (the show was about children of adultery, so I had lots to share about my childhood and my marriage). We were on with one other couple who had divorced. The show was just about over and I asked Leeza if I could say one more thing. She said "sure"... I looked into the camera and said. "I want people to understand that marriage is not a two way relationship, it is a three way relationship with God (I put my two thumbs together and my two index fingers and made a triangle)... I paused and said, "And THIS is the stuff Jesus died for!"... end of show... one producer came up to me after and said, "And THAT is what we call great television!" I was floored! Nothing beats that 3 cord strand!:)

[simka2]

There are laws against things like stealing, murder, and being a false witness which are all sins also, there is the legalization of sinful things like prostitution, eminent domain, and slander. There are sins that directly effect society and laws are needed to restrain evil. Does marriage come under the umbrella of having a direct social impact. If so how should the mechanics work itself out - big issue here.


Very good point!!! I'm thinking I guess more fromt the conservative christian argument that I had so recently held too :) The one that goes back to the whole "America is a christian nation...founded on christian principles." things like that. But your right in that we do legislate "sins" that take away the rights and freedoms of others. And we allow things to be "taken" (eminient domain) but compensated for...from people who may not want o give them up.

So I guess my statement was aimed more from that former foundation of thinking than from logic :) Puts even bigger holes in the rhetoric than I originally thought!

So a better way to put it...would be that I don't believe the government has the right to pass laws that control the individual of adult age personal choices for his or her private life. That being said I am sure one you could put that a whole lot better than I just did...I can't seem to wrap the words around the idea!!!!

[luttrell03]

Amazing story BRose. I agree with you about God's heart of compassion and mercy. I haven't been in this thread much so don't want to distract the flow,,but what it must be for God to constantly see all the different kinds of abuse that goes on.

[dougjb]

Hi everyone,
When it comes to the marriage issue, I start from the assumption that it is an institution God initiated at creation between Adam and Eve [one man-one woman]. No matter that people employ a lot of cleaver ideas, a lot of rhetoric, and a lot of legal maneuvering cannot change the original design of marriage. I believe that when people attempt to redefine marriage it will ultimately be destruction for society.
Having said all this, my main point in bringing up the marriage license and civil marriage contract issue involves being truthful and honest about the true nature of things. If pastors are going to marry people, they need to tell them exactly what is at issue here and not pretend that wedding ceremony is Christian when it is not [but civil]. We need to speak the truth in love. I do not want the seeds of institutionalized deception or hypocrisy to be acceptable in the church. This is what I am getting at here.

dougjb
some food for thought

[simka2]

Hi everyone,
When it comes to the marriage issue, I start from the assumption that it is an institution God initiated at creation between Adam and Eve [one man-one woman]. No matter that people employ a lot of cleaver ideas, a lot of rhetoric, and a lot of legal maneuvering cannot change the original design of marriage.

I actually agree with the foundation of this argument...but...:)

God initiated a MARRIAGE between adam an eve...what I don't see is that it was an INSTITUTION (in the legal sense) no legal code...no legal document...no man-made church ceremony. If we use the marriage of adam and eve as an example than all that is needed for an institutionalized marriage is the bride, groom, and the trinity:) Hence why I don't find any other definition of marriage threatening to my own :) At my wedding their was me, my husband and hopefully other people including a minister...but none of those other people make what husband and I have a MARRIAGE.

Whats hard about this line of thinking is that there's no litmus test...it places a marriage between a man, woman, and God. Not a minister or the state :)

Now if the state wants to complicate marriage and change that basic definetion...why stop with it being between a man and a woman...because were comfortable with it? My point is that once the state is involved they can call what they want, when they want to. Marriage has already been changed. The one thing we cannot know is if GOD officiated the marriage. Is He absent when it's between homosexual couples...truthfully...I DON"T KNOW!!!!

I hope that made some lick of sense...and I also hope that my lack of knowing the answer is very clear :) Because this is something that I don't have resolved...it's a new line of thinking for me in totality!

