Next Step in Recovery

[Anna Marta]

Dear Friends,

I haven't hurt this bad since the day I left the old church. I think that is time, possibly overtime, for me to look for what God has in store around the corner.

I just don't think I fit here. I came under the mistaken impression that this was a place that Christians who had been abused could come and find help in how to grow past the pain and find a healthy connection with God again and maybe even how to dare to again enter a faith community.

Voyager, My first wake up call came when I thought I was telling you something you didn't know or understand about the foundation of the philosophy behind The Secret. It never entered my mind that I was offensive and and pushing my religion onto you. You see, if I had stumbled onto information that sounded that good, I would have been grateful if someone let me know that it was something that would lead down a dead end path and would take in the opposite direction from God and the Christian faith and indeed possibly from eventual healing. Looking back the more I tried to make you understand, the angrier you got and well, it is sad.

Ameen's thread wondering about the leadership of the forum was enlightening for all of us, I think. I know I learned a lot.

I don't think I am capable of communicating with some people on the forum without offending you. I honestly don't understand the emotional and psychological complexities of some of my fellow members caused by their addictions, past abuse and present emotional and psychological struggles. When I have tried to stand up, open up and be truthful (and those of you who still struggle with people pleasing and the fear of authority know how hard it is to speak up) I have discovered that I cannot handle the backlash that comes from disagreeing. For a long time I became the same old pleaser who carefully shared and weighed every word so as not to rock the boat. I had gotten good at that in my first marriage.

We talked about how healthy discussion and disagreement is, however when it begins the claws come out. I guess that is the result of what happens when dysfuntional people come together in a dysfunctional group in which there is no one to referee or keep things in order. As a member of many different groups in my life, as well as leading some, I know how essential to the life of the group a good moderator or leader is. It is not up to the group who comes with all their baggage and needs to discipline itself and be able to learn and grow. There must be someone who steps in and reminds people when they have gotten off the course or their communications have become aggressive. Group members trust a leader to do this. It is the essence of what makes a safe group and indeed, a safer forum board discussion between wounded and vulnerable people.

This board has become unsafe because there are no enforced boundaries, to say nothing of lacking a clear definition of what it is. For that we can thank Ameen's insight and effort to push hard for an answer.

I say farewell with a broken heart because now I need to go through the same process of self examination I did after leaving the church. I have to ask myself how much is my own fault and what I should have done better or maybe sooner. I will try not to step into a situation like this again where I risk being accused of being an abuser myself.

During this time of healing, I need to be with people who also want to know how to reconnect with God and learn to read the scriptures in healthier ways without fear of old interpretations sneaking in.

I want to meet people who have walked the path and can guide me with hope and love through the process, who can reasure me of the love and compassion of God as expressed in His Word and that His living Spirit is with me. I need to learn how to listen to Him again and trust what I hear. I want to regain my yearning to be fellowship with others in the light and hope that good things are waiting on the other side of this hard time.

It was a great mistake for me to think I could survive and find healing in a place where there are so many people who no longer believe in the basic truth of the importance of the cross and who believe they do not need Christ and do not want to have God in their lives.

Should anyone want to communicate with me my email address is: <<leah@garhovd.net>> Be sure to identify in subject line you are from forum lest your note be spamicided-

Warmly,
Leah (Anna Marta)

[Ameen]

(O.K., this is really the last post. I know I said that before, but I cannot be silent when someone is in pain.)

Dear Anna Marta,

You're human--and it's O.K. to be human. You're allowed to disagree with anyone you wish--anywhere and at any time. You're also allowed to make mistakes and seek understanding. You don't have to have all the answers, and you don't have to be perfect.

Maybe past thinking from abuse makes it seem like an all or nothing equation, as if you are either the best who leads everyone or nothing at all. (That's a problem in my own thinking that I continue to work hard to overcome, as I am usually cast in the role of caregiver.) It's really O.K. to be in the middle too--neither the best nor the worst. And anyone who is worth anything will not dismiss you entirely because of some things they disagree with. Those who do dismiss you for that reason were not worth it to begin with.

You're good enough as you are; don't let anyone else say otherwise. I think you're apologizing too much, and this too may be a cult holdover too. You are beating yourself up for not acting perfectly and not having all the answers. Well who does? I sure don't. If I did, I'd be a deity. Instead, I, too, am merely human.

