What is required to be a member of this support group? [Archive]

Voyager

01-28-2009, 11:03 AM

My only confusion on this forum has come when it seems that those who no longer want to "be Christian" or even believers in God, start pushing those that do, up against a cyber wall. Then cry foul when someone merely wants to show another side or what has nourished them.

A little over a year ago I shared on this forum that I had received some help from watching a movie called "The Secret". Several forum members replied to my thread and let me know that it was against the Bible and that I had strayed away from God and was pursuing the Devil. Bible verses were posted on my thread condemning me for my supposed wrong choices. That was the start of me leaving the forum. When I retaliated and used the same type of condemnation on those who had condemned me, I got banned.

I have never seen someone post on this forum about how the Bible has helped them and then get attacked for it. What I have seen is people using Bible verses to condemn other forum members for their supposed incorrect beliefs. Then when the person who was the target of the condemnation returns fire, the person who initiated the condemning remarks against them gets mad and replies with something like, "Why I am being persecuted for my Christian beliefs on a Christian forum. Why don't these non-Christians just leave this forum and find a non-Christian forum?"

I would never attack someone for saying how much the Bible has helped them. The arguments, attacks, and debates on this forum usually occur when one forum member tells another forum member that their beliefs do not line up with the Bible, and uses Bible verses to condemn the person.

Personally I don't think anyone needs to put a "trigger warning" on their threads when they quote the Bible. As long as they are using the Bible to tell about what has helped them instead of using it to scold someone else and put them in their place, we wouldn't have any problems around here at all. When I see a forum thread entitled "How Psalm 23 Has Helped Me Recover" I can choose to either read it or ignore it. Therefore, posting Bible verses in itself is not a bad thing... unless you use the Bible to condemn a fellow forum member's actions. That's when it crosses the line in my opinion. For example, you can't say something like, "Trigger warning: Jesus said in Matthew 18 that you are damned to hell" and expect that to excuse the condemnation you used on someone.

That's why it would be helpful to hear from Jerry or Dale as to whether being a Christian and obeying the Bible is a requirement to be on this forum. If it is, then we cannot complain when forum members scold us and chastize us for not being a good enough Christian.

Jerry, just to clarify, this thread was not posted to taunt anyone or to try to start any friction. There are obviously people other than myself that would really like to know if you are required to live by the Bible to participate in this forum. If you could let us know, it would end a lot of speculation. We have all had enough unspoken rules for a lifetime.

:cool:

Voyager

01-28-2009, 11:50 AM

I have been on this forum for about eight years, and if there is one specific issue that seems to cause more conflict around here than anything else, it would be this:

Some of the members of this forum are not content on being allowed to live by their interpretation of the Bible - they feel like everyone on this forum should be required to do the same.

In other words, it's a territorial issue. For example, if Ameen posted something about being gay, people who don't approve of that lifestyle can simply ignore his post. Or if I post something about how I liked watching the movie "The Secret", forum members who don't approve of that movie can simply ignore my thread. But that's not good enough for some forum members. They feel like everything posted on this forum should promote Christianity and the Bible. It's not enough for them to be able to practice their own faith here... they want all of the forum members to be required to practice it too.

That is why I think it is imperative to know if being a Christian and obeying the Bible is required to be a forum member here. If it's not, then we shouldn't have to worry about being attacked or condemned when we post something that questions what we were taught in our former churches. Likewise, if a Christian posts something about how the Bible has helped them, no one should condemn them for it either.

I can almost guarantee that you could search this entire forum and you will not find one post where someone was attacked or condemned for posting about how the Bible has helped them. (If someone can find one, please post it on this thread and I will send you $20 via PayPal - no strings attached.) However, you will find a lot of instances where a forum member bashes another forum member for their post not lining up with the Bible. If you were willing to pay me $20 for each one of those I found I could probably pay off my house with the proceeds.

I don't believe that the members who are complaining about not being allowed to practice their Christianity on this forum are being accurate in their assumptions. Their complaints actually come from not being allowed to freely condemn and attack other forum members with their Bibles. They believe that part of "practicing Christianity" gives them license to publicly point out the "sins" of others and condemn them for it. However, I do not agree with that assumption - unless we are in fact required to be a Bible-obeying Christian to be a member of this forum.

What I am trying to say here is this: Do you really need to have all of the forum members here to believe the way you do to get any benefit out of this forum? Why must there be a power struggle to find healing and recovery? Is it possible for you to find healing and recovery without forcing your religious beliefs on all of the members of this forum?

:cool:

Reg

01-28-2009, 01:24 PM

A little over a year ago I shared on this forum that I had received some help from watching a movie called "The Secret". Several forum members replied to my thread and let me know that it was against the Bible and that I had strayed away from God and was pursuing the Devil. Bible verses were posted on my thread condemning me for my supposed wrong choices. That was the start of me leaving the forum. When I retaliated and used the same type of condemnation on those who had condemned me, I got banned.......

What I have seen is people using Bible verses to condemn other forum members for their supposed incorrect beliefs. Then when the person who was the target of the condemnation returns fire, the person who initiated the condemning remarks against them gets mad and replies with something like, "Why I am being persecuted for my Christian beliefs on a Christian forum. Why don't these non-Christians just leave this forum and find a non-Christian forum?"

I would never attack someone for saying how much the Bible has helped them. The arguments, attacks, and debates on this forum usually occur when one forum member tells another forum member that their beliefs do not line up with the Bible, and uses Bible verses to condemn the person......

As long as they are using the Bible to tell about what has helped them instead of using it to scold someone else and put them in their place, we wouldn't have any problems around here at all....... Therefore, posting Bible verses in itself is not a bad thing... unless you use the Bible to condemn a fellow forum member's actions........

:cool:
John,
You have mentioned this many times before about us using the Bible to criticize and condemn you for your beliefs. You also mentioned others who received the same treatment. I can understand how you feel about "The Secret" thread but fail to understand where others have received the same treatment? Furthermore, you use a rather harsh term, "Condemnation". That implies, someone has it in for you. That their intention is to place judgement on you as an unbeliever and your non-Christian views are unwelcome here. Being a Christian Recovery site that is only reasonable. http://www.christianrecovery.com/vb/index.php

When someone judges you, you need to understand there are two reasons implied by that word.

Judgement to enact a penalty/condemnation.
Judgement towards discernment.

Depending on the intent of one judging you it can hurt when you are trying to be understood. From what I read, I did not get that those who commented where condemning you. Personally, I have learned to always to use the latter reason. I know what the Bible says about the former.

Discerning Christians here pointed out the fact that although it has a lot of helpful/useful things, "The Secret" was basicially "New Age" reasoning and is therefore anti-Christian.

The authors of The Secret cite the New Thought movement that began in the late 19th century as the historical basis for their ideas.[14][15]

Essentially, The Secret is ... touting the principles of New Thought and Unity Christianity. The teachers of The Secret have been regulars on New Thought/Unity circuit for years — now more "prosperous" than ever.[15] - Illuminati
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Secret_(2006_film)

Where you stated on your original post, "The beauty of "The Secret" is that it is not anti-Christian...." is not exactly accurate.

Here is what it says about the "New Thought" movement......"
The New Thought Movement or New Thought is a Spiritual movement which developed in the United States during the late 19th century and emphasizes metaphysical beliefs........"

Although New Thought is neither monolithic nor doctrinaire, in general modern day adherents of New Thought believe that God is "supreme, universal, and everlasting", that divinity dwells within each person and that we are all spiritual beings, and that "the highest spiritual principle loving one another unconditionally . . . and teaching and healing one another", and that "our mental states are carried forward into manifestation and become our experience in daily living".[2]

The three major, but distinct, religious denominations within the American New Thought movement are Unity Church, Religious Science, and the Church of Divine Science."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Thought

Much of this comes from Eastern mysticism which has been Westernised as "New Age." There's nothing new about it. The cover may have changed but the contents are still the same.

Now those who commented, where they condemning you for being helped by it. Not as far as I can see. It was their discernment that you where promoting it here. Something that Christians would naturally disagree with. They where pointing out to you the dangers of going down that path too far. I for one understanding this, only posted what I did to try to help you understand and hopefully point you in the right direction. Please remember, just because it works, does that make it right? It can also be a trap. It is a counterfeit.

Originally Posted by Patty View Post
[I]Because something gives us relief from our pain does not necessarily make it truth. It could lead us down the wrong path again.

Patty continued that theme in her next post....."I am just trying to do a little critical thinking here. Are you saying that as long as something brings you peace, even if it is not in the Bible (i.e. yoga) it is a good thing?....Could you also reasonably concur that the very thing that seemed at one time to bring peace and/or relief could eventually prove to be deceptive"

Lamisa also pointed out a similar theme.

At this point you started to become defensive.