[Reg]

Hi Doug,

Not to belabour the point but I went to the actual words of a traditional marriage. They are very clear what marriage is all about...


Covenant Marriage Wedding Ceremonies

(My comments) + emphasis

5. Purpose (Why we have gathered) Minister
[To the congregation] Dear friends and family, we have gathered here today in the presence of God to celebrate His activity in the uniting of (Groom’s full name) and (Bride’s full name) in Holy Matrimony.

[To the couple] Before the two of you were conceived God knew the events of this day would be taking place. So it is that He is present with us today, continuing that which He began before you were born.

The Bible teaches that marriage is to be a permanent relationship of one man and one woman freely and totally committed to each other as companions for life. It is a covenant relationship patterned after God’s covenant relationship with His People. (It is a Divine Institution not a man-made one.)

Our Lord declared that a man shall leave his father and mother and unite with his wife in the building of a home, and the two shall become one flesh. In this union God is providing an opportunity for the two of you to experience the greatest expression of His love through two human beings.

(Groom’s Name) as you stand before me in the presence of God and these who have gathered here today, you are saying to God and to the world that you believe He has His hand on this event. You are willingly joining God in the life of (Bride’s Name). You are saying that you desire to love her as Christ loves the church. He is patient and kind. He does not envy. He does not boast nor is He proud. He is not rude, nor self-seeking. He is not easily angered, nor does He keep a record of wrongs. He does not delight in evil but rejoices in truth. He always protects, always trusts, always hopes, and always perseveres. The Love of Christ never fails. You are saying that the love you have for (Bride’s Name) is a gift from God through you to her. And just as Christ laid down His life for the church, you are saying that you are willing to lay down your agendas, your desires, your needs in order to serve God through loving (Bride’s Name).

(Bride’s Name), God has laid out His plans for you since before you were born and He knew the event of this day would be taking place. As you recite your vows today you are saying, “Yes, Lord” to His offer to you to join Him in the life of (Groom’s Name). God has brought you alongside (Groom’s Name) to be his helpmate. God has given you a special love for (Groom’s Name) that He has chosen you to be an instrument of His love to him.

He is calling you to submit to (Groom’s Name) as to the Lord. In other words, God is calling you to willingly submit to Him and His loving leadership through (Groom’s Name). Ephesians tells us that “the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything.” (Bride’s Name), God is calling you to serve Him through serving (Groom’s Name). God is also providing you with an opportunity to demonstrate your love for Him through loving (Groom’s Name)?

(Bride’s Name), the same God who loved you before you were born and continued to loved you through your parents now expresses His love for you through (Groom’s Name). But not only is He providing His love for you through (Groom’s Name), He is also giving you to (Groom’s Name) as an expression of His love for him. 1 John 4:12 says, “No one has ever seen God; but if we love one another, God lives in us and his love is made complete in us.” If God truly lives in each of you, then how you treat one another, you treat God. How you receive one another today and for the rest of your life, you receive Christ.

8. Devotional Thought/Challenge

* (Groom’s Name) and (Bride’s Name), what images come to mind when you hear the word marriage? You may picture loved ones or friends who are married – perhaps your parents. You may envision the two of you. How did God see marriage when he created it for mankind?
* The church at large considers marriage to be an institution. It is understood as having been instituted by God. It is His design and plan for the human race. In creation, God declared, “It is not good for the man to be alone, I will make a helper suitable for him.” It was God who brought Eve to Adam after creating her, in effect pronouncing the first marriage union. In the New Testament, the husband and wife are said to be “joined together” by God. Jesus is seen as sanctioning marriage by his attendance at the marriage in Cana of Galilee.
* As a local Body of Believers, we hold to the belief that God views marriage as a covenant. In the Bible, marriage is spoken of as a covenant and therefore we accept this view as our own.
* A covenant marriage implies a freely chosen, lifelong, exclusive relationship between the husband and wife whose relationship is established and enabled by God with each other is founded on their covenant relationship with God. A covenant is the most solemn binding relationship into which two parties can enter. A covenant is based on unconditional love while a contract is based on works. A covenant cannot be broken if new circumstances occur. A contract can be voided by mutual consent
* A covenant is freely entered into based on the gift of God’s covenant love for us. What each of you freely gives to the other cannot be resended by the other. In other words, (Groom’s Name), what you freely give to (Bride’s Name) cannot be taken back by her for it is not hers to take back and vise versa.
* How strong is the bond of the marriage covenant? The marriage covenant is to be one of total commitment, complete faithfulness, and permanence. Established and blessed by God, the marriage covenant is not to be broken. It is to be honored among all people. The Bible says, “Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and they shall become one flesh.”
* (Groom’s Name) and (Bride’s Name), today you must leave your parents and cleave to the spouse God has given you. With your spouse you will experience the strongest of all human bonds – the covenant of marriage.

