With a heavy heart

[Anna Marta]

Dear Fellow Forum Members,

It with a heavy heart that I must tell you all that I cannot fully participate on the forum. Like everyone here, I decided to become a part of this group for my own deeply personal reasons needing to recover and then wanting to serve, but I no longer think I can be of help.

I have recovered to the point where I can read my bible, sift through the teachings and understand the ways in which they were twisted by those who sought to use biblical truth for their own selfish reasons. I have been able to return to my former healthy understanding of the Christian faith. Although I am not presently seeking to become a member of an organized church, I am eagerly anticipating seeking fellowship and friendship with other believers and sharing my faith through establishing loving relationships with others in our local community upon my return to Norway.

Boundaries has been a recurring topic both on this board and in many of our lives. I can see that the boundaries I have set for myself regarding what I can and cannot accept when it comes to communication, expressions of personal moral and ethical ideals, Christ-likeness and deeply held personal beliefs do not merge well with the current understanding of boundaries here. It has been hurtful for me to witness what happens to those persons who express their basic biblical Christian beliefs. Time and again these persons (myself included more than once) have been accused of being unfair, exclusive and abusive because they expressed what they believe or their opinion.

In reference to the recent situation regarding Ameen, I want to express my opinion about what I have seen and experienced.

I do not share the same opinions as some of you. My evaluation of what occurred in those communications is very different. I think Ameen is a highly intelligent man, as evidenced by his job as university teacher. He admits his only regular board is one for persons with OCD (Obsessive Compulsive Disorder which translates into needing to pursue or do something to an unhealthy extreme) and that he sometimes "dabbles in other boards for sometime, like this one" (direct quote of his). He is gay and he describes himself as a "born again atheist." It is my personal thought that he came onto this CHRISTIAN board to dabble in some very sophisticated manipulation techniques in the effort to see whether both his sexual orientation and his atheistic standpoints as well as his rages against Christians - would be not just tolerated, but accepted and validated. Those who expressed their personally held moral, ethical or religious thoughts were not tolerated, accepted or validated. They were criticized, put down as not being compassionate, unloving and intolerant which equals being rejected. But, no one seemed to notice unless they were afraid to verbalize it.

I sincerely hope that the members of this board will struggle in healthy and effective ways to separate the wheat from the chaff as they work toward recovery and a (re)connection with God who loves us all.

A warm thank you
Anna Marta

[FreeinJesus]

((AnaMarta))

I think it is fine that you expressed your opinion. I believe that we all should have the right to voice our opinions in a sensitive & respectful way. This is fair.

I guess reality is that we all don't see eye to eye & we never will. our experiences have shaped our viewpoints & they will all be unique.

For all of us it boils down to, as the Human League would sing,
"I'm only human...."

fij

[Willow]

Dear Anna Marta,

I don't quite know how to respond when a situation gets so intense people leave. I hope you and leelees and spinynorman (and anyone else I left out) feel safe enough to fully participate again. I believe that each time this meltdown type thing happens we learn something and take it with us into the next experience.

I was a bit surprised to see the debate threads stay open, but very pleased with the overall tone of conversations with Ameen and nolongerchristian. I didn't have the same perception of Ameen that you did. only Ameen and God know the truth - everything else must be taken at face value. I believed he was what he said he was. What else can you do? Anything else is projection.

Ameen did a great job of holding a mirror up to the forum to show us where we are in our recovery. Of course... my definition of recovery may be different than yours. Inclusiveness and open-mindedness is a huge part of my journey. I thought Ameen's request of "I won't preach to you if you don't preach to me" was pretty fair. Problem is... that's what christians do... we preach. That's like telling a dog not to bark! So maybe it wasn't such a fair request...

[Hope 98]

I'm really sad that people felt the need to leave. I really didn't see things going that badly.

