Lost and confused

[Anna Marta]

I was getting lost and confused, so I decided to post my feelings about leaving to make the point about how those of us with traditional faith beliefs are routinely being put done, however politely, for expressing them.

In an SA church one is accused of being insensitive, not compassionate and rebellious because of expressing disillusionment with the pastor and others in leadership (the vocal ones). When we disagreed and would not buckle under when we were told we were not Christian enough because we refused to accept that our faith was dependent on what we did for the church and God.

On this Christian forum I think I have been labeled as insensitive, unloving and intolerant because I expressed my disagreement with allowing a gay, atheist, university professor, diagnosed with obsessive compulsive disorder from manipulating vulnerable, confused and wounded people with his carefully worded treatises.

I took university courses as an adult and sent 2 kids to university and know how very hard it is to be a Christian and express your ideals when your professors and teachers are very effective (experienced) at manipulation. They have a way of twisting your beliefs to appear to be a form of rejection and hatred of others. There is a big difference between listening tolerantly and having the freedom to repute ideas with the same effectiveness and thereafter being accused of intolerance and unloving Christian behavior because you refuse to accept them.

It has been confusing and hurtful to find a place for wounded Christians only to discover that those of us who have regained our faith and relationship with God feel unwelcome when we express our discomfort with anti-Christian posts. I personally understand the hurt and confusion about God, the bible and expressions of faith that accompanies spiritual abuse. It is true that we all need to be met with compassion and encouragement during the horrendous period of our lives called "recovery."

I do not think a Christian forum is designed to lead people into New Age beliefs or onto any path that leads us away from Christianity and our redemption in Christ. If one's journey takes them away from being a Christian then then why would they not want to seek a forum where others are on the same journey understand to be encouraged in their choice instead of staying and requiring Christians to understand and accept their choice when it is the direct antithesis of their own path? If you are not sure and want to test the truth and validity of other beliefs great, but not by accusing those who have made the choice to stay with Christ to leave so you can feel comfortable and accepted. There are some things in life where we cannot have it both ways and Faith in the redemptive death and resurrection of Christ is one of them.The choice of going to church is a whole other subject. I am finding it nearly impossible to agree to disagree without feeling attacked and rejected for being a Christian and that may be my short coming.

I see this forum as a kind of dysfunctional family at times and that this has been my attempt to dare to bring something uncomfortable into the light.

I agree with Voyager when it come to peace. I add that peace-keeping is not the same as peace-making.

Anna Marta

[Reg]

Very well said AM.

I have just a couple things to add to that.....

Am 3:3 Can two walk together, unless they are agreed?

2Co 6:14 Do not be unequally yoked together with unbelievers. For what fellowship has righteousness with lawlessness? And what communion has light with darkness?
15 And what accord has Christ with Belial? Or what part has a believer with an unbeliever?

[jimsmuse]

:confused:Me too?

[Voyager]

2Co 6:14 Do not be unequally yoked together with unbelievers. For what fellowship has righteousness with lawlessness? And what communion has light with darkness?
15 And what accord has Christ with Belial? Or what part has a believer with an unbeliever?

Those are the same verses that my former pastor used to say when people would leave the church due to the corruption and spiritual abuse. I do not find them very comforting. They are used to exclude and condemn.

Here is something you posted on another thread Reg:

Scripture should especially be used here for the purpose of comfort and healing. We are to support each other in this effort.

I'm struggling to find the comfort and healing that will come from excluding hurting people from this forum. I'm afraid it won't come to the person person(s) being excluded, but rather, to the person who has done the excluding.

If someone comes here to cause trouble, then by all means politely show them the door. But if the person has been wounded and damaged by religion, more exclusion will only deepen their wounds.

:(

[Voyager]

Actually, it's probably best that I stay out of this drama. I have no interest in getting into a tug-of-war over whether this forum should enforce the Bible on its members or not. To me that is just a big power struggle and will not help anyone heal or recover from anything. In fact, it is the very thing that will divide this forum and send hurting people scattering again. No thanks.

[JaniceB]

I was getting lost and confused

There is a big difference between listening tolerantly and having the freedom to repute ideas with the same effectiveness and thereafter being accused of intolerance and unloving Christian behavior because you refuse to accept them.