In my eyes, you are a human being who does what she believes is right. You and I disagree on a number of things, but that is fine. Can you still say something that will be valuable for someone like me? Absolutely. Does that mean I will agree with you on everything? No.

So you insulted a few people. So what? Do you mean to say that no one else on the board has ever insulted others? Don't you forgive people? Why, then, shouldn't they forgive you?

It is so hard for people like us, people who have been abused mentally, to understand that there is a difference between people getting pissed at us for whatever reason and people outright rejecting us. (That is also something I still struggle with.) Yes, some things you said irritated me. I reject some ideas and have no qualms about saying why, but in no way does that mean I reject you as a person. I also do not reject your intelligence and compassion. Besides, you have as much right to be here as everyone else, just as you have as much right to recover as everyone else.

In addition, how could anyone come to a board where they talked about past abuse and religion and not insult others? People--all people--who have been abused lash out, often unconsciously. The idea is to learn and grow from it.

Years ago I could not utter more than a few sentences to Christians without calling them morons or some other choice terms. That's how deep my pain was/is. It took a long time for me to truly believe that treating everyone with respect was right, and sometimes I still struggle with that. I will, of course, sometimes fail in even my noblest efforts, and surely, despite my best intentions, in some respects I have also failed here. Again, so what?

I am sorry if anything I wrote has caused you pain. I write it as I feel it, and sometimes I do need to tone it down.

Communing with like-minded Christians is a good thing. Also, since your religion is important to you, working to gain a better understanding of God is also a good thing. No one else can tell you how to do it, although people from all walks of life may have some valid suggestions.

Only leave here if you really feel that is the best thing for you. Everyone here is hurting in one way or another, and a board like this can still help you enormously even if you disagree with folks on some things.

I wish you the best,

Ameen

[Ameen]

P.S.

Forgot to mention this in my post in this thread, and the fifiteen minutes for editing it have just ended...

It's O.K. to get mad at people if you feel you joined a board like this for one thing and got something else. It does not matter who is right and who is wrong (especially since, most likely, everyone has some elements of being right and wrong in a situation like this). Feeling your feelings regardless of what they are is the way to recover.

Feel as mad as you want at anyone here, myself included. Christians are allowed to get angry--at least that is what the Christians I know say.

Your anger will just turn to depression and come out in self-destructive ways if you don't express it honestly--and that goes for all abusive situations in your life. Stiff upper lips work in British fiction but not in reality.

[Anna Marta]

Thank you Ameen for your kind words and wise advice.

Warm thoughts,
Anna Marta

[Gayle]

Hi Anna Marta,

I want to say I'm sorry you feel you need to leave. While I don't agree with your view entirely, I do understand where you are coming from in that I too was there at one time. I was given the ultimatum of living up to anothers' belief system or being abandoned emotionally. At the time I chose to follow that belief system and treated others the same way, but over time it simply did not give credit to how I really knew and understood God in my life. It did not allow me to live the way I believed Jesus was an example. I have not given up Christianity but I have given up the need to have others do as I do in how I understand my faith.

Yes, the Bible was twisted. I was not allowed to think for myself or decide for myself as I suspect many here were also treated this way. As other's have said before, they would shut down when feeling threatened with scripture, this is also true for me. So how would one become more comfortable with scripture if it keeps getting put on them. I don't think it helps to keep doing something that makes people cringe and cower. I think by respecting their request to not do this- that opens the door to better communication and feeling safe so that at some time in the future they might be more able to hear scripture if they choose. If it never happened it doesn't mean God is not working in their lives.

I wouldn't now submit myself solely to one or two persons or even a group and say tell me what is right and I will follow your teachings, regardless of how right they believe they are. Now I have a chance to decide what I do believe and make my faith in God my own faith, without having someone decide for me what I have to believe. It doesn't mean I don't want to hear from people like yourself. I think the difference is that I want to hear yours' and other's experiences and take from it what fits in my own life as I am able in time and as I learn to trust God for healing. How that applies to others I believe is between God and themselves. I believe we can encourage others and build each other up and keep our faith. This is my understanding of this forum.

Sincerely Gayle

[Willow]

Dear Anna Marta,

This entire situation heartbreaking and sickening. I've been in your seat and felt your feelings. I have to admit to being relieved I am not in the hot seat this time. I hear you. It's hard when we're all trying to figure out the unspoken rules and the forum owners seem to be absent. Thank God Jerry's here!

A couple years ago... I left too. I went and helped create a new safe place for myself. That helped me detach enough to participate here, but not have my very soul depend on it. Do you suppose that would work for you too? I would severely miss your voice here. When we're all focusing on recovery issues and not christian issues... I get so much wisdom from your posts. It's when this becomes a christian doctrine debate board that I get lost.

If I've said anything particularly hurtful, let me know and I will specifically apologize. I find myself in agreement with you when we are talking recovery, but in disagreement when we are talking doctrine.

I just wish we could have some separate rooms in this forum for those kinds of debates.

I'll email you.

Amy

[Voyager]

It was a great mistake for me to think I could survive and find healing in a place where there are so many people who no longer believe in the basic truth of the importance of the cross and who believe they do not need Christ and do not want to have God in their lives.

There are many people here who still cling tightly to their Christian faith, and there are some who don't. Just like some of the people in an A.A. group are Christians, and some are not. However, people who want to recover from alcoholism can still attend those A.A. meetings and find healing. It all depends on how much they themselves are determined to recover. However, one thing the A.A. group does not tolerate is crosstalk - which means correcting or scolding someone in the group. It is not our place to question the beliefs of those in a support group, because what our fellow group members believe has absolutely nothing to do with our personal recovery. It has to do with what we do and what we believe, not someone else.

I've found that it doesn't matter what the people around me believe as much as it does how they treat me. They could be an atheist, and as long as they treat me with respect I have no issue with their beliefs. On the other hand, they could be a Bible-believing preacher, but if they use their doctrines to scold and correct me for not obeying the Bible, I would rather be around the polite atheist. I simply have no desire to be around people who feel that they cannot function without controlling my beliefs.

Do we really need to be able to control the beliefs of the members of this forum to find healing and recovery? I think not. If you feel the need to be around Christian fundamentalists, then I would suggest finding a church that forces everyone to believe the same way. Then you could have your church friends who believe the way you want them to and you won't require the people of this forum to believe a certain way.

We can't make everyone here conform to our liking... that's what our former abusive leaders did to us. Nobody here needs anymore of that. I just wish the battles over the spiritual leadership of this forum would stop. We don't need any spiritual leadership here. All we need is a moderator who will keep the peace. The rest is up to what we do, not what our fellow forum members do.

I don't require you to believe a certain way to be your fellow forum member Anna Marta. I would hope that you would give the rest of us the same freedom. We came here to get away from people controlling our beliefs. No one should use that type of control here.

Peace to you. :cool:

[outcast]

Dear Anna,

I would like to echo the responses left by the previous posters. I do not see that you need to leave the forum or that you have said anything in your posts that people cannot get past. We are not always going to agree with each other. Like others have said, we need to get over it and move on.

I've been really pissed off this week because of all the stuff going on here and the way different people were treated. Now, I am at the point of getting over it and moving on myself because I realize that dwelling on it will not be a healthy reaction. I've learned what I need to from each situation in order to be a better christian and to treat others with respect.

I agree also with voyager that many of us here still hold tightly to the cross and the basic tenets of our faith. Yes, we disagree on doctrinal issues - many of which are probably man made anyway. But, we still seek to know Jesus in the reality of our lives without the distortion of abuse or the filter of the church or the mere understanding of man. That is very difficult thing to do indeed and scary.

The way I see it, if each of us abandons ship every time things get rough around here, eventually we will have no one with whom to share our experiences with. We need each other, even in our imperfections. Especially in our imperfections.

Regardless of our differences in opinion, I think that love is strong enough to help us to heal from the pain of the past week and to move forward. We love you here. Do you really want to go and leave that?

[Elisabeth]

Anna Marta,

As one who has come to the point of starting to be able to reconnect with God, and starting to be able to read the scriptures again, I find there really is a lot of good things with this forum.

I do find that one of the things that abusive ministers do is to make sure that we think that everyone has to believe the same way, and that non believers can't teach us anything. But it's not true. You and I are both Christians, yet we do not see everything eye to eye. Yet you can learn from me, and I from you. And you and I can also learn from people who are not Christians. See, what abusive ministers do is make faith extremely one dimensional. Yet it is not.

Jesus said the greatest command is "Love your God with all your heart, soul, and mind. And the second is like it. Love your neighbor as yourself." Abusive ministers don't go by this at all. They just go by "rules" which are made from twisting scripture. My present church has a simple mission statement, from this verse: Love God, love people.

So from my way of thinking, reconnecting with God involves reconnecting with people; the two are inseparable. And a forum like this, where people coming from different kinds of spiritual abuse, which resulted in different ways of believing in God, or, in some cases, not believing in God, helps with the reconnecting with God and people both.

[outcast]

well said, elisabeth. :)

[Anna Marta]

Thank you all for replying to me. Please read my post on the "Is a 7th forum...?"

I hated to walk away without seeking some kind of reconciliation or resolution. I came to realize that I was waaaaaay out in left field and shocked to think how I was being perceived. I could hardly believe it.

I have had no problems in relationships with nonchristians in daily life. We are unaware of the beliefs of most of our social acquaintances. I am often asked if I am a Christian and admit that I am, but that I am not active in any church. I have been asked what I think about different religious things and have not been accused of pushing anything. But then, I don't go out looking to engage people who I surmise are defensive or militant about their life choices.

When it comes to this forum, if people choose to get involved with New Age or agnositicism or pluralism that's up to them. But I can't encourage or support that and be an authentic and honest person, yet I don't seem to be able to express myself without offending or making it seem like I am requiring others to think as I do.

I can't find the commonality on this forum in the word Christian. Is it for:


Abused Christians looking for help to recover faith or relationship with God and other healthy Christians?
People who come here to tell their stories about Christians and/or churches/cults who abused them?
People who remain Christians?
Former Christians who are experimenting with other religions and want Christians to know about it or agree with it?

I am not a fundamentalist by any stretch of the imagination. Labeling Christians is a problem for me.

What am I? Am I a liberal in some of my beliefs and conservative in others? Am I a fundamental if I think the scriptures in their original form were inspired by God yet over the years lost a lot through translation? Am I a liberal because I understand how a homosexual person can love and serve God? Am I narrow minded because I think New Age mysticism is a dead end that will lead to an ever more self centered, egotistic life bent on making myself happy? Am I unrealistic because although I believe God does have ultimate power and control that the freedom He gives us to reject Him when He does not do what we want even if it leads to suffering and pain reveals his Love and makes sense to me? Am I altruistic because I believe former Christians who presently espouse atheism out of disappointment and hurt probably secretly yearn to be loved unconditionally by God and hope for eternal life? Am I stupid because I think God will pursue us in a myriad of ways until we draw our last breath?

With love and respect,
AM

[Jerry]

Am I stupid because I think God will pursue us in a myriad of ways until we draw our last breath?

With love and respect,
AM

Short answer ?????,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, ,,,,,,,,,,,,NO ;)

[Voyager]

Am I narrow minded because I think New Age mysticism is a dead end that will lead to an ever more self centered, egotistic life bent on making myself happy?

I personally would not hold that belief against you unless you tried to impose it on me.

I went through an experience that made me lighten up when it comes to imposing my beliefs on others. I had a really good friend at my former church. He was actually the person who invited me to the church to begin with. He is a photographer and he was the worship leader at our church. He and his wife were very close friends with my wife and I. We got together at their house and at our house very often, and we even went on vacation together.

One day right after I had shown up for Sunday morning service the assistant pastor asked me to put my bass guitar down (I was on the worship team) and they took me into the office. The assistant pastor and an elder began to tell me that my friend Ed (the worship leader) was gay. They said that his marriage hadn't been consumated with his wife, and that he and a male former church member had an affair. They said that they tried to work with Ed but that he recently told them he was "still having thoughts" so they decided to excommunicate him and his wife from the church. They used verses from 1st Corinthians to command me to "not even eat with such a sinner" and that I shouldn't take his phone calls.

I went back to my bass guitar and played in the worhsip team, but I couldn't stop crying for about 45 minutes. I was shocked. I was mad. I was hurt. I felt betrayed. I felt horribly sad for Ed, because I was sure he was condemned to hell for his wickedness of being gay. I didn't even think about Ed as a person. I thought about him as a sinner destined for hell. I no longer had compassion for Ed. I was worried about myself and my ministry. If God was writing Ed off to hell, so was I. The pastor told the entire church not to even pray for Ed.

I ignored Ed's phone call when he called. He became persistent, so I finally answered the phone and parroted off the same verse from 1st Corinthians that the assistant pastor told me, and I told Ed that I was going to obey the church and follow God's will and cut him off from my life. Ed politely said goodbye, and that was the last I heard from him for almost a year-and-a-half.

When I finally came to the conclusion that the pastor of my church of 475 members was abusive and corrupt, I escaped. Ed was the first person I called. I cried when I asked him to forgive me for cutting him off. My wife and I went out to dinner with Ed and his wife. We had the greatest time! We started going to Friday night karaoke at a local comedy club with them and spent countless hours talking about the abuse at the former church. We are still friends with Ed and his wife to this day.

This experience made me much more accepting and tolerant of people who are not like me. Ed told me that he came very close to killing himself after having the church reject him due to homosexual feelings that he did not ask for or choose to have. How sad. Ed was one of the nicest people I had ever met. Here I was now in a situation that if I needed to call someone when I had a flat tire on the highway, Ed would be there. I couldn't say the same for any one of the 475 members of the church that I had spent 12 years in. Who was the "Christian" in this situation? Ed was.

That's why I think we should focus on our own faith and our own relationship with God instead of trying to impose our religious beliefs on others - especially the members of this forum. You can't lose by having personal faith. God will not condemn any of us for not forcing our religious beliefs on the members of this forum.

:cool:

[Anna Marta]

You know what Voyager? That was a good post, thank you.

Okay, I am struggling with a learning curve, so bear with me.

I obviously need to learn the rules here, such as the difference between imposing on others and explaining my reasoning about something.

So, when it is okay to post something on a thread and when it is considered "cross talk" that is not welcome? Are we supposed to discuss things, if so when and how?

You may think these questions are silly, but again I have never been to any of the kind of meetings you all seem to be experienced with. I have never done any kind of 12 step (or whatever) program. I've never been in group therapy sessions. I come from a teaching and academic background in which discussion is encouraged and opinions are stated and backed up with facts. Geeze have you ever had a discussion with a Jewish believer? oiy veh.

I took to heart what Ameen wrote to me and was grateful for his insight. He was right on topic about my pleasing and guilt feelings for getting angry and being too direct. I don't know if anyone else has this problem, but I have found that posting on this forum can be like walking in a mine field.

I need to be working toward a goal or a series of smaller goals and talk about reaching them in regards to recovery. I have my story, and I know it effected me when it happened, and the impact on our lives as time passed and our feelings and thoughts changed. I understand going through the stages one experiences. I can deal with those kind of discussions.

I am honest in that my main goal from the beginning has been how to get back to a "normal" (faith) life again. I had no idea of the pot holes and blockades I would come up against, nor the collateral damage to every aspect of me and my daily life.

Friends, I am having an "Ah ha!" moment. I think I feel afraid when I hear how people's journies lead them away from instead of toward God. I forget that He is big enough to deal with His own kids.

Patience friends... patience... maybe I am the prodigal daughter???

AM

[Willow]

Friends, I am having an "Ah ha!" moment. I think I feel afraid when I hear how people's journies lead them away from instead of toward God. I forget that He is big enough to deal with His own kids.

Patience friends... patience... maybe I am the prodigal daughter???

AM

Ahhhh... the ole lightbulb in the dark room scenario!! Fear is a very strong motivator. I can see how it could cause reactions. Trusting God with others has been one of my biggest lessons too! It seems a very delicate balance and a thin line... sharing what works for you vs. telling someone what works for them is wrong. Very delicate. I mean... saying... "that didn't work too well for me" is way different than saying... "that's going to lead you into deception."

I'm still laughing to myself thinking about how JaniceB said they say "KEEP COMING BACK" when someone in an AA meeting shares an insane idea. They really do DO that! LOL

[JaniceB]

There are many people here who still cling tightly to their Christian faith, and there are some who don't.

That's an interesting statement and I had to ask myself which group I might fit in--not that I had to fit in either one.

I don't think I cling to Christianity. I think it clings to me. It just keeps coming back to me no matter how many doubts I entertain--and I seriously and intentionally entertain them. I've decided that Christianity is just right for me!