I am operating on the assumption that I overlooked something that stuck with someone else, probably by simply not reading all the posts. Sometimes I get stuck in my own problems and really can't take in all of what is going on here.

You have all probably heard the expression "Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater." I've recently been wondering how we do that in real life (using the expression metaphorically), especially when it seems that the baby has swallowed half the bathwater.

It's hard to avoid feeling like I've been stupid & screwed up again, actually.

[Reg]

AM, I will miss you.

I took my time before responding to this thread. To get a clear view and understanding, one has to let the dust settle first and we have had a lot of that here lately.

I had to read what you said a couple of times. I sense you have evaluated the situation correctly. I was also someone that Ameen was less than cordial with. He interpreted my motives incorrectly. Not that I need validation but, anyone that has known me here from the beginning knows that I would not condemn or preach to anyone here. I endeavour to bring something of value in an effort to support and help.

The part where you said, "It is my personal thought that he came onto this CHRISTIAN board to dabble in some very sophisticated manipulation techniques in the effort to see whether both his sexual orientation and his atheistic standpoints as well as his rages against Christians - would be not just tolerated, but accepted and validated."

This strikes a note of truth with me. In addressing me, Ameen criticized me saying what I posted make him very uncomfortable. I have reread what I posted and I cannot see anything he should feel uncomfortable with unless, like you said, I did not validate his position. How could I as a Christian? Just being who I am will make some people uncomfortable naturally. The very tenents of Christianity I espouse will do that to those who are atheists. It's a matter of conscience.

I am also sensitive when someone trys to put a guilt trip on me. I believe Ameen attempted to do this. In his reply to me he correctly acknowledged my motives, "I believe you are being sincere and are trying to be helpful in what you posted, and I appreciate that. In addition, I said from the beginning that I would accept and respect everyone here, and I absolutely extend that to you.

He then goes on to say, "However, when such things are directed at me specifically, it rubs me the wrong way............I want to discuss what you wrote because such a response can be very, very hurtful to a spiritually abused person who no longer believes in God and the Bible."

What were those things directed at him specifially that rubbed him the wrong way? Reading again what I posted to him was in response to his condemning those who have done terrible things in the name of religion.

My reply attempted to point out that people claiming to be Christian did those things. A Christian in the Biblical sense would not. He did what most who are not Christians such as Atheists do, lump all who claim to be Christian in the same barrel. I gives them a validation of their beliefs and lifestyle. However, nothing could be farther from the truth. Some use the label Christian to hide behind it's cloak to do whatever they want. They are the wolves in sheep's clothing and tar all with their dastardly deeds. That is what our abusers have done in their narcissitic, sociopathic orgy of abuse. All Christians are judged by their actions by unbelievers as a result.

Christians that truly follow Jesus Christ as His disciples are the Invisible Church who follow the principles Jesus taught and lived. Basically, To love God and their fellow man. I doesn't seem Ameen got that. The quote I used from The Invisible Church thread clearly said that. If he wanted to understand that aspect he would have followed the link to that thread. But, by his response he chose to criticize me.

Here is where I acknowledged what he observed and was partly a reason why he became an atheist. I simply pointed out it was an invalid reason by only looking at what the visible church has done throughout history. A true understanding of the Invisible Church would clear that up as I wrote here......

I agree that a lot that has occured in the name of Christianity and the religions of the world is unChristian. However the invisible/spirit led church has not taken part in any of it. It follows the principles of Christianity and has been largely ignored by much of the Institutional Church......
http://www.christianrecovery.com/vb/...visible+church
.
And yes, it was directed at him. Who else where we talking to? How could it not be? The scripture I used was appropriate to the discussion of the invisible component of the Church. I can see by this how difficult it is for those who are atheists to look beyond the physical to the spiritual component. Their vision and understanding is very limited. Yet that is the only way someone can correctly access what has happened in the name of Christianity. Religion is another topic altogether.