"To be honest with you, it's that very mentality that causes me to stay away from this forum. I've had more than my share of religious judgment to last me a lifetime. Who needs it? If I needed it, I could go back to my former church (if it were still in business). I'm getting along in life much better without it, thank you. The problem with spiritual abuse is that you can leave the spiritually abusive situation, but it takes much longer to remove the spiritual abusive brainwashing from our minds. It gets so embedded that sometimes we don't even see it for what it is.

I'll leave it at that. Maybe I'll check back in sometime. Take care!"

Then secrethopes posted......

Re: The Secret
I just have this to say.

I joined this forum because it stated that this is "A coalition of ministries dedicated to helping the Christian community become a safe and helpful place for people recovering from addiction, abuse or trauma" (bold added for emphasis).

I joined because it also said "It is possible to regain that sense of blessing you once had when you first realized that God's stance towards you, God's 'yes', was not based on your performance, but rather on God's very own performance, that of Jesus, signed, sealed, finished, available in gift-form only."

The site appears to be based on the Bible. If someone does not believe that Jesus is the only way, then why are they here? They should at least be tolerant of the Christian view, wouldn't you say? There are other spiritual abuse recovery sites that do not claim to be for Christians.

I requested that my account be closed. So far I've received no reply. One of the main traits of a spiritually abusive Christian church or organization is blasphemy, as far as I can tell. But people in this forum would have me accept any beliefs, even if they are not Christian. But this is supposed to be a Christian forum. If I wanted to censor my Christian beliefs then I would not have joined this forum.

She left this supposedly safe Christian site as a result.

She was supported by others who believed in basic Christian principles also.

secrethopes said,
"I never said I felt attacked. I actually felt that Patty had been attacked. Others in the past, as well.

I believe that the book of Jude instructs us to defend the teachings that many here want to brush aside as personal choices. How can we claim the teachings of Christ and then dismiss other Scripture?

I asked to leave to avoid confrontation because I believe Christians are called to defend the Gospel. I grow weary of always being politically correct, especially in a forum that claims to be Christian."

John, you also said, "I still believe that Jesus is the only way to heaven, and "The Secret" does not contradict that in any way."

We were trying to point out to you the error in that line of thinking.

There is a lot more to comment on but it follows the same line of reasoning.

The attack by others you felt as personal where basically not an attack on you. It was on what The Secret was all about. Helpful to you. YES. But for a Biblical believing Christian. NO!

Now this supposedly safe place for Christians recovering from SA, several have left as a result as it not being the safe place they thought it would be.

That is why I felt compelled to reply to you John. Not to judge you in the condemning sense but to be very clear about where I and many others are coming from. You may not realize it, but we are very much the same and I am behind your recovery all the way. Like I said in another post, "Jesus said "I will travel any road to find you."

Likewise, I will try to help you in appropriate ways as Jesus would.

BTW, I would like you to point out where scriptures where used on others the way you said they were used on you. I am not familiar with those you mention.

Voyager

01-28-2009, 02:41 PM

John, you also said, "I still believe that Jesus is the only way to heaven, and "The Secret" does not contradict that in any way."

The whole premise of this thread is asking that if I change the way I think about the Bible or Jesus, does that mean my views are no longer welcome here? It has nothing to do with anything else. I may have believed one way a few years ago when I joined this forum. If my religious beliefs change, am I no longer welcome here? That is a very simple question.

If someone decides to question Christianity here, does that give other forum members license to criticize them for their choices? If so, then I would say that this forum is a group that requires members to obey the Bible and be Christians. The main reason that most of the controversy takes place on this forum is because no one seems to know if obeying the Bible is a requirement here or not. If it is in fact a requirement for forum membership, then it should be acceptable for other members to use Bible verses to criticize someone's choice. However, if obeying the Bible is not a requirement for forum membership, then I would assume that members using the Bible to scold and correct other forum members would not be appropriate.

It all boils down to what the forum membership requirements are, which is what I am asking about. Do you have to obey the Bible and be a professed Christian to be a member of this forum? The controversy would end once and for all if we knew what the answer to that question is.

:cool:

Voyager

01-28-2009, 02:54 PM

I know that there are some here who would like to see me hang myself and get banned again, but I won't go that route. I'm just going to wait and see if Jerry or Dale will answer my question. Once we know that answer, 99% of the controversy will be cleared up and people will know what the forum requirements are. If we are required to be Christians and obey the Bible on this forum, then we cannot complain when someone launches a Bible-bashing sermon at us saying things like this that are directed at non-believing forum members:

"Do not be unequally yoked together with unbelievers. For what fellowship has righteousness with lawlessness? And what communion has light with darkness?"

Shouldn't issues like that be left for church? Are we here to decide which forum members are Christians and which are not so we can make sure we don't fellowship with the heathens? Are we here to decide who is "darkness"? Are we here to run off non-Christians who have been abused by Christians? Those questions could be cleared up if my question is answered.

:confused:

Reg

01-28-2009, 04:38 PM

The whole premise of this thread is asking that if I change the way I think about the Bible or Jesus, does that mean my views are no longer welcome here? It has nothing to do with anything else. I may have believed one way a few years ago when I joined this forum. If my religious beliefs change, am I no longer welcome here? That is a very simple question.

If someone decides to question Christianity here, does that give other forum members license to criticize them for their choices? If so, then I would say that this forum is a group that requires members to obey the Bible and be Christians. The main reason that most of the controversy takes place on this forum is because no one seems to know if obeying the Bible is a requirement here or not. If it is in fact a requirement for forum membership, then it should be acceptable for other members to use Bible verses to criticize someone's choice. However, if obeying the Bible is not a requirement for forum membership, then I would assume that members using the Bible to scold and correct other forum members would not be appropriate.

It all boils down to what the forum membership requirements are, which is what I am asking about. Do you have to obey the Bible and be a professed Christian to be a member of this forum? The controversy would end once and for all if we knew what the answer to that question is.

:cool:
Not according to the basic rules here. One of which is.....

How has your view of God changed?

To criticize their opinions and views is not quite the same as criticizing them. One is a difference of opinion, the other is character assassination. Two quite different things. Albeit, it can be difficult sometimes to see the difference when one is still struggling with personal issues.

As far as obeying the Bible goes, it is a basic requirement for Christians. However, this may be the goal/ideal, but I/we all fall far short of this especially if we are not sure any longer if we can believe what it says because of the way our abusers have used it to control us. They have proof-texted their own doctrines using scripture inappropriately. So we naturally have somewhat of an aversion to scripture and those who use it. The main difference is - what is the motive of the one using scripture? To criticize, condemn, control or to edify, support, give hope and encouragement to those who are sensitive to the use of scripture.

Again, the Bible should not be used as a weapon to criticize others who we disagree with. Because we as Christians view it as the foundation of truth, by it's very nature it can disturb those who do not view it as such. But to maliciously use it in a condemning way should be avoided. Again I want to emphasis this. For those who are hurting because of this kind of past abuse we need to be sensitive when we quote scripture and use it as a comfort to support and uplift.

The terms you use like scold overstate what members here have done when quoting the Bible. Correction is more the term and yes, if I/we consider it our source of truth and we see something in direct contradiction of that truth, as Christians we will point that out.

Remember this important point John as if you really don't understand it. We are all struggling with our Christianity at different levels. Some are not sure if they are even Christians anymore. But those of us who are sure will do what we can to support them and aid them to find the answers. We have to extend Grace to all who come here having difficulty with an identity issue.

If some here are not believers, we can and have been gracious to them, but to give them a platform to state their non-Christian views on a Christian recovery site cannot be tolerated for any length of time. There will inevitably be trouble brewing. To say that we cannot walk together except we be agreed is basic common sense. It's a bit like a marriage. How can two people stay married when they are in basic agreement about the important things in life?

Reg

01-28-2009, 04:46 PM

Correction, the last line should read, "It's a bit like a marriage. How can two people stay married when they are in basic disagreement about the important things in life?"

Voyager

01-28-2009, 04:48 PM

If some here are not believers, we can and have been gracious to them, but to give them a platform to state their non-Christian views on a Christian recovery site cannot be tolerated for any length of time. There will inevitably be trouble brewing.

There you have the issue at hand Reg. The "trouble" that brews does not come from Jerry or Dale, but rather, it comes from those members who feel like every member of this forum must obey the Bible. If we could find out if in fact obedience to the Bible is a forum requirement, all controversy and speculation would cease. Being a pragmatist, it seems best to me that we should focus on the issue that is causing all the conflict - which is this: What are the religious requirements of joining this forum?

This is where the gray area lies, because I don't remember seeing anything that required forum members to agree with the Bible or another forum member's interpretation of the Bible when we registered. If I missed something, or if someone knows where these forum requirements are posted - please let me know.

Will you at least agree with me that having unspoken rules can be a source of conflict and controversy? If there are rules other than what I have read, I would certainly be willing to read and obey them. This is not my forum, and I have no right to tell anyone how they should act here. I am just trying to find out what the parameters are myself to see if my religious beliefs are in violation of the forum's basic religious requirements - if in fact there are any. I would rather know what the rules are up front than to have people post Bible verses in my threads to scold and correct me.