9. Vows

(Groom’s Name), believing that marriage is a covenant intended by God to be a lifelong fruitful relationship between a man and a woman, do you vow to God, to (Bride’s Name), your family, and your community, to remain steadfast in selfless, unconditional love for her and will you always seek reconciliation in times of trial? And, do you commit to remain sexually pure in mind and body while purposefully growing spiritually and personally in your covenant marriage relationship?

“I do.”

(Bride’s Name), believing that marriage is a covenant intended by God to be a lifelong fruitful relationship between a man and a woman, do you vow to God, to (Groom’s Name), your family, and your community to remain steadfast in selfless, unconditional love for him and will you always seek reconciliation in times of trial? And, do you commit to remain sexually pure in mind and body while purposefully growing spiritually and personally in your covenant marriage relationship?

“I do.”

(Groom’, repeat after me.

“I, (Groom) , enter into this covenant of marriage with you, (Wife) ./ I promise always to love you as my wife/ and to completely give myself/ and all that I have to you./ I pledge to care for you/ in sickness or in health./ I will honor and cherish you/ all the days of my life,/ whether our life circumstances/ are better or worse, richer or poorer./ I will strive to live before you/ a life of faith and trust in Jesus Christ.

(Bride) , it’s your turn.

I, (Bride) , enter into this covenant of marriage with you, (Groom) ./ I promise always to love you as my husband/ and to completely give myself/ and all that I have to you./ I pledge to care for you/ in sickness or in health./ I will honor and cherish you/ all the days of my life,/ whether our life circumstances/ are better or worse, richer or poorer./ I will strive to live before you/ a life of faith and trust in Jesus Christ.”

[beginagainrose]

Wow, Reg...this was AWEsome...talk about the cherry on the sundae!:)

[simka2]

Okay so now I'm confused :) Not hard to do in my case!!!! What is marriage? What is Traditional Marriage? What is Covenant Marriage? What is a Civil Marriage? What is Biblical Marriage? What is Spiritual Marriage? What is Ancient Marriage? What is Pagan Marriage? or Native American Marriage or any other culture for that matter...

I think one of the things that can make these types of discussions so sticky is that we all come from a different foundational definations.

It can be difficult to discuss something when in fact we may not be discussing the same thing!!!

I think whats happening for me is that I'm developing a little bit more of an organic view of marriage. I've watched dh perform many wedding ceremonies...deep down I don't believe that it has anything to do with him, the church or the state that makes the 2 people married either God is there or he's not! Now I'm definately not talking legal marriage...but spiritual here.

So here's my thoughts...and this is where it gets sticky...if a homosexual couple gets married in a church by a minister, that doesn't automatically mean they have a God-ordained spiritual marriage...they may have a legal certificate...but no one can FORCE God's presence or endorsment. On the other hand...lets say there is a young heterosexual couple who have covenanted with each other and God...we might find that, if that was the case and God was with them in their decision, that they are spiritually married...but not legally. Let me add though that I don't know how this will all play out in eternity...I might have my personal belifes...but I've been wrong many times. Just a few more thoughts :D

[Hope 98]

On the other hand...lets say there is a young heterosexual couple who have covenanted with each other and God...we might find that, if that was the case and God was with them in their decision, that they are spiritually married...but not legally. Let me add though that I don't know how this will all play out in eternity...I might have my personal belifes...but I've been wrong many times. Just a few more thoughts :D

I ask many of the same questions that you ask regarding marriage. The part of your post that I quoted is exactly what I am currently dealing with.