So AM, take a bit of a breather if you need to and come back when you're ready. I've done that in the past when the going got hot and heavy. It was refreshing. You bring valuable help and support here. I always appreciate what you say. As I said initially, "I will miss you."

PLEASE RECONSIDER!

[Grey]

I haven't been here, & don't know what happened, but I know I will miss you, Anna Marta. Your responses to my problems have always helped me feel understood and cared about. I'm sorry I haven't been in a position to give much back to anyone here.
I am very glad that you have reached a good place spiritually, and wish you well. ((hugs))

[JaniceB]

AM, I will miss you.
So AM, take a bit of a breather if you need to and come back when you're ready. I've done that in the past when the going got hot and heavy. It was refreshing. You bring valuable help and support here. I always appreciate what you say. As I said initially, "I will miss you."

PLEASE RECONSIDER!

I second that! You may need a little recouperation but I think you're strong enough not to let other people's issues get under your skin.

[Voyager]

AM,

I think there is room for both Christians and non-Christians here. We have all been abused, and no one is perfect. I think if we allow each other to have the room to be ourselves we can all get along. Ameen was a little over-the-top, but he was abused just like the rest of us were. He seemed pretty harmless to me, but his posts were definitely not the norm.

Sometimes we need to take some time away from here, because this forum can get under your skin - especially when religious wars get started. But as long as we allow each other the liberty to be whoever we want to be, we don't need to argue or fight over doctrinal disagreements. We can just help each other heal.

I don't think this forum needs to be affiliated with a specific denomination for people to be able to benefit from it. Actually it's probably best for everyone that there are no religious requirements here. If the Bible was enforced here, many of us would not be here. On the other hand, if the Bible was not allowed to be discussed here, many other people would leave also. So here we are - a mix of beat-up, wounded spiritual abuse victims trying to heal without destroying each other. It would be great if we could just support one another without feeling the need to have everyone agree with us.

Actually, my time away from here was very healing - so if that's what you need then go for it. It may be a week, it may be a month, it may be a year - but the cool thing is that you will always be accepted here. I came back after more than a year away and have been warmly welcomed back.

Peace. :cool:

[Willow]

This strikes a note of truth with me. In addressing me, Ameen criticized me saying what I posted make him very uncomfortable. I have reread what I posted and I cannot see anything he should feel uncomfortable with unless, like you said, I did not validate his position. How could I as a Christian? Just being who I am will make some people uncomfortable naturally. The very tenents of Christianity I espouse will do that to those who are atheists. It's a matter of conscience.

And this is the jist of the whole matter. Validation is a very important human need. Why would Ameen need to come to christians to be accepted "just as he is"? Just as a bank owner would not be able to validate a thief's actions... christians would not be able to validate an atheist's non-belief.

I'm not sure why... but in defiance of logic, the act of validation seems much more important than my disagreement about the existence of God.

Frankly... I think we did darn good this time in the face of conflict. KUDOS everyone!!!

[FreeinJesus]

Sometimes not posting or just staying away from this forum is good for me.

To my detriment I get too wrapped up in the *cyber world* & my life is passing me by.:o However, this forum has helped me greatly.

(((Ana Marta))) you will be missed by me & many others....& I hope you will reconsider. It would be awfully boring if we all saw issues the exact same way! heck we'd be the damn *Borg* if we did. :D

I needed support & validation & many people who were here on this forum, generously gave that to me. ((Ana Marta)) ((Hornblower)) ((Mary)) & many others who helped me. I am thankful to ALL the folks who were here to support me when I needed it so desperately.

I find that I don't want to get into any type of discussion that is overly controversial, there was enough controversy in the cult. The thought of even trying to debate any type of bible doctrine is repugnant to me...I know that sounds terrible, but I was spoonfed *bible doctrine* in the cult to last 100 lifetimes.:( So, I'm trying to say I'm not against *christianity*...I just cannot handle major bible stuff at this point in my life. I don't believe I've thrown God out, but I have tossed religion to the side & I believe God is OK with that.