:cool:

Reg

01-28-2009, 05:04 PM

There you have the issue at hand Reg. The "trouble" that brews does not come from Jerry or Dale, but rather, it comes from those members who feel like every member of this forum must obey the Bible. If we could find out if in fact obedience to the Bible is a forum requirement, all controversy and speculation would cease. Being a pragmatist, it seems best to me that we should focus on the issue that is causing all the conflict - which is this: What are the religious requirements of joining this forum?

This is where the gray area lies, because I don't remember seeing anything that required forum members to agree with the Bible or another forum member's interpretation of the Bible when we registered. If I missed something, or if someone knows where these forum requirements are posted - please let me know.

But don't you agree that having unspoken rules can be a source of conflict and controversy? If there are rules other than what I have read, I would certainly be willing to read and obey them.

:cool:
Please reread what I just wrote below: "As far as obeying the Bible goes, it is a basic requirement for Christians period. However, this may be the goal/ideal, but I/we all fall far short of this especially if we are not sure any longer if we can believe what it says because of the way our abusers have used it to control us............"

I do not read anywhere that obeying the Bible is a requirement here. Why do you keep asking the same question? We all struggle with obeying it!

The trouble brewing comes from as I stated below..."It's a bit like a marriage. How can two people stay married when they are in basic disagreement about the important things in life?" not about obeying the Bible as a forum requirement as you stated. It's a matter of how one views life. It tends to be exacerbated when the so-called fox enters the hen house.

Elisabeth

01-28-2009, 05:10 PM

I also think the Bible has been used to scold here, on this forum. Not good. :(

Voyager

01-28-2009, 05:23 PM

I do not read anywhere that obeying the Bible is a requirement here.

Well then the issue is settled unless Jerry or Dale dispute it.

If in fact I am not required to obey the Bible to be a member here, then no one has the right to use the Bible to criticize my beliefs. Likewise, I have no right to criticize your religious beliefs. We are here due to our common desire to recover from spiritual abuse, and not to be evangelized by each other. That makes this forum just like any other recovery forum that does not require members to have a specific religious affiliation such as A.A., N.A., Weight Watchers, etc. None of those recovery groups require members to obey specific religious doctrines, nor do they criticize members for not embracing a specific religious faith. In other words, this is just a support forum and not a church. No one here should feel the need to make sure that everyone here shares their religious views.

That makes things much more clear to me.

:)

Reg

01-28-2009, 05:24 PM

I also think the Bible has been used to scold here, on this forum. Not good. :(
Agreed Elisabeth. Not good. We all should endeavour to avoid this.

Can you give me an example?

Reg

01-28-2009, 05:31 PM

Well then the issue is settled unless Jerry or Dale dispute it.

If in fact I am not required to obey the Bible to be a member here, then no one has the right to use the Bible to criticize my beliefs. Likewise, I have no right to criticize your religious beliefs. We are here due to our common desire to recover from spiritual abuse, and not to be evangelized by each other - just like any other recovery forum that does not require members to have a specific religious affiliation.

That makes things much more clear to me.

:)
OK John, how about this for clarity?

This is the place specifically for Christians to help them recover from many different areas of their lives. This webpage clearly states that!

Christian Recovery International
Helping the Christian community become a safe place for people recovering from addiction, abuse, or trauma.
http://www.christianrecovery.com/

Spiritual Abuse Recovery
Resources for people recovering from spiritual abuse.

This is the one place where Christian Recovery International has for those of us who consider ourselves Christians who suffered SA. It is under the umbrella of CRI. So then why is it so hard for some who come here not to understand this? There are other places where they can go to receive the help and support they feel they need.

As CRI says above: "Helping the Christian community become a safe place...."

There are some Christians who have left this site because they no longer consider this a safe place. The boundaries of the SA site need to be clearly those of the Christian Community. Anyone coming here that question that need to be clearly told they are to understand this. We should not have to apologize or defend our Christian beliefs to those who come to the SA site with other beliefs.

While belief in Jesus as Saviour is Christianity101 obeying what the Bible says and believing it are not the same. For those who have been abused by inappropriate use of scripture by twisting it for an abusers purpose, even believing it as a source of truth, can be extremely difficult to do let alone obeying it. So, harping on obeying it is a moot point.

Voyager

01-28-2009, 05:31 PM

P.S. - If my assumptions are wrong, please correct me. I really do desire to know what the requirements are so I can abide by them.

:)

Voyager

01-28-2009, 05:33 PM

OK John, how about this for clarity?

This is the one place where Christian Recovery International has for those of us who consider ourselves Christians who suffered SA. It is under the umbrella of CRI. So then why is it so hard for some who come here not to understand this? There are other places where they can go to receive the help and support they feel they need.

Reg, are you stating this as a direct quote from Dale Ryan?

If in fact this is the case, I would like to know. This would clear out about half of the forum members here. Please let me know where you got this quote from, and where it is posted. Please don't give me your "interpretation" of Dale's rules... please make sure that if you post the forum rules, make sure to post them accurately as they were written - not as you interpret them.

This speculation will never end until Jerry or Dale state what the religious requirements for this forum are - if in fact there are any. If there are none, then none of the forum members here should be shamed or criticized for their beliefs by other forum members.

:confused:

Reg

01-28-2009, 05:38 PM

Reg, are you stating this as a direct quote from Dale Ryan?

If in fact this is the case, I would like to know. This would clear out about half of the forum members here. Please let me know where you got this quote from, and where it is posted. Please don't give me your "interpretation" of Dale's rules... please make sure that if you post the forum rules, make sure to post them accurately as they were written - not as you interpret them.

:confused:
John, I've said all I'm going to say about this. I'll let Dale/Jerry clear it up for you. I can't be any clearer. As I said, It is now a moot point.

Voyager

01-28-2009, 05:42 PM

OK John, how about this for clarity?

Christian Recovery International
Helping the Christian community become a safe place for people recovering from addiction, abuse, or trauma.

...So then why is it so hard for some who come here not to understand this? There are other places where they can go to receive the help and support they feel they need.

Likewise, the Baptist church down the street from me is there to promote Jesus. However, if I decided to attend an A.A. meeting at that church, no one would be there to belittle my lack of religious beliefs, nor would anyone launch Bible verses at me to correct or scold me for what I said in a group sharing session. But that kind of thing does actually happen on this forum.

I guess what it boils down to is this: Is this forum a place designed to allow forum members force their religious beliefs on other forum members, or is it a place to heal and recover from spiritual abuse? I can't see how it could possibly accommodate both, because that is what causes 99% of the controversy that takes place here.

Anyway, this thread will go on forever unless Dale or Jerry tell us what the forum's religious requirements are.

:confused:

Anna Marta

01-29-2009, 03:48 AM

I want add to what Reg had tried to explain, religious and performance related belief in the scriptures and following of the bible is certainly not the important issue. The issue is whether this forum is designed for the support of people who want to recover from spiritual abuse while they continue to define themselves as Christian even though they doubt their beliefs and the goodness of God .

Butterfly feels that I have changed in the way I love and support others in their path to recovery. You accuse me of trying to force people to only believe in they way I do.

I have not changed my support for individuals whose lives I continue to value and care deeply about. What I am trying to do is to show the love that reminds everyone that though we many change and our beliefs may change, that does not change nor negate God's truths. Regardless of where we find ourselves on our journey, the message of the bible and the death of Christ and the love & mercy and will of God for all of us does not change. I believe as the bible says that He will continue to seek out His own by any and all means and He does not care if we are offended by His Ways or words, He only cares that we return to Him. He loves us so much that He will to continue to pursue us even if we rage against Him.

That is the kind of love that knows no limit and will not give up and that is the kind of love I have wished my entire life to receive from another person. I surmise that is what I have found in my husband finally. It is certainly the kind of love I am trying to show people here. I love you enough to not back away from the eternal truth of God.

I went to the URL "christianrecovery.com" which is Christian Recovery International on the banner it says, "Helping the Christian community become a safe place for people recovering from addiction, abuse, or trauma."At the top is Home (http://www.christianrecovery.com/vb/../wordpress)-Links (http://www.nacronline.com/links-directory) -Forums (http://www.christianrecovery.com/vb/index.php?styleid=7) -News (http://www.christianrecovery.com/vb/../wordpress/?page_id=34) -Contact (http://www.christianrecovery.com/vb/../wordpress/?page_id=22)

Clicking on Forum takes you to THIS forum.

Under Resources I found many things listed, here are several:

Spiritual Abuse Recovery (http://www.spiritualabuse.com/) direct scripture quote on banner at top - "You were bought with a price; do not become slaves of men." I Cor 7:23

Direct Quote from introduction:
"Well, if you have experienced spiritual abuse, you know result. We hope the resources at this web site will be helpful to you. The damage that has been done is not irreversible. It is possible to feel safe again. It is possible to learn to rest again. It is possible to regain that sense of blessing you once had when you first realized that God’s stance towards you, God’s ‘yes’, was not based on your performance, but rather on God’s very own performance, that of Jesus, signed, sealed, finished, available in gift-form only."
Jeff VanVonderen

NACR - which is part of this forum - direct quote -
"Sinking our roots more deeply everyday into the soil of God's grace and love."