I have every reason to believe that my daughter and the father of her child are as committed to each other and their child as two people of their age and maturity are capable of being. I also believe that they have God in their lives and that He hasn't abandoned them because they conceived a child without benefit of a legal certificate from the Commonwealth.

The other side of the coin is that I know couples who are married in terms of legalities but treat each other so poorly that it's hard to believe that God was ever present in their lives at all. Now - to make that assumption one way or another is probably getting into an area of judgment where I don't belong, but I don't think that long-standing abusive relationships are the example that God intended.

The Legal aspect is the focus of many of the church-folks in my life. While the phrases are "live together" or "spend the night together", the sin that I believe they're really talking about is sexual activity without the legal certificate tying the participants together.

I just keep thinking that if a certificate is the only reason my husband is putting up with me, I'm not sure I want him to stick around anyway. It's the commitment that moved us to seek that certificate that matters. Without that heart, the certificate is actually a lie.

I believe that church would do well to look at the quality of relationships rather than the civil standing to determine what is a real marriage.

[dougjb]

Hi Everyone,
Reg you are definitely not belaboring the point. It was an excellent example of the biblical covenant marriage ceremony. Thanks for sharing it on the broad.

Hi simka2,
You stated,

I actually agree with the foundation of this argument...but...

God initiated a MARRIAGE between adam an eve...what I don't see is that it was an INSTITUTION (in the legal sense) no legal code...no legal document...no man-made church ceremony. If we use the marriage of adam and eve as an example than all that is needed for an institutionalized marriage is the bride, groom, and the trinity Hence why I don't find any other definition of marriage threatening to my own At my wedding their was me, my husband and hopefully other people including a minister...but none of those other people make what husband and I have a MARRIAGE.

Whats hard about this line of thinking is that there's no litmus test...it places a marriage between a man, woman, and God. Not a minister or the state

Now if the state wants to complicate marriage and change that basic definetion...why stop with it being between a man and a woman...because were comfortable with it? My point is that once the state is involved they can call what they want, when they want to. Marriage has already been changed. The one thing we cannot know is if GOD officiated the marriage. Is He absent when it's between homosexual couples...truthfully...I DON"T KNOW!!!!

I hope that made some lick of sense...and I also hope that my lack of knowing the answer is very clear Because this is something that I don't have resolved...it's a new line of thinking for me in totality!
I believe that you are correct that marriage is not an institution [in the legal sense] no legal code or legal document in which the State ultimately determines whether someone is married of not. I believe that the marriage ceremony is the place where the marriage covenant takes place. Since marriage is a social organization [a microcosm of a larger community] there is a public aspect to solemnizing a marriage. When one takes into account the full meaning of marriage and family, it is in a very real sense the foundation or cornerstone for a whole society. Even though the bride, groom, and God are the three parties of the covenant marriage, there must be someone to mediate the wedding [pastor] and witnesses.

You mentioned that if the state wants to complicate and change the basic definition...why stop with it being between a man and a woman? Many States are attempting to change the basic definition of marriage like the same sex unions. Also, a new wrinkle as of late has come up in which there is a push that the marriage civil contract have a specific time period attached to it. It would say that the contract is good for seven years and if you want to stay married than you have to renew it.

God has instituted marriage and everything involved in it. The State or anyone else can say that they are going to define marriage into something else. I hold to the position that as one deviates from what God has set up, it ceases to be marriage but is something else – like a contract or something. God did not design marriage to include same sex unions.

Simka2, you raised the issue of the various ways marriages are explained, like traditional, covenant, civil, biblical, and the sort. When dealing with covenant and biblical marriages, you are dealing with the same thing. I am going to limit the scope to the Christian faith as it applies today; the fundamental issue is “Who is the ultimate authority in the marriage?” There is only one of two roads to go on; either it’s Jesus Christ or the State. This is where I believe a lot of fog comes into the picture. Of all the Christian wedding I have attended, there is a declaration made in various ways that Jesus Christ is the ultimate head of the marriage, and then they turn around and sign the civil marriage contract.