This is how i see it, Ameen sees it his way & Ana Marta sees it her way & I see it my way & Reg sees it his way. & Voyager sees it his way.:o.& on & on (insert infinity symbol here).

[FreeinJesus]

...Frankly... I think we did darn good this time in the face of conflict. KUDOS everyone!!!

(((Willow))) I do believe that most on this forum are compassionate & passionate.:D

I think every one of us tries to be understanding & show empathy.
(((((((((We all need a group hug)))))))))):D

[Elisabeth]

I caught onto something about myself through all of this.

I didn't post very much, but I found myself feeling very negatively about some of the reaction Ameen was getting. I am very definitely Christian, not only going to church, but also involved with a ministry in my church, but I found myself actually more on Ameen's side than the other. And I wondered "Why would I want to side with the atheist instead of the Christians?"

And when Willow said that about validation it hit me - it was because I saw Ameen as wanting validation, but not of his atheism and homosexuality, but rather validation of his humanity by Christians, since Christians had treated him so badly in the past. It seemed to me that he put the atheism and homosexuality on the table just to say, "This is what I am, am I still worth as much as anybody else, in spite of this?" And no, being preached to was not what he wanted.

And what did I see of myself in this? It is because I was exactly the same way! Not a gay atheist, but needing validation of being human by the ones I had equated with the one who hurt me. A preacher had treated me as less than human. So for a long time, I would have any relationships I had with preachers as superficial. But as I started trusting preachers again, I would basically become a pain in the ass! Bugging them, wanting to talk. And being less than holy. Using swear words. Hanging my sins in front of them. And did I want them to validate my cussing and sin? No! But I didn't want to be preached to either, told to clean up my act, etc. etc. I just wanted to be validated as being a person, a person with feelings, who has been hurt and who is not perfect. And the preachers who ended up getting through to me were the ones who would pay attention to me and not try to get me to clean up my act. :D

[outcast]

In response to the OP, I must say that with all due respect I disagree on the point that Ameen was trying to be manipulative in his posts. Upon further contact with him, I agree wholeheartedly with Willow that he was very honest about who he was from the beginning. I just don't think all the people here were quite ready to receive him.

Since corresponding with him via e-mail, I find him to be friendly and respectful of my christian boundaries, even though he may be considered too blunt about his own non-christian ones. I really think he just wanted to be validated by those who had hurt him previously as Willow pointed out.

I too am sorry that AM feels the need to post an announcement of her leaving. But, logically speaking, I must ask why she feels the need to do so. There have been many times in the past 3 years when I didn't post either because I had nothing to contribute or because I felt the tension too overwhelming and needed to retreat. Regardless, I didn't feel the need to announce my departure. Frankly, I don't feel that is a healthy thing to do. If she wants to be here, fine. If not, so be it. If each of us chose to start a thread each time we decided to take some time off, I think that would be all that occupied the first page of this forum, don't you?

I think we would be better off to focus on things that help us to heal instead. I don't mean to be rude or insensitive here, but I think our focus has shifted to the wrong thing.

[Voyager]

I think we would be better off to focus on things that help us to heal instead. I don't mean to be rude or insensitive here, but I think our focus has shifted to the wrong thing.

For me, reconciliation with humans brings about healing. My relationship with God hasn't changed. It was humans using religion as a weapon to control and manipulate me that damaged my trust in humans... not in God. So for me, trying to reconcile and communicate in a civil way with people like you and Anna Marta and everyone else here is one of my goals. We all have our own personal religious beliefs, and Anna Marta has as much right to hers as Ameen does. I'm not defending anyone, just saying it's okay to be tolerant of others who don't believe just like we do. We don't have to agree with them to tolerate them.

I think I'll just back out of this. I should not be in the middle of a religious debate. Sorry...