CSM - Christian Survivors Ministries
Direct quote - "Christian Survivors Ministries is centered around a well moderated message board (http://www.christiansurvivors.com/forums). We have a five year old, & thriving community of survivors - all seeking to support each other through the realities of daily living as a survivor! It is run by a group of christian survivors, who work together to uphold the principles Jesus laid down in his life on earth : those of love, respect, & the acceptance of all fellow humans. As such, our forums welcome & accept members of any faith or beliefs!" (highlights are my own)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Now it would seem to me after reading through the various sites and resources, that it is evident the "Christian" resources are exactly and unapologeticaly what they are advertised as being "Christian Resources." The CSM resource is the only one that clearly states that it welcomes and accepts members of any faith or beliefs.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
I did not come to a Christian site to have to defend Christ. I came here to find out how I could share with others who were abused by the twisting of God's truth in order to serve themselves and traumatized me in their efforts.

I wanted to bounce around with others and seek their wisdom on how they were able to reconnect with their faith and relationship with God. I wanted to find out, from those who know, the twists and turns in that journey and to share with others who are suffering the same pain. It has been rather scarey for me to connect with people whose journey on this site has taken them away from Christ and who look down on me because I want to believe and share my faith and because I point out the dangers of seeking healing in mystical and New Age type ideas that have proven to be dangerous traps and dead ends.

When it comes to being in agreement, we can talk about anything else on this site except our Christian faith and that which has helped us to reconnect with God, (which is one of the objects of it). I cannot be expected to share and equate as just as valid as Christ the philosophies, other religions, ideas, New Age tactics for success and atheistic beliefs just to be a part of this forum.

It's pretty clear that there are serious questions needing to be dealt with by the owner's of this site/forum. I am waiting to see, just like you Voyager, what they will do. Being politically correct so as not to offend or exclude anyone is a predominant and prevailing issue in society today.

The Gospel message does offend and is offensive to many, not just those on this forum. The message of Christ is inclusive to all who love and accept His offer of the life He has to offer. The Gosple message does not exclude those who refuse to accept it, they exclude themselves. It is then that they blame God for excluding them. God is God and He does not change, nor does His requirements to take advantage of all He has to offer. One cannot say No! to God and then blame Him because they are excluded from the goodies they could have had.

The many ways to preach the Gospel - following the example of living like Christ is certainly an important one. We must take note, that while he loved everyone, and showed that love and forgiveness especially to the most sinful and outcasts of his society, he did not soften God's laws or apologize to them who were offended by them. He made it clear that he did not come to change or abolish the law, but to fulfill it. He also made sure to say that the law was made for man, not man for the law.

The rich young ruler was permitted (had the freedom) to go his way. The woman caught in adultery was forgiven BUT told to sin no more! She was then given freedom to return into a society where you can be sure she would suffer greatly, maybe for the rest of her life, until she accepted Christ and found other followers of Christ. No one was told it was okay to reject God or Christ's sacrifical death and redemption. It was a tough message then and it still is today. Hence, while I love and forgive each of you who have misjudged my motivations, I cannot tell you that a path away from Christ is going to bring the same joy and fulfillment as His Way because it simply is not true!!!

The goal of recovery from Spiritual Abuse is healing that leads to the return to a healthy faith and relationship with God.

Respectfully,
Anna Marta

Willow

01-29-2009, 04:55 AM

Direct quote - "Christian Survivors Ministries is centered around a well moderated message board (http://www.christiansurvivors.com/forums). We have a five year old, & thriving community of survivors - all seeking to support each other through the realities of daily living as a survivor! It is run by a group of christian survivors, who work together to uphold the principles Jesus laid down in his life on earth : those of love, respect, & the acceptance of all fellow humans. As such, our forums welcome & accept members of any faith or beliefs!" (highlights are my own)

This is excellent Anna. It is what I had been looking for. I didn't even consider going to the survivors web site to look for a definition. Of course this is a christian site. I needed to hear the words that people of any faith and belief are welcome. Those are the words I long to hear. I wonder if a word could be added making it: "people of any faith and belief are welcome and respected?" I guess I am a little jaded. My church involvement always claimed accepting people "Just as you are", but then expected change and strongly encouraged conformity. I kinda liked it that our atheist friend felt safe enough to come here and ask us to respect him the way he is. It spoke volumes to me of the safety of this forum. We have become pretty safe. I do think people out there are STARVED to be accepted just as they are without one plea to change. To the point that they will become the EXACT OPPOSITE of who they were and then come back to the christians asking to be accepted. I know I am starved in this way. I've gone through different stages reacting to my church experiences - where I was never good enough. One particularly wild stage was a LOT of fun! I had to grow through that one though. All of this is part of the deconstruction and reconstruction of my faith. Turns out I'm a lot healthier when I don't try to label myself as a christian. It opens a whole new world of friends and soulmates out there for me to be a believer in God in a more general sense.

Anyhoo... just wanted to acknowledge this... it really put a piece of the puzzle in place for me. I wonder why the site doesn't have one of those pages with the nicean creed on it like most ministry web sites do? I guess it wouldn't really matter because what is being asked is not if this is a christian site. It's being asked, is anyone welcome to share from their experience, strength and hope even if it is outside of biblical bounds. Voyagers past experience here - enthusiastically sharing his delight in finding something that worked for him then being told it was of the devil. Can you imagine how those strong warnings made him feel? He had no clue it was offensive. He was just thrilled to find something that worked for him. Here's the rub: In AA he would have been applauded and asked questions and supported. But in the church he would have been corrected, warned, and if he didn't repent - kicked out of church (off the forum). This is the contrast we are looking at. Is christian correctness more important than abuse recovery here? If it is... then we all know to only post those things that are doctrinally correct and people can avoid the wall Voyager ran into that wounded him so deeply.

It's not about excluding or looking down on anyone. If this was my forum, I'd want it to be respectful of each and every journey to recovery, with or without Christ. But its not my forum. There are other places like that and perhaps this needs to be the forum that draws the line... ONLY CHRISTIAN SOLUTIONS ALLOWED HERE. If so... it should be really loud and clear so no one hits that wall ever again. It's a VERY painful wall to hit.

jimsmuse

01-29-2009, 07:20 AM

Voyager,

It breaks my heart to think you really believe that anyone here wants you "hanged or banned". I love you, I think this thread has been priceless! Thank you for starting it...we just all need the space to talk it out and that's what this forum provides..I don't think you realize the place you have here.

Butterfly, you are precious and much valued here. You are a sweet encouraging voice that comes from much pain. That in itself goes against reason, much less, human nature.

Thank you Reg, Anna Marta, Willow...This is what my soul needed!

Voyager

01-29-2009, 10:03 AM

It breaks my heart to think you really believe that anyone here wants you "hanged or banned". I love you, I think this thread has been priceless! Thank you for starting it...we just all need the space to talk it out and that's what this forum provides..I don't think you realize the place you have here.

I feel like maybe some people think I am here just to stir up issues, but I'm not. I'm here for the same reason everyone else is - to heal and recover from spiritual abuse. But there has been one issue that has been a source of major contention here for many years that has never been made clear: What are the religious requirements to be a member of this forum? That question has never been answered, and it gets argued about almost every week here. Even Anna Marta agreed:

It's pretty clear that there are serious questions needing to be dealt with by the owner's of this site/forum. I am waiting to see, just like you Voyager, what they will do.

:cool:

Anna Marta

01-29-2009, 10:20 AM

This is excellent Anna.

It is what I had been looking for. I didn't even consider going to the survivors web site to look for a definition.

I do think people out there are STARVED to be accepted just as they are without one plea to change. To the point that they will become the EXACT OPPOSITE of who they were and then come back to the christians asking to be accepted. I know I am starved in this way. I've gone through different stages reacting to my church experiences - where I was never good enough. --- All of this is part of the deconstruction and reconstruction of my faith.

Turns out I'm a lot healthier when I don't try to label myself as a christian.

It opens a whole new world of friends and soulmates out there for me to be a believer in God in a more general sense.

I wonder why the site doesn't have one of those pages with the nicean creed on it like most ministry web sites do? I guess it wouldn't really matter because what is being asked is not if this is a christian site. It's being asked, is anyone welcome to share from their experience, strength and hope even if it is outside of biblical bounds.

Voyagers past experience... In AA he would have been applauded and asked questions and supported. But in the church he would have been corrected, warned, and if he didn't repent - kicked out of church (off the forum). This is the contrast we are looking at. Is christian correctness more important than abuse recovery here? If it is... then we all know to only post those things that are doctrinally correct and people can avoid the wall Voyager ran into that wounded him so deeply.