These married couples declare Jesus Christ as head of the marriage but now they voluntarily created contractual obligations with the State. This creates a befuddling situation of when the so-called “metal meets the meat” problem of who will have final say when God and the State do not agree. The State will say, “You voluntarily signed the marriage license and entered into a civil contract; therefore, you must comply or else.”
Finally, if a couple has entered into a covenant marriage without the civil contract, they are just fine as far as eternity goes. In fact, I believe that they are better off in the sight of God because there is no competition over who is the ultimate head of the marriage.

[simka2]

Doug...I get where your coming from :) but this is what I don't understand...you said... Even though the bride, groom, and God are the three parties of the covenant marriage, there must be someone to mediate the wedding [pastor] and witnesses.



Why does a Pastor HAVE to mediate the wedding and why do there have to be other witnesses? I ask this in light of the biblical paradigm were working from regarding the first marriage of Adam and Eve. I don't see a pastor or witnesses. I'm really not trying to be difficult :) I am extremely curious by nature...gets me into trouble sometimes...but I am who I am :D

Also if scripture says that were all priests...how does that play?

Thanks for continuing this discussion with me...I actually really appreciate getting to hash some of this out!!!!

[luttrell03]

Doug...I get where your coming from :) but this is what I don't understand...you said...


Why does a Pastor HAVE to mediate the wedding and why do there have to be other witnesses? I ask this in light of the biblical paradigm were working from regarding the first marriage of Adam and Eve. I don't see a pastor or witnesses. I'm really not trying to be difficult :) I am extremely curious by nature...gets me into trouble sometimes...but I am who I am :D

Also if scripture says that were all priests...how does that play?

Thanks for continuing this discussion with me...I actually really appreciate getting to hash some of this out!!!!


Also don't want to be difficult but this for me goes back to the bigger question. Why does the pastor have to do almost everything?

With the marriage is it the connection with the State/corporate thing again? For example, they have a liscense to preach and marry?

Through the State connection and other reasons, have we become too emotionally dependent upon pastors? I don't have a clue about the witnesses either.

[beginagainrose]

The bottom line issue for me is that The Word is clear about putting ourselves under the authority over us. We are a nation with the rule of law. I know that part of scripture is how most of us if not all of us were abused, but our abuse spiritually does not release us from it's requirement in other areas of our lives. I would refer back to my prayer in another thread about not using our abuse as excuse to "do our own thing". It can really come down to losing our dread to offend God. In the end, we have to stand before God accountable. The part that hasn't been addressed here is that if we give ourselves a "pass" in any area, we lose big time; intimate fellowship with God. That price is too high... unless we never had it to begin with. But it is still sacraficed on the alter of our own will.

[simka2]

The bottom line issue for me is that The Word is clear about putting ourselves under the authority over us. We are a nation with the rule of law. I know that part of scripture is how most of us if not all of us were abused, but our abuse spiritually does not release us from it's requirement in other areas of our lives. I would refer back to my prayer in another thread about not using our abuse as excuse to "do our own thing". It can really come down to losing our dread to offend God. In the end, we have to stand before God accountable. The part that hasn't been addressed here is that if we give ourselves a "pass" in any area, we lose big time; intimate fellowship with God. That price is too high... unless we never had it to begin with. But it is still sacraficed on the alter of our own will.

Sorry sweetie...but I am going to have to politely disagree with you somewhat. I don't believe that "The Word" is anywhere near clear on this :) Secondly, I don't think we are supposed to live with any fear of offending God...Jesus is my covering and no matter what when God looks at me it's my belife that all he see's is Jesus! Thirdly I don't believe we loose any intimacy with God. Yes sin seperates...but thankful Jesus's blood covers ALL my sins...past...present...and future!

Thats why His PERFECT love casts out fear :)

There was a book my sa pastor forced the entire church to read called "under cover" that sounds very similar to what I read in the above post.