When I get confused, when my brain sizzles and snaps, I know it's time to look deeper. I only have to know what I believe and I only have to know it for today. My beliefs might change tomorrow. I don't have to have a complete set of beliefs either. Just what works for me now.

Where do I believe? In my head? Maybe, but the strongest of my beliefs are in my heart. Don't suffer so much confusion! Just ask your heart. We lose touch with our hearts under SA so it's even more important to try and find them in recovery.

[Anna Marta]

I'm struggling to find the comfort and healing that will come from excluding hurting people from this forum. I'm afraid it won't come to the person person(s) being excluded, but rather, to the person who has done the excluding.

If someone comes here to cause trouble, then by all means politely show them the door. But if the person has been wounded and damaged by religion, more exclusion will only deepen their wounds.

:(

I agree with you Voyager. I just think you and I disagree in our definition of why Ameen came to this site. I do not doubt for a minute that he has been wounded and damaged by religion. However, I experienced his participation on this forum as being typical of a highly intelligent man who is obsessively aggressive with making his point and very clever at how to communicate in such as way so as to manipulate the situation so people are pitted against each other. Hence, I had no problem with his walking out the door.

When persons make choices which put them into direct opposition with Christians and then demand for those choices to be accepted as equally valid and life promoting as living a in relationship with Christ a boundary has been crossed. By his own admission he has been asked to leave other forums because of his behavior. I am sure he will bad mouth some of us on this site and catogorize us as unloving in the same way he has others.

Funny about using various scriptures, some of the ones that were most misused and twisted are ones that are dear to me now that I understand their real meaning. The Amos 3:3 has a whole new meaning to me now and it helps me to comprehend why I was unable to survive my old church. I could not agree with their using scriptures to force me (and others) to comply with their myriad of "fence laws" and performance crap. When it comes to this situation I realize that I cannot, no I will not, walk in agreement with an atheist who is brighter, more ingenious and especially better experienced with manipulation than I am when it comes to living out the Christian.

Maybe I should have ignored him. I think I would have if it weren't for the prevailing attitude toward believers on this forum who make others uncomfortable when they speak of their faith and beliefs.

I realize that Jerry is not in agreement with me, and he is the moderator, so I think it is better if I, like Voyager, let it go now.

Anna Marta

[Anna Marta]

When I get confused, when my brain sizzles and snaps, I know it's time to look deeper. I only have to know what I believe and I only have to know it for today. My beliefs might change tomorrow. I don't have to have a complete set of beliefs either. Just what works for me now.

Where do I believe? In my head? Maybe, but the strongest of my beliefs are in my heart. Don't suffer so much confusion! Just ask your heart. We lose touch with our hearts under SA so it's even more important to try and find them in recovery.

Thanks Janice. :)

[Willow]

When persons make choices which put them into direct opposition with Christians and then demand for those choices to be accepted as equally valid and life promoting as living a in relationship with Christ a boundary has been crossed.

This is where the confusion comes in for me.... I think a path away from christianity is as valid as a path towards it. As long as it brings the person to resolution and healing. To me it's a spiritual abuse recovery forum that includes wounded people of all walks. To others, it's a christian forum for christians talking about recovery from spiritual abuse through christian paths.

When I first started here 9 years ago... 10? (can't remember exactly) it was housed at the web site called spiritualabuse.com. Then several years back it was moved to christianrecovery.com. Some oldtimers made the transition nicely... other's who have taken different paths of healing that aren't exactly christian, still viewed it as the forum for general spiritual abuse recovery. Am I right? Is this the confusion that needs clarity? I was a devout christian when I started here... now I consider myself more of a deist.

I see no way to resolve this unless we take a vote, split into 2 forums, or the admin just says it the way he wants it. It doesn't really matter to me. I have other places to heal and recover now. Years ago it would have destroyed me because this was my only safe place to share.

[Anna Marta]

I think a path away from christianity is as valid as a path towards it. As long as it brings the person to resolution and healing.

... it was housed at the web site called spiritualabuse.com. Then several years back it was moved to christianrecovery.com. Some oldtimers made the transition nicely... other's who have taken different paths of healing that aren't exactly christian, still viewed it as the forum for general spiritual abuse recovery. Am I right? Is this the confusion that needs clarity? I was a devout christian when I started here... now I consider myself more of a deist.