It's not about excluding or looking down on anyone. If this was my forum, I'd want it to be respectful of each and every journey to recovery, with or without Christ. But its not my forum. There are other places like that and perhaps this needs to be the forum that draws the line... ONLY CHRISTIAN SOLUTIONS ALLOWED HERE. If so... it should be really loud and clear so no one hits that wall ever again. It's a VERY painful wall to hit.

Dear Willow,

Thanks for the response.

The other forum does have a section just for Christians (Mercy, I think it is called) to share faith and scripture. It appears they are very strict about how one shares scripture or their faith in other sections. It is a way to keep "abusive Christians who are dressed in sheeps clothing" from abusing on the site. They also appear strict with their long list of rules, they have a 3 strike policy that says you get 3 warnings then you are banned. Should you want to return you must begin at the beginning again and apply. Now that is much tougher than this site.

You wrote, "If this was my forum, I'd want it to be respectful of each and every journey to recovery, with or without Christ."

Would respect stretch to include a journey that would include someone:

suggesting cocaine or herione use because it helps them forget and feel happier.
saying alcoholoism is a helpful recovery means because when they drink they feel high and happy.
who indulges in self mutilation as a good recovery path because the pain of the cutting shuts out the pain of the abuse.

I surmise your consience would have you set boundaries and not allow you to keep from warning them about the dangers they will incurr. It is healthy to respect a person and not respect/accept their life choice and not be required to allow them to purport it to others in a group of vulnerable people.

I do not think it would be permitted for someone to come to an AA meeting, introduce themselves and share how drinking and being in a drunken state once a month makes them happy and is leading them to full recovery. Would they have a right to do that and require the group and leaders to accept them, and then accuse the leaders and group of being unloving, uncaring and abusive and causing them the pain of rejection if they were corrected and warned? By virtue of the title AA people are supposed to know what the group stands for and respect and abide by their rules and beliefs. AA is known for their acceptance of a person while rejecting and helping to correct harmful behavior. They don't allow nonalcoholics to come to meetings and rage against their rules and beliefs. Is that respecful and healthy or abusive?

It has been pointed out by people far wiser than I "Although all things may be available to us, not all things are good for us." It isn't about what makes us happy, but what leads to life and health and real spiritual recovery.

I think you are a wonderful person and I have a great deal of respect for you. Even though we agree that we disagree on some things we have been of help to each other and that is good.

Love,
Anna Marta

Anna Marta

01-29-2009, 10:52 AM

I feel like maybe some people think I am here just to stir up issues, but I'm not. I'm here for the same reason everyone else is - to heal and recover from spiritual abuse. But there has been one issue that has been a source of major contention here for many years that has never been made clear: What are the religious requirements to be a member of this forum? That question has never been answered, and it gets argued about almost every week here. Even Anna Marta agreed:
:cool:

We wait expectantly for a response- maybe all of us.

Voyager, I respect you as a good man who is struggling to grow and heal. We disagree on some things and that is healthy. What is not healthy is our trying to function with, as you so aptly put it, "unwritten rules." It is those assumptions that have caused friction.

If you will bear with me for a minute, I want to engage you in something. I am actually not sure where you stand in a relationship to Christ and the importance of His sacrifical death. I am assuming (a dangerous thing to do) that you, (because you were so terribly abused by a Christian person or pastor), no longer believe in the salvation message. But, I may be quite wrong in that assumption. It can be that you wrote about these things and I missed them.

I am struggling more than anyone comprehends with how to show my love, respect and acceptance of the people I meet without denying the importance of my faith in how I live, love, think and decide on my course of actions.

Although I have pretty much rejected the organized religious groups, Christ is the center of my life and my faith and relationship with Him is the essence of me. It is the underlying foundation of our marriage relationship. It is Christ's love and help that has gotten us through divorces, death of loved ones, serious diseases, chronic pain and limitations because of health issues, sexual limitations, bankruptcy and the loss of our home, savings and loss of our peaceful existance, spiritual abuse and betrayals.

I try not to preach, but to share my experiences, what I have read and what I think without forcing myself on anyone. I know you are of the feeling and opinion that I tried to force my beliefs on you when it came to "The Secret".

I ask for forgiveness for hurting and/or retraumatizing you.

I wanted to try to point out the dangers of the ideas in the book because I had personally been on that road at one time and have seen the disappointment and pain that resulted when others who believed in it tried to live out in their life choices.

I guess I don't know how to do that very well and have a lot to learn about the right way to share such things.

Again, I ask you to forgive me for pain I caused you.

Love
Anna Marta

Willow

01-29-2009, 10:59 AM

JaniceB

01-29-2009, 11:46 AM

Would respect stretch to include a journey that would include someone:

suggesting cocaine or herione use because it helps them forget and feel happier.
saying alcoholoism is a helpful recovery means because when they drink they feel high and happy.
who indulges in self mutilation as a good recovery path because the pain of the cutting shuts out the pain of the abuse.

Actually, it probably would be permitted and most of us would just chuckle. We've been there and know what that person is going through. We would urge him/her to "keep coming back."

We would also refute what he/she said and try to reason with that person to some extent after the meeting keeping the person's recovery foremost in our minds.

I can relate to the pain you're feeling, Anna Marta. I was a member of an NA group for a long time that I liked very much. One guy, though, was an out-spoken atheist. At first I thought he that he wouldn't be there long so I'd just wait him out. Fortunately, he's been clean and sober about 7 years now despite his atheism.

It got really old, though, whenever I tried to share about my higher power to have him immediately come in when it was his turn and refute everything I said. I actually got jumpy about the word "god." Finally, though I really liked the rest of the group I decided to leave. I tried for five months to really get the jumpiness out of my system and just deal with the atheist but I couldn't so I left.

I will say though that in the years I stayed I learned from this guy. He would talk about conscience and about giving ourselves credit for staying clean. Good points. He made me really look at my beliefs once again and decide for sure what I believed and what I didn't. It was because of him that I gave up praying to win the lottery, for example! :D I decided that if there is a good god He doesn't fix the lottery or football games for that matter.

That group is still well-attended so many other people who believe in God have no trouble with our atheist. I do believe he singled me out but I could be wrong. Maybe someday I can go back and be okay with it but for now it's too far to drive.

Anna Marta

01-29-2009, 11:51 AM

at the beginning of each meeting the rules of topic are laid out clearly. The focus is always recovery from alcoholism/addiction. There is never a dual focus in those meetings. Here we suffer from a dual focus. Christianity with a sub-topic of spiritual abuse.... Or..... Spiritual abuse with a sub-topic of christianity. See the conflict?

yep, i do...

Anna Marta

01-29-2009, 11:57 AM

I can relate to the pain you're feeling, Anna Marta.

I actually got jumpy about the word "god." Finally, though I really liked the rest of the group I decided to leave. I tried for five months to really get the jumpiness out of my system and just deal with the atheist but I couldn't so I left.

I will say though that in the years I stayed I learned from this guy. It was because of him that I gave up praying to win the lottery, for example! :D I decided that if there is a good god He doesn't fix the lottery or football games for that matter.

Thanks Janice B,

As always you help and comfort me. :)

Glad you got the lottery/good God connection. Geeze what would happen to the lottery, if everyone else did? :eek:

Love
AM

Voyager

01-29-2009, 01:18 PM

To me the whole issue boils down to loss of community. Most of the people on this forum lost their support system when they escaped or were kicked out of their church. They needed a new community. So they search the Internet for some kind of support group, and they find this forum. Here is what the front page of this forum looks like:

http://www.christianrecovery.com/vb/index.php

Nowhere on the page does it say that you have to ascribe to any specific belief system to join. The description of the forum says:

Recovery from Spiritual Abuse

This forum is intended for general discussion of spiritual abuse issues. If you had a bad experience at church and wonder if it was abuse, this is the place to share.

A visitor reads this and then registers to become a forum member. Here is what they agree to when they join:

In order to proceed, you must agree with the following rules:

Forum Rules

Registration to this forum is free! We do insist that you abide by the rules and policies detailed below. If you agree to the terms, please check the 'I agree' checkbox and press the 'Register' button below. If you would like to cancel the registration, click here to return to the forums index.

Although the administrators and moderators of Christian Recovery Forums will attempt to keep all objectionable messages off this forum, it is impossible for us to review all messages. All messages express the views of the author, and neither the owners of Christian Recovery Forums, nor Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd. (developers of vBulletin) will be held responsible for the content of any message.

By agreeing to these rules, you warrant that you will not post any messages that are obscene, vulgar, sexually-oriented, hateful, threatening, or otherwise violative of any laws.

The owners of Christian Recovery Forums reserve the right to remove, edit, move or close any thread for any reason.

They read the forum rules and agree to abide by them. Nowhere in the agreement does it say anything about requiring the new member to obey or even believe the Bible.