The other thing I have learned is that it is OKAY not to agree all the time :) I still love you and appreciate what youhave to say!

[beginagainrose]

Simka... I can appreciate all differences... we all "work out our own salvation". However... For me it is clear that because I love God I have a reverence for Him. My "dread to offend" Him is not a "shaking in my boots fear" It is a "it would break my heart to break His". I am fine with your disagreement.:) I can only say that at 55, and being a believer for over 40 years, my experience with the Lord has that He has withdrawn from me and become silent when I have DONE this "game playing" about what "is is" when it comes to marriage, sin and covenant. It has been very expense! I did the "play with scripture, spin it and justify the choices of my own free will"... and ya know, God wasted NO time in letting me know how He felt about it. Consequences immediate, heaven like brass regarding my prayer life, no peace... and the "ass whoop'in" of my life... and it lasted for years! ANY one here or anywhere else who would like to step up and play that game; (opinions are one thing; experience quite another)...be my guest. That is the beauty and faithfulness of God... after all our pontifications, He knows how to speak for Himself, and my experince is, He surely does...and has taught me, "more than you sow, later than you sow and longer than you sow...A WHOLE LOT LONGER!" Please understand my heart motivation in stating my view on this is only one: to mercifully caution ANYone else from going down that path...THE BRIDGE IS OUT! But Ezekiel made it clear that we should warn others or their blood (even heart's blood) is on our hands. Having said all that... I yield.:)

[dougjb]

Hi everyone,
I am in a bit of a crunch for time but would like to give a couple of remarks on the need for witnesses and a pastor in a wedding ceremony. I do not have the time at the moment to pull out all the scriptural proofs or reasons but I will give a quick summary of the matter.
Marriage is primarily a social organization at the most fundamental level. The foundation of any community or society is the family. Therefore, marriage is not a private matter but encompasses and impacts the community society, or nation on all levels.
When vows are given between a man and a woman, a vow needs to have witnesses to verify, confirm, and establish as fact the vows were made. Also, I consistent pattern in scripture is the use of a mediator to publicly confirm the instillation, and the veracity of vows and oaths as God's representative. Marriage impacts all of life and in various ways and especially the community, and as such, there is a public component to it. I do not have time to go into all the details but I hope it gives you something to Muse over.

dougjb
some food for thought

[simka2]

(((((Beginagain))))) Like I said I very much value your opinion and the freedom we all have in expressing differences...especially of interpretation :) Your life experiences are priceless!!!! and I definately want to validate them!!!

We have traveled slightly different paths...and arrived at slightly different destinations in the grand scheme. Its kind of like the beautiful chaos described in the shack...or the miriad of colors in a prism. But their is no yielding...for I hold what you have to say in great esteem!!!!

[beginagainrose]

God Bless You, Simka!... As a woman of the well in recovery, I am a walking example of what not to do as one who had to learn most things the hard way.:o

[beginagainrose]

Oh, and Doug... your last point was really good about the witness to vows... when I crossed the line 20 years ago with the Lord, not long after I got married to "fix things"... I turned on my christian radio station just in time to hear the speaker say, "have you ever made a vow to God and not kept it?"...and I had just entered into what I call my "furnace of affliction" season. What I have learned is that God takes all covenants VERY seriously... especially not making them as well as not keeping them! This was such an awesome thread. I did some real heart reflection here. Thank you so much!

[luttrell03]

The bottom line issue for me is that The Word is clear about putting ourselves under the authority over us. We are a nation with the rule of law. I know that part of scripture is how most of us if not all of us were abused, but our abuse spiritually does not release us from it's requirement in other areas of our lives. I would refer back to my prayer in another thread about not using our abuse as excuse to "do our own thing". It can really come down to losing our dread to offend God. In the end, we have to stand before God accountable. The part that hasn't been addressed here is that if we give ourselves a "pass" in any area, we lose big time; intimate fellowship with God. That price is too high... unless we never had it to begin with. But it is still sacraficed on the alter of our own will.

Hi Rose. Thanks for your post and the care and sensitivy that we would not use our hurt as an excuse to disobey.
I think it can be a bumpy, imperfect road post SA as everyone tries to distinguish their responsibilities from those of the abusive leaders, etc..
And I readily agree that the misuse of authority in our lives doesn't excuse us from biblical forms of leadership that are supposed to help and equip use to do the will of God. I also agree with Doug, that the marriage was seen as a family affair for the Church to partake and witness, so witnesses are a healthy part of the ceremony before God.

I do believe in leadership as its clear in the Bible. And if I saw it more lined up with the Bible, not perfect or without sin, but more aligned to how I understand Jesus describing 'leaders' I think I would be more inclined to submit as actually the Body should submit to one another.
My question was more in understanding, what does the role of a pastor biblically really look like?

The problem I'm having is that I don't see the power that many pastors are having really described in the bible. Honestly maybe I'm just missing something or not understanding the Scripture correctly.
I came from a ministry that taught you shouldn't question or disobey your leaders whether they were right or wrong. If you disobey, God will 'deal with you' regardless of the character of the leader/pastor.

NOw I'm just struggling to understand, what is a healthy role of a pastor?
Why does the pastor have to do most things, as well as marry people?
CAn an Elder with the gift of Evangelism, or some one else, any elder also 'officially' do it or does it have to be the one with the gift of Pastor? Maybe my even questioning this sounds bizarre and rebellious??
And why is the gift of pastor usually exalted above the other gifted men for example in Eph. 4?
These are really sincere questions from one confused by what he's seen. I'm not wanting to throw out the baby with the bath water. I don't want to discard leadership. I see clearly that God had a purpose for me/us in giving it. I just want to learn from my mistakes and invest in something more biblically, relational and genuine.

[simka2]

another sticky ? I know I know curiousity killed the cat :D I sorta agree that marriage is building block to society and the family...but what about polygamy there are many societies that have some form of marrige that do not involve a officiate and are not between 1man and 1 woman...how does that play?

[dougjb]

Hi simka2,
When one starts addressing all the variations that different cultures or societies bring into the mix, one could talk endlessly on the matter. I believe that because of the entrance of sin into the world marriage as with everything else have been twisted and deformed from God's original purpose. I guess the only thing I have to say is that my goal is to get back to God's original intent and purpose for marriage and family.

dougjb
some food for thought

[dougjb]

Hi luttrell03,

The topic of the role of leadership in the church like that of pastor, elder, deacon and the sort is deserving a thread of its own. I will put some thought into it and maybe we could get a rather vivacious discussion going. I am sure that a lot of people would like to give their 2 cents worth on a topic like this.

dougjb
some food for thought

[simka2]

I believe that because of the entrance of sin into the world marriage as with everything else have been twisted and deformed from God's original purpose. I guess the only thing I have to say is that my goal is to get back to God's original intent and purpose for marriage and family.

dougjb
some food for thought

This I definately agree with!!! which is why I have some issue with the pastor witness thing. It seems to me were discussing 2 seperate issues...

1. is "marriage" the foundation of society?

2. God's "original" intent for marriage.

I think we have to be cautious about using the first issue to justify enforceing the second one.

And it doesn't explain why traditional judeo/christian ceremonies should be the standard.

Again if this is about the stability of society the polygamy is just as valid.

If this about original design than I'm back at Adam+Eve+God=covenant marriage.

Do I believe that if two adults in their right mind covenant together with God to form a marital...are bound by their covenant? Yes!!! regardless of what society says I believe they will have to live with the consequences of breaking that covenant. But I also don't think that if this happens it's the end of the world for them :)

So I think what I am struggling with is meshing these two issues...

But let me say that I do believe God's original design to be the healthiest option...I just don't think that other definetions of marriage threaten society.

[dougjb]

Hi simka2
You have raised some great and intriguing questions. From my side of the fence, you seem to be fully engaged in the issue and I love that type of honest and inquisitive dialogue. My life at the moment is a bit chaotic in which I do not have the time to quickly respond to your questions. As soon as I am able, I will love to discuss this further. I am juggling a truck load of stuff at the moment.

dougjb
some food for thought

[Hope 98]

I'm enjoying this discussion!

I wholeheartedly agree that God's design intended one man & one woman in covenant relationship with Him for life - at least, because when the design went into prototype, there was no death.

I fully accept this as the ideal we would do well to strive for.

However, I recognize the reality of a fallen world, and feel that there are a number of valid reasons that marriages should end. And that people who are divorced have the right to remarry.

I've heard Christians say that gay people want everyone to be gay. They seem to think that homosexual people are conspiring to force their lifestyle on the entire rest of the world. I suspect that may be true of a radical few, but generally, I hear gay people saying that they want to just be allowed to be themselves without fear.

If what I'm hearing from the "gay side" is true, their unions -whether you call them marriages or not - really don't threaten society or other individuals.

I am really struggling with the concept of all sins being equal. I don't think I fully accept that. But I surely don't believe that any of the sexual subcategory of sin is MORE worthy of notice than most others.

I really would rather see people up in arms over lying, stealing, and killing.

well - that's enough for now.

[chosen]

I am really struggling with the concept of all sins being equal. I don't think I fully accept that. But I surely don't believe that any of the sexual subcategory of sin is MORE worthy of notice than most others.


it is hard to see a sin like lieing as being as bad as murder... but i think God looks at it like

this is bad... = to this is bad... sin is sin... ??

does that help??

probably not :)

[hoipoloi]

I mistakenly wrote a post on part 1 that should have been here.

Sorry about that.

:confused:

[simka2]

hoipoloi...I so hope i spelled that right!!! I'm going to respond to your post over on this thread hope you don't mind.

I think...please be assured that I realize these are my thoughts alone and are not the end all in and of themselves :)...that there is truth in that the bible is against homosexuality...but it's also against selfishness...stealing...slander...and a host of other things...

I also see that the bible is for: love...encouragement...support...service...and a host of other good things!

It's my hope that it's possible to extended the same love and support and freedoms to the gay community as we do to anyone else...

I believe there are many reasons someone might chose that lifestyle...many wounds and misleadings...but I don't think elvateing their lifestyle above other unhealthy lifestyle choices would bring them any closer to excperienceing the unconditional love of Jesus.

Hope 98...I'm with you in thinking sin is sin...I've also begun to ask myself...What is sin? Not the list of sins...but what exactly is sin? Maybe I'll start a thread :)

Doug...no worries!!!! no rush!!!!! do what you have to do :) real life does exist!

[Hope 98]

it is hard to see a sin like lieing as being as bad as murder... but i think God looks at it like

this is bad... = to this is bad... sin is sin... ??

does that help??

probably not :)

Well - I can see how lying doesn't seem as bad as murder. I was thinking along the lines of malicious life damaging lies.

You may well be right that sin is sin. I just struggle with that right now, especially when it seems that less damaging behavior is often treated as if it is more sinful.

[beginagainrose]

Sin literally means "missing the mark"... the standard of God. Holiness; sinLESSness... all have sined... missed the mark...Hope... you are right...as weird as it seems to us... sin is all the same to God... we are the ones that "rate" it like a scale of one to ten.

I do agree with you as well Simka, that homosexuality is not worse. In fact, it angers me that people like Ted Haggard are treated with such cruelty.

I would go a step further to say that God's judgement on this nation is due to the actions of the Church not the lost. Judgement begins with the house of God. Spiritual abuse then is like any other sin... wow... now that IS a tough concept for me...:eek:

[Reg]

Well - I can see how lying doesn't seem as bad as murder. I was thinking along the lines of malicious life damaging lies.

You may well be right that sin is sin. I just struggle with that right now, especially when it seems that less damaging behavior is often treated as if it is more sinful.
Granted sin is sin. Without repentance and forgiveness they all earn the death penalty eventually.

One more thing to consider about sin is.... because they are different, there are also different consequences. Some are worst than others. A price has to be paid now to varying degrees.