:)

[Willow]

So for me, trying to reconcile and communicate in a civil way with people like you and Anna Marta and everyone else here is one of my goals.

So, maybe Voyager has a need for validation too. I know that I sure do. Something inside of me wants to be accepted "just as I am without one plea." I even have considered going back to the last church I was at (a source of abuse) to get some sort of resolution/reconciliation. Problem with that is... I'm not sure I could take further abuse and there is a chance it would happen. At the very least, I suspect I would be considered a repentent soul and treated as a discipleship project rather than a human in need of validation. There would also probably be no offering of apologies on their side. I just feel it in my bones. So... I haven't done that and don't suppose I ever will....

[Jerry]

I sincerely hope that the members of this board will struggle in healthy and effective ways to separate the wheat from the chaff as they work toward recovery and a (re)connection with God who loves us all.

A warm thank you
Anna Marta

Dear Anna Marta,,,
It was a difficult decision for me to allow Ameen on the board.My beliefs are 180 degrees opposed to his.But he was honest about who he was.As Christians we do not have the luxury of dismissing another human being just because of what we believe.I can't think of one instance where Christ,Paul,Timothy,Peter,or any of our patriarchs dismissed another because they were different or deceived.Rather they treated them with love and respect.Ameen has now left the board.What are the results ?????? By allowing Ameen we have planted a seed of Christian love and respect.We have done our job,,,,,,and the Holy Spirit has done His job.Will that seed take root and someday grow ????? I don't know,,,,God is the only guy with a "Watering Can"

Love Jerry

[Willow]

Dear Anna Marta,,,
It was a difficult decision for me to allow Ameen on the board.My beliefs are 180 degrees opposed to his.But he was honest about who he was.As Christians we do not have the luxury of dismissing another human being just because of what we believe.I can't think of one instance where Christ,Paul,Timothy,Peter,or any of our patriarchs dismissed another because they were different or deceived.Rather they treated them with love and respect.Ameen has now left the board.What are the results ?????? By allowing Ameen we have planted a seed of Christian love and respect.We have done our job,,,,,,and the Holy Spirit has done His job.Will that seed take root and someday grow ????? I don't know,,,,God is the only guy with a "Watering Can"

Love Jerry

Dear Jerry, Thank you for letting Ameen on the board. In his short time here, he helped me significantly with my OCD problem. I just wish I'd asked him for the link to his OCD forum. Such is life...

[outcast]

Dear Jerry, Thank you for letting Ameen on the board. In his short time here, he helped me significantly with my OCD problem. I just wish I'd asked him for the link to his OCD forum. Such is life...

He gave me the name of the forum. It is Brainphysics. If you google it, the link is easy to find. Hope this helps. :)

[beginagainrose]

:)Oh, Anna Marta... what a joy to find that you are still here...fighting the good fight... this post is so well said... even you and I have been in "iron sharpens iron" mode but were able to set aside debate to hug each other from across the net and walk in the standard of Love our King calls us to... and as well, it saddens me to see so little has changed here. Still, this forum has been such a signficant tool in our personal recovery. Your eloquent words testify to the Grace, Mercy and Power of our Lord in your life. I have been away from here for 15 months and I am sure to the delight of all; save you. You are SO the real deal my friend... I have thought of you so many times and it is a such a delight to find you so "recovered"! I will PM with an update to you. For all I experienced here, it confirmed to me how the Lord has worked in my life to seek forgiveness of others and to offer it in spite of painful words and actions... and that is the greatest miracle... His Grace is, truly, still amazing. Your vision shared with me was a comfort more times than I can tell you ... you are so gifted and such a gift to The Body of Jesus Christ. Bless you, dear one (still my term of endearment to commnicate how precious people are!)... I am glad I returned if for no other reason than to touch base with you.:)

[Willow]

He gave me the name of the forum. It is Brainphysics. If you google it, the link is easy to find. Hope this helps. :)

Thanks outcast!