The new member joins the forum and feels like they now have a support group again. They enjoy the company of people who have shared the same type of spiritual abuse that they have experienced. They share their heart with the forum, and feel a sense of group acceptance again. They believe they have found a support system that will not use religious shaming and performance-based acceptance on them again.

Then after a few months or years of being away from spiritual abuse, some of them begin questioning some of the barbaric acts in the Old Testament and other controversial Bible topics. They share these thoughts on the forum, and they are met with criticism and accusations of trying to turn the forum into a non-Christian forum. So they argue that it shouldn't matter what they believe because they didn't agree to any type of doctrinal requirements when they joined the forum. A huge debate ensues... all because of the fact that one group believes the forum is a "Christian forum" that should enforce the Bible on its members - and the other group doesn't believe the forum should enforce any religious beliefs whatsoever on its members.

The battle then becomes a forum ownership issue, with two groups fighting over which one of them owns the rights to the religious rules and requirements of the forum. The common goal of recovery that both groups had formerly embraced together gets tossed aside, and hundreds of hours are wasted arguing over whether God or Satan should rule the forum. Many new members scatter and run for cover when they witness the same religious fighting that drove them to this forum to begin with. Many of them never return.

The thing for me is community. I've lost too many communities in my life. My dad left when I was 1½ years old. My mom got remarried when I was 10 years old and we moved to 10 different cities and I attended 10 different schools, each time having to uproot and lose my community again. Then when I was 21 years old I attended a church for 12 years that became abusive. There was no way to stop the abuse other than leaving and losing the community. I chose the latter and lost another community. Then I had nothing. I found this forum, and then a few years later it was decided that my religious beliefs weren't good enough for this forum because it is a "Christian forum". Rather than fighting and debating and wasting precious hours that could have been devoted to recovery, I started a new forum with several other forum members who didn't want to be condemned for their beliefs either.

Some would say, "Well then just go and enjoy your new forum and leave us alone." Sure, I could do that... I could turn my back once again and burn another bridge... I could walk out the door and accept the fact that my religious beliefs are not good enough for this forum... I could lose yet another community in my life... or I could try to reason with the good people of this forum and try to preserve the friendships I have made here and see if it is possible for me to post here from time to time without you using the Bible to correct and scold me with when you don't agree with my chosen method(s) of recovery.

I honestly believe that our religious beliefs do not have to be in agreement for us to find recovery on this forum. Our religious beliefs are personal, and they are between you and your God. The people of this forum weren't hurt by God - they were hurt by people. Therefore, our focus should be on community and trying to heal the wounds of rejection, exclusion, and betrayal that occurred when our former church members were turned against us. That is the wound that needs to be healed, and we are not going to heal it by launching sermons against one another. Those type of sermon attacks are what drove most of this forum to begin with!

Okay I'll get off my soapbox for today. Bottom line is, I wouldn't be here if I didn't want to have relationships with the people of this forum. All I am asking is that we don't judge each other and/or scold each other using Bible verses. Those Scripture verses should never be used as weapons on any of us ever again, because they trigger the very wounds that we are trying to heal.

:)

Voyager

01-29-2009, 01:46 PM

I wanted to add this: To heal wounds of community betrayal, one should find a community that will not betray them. To heal wounds of judgement and condemnation, one should find a community that will not judge or condemn them. To heal from wounds of distrust in people, one should find a community that will accept them for who they are. To heal from wounds resulting from having the Bible used as a weapon against them, one should find a community that will not use the Bible against them. We're not going to help anyone heal or recover by making sure the last forum post was Biblical or not. If the only way to heal from spiritual abuse is from God, then we wouldn't need this forum. We could stay offline and be with God and get healed. But our wounds came from people... so the way we heal those wounds is by establishing new and healthy relationships that are void of any type of spiritual abuse.

:cool:

outcast

01-29-2009, 05:57 PM

Voyager,
I do like you alot and do not have a problem with you starting this thread. I will say that Reg's insistent replies to you did make me extremely uncomfortable. Reg, you asked Elisabeth when scripture was used inappropriately to answer forumers. I feel that you were not kind in your use of it with voyager on this very thread. Since you asked for examples, there you have it.

If it was not your intention to sound pushy, Reg, you should clairify because the tone of your posts did read as though you were trying to force Voyager to see things your way.

Frankly, voyager asked for Jerry and Dale to answer his questions about the forum, not for us to have an open debate about it.

Reg it seems you and voyager have issues that really should have been handled with private messages. To have put them out in the open like this was quite tacky. This forum is supposed to be for healing, not further division and I don't think that the responses between you two were full of healing.

I am the type of person who has a lot of patience until I feel like I can't stand it anymore. It is sad to me that this thread has had more play in the past few days than any others and yet it has been the least helpful to my or anyone else's situation. This is just a bunch of senseless drama.

:(

Voyager

01-29-2009, 07:38 PM

This is just a bunch of senseless drama.

Do you really think so? I would have to humbly disagree on that issue, but you did make some great points. I believe that if we can resolve this long-standing question as mature adults who have a common goal of recovery, it would help all of us heal. If Jerry or Dale stated that all forum members are required to obey the Bible to be a member of the forum, it would clear everything up and everyone would finally know what type of belief system is acceptable on the forum - and what type of belief system is unacceptable.

I believe that clearing up unspoken rules would actually prevent drama on the forum. People need to know what is acceptable and what is not acceptable... especially after being spiritually abused and betrayed in groups that had unspoken rules. I really don't think it's too much to ask to know what the rules are. If I knew that it was acceptable for someone to scold me for violating the forum rules and having a wrong religious belief, I would not complain when it happened. But the right to correct other forum member's religious beliefs seems to be an entitlement here rather than a forum rule.... more like an unspoken set of rules.

Seriously, even if the rules of this forum excluded me because my religious beliefs don't measure up, I would prefer to walk away knowing what the boundaries were instead of staying here and getting scolded at random when I violated an unspoken rule.

:cool:

outcast

01-29-2009, 07:46 PM

I think that until Jerry and/or Dale comment on your issue, any resulting posts will continue to be senseless drama.

Voyager

01-29-2009, 08:36 PM

I think that until Jerry and/or Dale comment on your issue, any resulting posts will continue to be senseless drama.

You're probably right.

:cool:

Jerry

01-30-2009, 12:11 AM

Interesting thread,,,,,,,,,,,A "Litmus Test" for belonging to the Forum.Hmmmmm,,,,,,I'll take it under advisement :(

Reg

01-30-2009, 04:00 AM

Can't comment right now.Off to Florida this morning to do some golfing. :D

See you all when I get back.

Hope we can come to some sort of resolution by the time I get back.

Best wishes to everyone here.

Willow

01-30-2009, 06:32 AM

Interesting thread,,,,,,,,,,,A "Litmus Test" for belonging to the Forum.Hmmmmm,,,,,,I'll take it under advisement :(

Jerry... perhaps it's more of a need for us to have parameters of sharing... not telling us what we have to believe or who we have to be to participate... maybe a request to please keep your solutions within acceptible christian doctrine in order for others to feel safe here? That might work for everyone. I have lots of stuff to share within that boundary line and would gladly withhold any solution that falls outside of that boundary.

Jerry

01-30-2009, 09:22 AM

Jerry... perhaps it's more of a need for us to have parameters of sharing... not telling us what we have to believe or who we have to be to participate... maybe a request to please keep your solutions within acceptible christian doctrine in order for others to feel safe here? That might work for everyone. I have lots of stuff to share within that boundary line and would gladly withhold any solution that falls outside of that boundary.

"Acceptable Christian Doctrine" Who decides what that is ????? Some that come to this site have serious issues with God,some have serious issues with what they perceive as Christian Doctrine. Dayle Ryans "Basic Rules of Posting" state as follows;Responses to some of the following questions will almost always be helpful to others. . . I encourage all of us to keep the focus on recovery:

What has been most helpful in your recovery process?
What has been least helpful?
How has your view of God changed?
How have your relationships changed? With family? With people still in the spritually abusive group?
What do you think would help you to reconnect with God?
What can you do to break the abusive cycle? Are there ways you have passed on the dynamics of abuse? To children? To others? And what might help you to avoid that?

There's lots of stuff like this to talk about. Please focus on the recovery process. How can we respond in constructive ways to the spiritual damage we have experienced?
.These are the parameters of posting here.

Willow

01-30-2009, 10:06 AM

"Acceptable Christian Doctrine" Who decides what that is ????? Some that come to this site have serious issues with God,some have serious issues with what they perceive as Christian Doctrine. Dayle Ryans "Basic Rules of Posting" state as follows;Responses to some of the following questions will almost always be helpful to others. . . I encourage all of us to keep the focus on recovery:

What has been most helpful in your recovery process?
What has been least helpful?
How has your view of God changed?
How have your relationships changed? With family? With people still in the spritually abusive group?
What do you think would help you to reconnect with God?
What can you do to break the abusive cycle? Are there ways you have passed on the dynamics of abuse? To children? To others? And what might help you to avoid that?