Moving the site to one called "christianrecovery.com" seems to illustrate the way the forum owners chose to go.

Dear Willow although other paths may seem to lead to psychological and/or emotional healing, they are not as valid as the way of Christ and having a relationship with Him through The Holy Spirit in our lives. If that were true Christ would have sacrificed His life for nothing and the Christian faith would be no more than another choice of religion or philosophy of life. It comes down to a question of salvation and how much we are loved by God.

I am sorry that participation in this site has led you from being a follower of Christ to a deist, but then again, maybe that is my point. As Christians we need to encourage each other in our faith and the essential life giving truth of Christ. The unfairness and abuse at this time in history - here in the first world - is not nearly what it is in other places such as China or Tibet or Turkey or Iran where believers lose their jobs and rights and can be tortured and killed for their faith. However the result is the same, we have a choice to make - because we have it so good and we tend to think that we don't need God for living a good life, it doesn't feel as serious to reject Him, but it is.

I love the friends I communicate with here, but I cannot deny my faith or make excuses for it in order to remain here.

Respectfully
Anna Marta

[butterfly]

Anna you have changed alot in your views since you came here.
Now it seems that you want all of the members to march behind you.
The forum has changed because you have been changing it.
I feel real bad that people can"t come here like they used to and voice there vented up emotions from there SA.
There is anger with god woundering if he is real or not. So sometimes I come to the thought that God does not excist.
Does that make me an non christian?? No it doesn"t.
If people come here and say that they hate god are you going to get upset and bash bible verses to them?
butterfly

[Willow]

I love the friends I communicate with here, but I cannot deny my faith or make excuses for it in order to remain here.

Respectfully
Anna Marta

Oh... no... forgive me if it sounded as though I wanted you to deny your faith. Never ever ever would I think in that way. Just personally... I've found great freedom in viewing God in a more expansive way... sort of like "The Great God of the Universe". It's been immensely freeing to me and does not disclude Christ and His sacrifice in any way.... but also does not exclude anyone at all and I find myself able to affirm a gay atheist with OCD as wholeheartedly as a person with faith in Christ.

I'd say my path to being a deist had little to do with participation on this site. It's more due to my participation in AA and being allowed to explore outside of the Bible in a recovery setting.

[butterfly]

Anna you have changed alot in your views since you came here.
Now it seems that you want all of the members to march behind you.
The forum has changed because you have been changing it.
I feel real bad that people can"t come here like they used to and voice there vented up emotions from there SA.
There is anger with god woundering if he is real or not. So sometimes I come to the thought that God does not excist.
Does that make me an non christian?? No it doesn"t.
If people come here and say that they hate god are you going to get upset and bash bible verses to them?
butterfly

This forum was a loving accepting place and now it has become you have to beleave like Anna. If you are so upset about peoples views that don"t mach yours then don"t read there threads!!
Are you the proof reader of all threads and see that it is your god given right to make sure nothing you feel is non christian should not be here?

I would like to remind you that there are alot of members here. This is not Anna forum you have no right to speak for us. Nor be up set that people responded to Areem they way they have a right to.
I am not saying this to be mean I see your new views as leagealistic S A.
You are SA people with other ideas than your own.
Its like we are back to church again.

[outcast]

Personally, I do not feel that anything needs to be done with this site except to let this whole thing go. It would seem to me that the offending parties are gone and that nothing good is going to come out of continuously bringing this up on separate threads. We are not going to come to a unanimous agreement on Ameen and his intents and to try to seems illogical to me anyway.

The idea of separating the site in some way just seems plain silly. Any one site will never make everyone happy all the time.

As for this site being like a dysfunctional family. Of course it is, consider where we all come from. I think to expect us to act functional after what we've all been through is a lofty goal unless we've been out of it for awhile.

I do not normally share my opinions here, but I didn't see the point in holding back this time.

[Willow]

Thanks outcast... I find myself hammering away at the problem.. and you're right... there's not going to be a situation where everyone is happy. Time to move onto "recovery issues" eh?

Personally, I do not feel that anything needs to be done with this site except to let this whole thing go. It would seem to me that the offending parties are gone and that nothing good is going to come out of continuously bringing this up on separate threads. We are not going to come to a unanimous agreement on Ameen and his intents and to try to seems illogical to me anyway.

The idea of separating the site in some way just seems plain silly. Any one site will never make everyone happy all the time.

As for this site being like a dysfunctional family. Of course it is, consider where we all come from. I think to expect us to act functional after what we've all been through is a lofty goal unless we've been out of it for awhile.

I do not normally share my opinions here, but I didn't see the point in holding back this time.

[outcast]

Thanks outcast... I find myself hammering away at the problem.. and you're right... there's not going to be a situation where everyone is happy. Time to move onto "recovery issues" eh?

Sounds good to me, dear. :)

[butterfly]

This forum was a loving accepting place and now it has become you have to beleave like Anna. If you are so upset about peoples views that don"t mach yours then don"t read there threads!!
Are you the proof reader of all threads and see that it is your god given right to make sure nothing you feel is non christian should not be here?

I would like to remind you that there are alot of members here. This is not Anna forum you have no right to speak for us. Nor be up set that people responded to Areem they way they have a right to.
I am not saying this to be mean You are SA people with views that are your own. We all have freedom to our own views.
Its like we are back to church again.

[Voyager]

I find myself hammering away at the problem.. and you're right... there's not going to be a situation where everyone is happy. Time to move onto "recovery issues" eh?

Good idea. I realize that we all believe differently, and I do not fault any of you for your beliefs. Let's move on to recovery. There is no need to revisit any of this stuff. We've been there too many times. It will just hurt people. I say we put down our religious weapons and call a truce before it even goes there again.

Peace to all.

:cool:

[Anna Marta]

Agreed.

AM

[dougjb]

Anna Marta and everyone,
Well, I think that you are a sensitive, loving, and tolerant person whom I love and appreciate very much; also, a person who does not want anyone to walk all over you or your faith. I do not believe that you need to apologize for any opinion you have offered. It is one thing to discuss some of the serious problems in the church and its negative impact on our lives with an eye towards finding a remedy to our human predicament and it is a totally different thing to lambaste the Christian faith in its totality. We are able to identify real and tangible problems in the church like manipulation and authoritarianism among other things; yet, one cannot legitimately label the essence of the Christian faith as manipulative or authoritarian because of the abuse acts of a specific number of individuals.
I may be a bit forward and blunt but it is not my intent to hurt anyone. However, I do believe that everyone must realize that there is uniqueness to this forum. There are people from all over the world with a vast variety of beliefs and experiences. For the majority of us, we have left abusive environments and are seeking or have found places conducive for healing and growth. This movement has a lot irony attached to it especially when it comes to this forum. I have enough from this forum to know that the elements that cause spiritual abuse and spiritual health are not very uniform in that we cannot put things into real neat categories. I will use myself as an example. I spent 17 years in charismatic churches that exercised some of the worst abusive practices imaginable. As a result, made a major shift in my life and became Reformed and confessional in my faith. In my life, the charismatic churches were a source of abuse and the Reformed churches became a source of life and healing. For other people the Reformed/confessional groups were a source of abuse and charismatic groups were a source of healing.

The point, as far as I see things, we are coming from an infinite number places and experiences [both geographically and spiritually] which will create a tension of sorts. For example, how does one react when someone writes a thread about a bad experience from a group that has been a source of blessing for you? This is capable of causing some personal tension and triggers among other things. I do not believe it has to be a problem but an opportunity for growth. Spiritual abuse can happen anywhere, any time, and within any group. Through a forum like this with its profound diversity of people, we have an opportunity to see how the malevolent evil is able to disguise and infiltrate the church in all its various forms. I do not believe the Christian faith or the Bible is abuse in any sense, but there are specific people who misuse the Christian faith and the Bible for wrong ends resulting in the misrepresentation of the Christian faith and ruin of many lives.

Anna Marta, you are correct that this forum is not designed to lead us away from the Christian faith. It is primarily for those in the faith who have been abused by the misuse and misrepresentation of the faith. Does this mean the non-Christians are not welcomed? Absolutely not!! I believe that anyone, Christian or not, should be welcomed and be treated with the utmost dignity and respect but there should be an understanding that how issues are understood and interpreted may be significantly different.

Granted, this forum is designed for addressing spiritual abuse within the church but abuse is not limited to just spiritual abuse. It can manifest in the political, economic, social, and cultural arenas as well. If someone shows up beat up and wounded some other realm of abuse, I do not believe that we should them the door but help in any way we are able even if it is some what outside the bounds the original intent of the forum. Anyway I could keep yakking forever on this so I am going to cut myself off.

Dougjb
Some food for thought

[Willow]

Personally... I'm not able psychologically to handle this kind of conflict. I never seem to realize it until I'm tipped over. Maybe one day I'll learn to let other voice their feelings and not think I have to do the same.

[jimsmuse]

Well said, Dougjb!
I get all tongue tied when it comes to what we are dealing with here. Because of PTSD.

I was and still am being abused by the Liberals in the church so to speak. The ones who don't believe...well in much of anything other than themselves and their self interests. I was at a Christian Ed conference this time last year at a large seminary when one the "pastors" said "I won't preach the ressurection at Easter, it's a pile of s**t."

My heart is at the polar opposite of that and therefore for me to deal with that line of thinking from one who leads a congregation of people....I am constantly slogging through the abuse so I can still shine a light. I am on staff at a church with a Liberal pastor and a Conservative congregation, I believe I am here to "stand in the gap".

Anna Marta is merely trying to "stand in the gap" and she may not appreciate me speaking for her, so my apologies AM! But come on people, is this forum truly supposed to be about recovering from Christianity or abuse in His Name?
I thought it was the latter. Do all have a voice? Of course, ALL have a voice.

Just sayin'- I think Ameen did what he came here to do.......:( :confused:

[dougjb]

hi willow,
It is not my intention to be the source of stress or tension by giving the impression that you need to enter into the fray of any kind. Everyone is at a different place in their life and everyone has their own comfort level in addressing any variety of issues. It was not my intent to push you outside your comfort level and do anything you are not comfortable with. Grace and peace to you willow.

dougjb
some food for thought

[Willow]

hi willow,
It is not my intention to be the source of stress or tension by giving the impression that you need to enter into the fray of any kind. Everyone is at a different place in their life and everyone has their own comfort level in addressing any variety of issues. It was not my intent to push you outside your comfort level and do anything you are not comfortable with. Grace and peace to you willow.

dougjb
some food for thought

You aren't the source. It's all in my court doug. I need to remember where my limits are. I forget sometimes.

[Willow]

But come on people, is this forum truly supposed to be about recovering from Christianity or abuse in His Name?
I thought it was the latter. Do all have a voice? Of course, ALL have a voice.

Just sayin'- I think Ameen did what he came here to do.......:( :confused:

Definitely to recover from abuse... not from christianity.

[JaniceB]

Dear Willow although other paths may seem to lead to psychological and/or emotional healing, they are not as valid as the way of Christ and having a relationship with Him through The Holy Spirit in our lives. If that were true Christ would have sacrificed His life for nothing and the Christian faith would be no more than another choice of religion or philosophy of life. It comes down to a question of salvation and how much we are loved by God.

I have to disagree with you, Anna Marta. I go back and forth about Christianity. I even think that Jesus may have...well, maybe I won't go there but anyone who is curious can pm me about it. It isn't the prevailing Christian belief even among the most liberal of Christians.

I for one have also been favorably influenced by New Age Christians. They teach me to see my heart and not always live in my head. They get weird now and then as we all do but I can take what works and leave the rest.

God's ways are too big for us to define, to get our heads around. Who God is and what He chooses to do and why He chooses to do it are way beyond any of us. When we fuss about it, it's as if unborn twins were arguing about who mother is. They haven't a clue where that voice or heart beat is coming from or what it's really saying.

We'll know all this when we're ready to know it all. Meanwhile we need to love ourselves and love one another and keep recoverying from SA. We need to listen to our hearts, to each other and to the voice of God within us and wherever else we may hear it. We don't have to be right because we can't be right.

[FreeinJesus]

....
I get all tongue tied when it comes to what we are dealing with here. Because of PTSD. .....

Ditto here.

I consider Ana Marta a friend. (((Ana Marta)))

I believe she has every right to express what she sees as someone being manipulative. Whether I agree or not with her conclusions, I wont say. it's not the point.

We are always going to disagree & have to respect one another when we do.