There's lots of stuff like this to talk about. Please focus on the recovery process. How can we respond in constructive ways to the spiritual damage we have experienced?
.These are the parameters of posting here.

Cool... I like those original parameters. I just didn't think they were up to date anymore.

dougjb

01-30-2009, 10:17 AM

hi Jerry,
the status quo rocks my world.:cool::D

dougjb
some food for thought

Voyager

01-30-2009, 01:00 PM

"Acceptable Christian Doctrine" Who decides what that is ????? Some that come to this site have serious issues with God, some have serious issues with what they perceive as Christian Doctrine.

That is exactly the way I feel Jerry. There are so many different Christian denominations ranging from the type who picket military funerals to protest homosexuality all the way to the most liberal Christian denominations. How could we ever expect to all agree on doctrine? I don't think it's even possible, and trying to do so causes way too many disagreements and forum meltdowns. If this support group was focused on making sure everyone is a practicing Christian, I don't see how it could ever succceed.

Fortunately, Jerry's post made it very clear what the focus of this forum support group is:

Please focus on the recovery process.

If our focus is on recovery and not on religious doctrines, then all of the arguments regarding the Bible have nothing to do with the focus of this group. Also, I don't see anywhere in the forum guidelines where it tells us to make sure that our fellow forum members are obeying the Bible. Here is what the guidelines tell us to focus on:

What has been most helpful in your recovery process?
What has been least helpful?
How has your view of God changed?
How have your relationships changed? With family? With people still in the spritually abusive group?
What do you think would help you to reconnect with God?
What can you do to break the abusive cycle? Are there ways you have passed on the dynamics of abuse? To children? To others? And what might help you to avoid that?

These guidelines instruct us to talk about what helps you, not to tell others how they should live their lives. When we tell others that their beliefs are wrong, we are not focusing on our recovery. We are assuming the place of a spiritual leader over another forum member's life when we do that!

I am not bothered at all when people post Bible verses when they are sharing with the forum what has helped them recover. For example, if someone posts something like this it doesn't bother me at all:

2nd Corinthians has really been a tremendous source of help in my recovery from spiritual abuse.

However, if someone sees a forum post that they feel is anti-Biblical and then they post something like the reply below, they are taking on the role of spiritual leader over the person they are addressing:

What you posted violates the Bible, and this is a Christian forum. 2nd Corinthians 6:14 says, 'Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? And what communion hath light with darkness?', and therefore I am recommending that all of the Christian forum members cut you off from fellowship.

You may think these type of posts are rare, but I saw one just like this the other day in response to something I posted.

Don't you think that it is time that we stop trying to rule the spiritual lives of members of this forum, and start focusing on recovery? If you feel like you have to be in the company of Christians exclusively during your recovery, what is keeping you from attending a Christian church? This forum should not take the place of your church. This is a recovery group just like A.A. or Weight Watchers, and anyone who has been spiritually abused is welcome here. The focus here is on recovery and not on evangelism, and Jerry has made that very clear.

As Jerry stated, there are no religious requirements whatsoever to become a member of this forum. We are not here to impose our beliefs on others. We are here to focus on our own recovery (not anyone else's), and to share the things that have helped us recover. If the Bible has helped you recover, then by all means please share it. But when you tell someone else that they have violated the Scriptures and take it upon yourself to scold and correct them, you have taken on the role of spiritual leader of this forum without any authorization to do so whatsoever.

I hope this clears everything up and we can get back to focusing on our own healing and recovery from spiritual abuse and away from trying to enforce religious doctrines on other forum members.

:cool:

Voyager

01-30-2009, 01:34 PM

I just found this quote from Dale Ryan in the book "Soul Repair" from a time when he was experiencing distress over God's silence toward him:

While God still seemed to have nothing to say, his followers could not stop talking. Everyone had something to say, a verse to read or advice to give... The advice was glib, dismissive and shaming... I put these people on a list of people not to be trusted again with my spiritual struggles...

You see, Dale knows what it is like to have someone respond to his struggles with Bible verses in a shaming way - and the way he deals with it is to not share his spiritual struggles with that person again.

When someone is struggling, the last thing they need is a shaming Bible verse or a scolding spiritual sermon. I am glad that Dale has experienced this, and I was glad to see that he deals with it the same way I do.

:cool:

Jerry

01-30-2009, 02:10 PM

That's why it would be helpful to hear from Jerry or Dale as to whether being a Christian and obeying the Bible is a requirement to be on this forum.

Personally ,,,,,,, I don't see being Christian and Bible obeying as requisite to be on the Forum. Having said that,this forum does have a Christian bent. I think this board is for anyone who has suffered spiritual or physical injury at the hands of those who call themselves Christian ;)

Voyager

01-30-2009, 02:26 PM

Personally ,,,,,,, I don't see being Christian and Bible obeying as requisite to be on the Forum. Having said that,this forum does have a Christian bent. I think this board is for anyone who has suffered spiritual or physical injury at the hands of those who call themselves Christian ;)

That is what I figured, but it is good to see it in writing because it clears up a LOT of misunderstanding that has hung over this forum for many years.

The Christian underpinnings of the CR website are obvious because Dale is a Christian and he owns the website. At the same time, I understand that Dale started this forum to be a support group and not a church. Most support groups allow people of any race, religion, or sexual orientation - even the groups that meet in churches. Therefore it seems as though this online support forum operates just like most support groups do.

:cool:

Ameen

01-31-2009, 12:06 AM

Hello.

I'm not back. Rather, I have been e-mailing someone on this board, and that person told me about this discussion. I have read it through beginning to end, and I would like to share a few ideas.

I am writing this AS a person who will spend the rest of his life recovering from spiritual abuse. I am writing it TO other people who will spend the rest of their lives recovering from spiritual abuse. Why am I doing this when I have left the board? I will not be silent when I see people acting in a way that hurts themselves.

What concerns me most is that a number of people here are still espousing a black and white cult mindset. I do not say this to be unkind; rather, I see it all the time in cult survivors and in the OCD people I work with. Such people go from one version of extremist dogma to another, and, without even realizing it, they act in the very authoritarian manner they are against. This is what so many people are objecting to on a number of threads here, but I am afraid that some people just aren't listening to their words.

It reminds me of Christians who used to preach to me and could not respond in a human way to the pain I spoke of. Instead of hearing my words, they used the time I spent speaking to formulate new Biblical arguments to use as spears against me. If only they had actually listened to what I was saying, to my attempt to connect as a person.

Sorry if this is offensive, but the most conservative Christians are the worst offenders. Many people write as if only their version of Christianity is acceptable--exactly what my cult, the late Herbert W. Armstrong's Worldwide Church of God, claimed.

There are many approaches to Christianity, and many different understandings of Jesus. What you need to ask yourselves is whether you need to obey the letter of the law or the spirit in which it was intended. When you say you will not "compromise" Christianity or you must continually tell someone that what he or she is doing is unChristian (no matter how much love you think you inject in the message), is that merely an excuse for feeling safe within a rigid set of Christian do's and do'nts? Do you do it to help others or to make yourself feel better?

The Bible is the word of God to Christians, but it was humanly transmitted and thus limited to what its compilers knew and did not know. In other words, limitless expressions were set down in limited human language. They were then translated over and over and misapplied. Those misapplications then became part of the new translations. In addition, stereotypes, cultural attitudes, and idiosyncratic views were also written into them.

Maybe that is why Jesus summed up everything by speaking about love.

To some Christians, wearing jewelry is a sin, and they can quote verses to prove it. To other Christians, wearing jewelry is fine. Imagine if every time you tried to post about your struggles with coming to terms with the way you were abused, you were hit over the head with a Biblical condemnation of jewelry. Eventually, you'd get very mad. You'd have a very deep need to talk about real emotional trauma, and others would not let you because they were fixating on jewelry. So, you might post that you just wanted to be accepted as a person who wears jewelry... But others might say that they must not compromise their Christian religion by accepting jewelry. They might reason that if they accepted jewelry, they'd also have to accept people using necklaces to strangle others.

The question is: Does your God measure what is in your heart or the size of your earrings?

Now you understand where I am coming from. Granted, many of you have Christian traditions that call being gay or not being Christian sinful and wrong. I can tell you, though, that there are Christian denominations that accept people for who they are sexually and for who they are in terms of belief or non-belief. Forgive me if I am patting myself on the back, but I can also tell you that I have been told by a number of Christians that I am more spiritual than many of their fellow Christians. If the God you believe in is real, doesn't he REALLY know me better than any of you ever can? Shouldn't you trust him to sort it all out?

That is not what we should be debating, though. Look, some of you speak in tongues and some of you think speaking in tongues is nonsense. What does it matter what you believe when this board had been set up to help people recover?

For a variety of complex psychological reasons (that you can look up since there is no space for me to explain them here), people are using to forum to project their fears and shortcomings onto other. Those who are imperfect are demanding others be perfect, for in their unconscious that makes them perfect in God's eyes. The pain of their own humiliation is so great that they can only deal with it by overcompensating. They find people even lower than they perceive themselves to be and then use their Bibles to attack. Most do not do this on purpose--but they won't listen to what their fellow Christians are saying here.

It reminds me of a quote: "Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do."

This is, by the way, exactly what OCD people do--just without Bibles. Our compulsions are meant to take away the pain of our obsessions, except that they don't. Religious cults act like group OCD, so the similarities are not surprising.

Dale, Jeff, and the other silent people who run the board need to be aware of this and do something about the ill will here. If one of them had responded to my initial letter of inquiry before I joined and had been honest in telling me that I would not be safe here, I would not have joined. That they continue to remain silent even as this debate goes on perplexes me. It is very important that this board define who it is for and (if there are people not welcome here) who it is not for.

If it is for Christians only, you need to make it clear from the outset that non-Christians should not join. Grammatically, "Christian Recovery" means both "recovery for Christians" and "recovery from being Christian."

Since liberal Christian ideas have been shot down... If the board is only for Fundamentalists and Born Again Christians, you also need to make that clear.

I would hope, though, that the board could be for everyone.

Why do I say that? As a gay atheist, I am probably the equivalent of a Biblical leper or Samaritan or tax collector in your eyes. I ask you how Jesus, whom you emulate, treated such people. I don't even have words to describe how hurt I am by the way I was not accepted here, particularly since I bent over backwards to accept everyone here and offer any help I could. I have feelings too, and I cry too. I also want very much to recover. What I saw here is people who let their convictions turn them into unfeeling automatons.

Here's what you really need to know: When you act in such a judgmental, unaccepting way, that is how you represent all Christians. My atheist board is full of people who have been abused the way I have, and behavior like I have seen here is what ensures that we will continue to mock and degrade all Christians--if only to do what you do, to project and overcompensate unconsciously so that we can feel better about ourselves after being abused by Christians.

When does the circle of mutual abuse end?

Only when all parties are willing to put aside dogma and put the needs of people who are hurting before the letter of the law or their personal philosophy.

In reason,

Ameen

jchpiper

01-31-2009, 03:13 AM

Hi,

I joined this forum in April, 2008. I have never posted, only lurked.

Short background: I was involved for 28 years (18 to 46) with a bible-based fundamentalist organization. I left that group in 2005. I got involved with an ex/anti-org forum which did help some, but my experience there ended up similar to what I experienced in the abusive group, in that I experienced similar abusive tactics. I later learned that I was not the only one that had experienced those same tactics from that forum. Sadly, those involved in dishing out the same tactics (at the forum) cannot see that their actions have harmed ex-followers in a similar fashion as the organization.

My first book I read along the lines of spiritual abuse was VanVonderen's book The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse. It was a huge help. I read it 4 times and continued to refer to it for over a year. I still refer to it at times.

The only reason I post here now is to let you know why I never posted at this board. This will give you one person's outsider/lurker perspective. I am not trying to take sides; I am simply stating my point of view which may(?) be helpful regarding this discussion.

Plain and simple, I never posted here because I did not want biblical advice. At the time I joined this forum, I wasn't sure where my beliefs stood....and I'm still not sure. When I lurked around the forum, I got the sense that I would be out of place and would put myself in a vulnerable situation to have scripture quoted at me to help me in my recovery process. Whether or not that would happen is hypothetical...seeing as I never posted. Point is, I got the sense it would happen. I have found other forums at which to post where I felt biblical advice wouldn't be the case.

All that said, I agree with Voyager, in that I have no problem with a person sharing what helped them along the way, whether it be scripture or something along a New Age line of thought or whatever (as long as it isn't harmful to their neighbor).

I trust I am not out of line making this my first (and perhaps only) post. I simply felt led to post so as to give an outsider's perspective. (btw: this seems a very healthy thread...for folks to be able to openly discuss their community here.)

Sincerely,
~carol

(note: A link to a bit my story, if interested.
http://poetrypages.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=55&t=55346 )

Jerry

01-31-2009, 06:43 AM

Dear Jchpiper,,,,
Thank you for posting,,,,I hope that you choose to post again in the future ;)
Love Jerry

jchpiper

01-31-2009, 10:37 AM

Dear Jchpiper,,,,
Thank you for posting,,,,I hope that you choose to post again in the future ;)
Love Jerry

Thank you Jerry,

I'll just have to see. My cyber life is so full as it is! aargh! :eek: :)

btw: That sig is hilarious. :D

outcast

01-31-2009, 11:56 AM

Ameen, I know you are not here again as your post said. But, I wanted to respond to your post.

*Standing ovation*

I couldn't have said it better myself, my friend. Thank you for being so bold. I am very proud of you. :D

Reg

02-09-2009, 10:37 AM

Just an idea. This would eliminate the tug-of-war in the Spiritual Abuse forum over whether forum members should be required to obey the Bible or not, and would give the people who want to have a Bible-based recovery group a place of their own where no one could object to having the Bible used against them.

Any thoughts?

First of all let me say that this is not meant in any way as a slight towards you John, just wanted to clarify some things.

A few comments on this statement. Some I agree with and some I don't. Let me explain what I mean.

To obey the Bible or not. While all Christians endeaver to do this, none of us do. We use it as the standard of truth what we should and should not do. It is a beacon of light to us in a dark world. To say obey it would exclude ALL Christians. A more clearer explanation would be to say to respect what the Bible says.

The second statement: "where no one could object to having the Bible used against them."

I agree. For one, I would also object to that. The Bible should never be used for that purpose. Perhaps that should be clearly stated in the ground rules here.

I have endeavoured to use it to help, support, edify and comfort those who are struggling with their belief system and perhaps their Christianity. I may have used it inadvertently. Unintentionally it may have appeared I used it as a weapon. It was not on purpose or intention. I have mentioned many times I try to use it to comfort as scripture itself says "The comfort of the scriptures."

I would appreciate it if I use scripture in the future that seems to them that I am using it as a weapon to point it out. That may have happened once before in my recollection. I cannot recall any other times. ALL the other times I have received very positive comments from many here when I use scripture. It was very helpful to them.

Furthermore, this place is one-dimensional. It can only help us and take us so far. Only a FTF with someone gifted in counselling understanding SA can give us the personal help we all crave for.

While some coming here on a Christian Forum for SA can and have been offended, they must also put the shoe on the other foot. How about the many Christians coming to a Christian site who have been offended and consequently left this Christian site considering it unsafe? What about them? Who will stand up and support them? You can't have it one way without considering the other. The other side of the coin also has to be considered.

Furthermore, when it comes to debating the Bible here. NO WAY! There are many sites for doing that. Don't even let it come close here in an SA site. We just need to clarify that when the Bible is used, it should not be used the way our abusers used it as a tool against us. It should only be used as a help and support.

We could have a debate room about the things we disagree with but leave the Bible out of it. We will be opening ourselves up to some real contentions. We would be falling into the same trap many have in the past. Some can make the Bible say whatever they want it to. It is a personal book between the Creator and His creation. Those with His Holy Spirit can commune with God through it. To others it will be offensive in many ways. Those struggling with their faith because of SA and how it was used can be really turned off when the Bible is once again the method others use to defend themselves or attack others.

Voyager

02-09-2009, 03:36 PM

While some coming here on a Christian Forum for SA can and have been offended, they must also put the shoe on the other foot. How about the many Christians coming to a Christian site who have been offended and consequently left this Christian site considering it unsafe? What about them? Who will stand up and support them? You can't have it one way without considering the other. The other side of the coin also has to be considered.

Exactly. That's why I think it would be best to have two separate forums: One forum for people who want to recover using the Bible as a recovery model, and another forum for the members who are triggered by Bible verses. I don't see any other way it could possibly work without constant strife and debate. I wish I was wrong, but this forum has never been big enough for two opposing recovery goals. The arguing and hostility that these Bible debates created has driven a lot of people away from here over the past eight years - people from both sides of the Bible fence. Most of them decided that the cons of the forum (debates over the religious focus of the group) didn't outweigh the pros (support, healing), so they left. Who knows where they are now?

I realize some longtime members may have a difficulty "splitting" the forum into two groups, but there is no reason at all we cannot be neighbors and visit each other. Just as one of your neighbors might say, "Please don't smoke cigarettes in my house" when you visit their home, the people who visit the forum that doesn't use Bible verses will respect their guidelines and refrain from using Bible verses as advice, and the people who visit the Bible-focused group would respect their right to use as much Scripture as they like. In addition, the people who want to quote the Bible in their posts could be free to do so without feeling like they have to walk on eggshells in order not to trigger the people who are bothered by it. I think it would work great. It works fine with the different forums on this website already, so I can't see why it wouldn't succeed.

The biggest benefit of doing this would be:

NO MORE FORUM MELTDOWNS

Wouldn't that be sweet?

:cool: