leaving the "church" I was in....and it's SO HARD

[Lvanett]

OK….so I’m ready to finally take the step and leave the “church” I mentioned a few months ago….there’s a few complications, so I’m asking for help in leaving there, since simply not showing up anymore is not really an option.

Here’s the scenario: the “church” now has services at my apartment on Saturdays, in the afternoons, times ranging from 1pm to 4pm. I am (for now) in charge of preparing the worship music for the service. If for some reason I can’t be there, I have to give a good reason why, and give details, since they always ask for them. Problem is, one of the women who’s part of this “church” lives near me and is a nosy busybody. I’d thought of telling them I had to go out of town for a while, but that wouldn’t work since “S” (the name I’ll give her) can see me coming and going and DOES watch, and tell her friend “J”.

“J” gets all tithes the church receives, including mine. She’s supposed to put it towards the church and ministry but I’m not sure how much of it actually goes into it. She told me a while back that she depends on my tithe because she uses part of it to pay for her food and living expenses. Furthermore, if J takes me to the grocery store 2 miles away, she charges me $10 for gas; and if we go to the Walmart 15 minutes away she charges an additional $20. All this, combined with her rude mouthy attitude have bothered me, to the point I’m now trying to figure out how I can leave this church once and for all.

I’m trying to work up the courage to tell them I’m leaving, but because S is nosy and a gossip, I know I will be drilled with questions and ripped apart emotionally and verbally. J & S are convinced I belong with them, and I feel the total opposite. I suppose I’ll have to tell them that, then face the long lecture and barrage by J afterward….I dread the whole ordeal. I’m not even sure I’ll be able to convince them, because they’re so cunning and clever that they’ll find some way, somehow, to get me to stay – y’know, the nice warm fuzzies and feel-good statements, as well as the wonderful false promise to do or say certain things for you or on your behalf, while never intending to follow through. I just love those.

[JaniceB]

Bless your heart! You give even to the point of opening your home and they use you and use you and abuse you.

When I was taking assertiveness training they told me one way to maintain your rightful position is to keep repeating yourself. For instance, "I'm leaving this church." Then, "I need to leave this church." And, "You have to find another place to meet by ______." In your case you might need to repeat something about "It's none of your business why I'm leaving this church." Maybe something like, "I'm leaving for personal reasons."

It's not easy especially when you've been so kind and when at least one of them is a neighbor. Keep in mind that it will be worth it. I'm so glad I got out!

[Spiny Norman]

Hi Lynda,

Tough situation. First suggestion: there is wisdom in the advice of many counsellors. Get some input from a few people before you act. Weigh it up, then take the best course of action, which might be an amalgam of various pieces of advice.

I'll throw in my 2c worth. First of all, my recommendation, is to tell the truth, because its way too exhausting to tell lies and then have to try and remember what those lies were (i.e. its a hassle to try to maintain them!). Its much easier just to remember the truth and go with that.

Having said that, be selective about what truths you share. When my wife and I left our church, we told as few people as possible the true depth of our reasons for departing. We have a "cut down" (santitised) version of our reasons, and just shared that.

It sounds very tough to me because they are meeting at your place. I am not sure how to handle that part of it, but perhaps someone else here can share some wisdom.

But if it were me, blunt person that I am, I would just tell them straight: "I'm sorry to have to do this at short notice, but I no longer wish to have meetings at my place ... you need to find a new location". If they ask why, then again, I would just be short and sweet: "I won't be attending any longer" ... and if they want to know why: "I'm sorry, I don't feel comfortable sharing my reasons, they're too personal".

If they had any further questions, I would poiltely tell them that I didn't intend to talk about it any further.

That would suit my blunt and matter-of-fact personality, but won't necessarily suit yours. So, again, get some ideas/suggestions from a variety of people, then work out your own response that fits with who you are and how you see things.

I'm not an expert on these things, so please, take everything I have just said with a grain of salt!

[David]

Hi Lynda,

Do you have anyone there who can stand with you for support through this? Seems like two onto one is not really fair .....

[Lvanett]

Hi everyone :)

Since the church is only made up of 4 people, and 2 of them (S and a friend named P) are blabbermouths, and J is the bully/con artist/friend disguised as a "counselor" and also bible teacher, the one they report to and look to since she's the leader, I don't have anyone else I can discuss this with. It's just me, the Lord, and yall here. That's why I wrote for the title it's so hard....

I just don't think they'll simply let me off the hook by my saying I'm leaving for personal reasons. J is simply too moody and rude to let me off that easily. S is too pushy and nagging to leave me alone. I know I will be, as I heard someone say once, "reamed, steamed & dry cleaned; blued, screwed & tattooed"....deluged with questions....harassed and beaten down verbally with guilt trips and begging and pleading for me to stay. I fully expect they'll call me relentlessly, visit, and do everything they can to get me to stay or come back. I only wish I could tell them everything. I just don't have the courage to tell them, and even if I did I'd get bashed.

The trust between me and them has been broken, and I would much rather be silent.
The next few weeks will probably be nothing short of horrific....

[outcast]

OMG!! I don't want to sound insensitive to your plight my dear, but as an outsider who has also been in a nasty church situation I will say this as bluntly as I can: RUN!!

These people are absolutely abominable in the way that they are treating you. Nothing about this is right or christlike. This is a terrible church to associate with and you simply need to leave as fast as you can and cut all ties.

Now that I've said my peace, I will say that I know this is hard to the point of being paralyzing and fearful. But, remember that these people only have as much control over you as you allow them. I hate that they are affiliated with your apartment and I know that must be so hard, but if you don't put some firm distance between you and them it sounds as though it will only continue to get worse.

I remember when I left (I was a worship leader as well), it was the hardest thing I've ever had to do. However, over 3 years later I realize now that they were not nearly as powerful as I had previously thought.

I pray God give you the strength and grace that you need to get through this. He will.

[outcast]

Hi everyone :)

Since the church is only made up of 4 people, and 2 of them (S and a friend named P) are blabbermouths, and J is the bully/con artist/friend disguised as a "counselor" and also bible teacher, the one they report to and look to since she's the leader, I don't have anyone else I can discuss this with. It's just me, the Lord, and yall here. That's why I wrote for the title it's so hard....

I just don't think they'll simply let me off the hook by my saying I'm leaving for personal reasons. J is simply too moody and rude to let me off that easily. S is too pushy and nagging to leave me alone. I know I will be, as I heard someone say once, "reamed, steamed & dry cleaned; blued, screwed & tattooed"....deluged with questions....harassed and beaten down verbally with guilt trips and begging and pleading for me to stay. I fully expect they'll call me relentlessly, visit, and do everything they can to get me to stay or come back. I only wish I could tell them everything. I just don't have the courage to tell them, and even if I did I'd get bashed.

The trust between me and them has been broken, and I would much rather be silent.
The next few weeks will probably be nothing short of horrific....


When I left, we changed our phone numbers and refused to answer the door unless we knew it was not them.

They finally went away for good. :)

We also let them know that if they continued to harass us, we would call the police.

It worked and I highly suggest it to you as well.

These people have absolutely no right to do this to you. It makes me angry to hear of the way they are infringing on your boundaries and rights as a person. :mad: It makes me want to cuss!!

I will be praying for you my dear. You CAN do this!! You are strong and God will protect you. They are not bigger than him. Much love to you, my dear.

[Jerry]

Dear Lvanett,,,

I think your at a point where ya just have to do it.....The way I figure there must be 50 ways to leave the church.Slip out the back Jack.Make a new plan Stan.Don't need to be coy Roy.Just listen to me.Get on the bus Gus,don't need to discuss much.Just drop off the key Lee and get yourself free ;)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=91euERWH2M4

Yes,,,a little humor,but I feel a serious message :o


Love Jerry

[Voyager]

There is only one way to leave a dysfunctional, abusive situation: RUN!

Lock your door, turn off your phone, and don't reply to emails. Take the cab to WalMart instead of asking Gladys Kravitz for a ride (or whatever her name is). If you have any other friends or family outside the group, get in touch with them for support.

It sounds like this group is very controlling, and they may not want to give up their manipulative grip on your soul. If they start harassing you after you quit the group, threaten to request an order of protection against them.

We all had to leave our former abusive churches. It's not easy.

P.S. - Jerry gave you some pretty good advice on that YouTube video: "Get off the bus Gus... you don't need to discuss much. Just drop off the key Lee, and get yourself free." If you discuss your reasons for leaving with them, you will end up in an endless argument that you cannot win. They will then throw all of their most powerful manipulative tactics at you to get you to stay. If you're weak, they may suck you in again. It's like quitting a powerful addictive drug. The only way to quit is to get away from it.

:cool:

[FreeinJesus]

There is only one way to leave a dysfunctional, abusive situation: RUN!

Lock your door, turn off your phone, and don't reply to emails. Take the cab to WalMart instead of asking Gladys Kravitz for a ride (or whatever her name is). If you have any other friends or family outside the group, get in touch with them for support.

It sounds like this group is very controlling,....
We all had to leave our former abusive churches. It's not easy.

...If you discuss your reasons for leaving with them, you will end up in an endless argument that you cannot win. They will then throw all of their most powerful manipulative tactics at you to get you to stay. If you're weak, they may suck you in again. ....
:cool:

What Voyager is saying is TRUE. You cannot give them the time of day.
I hope you get away from those people!
Be strong! You don't owe those people a damn thing!

When we left, the *pastor* was going to come over with an inner core person...no doubt to use all their ammo at us & convince us that leaving would be "sinful". But I told them not to bother coming over!! OOOOOO xpastor was pissed at me, yelled at me on the phone & finally hung up on me. But I know I might not have been able to handle thier "rebuking session".....so I figured "I don't owe them a damn thing!! I dont' have to listen to them "rebuke" me" that was pretty much the end....been walking in freedom ever since...though it hasn't been easy, it's been worth it!:)
All the best to you!

[Ameen]

Very, very good advice here.

A religious cult does not have to be as large as mine (The Worldwide Church of God) was or in the papers as much as Scientology is or the Moonies once were. It can also be just a handful of people.

May I also suggest contacting one of the national agencies that deals with religious cults? They can be very helpful in telling you where else to turn and helping you find the right words and plan of actrion. It has been a long time since I used such organizations for help--in the days before a public Internet, actually--so I am not sure what is around today.

The organization I am most indebted to is the Cult Clinic run by the Jewish Board of Family and Childrens Services. (You don't have to be Jewish to use their services.)

I have just googled it, and here is what I found:

http://www.jfedcnj.org/IR/Listing.aspx?id=41034

120 West 57th Street
New York, NY10019

Phone: 212-632-4640
Contact: Arnold Markowitz, Director


The facility is staffed by trained mental health professionals who offer services designed to help families affected by the cult experience. These include a 24-hour hotline providing information and crisis intervention. Initial consultation for families and individuals who are in or have left a cult, long- and short-term counseling, and community education and consultation.

Also...

http://www.icsahome.com/infoserv_profile/jbfcs_ny.asp

Cult Clinic & Hot Line

Jewish Board of Family and Children's Services
120 W. 57th Street
New York, NY 10019
Tel: (212) 632-4640
Director: Arnold Markowitz, CSW

http://www.cultclinic.org/about.html

"The Cult Hotline & Clinic was founded in 1980 to serve families and friends of cult members, former cult members, and to educate community groups most at risk of interaction with cults. We are a nonprofit, non-sectarian counseling and education organization working with people of all religious, ethnic, and racial backgrounds.

The Cult Hotline & Clinic is a program of the Jewish Board of Family and Children's Services, one of the nation's largest and most respected nonprofit mental health and social service agencies. JBFCS serves over 65,000 New Yorkers annually from all religious, ethnic, and economic backgrounds through a comprehensive range of 185 community-based programs, residential facilities, and day-treatment centers."

-----------

There are many good organizations out there, and many are staffed by people who believe in and love God. There are Christian ones, multi-faith ones... Even completely secular ones.

Perhaps other users on this board can post links and phone numbers to anti-cult agencies they like.

In reason,

Ameen

[Lvanett]

Thanx, once again, for all the advice and support! Whenever I need help regarding spiritual abuse, you guys & gals always come thru. :) :cool:

Since I know trying to talk to these people will lead nowhere, my only choice is to either go out somewhere this Saturday (and the ones after it), or try and ignore their door knocking and other things. I'm not about to try to discuss this with them, because they're unreasonable....and the sad part IMO is that the leader tells people they have chemical imbalances and need meds and counseling, while she too shows signs of being, at the very least, bipolar (she's moody, has mania episodes where she stays up all night, and has an explosive temper) since she displays some of the symptoms I had before I got the right meds. To me, if you're going to be a leader or counselor, you should be sure you don't have a "chemical imbalance" yourself,and if you can't afford to get treatment, then maybe you should step down from your position.

[Lvanett]

I forgot to add one other key principle that bothers me, and that I'm praying about: they're strong believers that you must pay and support your teachers. I looked up the scriptures regarding this and found Matthew 10:10 and 1 Timothy 5:17. Now I'm feeling convicted and need to hear from HIM.

[Spiny Norman]

Lynda, I used to tithe ... religiously ... but I don't any longer. Do a Google search for "truth about tithing" and follow some of the links (warning: some may be triggering!) ...

I do understand why you would feel a level of responsibility, however if God is who He says He is, won't He care for these people after you leave (assuming that they are in His will)? If they aren't in His will, then aren't they just leeching finances from you and your family?

Either way, I see no justification for making your decision(s) about leaving on the basis of tithing. You may still choose to tithe, however you are not bound by Scripture to tithe to them ... you can place your tithe wherever you like!

Remember always: Christ died for our freedom, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin and under the bondage that the law (and religion) brings.

[outcast]

What Voyager is saying is TRUE. You cannot give them the time of day.
I hope you get away from those people!
Be strong! You don't owe those people a damn thing!

When we left, the *pastor* was going to come over with an inner core person...no doubt to use all their ammo at us & convince us that leaving would be "sinful". But I told them not to bother coming over!! OOOOOO xpastor was pissed at me, yelled at me on the phone & finally hung up on me. But I know I might not have been able to handle thier "rebuking session".....so I figured "I don't owe them a damn thing!! I dont' have to listen to them "rebuke" me" that was pretty much the end....been walking in freedom ever since...though it hasn't been easy, it's been worth it!:)
All the best to you!


Just had to say... preach it!! And I think your expletive is totally appropriate here. :p

I agree with the later posters that you really do not owe them a DAMN thing. They just want you to think you do.

I read your plan and it sounds like you are thinking clearly. Good luck to you and may God strengthen your resolve.

[Lvanett]

Excellent advice!

[Voyager]

I forgot to add one other key principle that bothers me, and that I'm praying about: they're strong believers that you must pay and support your teachers. I looked up the scriptures regarding this and found Matthew 10:10 and 1 Timothy 5:17. Now I'm feeling convicted and need to hear from HIM.

Does God need our money? Even if he did, I doubt very seriously that he would want us to channel it through spiritual abusers. You'd be better off buying a homeless person a bag of groceries or donating to your local Salvation Army. If things are tight, don't sweat it.

You'll find that most of what we were taught about tithing was manipulative lies designed to get at our wallets. God had nothing to do with it. It takes time for the brainwashing to wear off. In time you will wonder how you ever believed a word any of them said.

:cool:

[Anna Marta]

Does God need our money? Even if he did, I doubt very seriously that he would want us to channel it through spiritual abusers. You'd be better off buying a homeless person a bag of groceries or donating to your local Salvation Army. If things are tight, don't sweat it.
:cool:

I completely agree! Great thoughts and advice. FLEECING sheep has become an art form!
Hugs,
AM

[FreeinJesus]

The reason I'm feeling convicted is because I know for a fact that the lady who gets the money IS poor. I've been to her home, and it's smaller than my apartment (a 1 bedroom). Believe me, she ain't livin' in the lap of luxury. Far from it. .....
Hopefully I've clarified this and made some sense.

Yep, you have clarified it.

That lady needs to get a REAL job like the rest of us.

[FreeinJesus]

:o:o sometimes a little @#!$%%^ helps....:D:D

Just had to say... preach it!! And I think your expletive is totally appropriate here. :p

I agree with the later posters that you really do not owe them a DAMN thing. They just want you to think you do.

I read your plan and it sounds like you are thinking clearly. Good luck to you and may God strengthen your resolve.

[Lvanett]

Does God need our money?

Well upon reading those scriptures, and studying them, that's not the question. What those verses are saying is that we need to support those who serve us. It's true that there are some who abuse this scripture and teaching, and live wealthy, pampered lives. But in the case of J, that just isn't so....

NOW....considering what I just said....let me throw this out. J had a fancy home, not as in a mansion, but as in one of those slightly-better-than average homes that sell for $300K or $400K. I believe she said it was along a small lake or something and she really did live a good life with top-of-the-line everything. THEN several years ago she said she felt the Lord wanted her to get rid of her home - I forgot why - and not sell it, but just leave it and give it up. So she did, and she gave up (or gave away, I forget) most of her possessions, leaving her with just the bare necessities. (I think she acquired the pets she now owns later.) At some point she moved into the home of the friend (and the friend's wife and kids) she now lives with. I think she may owe money or taxes on her previous home, but I'm not certain of that.

Here's what irks me: when the person I'm supporting ceases to serve me, depends on me heavily, and also uses some of the funds to pay for cigarettes, that's when I get upset. I haven't had a counseling session with her in over 2 weeks, and the money I tithe supposedly pays for that. Lately however, she's said she needs the money for food for herself and her cats.

The reason I'm feeling convicted is because I know for a fact that the lady who gets the money IS poor. I've been to her home, and it's smaller than my apartment (a 1 bedroom). Believe me, she ain't livin' in the lap of luxury. Far from it. Her things (TV, bedding, clothes, etc.) come from the thrift store and she gets some of her necessities (allergy meds, soap, etc) rom the dollar store as well as Save A Lot or Walmart. Her SUV (which is 10 years old and in bad shape) is a gas guzzler and gets only 2 or 3 miles per gallon, due to a problem with the engine. She has a 2-room apartment rented from a family and lives in their cellar and gets only $35 a month in food stamps, and is already 3 months behind on the rent. On the down side, she also has 9 cats and 1 dog and IMO spends probably a little too much money on food for them...she feeds each of them 2 tunafish-sized cans a day. (I'm a pet lover, and can understand her wanting to pamper them but feel in light of her circumstances she should perhaps cut back.) But I have times where I feel she shouldn't rely on my tithe so much, because I'm going to have periods of time where I can't give anything....and then times where I feel guilty to not tithe. She's said in the past she understands if I can't give the full 10%, but since she has a way of saying one thing one day and then saying something completely different the next, I don't know if she'd accept my being unable to tithe at all for at least another month or 2. She's told me how she feels God put me in her life to care for her....and I'm feeling guilty because I simply do not have the 10% to give now or later.

Hopefully I've clarified this and made some sense. I'm just not sure what to do except pray.

[Lvanett]

Yep, you have clarified it.

That lady needs to get a REAL job like the rest of us.

well she claims she can't work because she has Fibromyalgia, cancer (in remission), and some other bone diseases.

The more I read all of this, the more I see (sadly) that she looks and acts like a con artist.

[Ameen]

Dear Lvanett,

Isn't the quote "God helps those who help themselves" and not "God helps those who help themselves to your money"? :)

It's a good thing to help someone out if you wish to, and indeed Christians feel that is what they are called to do. I know that I often help others because that is how I would want to be treated if I were in their shoes.

However, I think it's also important to differentiate between a truly needy person whom one might consider helping and a manipulative leech. You have every right to set limits or stop handouts all together. One of the secretaries in my old job is a serious Christian, and one of her favorite quotes is: "God didn't intend for us to be doormats."

Let me put it this way. My father, a Christian in his 70s, has a friend from his high school days who does not have a lot of money. This guy spends whatever he gets as soon as he gets it. His brother used to give him money, and he would then go to an expensive restaurant for a gourmet meal instead of to the grocery store so he could stock up. Then he'd have nothing the next day. Eventually, his brother stopped giving him money.

There is a difference between being Christian and enabling someone.

When this fellow really was in need--He needed heart surgery--my father helped him out. But my father also drew the line: When this friend calls every month or so seeking a handout, my father says no. He says it kindly and politely and supportively... But he still says it. He knows his friend will go through the money like water and then be in need again.

Perhaps I sound cruel and inhuman in suggesting that you not help this woman the way you have been. But, unless I am misreading your post, that is what your gut is telling you, yet you have been conditioned to feel guilty if you listen to your gut. A clever person knows how to read others and get what they want from them by any means necessary. Does that sound like this woman?

In other words, does this woman know how hard you are trying to be a good Christian, and is she using that to her advantage?

All the best,

Ameen

[FreeinJesus]

.... I haven't had a counseling session with her in over 2 weeks, and the money I tithe supposedly pays for that.

.....She's told me how she feels God put me in her life to care for her....and I'm feeling guilty because I simply do not have the 10% to give now or later.

Hopefully I've clarified this and made some sense. I'm just not sure what to do except pray.

((Lvanett))

I am curious if this person is a licensed counselor?
Personally, I believe you are being majorly manipulated......:( my .02

[FreeinJesus]

Dear Lvanett,


.... A clever person knows how to read others and get what they want from them by any means necessary. Does that sound like this woman?



((Ameen)) So true!

[Lvanett]

A clever person knows how to read others and get what they want from them by any means necessary. Does that sound like this woman?

Unfortunately, yes.


In other words, does this woman know how hard you are trying to be a good Christian, and is she using that to her advantage?

I'm not sure if that's the case or not. I'm seeking the Lord and asking Him to show me if that is the case.

[Lvanett]

((Lvanett))

I am curious if this person is a licensed counselor?

No she isn't. She only took a semester or 2 of classes in psychology (I think) in college. She IS educated but I'm not sure what her major, and/or degree(s) is/are in.

Knowing all of this, I don't agree with many of the things she's said to me or labelled me as.

[Voyager]

I haven't had a counseling session with her in over 2 weeks, and the money I tithe supposedly pays for that. Lately however, she's said she needs the money for food for herself and her cats.

Now's your chance to bail. You have been out from under the spell of her weekly intoxicating, brainwashing counseling sessions for a few weeks - and you are starting to think for yourself for a change. You are waking up and smelling the coffee, and many of us have been right where you are. The windows of opportunity to leave these places is rare, because even though many members know something is wrong, the influence of the group/leader is more powerful than their own will. That's why we realize it is imperative for you to get away from that place now that her controlling grip on your soul has been loosened and you are getting back a little of your own willpower. If you stick around there much longer, you will eventually get sucked back in and we won't hear from you again. It happens more than you would think.

You remind me so much of where I was right before I left my former abusive church 10 years ago. I knew that the things I saw taking place were very wrong, but all of the God-talk and Scripture-twisting had me completely brainwashed and powerless over the control and manipulation. This is why most of the members of these groups never leave. The few who do wake up and try to break away from the group get love-bombed and manipulated through threats of being "cut off from God" and "turned over to Satan".

You wouldn't be here if you thought it was safe to stay in that group. This forum can provide the support that that you need to make your escape. When you're ready to make your jailbreak, we will be here for you.

:cool:

[outcast]

I just wanted to second all the responses I've read here so far. This woman does sound like a complete and total mooch. Wisdom would dictate to her that she should sell her fancy home to live off of instead of filching her friends.

It is clear also that she is certainly NOT taking care of anyone else's needs and her friend who is allowing her to be a mooch is just as culpable as she is for the situation being so dire. Grrr! These people piss me off because you sound like such a nice person and they are totally taking advantage of your good conscience.

They should be strung up.

[JaniceB]

The few who do wake up and try to break away from the group get love-bombed and manipulated through threats of being "cut off from God" and "turned over to Satan".

"Love-bombed." What a great descriptor of what they do to people! The bomb will still destroy even if it's scented with roses.

This woman does sound like a complete and total mooch. Wisdom would dictate to her that she should sell her fancy home to live off of instead of filching her friends.

Yes! Run while you have the chance. She's just a big fish in a very small pond of her own making. Just get away from the pond.

[Lvanett]

I just realized that this lady seems to be expecting others to support her, when as Outcast said, she's basically expecting others to take care of her needs. I remember when she told me the story of simply giving up her fancy home and possessions, that she asked for confirmation of it and someone she didn't know told her (upon hearing her story) that maybe she shouldn't sell it....and she took that as for the Lord confirming that. But for some reason, every time I've heard that story, I get this funny feeling (maybe it's God?), and as I think about it now, I have to wonder if that "feeling" I get is actually the Lord saying, "I didn't tell her to do that" or if she's not telling the truth or covering something up... I could be wrong...

I feel like she's basically saying thru her actions, "I need _________ and only (insert person's name here) can help me."
Not to sound judgemental, but I wonder if she's seeking Him first.

Still, since she has chosen to just up & leave her former fancy home and give most of her things away, if she's now saddled with debt and can't even afford to pay rent, I would think or hope that she's seeking the Lord about this and asking Him if she did the right thing? I'm not saying that He wouldn't ask us to do that, but I don't think He expects everyone to do it....or does He?

I think sometimes people take Scripture too literally and that maybe she has done that in this case.

[outcast]

I think your right in that God wouldn't tell her to give everything up in order to get into debt or to put her burdens on others.

I also agree that it does sound like she is trying to manipulate others to do things for her. To me, that is extremely low since she is claiming to be a pastor.

I don't think you are being judgmental by simply calling things as you see them. Judging someone means you look down on them for their actions with the attitude that you are superior to them, it doesn't mean that we can't tell someone when they are wrong or identify a fault in their character.

I hope I don't sound correctional here :o I just hate it when well meaning christians feel they can't express their opinion because the church has mis taught what it really means to pass judgment on someone.

My advice to you is to let yourself get pissed off at these people and the situation. It will give you great strength to do what you need to to protect yourself.

I think God would be pissed too. :mad:

[Grey]

Wow, I am glad you are getting out of there, you have my support.

[Lvanett]

Well I should clear one thing up: J (the one who left her home and gave up everything) doesn't claim to be a Pastor, but does teach a weekly book study, gives counseling (even tho she's not really trained or accredited to be one) and also teaches Hebrew. I don't know if that makes a difference.

S is the one who is supposed to be a Pastor. She's also the one who lives near me....only 50 feet away. She can look out her window and see me leaving or entering my apartment. Scary!

[Grey]

It sounds like S purposely looks for you? eeekk :eek:

[FreeinJesus]

.....

S is the one who is supposed to be a Pastor. She's also the one who lives near me....only 50 feet away. She can look out her window and see me leaving or entering my apartment. Scary!

Seriously, those are some strange people. Very, very cultish & controlling, IMHO.

Maybe you should tell them that God has called you & now you consider yourself a pastor....tell them you'll be waiting for their 10% tithe to support you.:cool:

[outcast]

Thanks for clarifying. That's what I get for not thoroughly reading the OP, huh? :o

Even though J is not claiming to be a pastor, she is still a mooch in the extreme. S sounds like a wierdo freak too. I mean, if she is literally watching you come and go from your house, that is a serious infringement on personal space. It sounds like she does it on purpose so that you feel paranoid and hence they can control you all the more. :eek:

These people need help.

I agree with FIJ. You should claim to be their pastor and start demanding a tithe. See how they like their own medicine -eh? :rolleyes:

[FreeinJesus]

....It will give you great strength to do what you need to to protect yourself.

I think God would be pissed too. :mad:

((Outcast)) so true! I think God gets sad & mad when the strong take advantage of the weak & use him name to do it.
Just what I think there.

Also, what makes one a "man or woman of God"???? All I know is any nutjob can do that. :rolleyes: I know my xpastor would always talk about how he's been preachin' since he was 18 or something like that...he felt God had called him...:rolleyes:
I just will not accept this "being called" BS anymore.

When I see someone SERVING & not just to manipulate someone....THEN, I might think they are genuine. However, it seems to me this "man & woman of God/pastor" title seems to give these religious leaders control that God never intended for humans to have over one another.:( it's unfortunate.

[outcast]

Amen!! It's like a self-made spiritual pedigree or something. I too am very cynical when I hear someone proclaim themselves to be called of God to the ministry.

In fact, it makes me nauseous.

[Lvanett]

You should claim to be their pastor and start demanding a tithe. See how they like their own medicine -eh? :rolleyes:

I needed a good laugh, thanx!:D
I don't teach, so they'd probably try to get around it that way. :rolleyes:

S doesn't watch me all the time, at least not that I know of....but it does bother me when she sees me doing things like taking a cab to work (it's been bitter cold the last few days and there was no way I was going to wait for a bus) and then hear her say how she sees me taking cabs to work every day....all because she saw me in the cab as we drove by her waiting at the bus stop.

I hate this right now....I'm having second thoughts about leaving....I don't know if it's the Lord trying to get me to reconsider, my subconscious just trying to help out, or the Enemy trying to ruin things.

The thought "give them one more chance" keeps coming up...I need discernment because I've noticed that when it comes to major decisions, I have a hard time with that.

As for someone being callled, it doesn't bother me....as long as that person is not abusive or manipulative with that title.

[FreeinJesus]

Amen!! It's like a self-made spiritual pedigree or something. I too am very cynical when I hear someone proclaim themselves to be called of God to the ministry.

In fact, it makes me nauseous.

Totally!

[Gayle]

Lyvanett, I went back and forth a lot on giving another chance before I left my group and it really had to be my own decision too. That's true.

The things these people are doing to you and to each other just doesn't seem realistic or healthy. For one, a person giving counseling doesn't turn around and require you to pay their way in life. Any mentally healthy therapist would know that. They would have resources to meet their needs so that they are not putting more burden on you. This should not be happening whether you are in therapy or if you have had therapy with them in the past. Its just not ethical. A good therapist knows how easy it is to sway a vulnerable client by listening to you and meeting some need then turning around and putting the onus on you to meet their need, whether its financial, sexual or emotional. Sounds like the therapist with 9 cats needs some serious therapy herself.

These people are totally using you because they know they can. It is mentally and emotionally draining to break away from people like this. But it is even more draining mentally emotionally and financially to be performing at their beck and call in the name of Christianity. That is just not christian.

After leaving it takes time to move away from the guilt feelings and the tugs to go back which is another clear sign that it isn't a healthy place to be - if it was healthy they would encourage you to take breaks, to try new things, to do something for yourself, take a vacation etc. You wouldn't be feeling guilt over leaving or trying something different. They would try to find other resources so you are not the only person meeting their needs and contributing to the group instead of sucking whatever they can. The lady with 9 cats wouldn't be saying things like having to put your "tithe" towards feeding all those cats. That is so misuse of financial aide and of yourself. Vulnerable people will bend over backwards and fold to feel loved and accepted. It shouldn't be this way.

"Seeking the Lord's voice on things" is a saying many cults have, in my opinion. It's one of the biggest ways to make a person feel guilty because that way the abuser can say "but God told me this so you must not be listening." The vulnerable person already doubts their own decisions so it makes it easy for the group to keep you there. God also gave you a brain, gut feelings, emotions and common sense to use in making decisions.

I wonder if you have any supports close by that are not inside this group? Gayle

[Lvanett]

Hi Gayle, :)

I don't recall seeing you before so let me say "nice to meet you!"

I don't have any support groups, but I consider this board like a support group. For the most part, Christ is my support. He is my help, my recovery system, my counselor.

You are so right about what they're doing. I feel like kicking myself for being so gullible. My problem is, I'm so badly wanting to serve the Lord with my gifts and music ministry, that I'll practically go anywhere and give almost anything a try. Notice that I said "ALMOST"...which means if I know a church in need of a keyboard player or singer is abusive, legalistic, or cultish, I certainly wouldnt go there. There is a church nearby that I used to attend and serve at....but I left about 10 years ago. I've reconsidered going back there to serve in music ministry, but there's 3 problems: 1) they already have 2 worship teams so they don't need a 3rd keyboard player; 2) I have to question whether or not they're into dramatics....when I visited there last spring, a lady stood up during one of the breaks in worship and prophesied aloud how the Pastor had "my Father's heart," etc. etc. - then she fainted in her seat when she was finished; and 3) the congregation and staff are mostly folks in their 50s, 60s, and 70s....aside from kids I didn't see one person who looked younger than 50 there....so I wonder if they'd be willing to include a 44 year old who looks more like a 28 year old. They might see my youthful face and decide to snub me. That's a crazy thought, but then we live in crazy times!

[outcast]

I needed a good laugh, thanx!:D
I don't teach, so they'd probably try to get around it that way. :rolleyes:

S doesn't watch me all the time, at least not that I know of....but it does bother me when she sees me doing things like taking a cab to work (it's been bitter cold the last few days and there was no way I was going to wait for a bus) and then hear her say how she sees me taking cabs to work every day....all because she saw me in the cab as we drove by her waiting at the bus stop.



Your are very welcome for the laugh my dear. You deserve it!

It does sound like this S person has a sick sense of reality. Frankly, it is none of her damn business how you get to work every day and if she is a true pastor, she shouldn't be commenting on it to anyone.

:mad: How dare she?

I don't mean to try to sway your thinking here, but IMHO, I don't think it is God trying to tell you to give these people another chance, not without them fully repenting, anyway.

I think they have programmed you to feel how you are feeling. These are sick people and I think that deep down you know that, but I know it is really hard to make the break and finally leave. I will be praying for you this weekend.

[Voyager]

I feel like kicking myself for being so gullible. My problem is, I'm so badly wanting to serve the Lord with my gifts and music ministry, that I'll practically go anywhere and give almost anything a try.

Most of us have felt the same way. It's a catch-22. They take advantage of our passion to serve God and exploit it.

There is a saying that love can be blind, and I know my love for God was very blind. Corruption and abuse was happening right before my eyes, but I was blinded to it because I didn't want to acknowledge it. No one wants to wake up to the fact that their church or support group is abusive and corrupt, but in our hearts we come to this forum because we know it is true.

:(

[Gayle]

...... Notice that I said "ALMOST"...which means if I know a church in need of a keyboard player or singer is abusive, legalistic, or cultish, I certainly wouldnt go there.

Hi Lyanett, it is nice to meet you too. :)

I just wanted to say this regarding your words on "almost." The group you are presently with does seem to be abusing you financially if not mentally and emotionally. e.g. the guilt trips, the expectations of you to be what they want you to be. Then the guilt trips and so on. I'm sure God would not want you to become depleted in the process. Even taking a break from the group so you can look at the larger picture of what is going on could help you decide if you will stay or go. My feeling is they wouldn't encourage that either for fear of losing your assets.

It might help to get information on what to look for in a healthy church before joining another abusive group. I think someone has posted some articles on what to look for in healthy/unhealthy groups or churches, if someone knows which ones to dig up, that might be helpful..... if you're interested. Gayle

[Lvanett]

Oh I know what to look for...LOL that's how many churches I've been to (and through). I know what article you mean tho, cuz I've read it and it has been helpful.

I'm glad everyone here has been kind enough to point me in the right direction.
It really is a help during times when you're trying to think straight and can't....the folks here help keep you on the straight and narrow road with Christ.

My plan for today might sound bizarre but it should hopefully work: I plan on not being home when the time for church comes. That alone will set them off...however I have a note for S & J (one for each of them) telling them I am taking an "indefinite leave of absence" and that I am unable to tithe for an indefinite period, which is the truth, because I've been tithing to the point I don't have enough money for food. In that note I have told them to not call, email, write, visit, or contact me in any way nor dig for information...and also not to send someone else to watch me or find out about me either.

I have to keep my phone turned off....I can't and won't answer the door unless it's an absolute (real) emergency....I have to avoid riding certain buses because S rides the same one I do to get home....oh I just hate what these groups make people go thru to gain freedom and peace of mind!
I really don't see myself going back there. I just hate the fact that if I want to serve there, it comes at the expense of J's so-called counseling sessions (or as I call them, browbeating sessions) and S going along with it all. The money part I could deal with if I wasn't so broke myself most of the time...I'm trying to do the right thing to help J cuz if I don't she tells me about how she has to live on $100 or less for food for herself and her many pets, and I'm giving til it hurts...(I don't say that for sympathy, just stating a fact) and meanwhile I'm also experiencing broken promises, contradictions in statements, and who knows what else. I know noone's perfect so I have forgiven and forgotten much, to give them the benefit of the doubt, to show them I won't hold things against them. But the trust between me and them was broken once and for all during the Christmas Eve surprise visit last year....I was accused of abusing J, giving her no respect, etc.....and that's when I began to seriously pray about leaving that place. I told her I was tired of her nonsense and that she expects people to be perfect clones of her. That just launched her into another long tirade.

I'm sad to leave, but for the sake of my sanity, it has to be done. J can be a nice lady sometimes, but she's too paranoid, moody and pushy for me to be around with much. I pray J will not try to visit or contact me in ANY way to get more information, because I'm frankly tapped out. BTW I'm asking for prayer that she will not try to take back anything she gave me....she gave me a beautiful orange cat and when I told her that he wasn't 100% happy yet after he'd only been with me 2 weeks, she threatened to take him back by the end of January. I fear she will misconstrue my leaving as an excuse to keep the cat (who I love and is now a happier boy) and will find SOME way, somehow to get him back....that's how crazy she is.

[Voyager]

My plan for today might sound bizarre but it should hopefully work: I plan on not being home when the time for church comes. That alone will set them off...however I have a note for S & J (one for each of them) telling them I am taking an "indefinite leave of absence" and that I am unable to tithe for an indefinite period, which is the truth, because I've been tithing to the point I don't have enough money for food. In that note I have told them to not call, email, write, visit, or contact me in any way nor dig for information...and also not to send someone else to watch me or find out about me either.

I have to keep my phone turned off....I can't and won't answer the door unless it's an absolute (real) emergency....I have to avoid riding certain buses because S rides the same one I do to get home....oh I just hate what these groups make people go thru to gain freedom and peace of mind!


Wow, it sounds like you are really entrenched into that group pretty deep. I hope your plan works out, but I wouldn't be surprised if they try to harass you to try to wear down your resistance. You may end up being better off to move away from all of it. Are you buying or renting?

When my wife and I left our abusive church 10 years ago, we ended up moving out of the town the church was in. It was too difficult to deal with having church members drop by and knock on our door (initially), having them shun us at the grocery store after we wouldn't come back, etc. We put our house on the market and moved within six months.

I realize you may not be able to move away right now, but be prepared for their manipulating love-bomb tactics - especially if they were counting on your tithe money to cover expenses.

:(

[outcast]

I agree that your plan is a good one. I also agree that they will likely try to love bomb you - especially since they now know you are willing to confront them in any way and stand up to their abuse.

See, they don't really want that because they know they cannot win an argument with you now that you realize how twisted they are. Instead, they are going to try to trick you into thinking that your confrontation (by leaving them the notes) has worked on them and that they are so very sorry. Or, they will simply go out of their way to be as nice to you as possible.

This is exactly what my ex-pastors did. They disguised their tactic with extreme niceties and declarations of concern for my future well being. :rolleyes:

Whatever you do, don't fall for it. People like this usually never change without professional help, and even then it is still doubtful.

I hope that you don't have to move in order to break free from these people. Personally, I would just cuss them out if they came near me. Let them know in no uncertain terms that you will call the police if they bother you and you will expose them to the world for being exactly what they are. And, if that lady tries to take your cat from you, I would call the police on her. It is your property now. They have no rights here.

I know that the cussing part doesn't sound very christian, but I think that sometimes you need to go to extremes to make sure people know you are not going to put up with their treatment of you.

[Lvanett]

Hi folks,

I rent my apartment. I've lived her for almost 19 years....and am one of the longest tenured residents here. I'm able to have 3 cats, unlike others, cuz I am under the old lease so I am SO grateful to the Lord for that. I am not about to let anyone try to get me to leave, because I get a real deal on my rent thanx to my long "citizenship" here.

I would never resort to using curse words...I hope to not have to speak to them at all. If they come to my door and try to talk to me, it won't work, because I have no intention of speaking to them. If push comes to shove, I will instead be firm and defend the boundaries I've set.
Besides, I already cursed at J. once, and of course J. cursed me back. I didn't call either of them dirty names, but like I mentioned before, I did try to tell J. (politely!) that she expects too much from people and that I can't be as perfect as she expects. Her standards for everyone are way too high....plus she believes 80 to 90 percent of people are "out to get" her. That said a lot to me about her mental state, since that sounds like a paranoid or other type of mental disorder personality. I've been diagnosed as bipolar BUT I take meds for it and even before I got medicated, never thought that "80 to 90%" of people are out to get me. (I trust people but use caution.)

Incidentally, S. called me up about 10 minutes after "church" was supposed to start...she left a message but I only listened to the first 3 seconds, since I wasn't sure who it was (her number shows up as "blocked" on caller ID) but as soon as I heard the "Yeah Lyn" intro which she always starts with, I deleted the message. I'm not about to listen to what they have to say. No contact means NO CONTACT. PERIOD. But S. has already violated that and called, so I will start to take the appropriate steps to prohibit her from calling again. I need to find out if there's some way I can actually block S.'s phone number....anyone know?

BtW I expect J. will next either call or do something rash, in the name of trying to help or something.

I really do wish I didn't have to resort to kicking them out of my life, because I really did enjoy leading worship even if it was for 3 people or so. If only they hadn't manipulated and harassed me, this could've been avoided...

[Hope 98]

Hi folks,
I need to find out if there's some way I can actually block S.'s phone number....anyone know?

BtW I expect J. will next either call or do something rash, in the name of trying to help or something.

I really do wish I didn't have to resort to kicking them out of my life, because I really did enjoy leading worship even if it was for 3 people or so. If only they hadn't manipulated and harassed me, this could've been avoided...

First, I want to say I truly relate to the way you finished this post. It is painful to get to a point of needing to kick people completely out of your life. You are taking appropriate measures to protect and defend yourself, and if you're anything like I am, there are going to be times you may feel guilty. Don't feel guilty about feeling guilty!! But don't let it stop you from maintaining your boundaries. In time, you'll become comfortable with them.

There are probably call blocking options depending on your telephone service provider and location. There may also be a fee involved, but it may be small enough a cost to be worth the expense for your own safety and peace of mind.

I know there was a number that used to call our house often, but I found I could set my telephones to simply not ring when that number called. I also have a computer program that can answer calls from some numbers with a specific message and then hang up. That would depend on your computer being hooked up to your phone line.

You could even go so far as filing charges against the folks if they continue to try to contact you.

Remember that you are worth enough to take measures to protect yourself from their manipulative behavior.

[outcast]

First I must say that I admire your self control to not curse these people out. I am also proud of you that you deleted that phone message. I agree that they have shown that they will not respect your boundaries if they are calling when you told them not to in no uncertain terms.

Hope is right about contacting your telephone service provider. If that doesn't work to block their numbers you can also change your number and make sure it is unlisted. We did that in a way when we cut off our land line and resorted to getting new cell phone numbers.

It sounds like you've taken the first steps with great resolve. That, I believe, is the worst part. Stay strong. :)

[Voyager]

I am not about to let anyone try to get me to leave, because I get a real deal on my rent thanx to my long "citizenship" here.

Good for you - that's a great attitude!


I really do wish I didn't have to resort to kicking them out of my life, because I really did enjoy leading worship even if it was for 3 people or so. If only they hadn't manipulated and harassed me, this could've been avoided...

I know the feeling. That's the main reason I stuck around for a year-and-a-half after I figured out the leader was abusive and corrupt. I had 12 years of myself invested into the group of 450 members. I played bass guitar on the worship team. I had cutoff all friends and what little family I had outside the group. I was taught to be scared of "the world" and that Satan would take over my life if I ever left the group. I knew if I left that my world would fall apart, but I eventually was willing to risk that and I escaped in 1998.

Things were not pretty after I left. I struggled with my decision, and I missed the people that I had grown to love as family. But I could not go back. Once I left I was able to see the abuse and corruption much more clearly. When you are in the group you are brainwashed. Some people join another church after leaving their group, but I didn't. I was too worried about being taken advantage of and duped again. I will never let another human being take control of my spiritual life and manipulate me with religion again.

Some of the people here left their group and found another church to be involved in, and some haven't. You can always find another church to use your talents and gifts in. Just make sure to find one that doesn't violate this checklist:


Does your church tightly control the flow of information within its ranks?

Does your spiritual leader use public shaming as a method to gain the compliance of followers?

Is your spiritual leader intolerant of questions or critical inquiry?

Is your spiritual leader the exclusive means of knowing "truth" or receiving validation?

Does your spiritual leader have unreasonable fears about the outside world such as evil conspiracies or persecutions?

Are you discouraged to associate with former members, being warned that they are "evil" or "defiling"?

Is leaving your group to join another church equal to leaving God?

Does the surrounding community view your church as a cult?

Does your spiritual leader consider it evil persecution when criticized or questioned?

Do the goals of your spiritual leader seem to supersede any personal goals or individual interests?

Do you fear being rebuked, shunned, or ignored for expressing a different opinion?

Do former members often relate the same stories of abuse and reflect a similar pattern of grievances?


If you answered "no" to all of the above 12 questions, your church is very healthy. If you answered "yes" to three or more, your church is showing signs of being unhealthy. If you answered "yes" to six or more, your church is very unhealthy. If you answered "yes" to eight or more, your church is more than likely a full-blown authoritarian cult.

:cool:

[outcast]

Wow... after reading Voyager's post I had a flashback to the night I realized my old church was a cult. Although some characteristics were more prominent than others, my old church exhibited all of those traits.

Fortunately, my new church doesn't seem to exhibit any. So far, anyway. :)

[Lvanett]

Wow... after reading Voyager's post I had a flashback to the night I realized my old church was a cult. Although some characteristics were more prominent than others, my old church exhibited all of those traits.

Fortunately, my new church doesn't seem to exhibit any. So far, anyway. :)

I know the feeling. I'm always wary of any new church I visit that I know nothing about.

[Lvanett]

It's already starting.

I got another call from S. tonight - this time the little sneak used J.'s phone, probably in hope that I'd answer - and I listened to the message.

Just like the first abusive church I left, these 2 are already wanting their things back. She gave me a short list. GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR Then she said to let her know when she could come over. How nervy that all they can think of after I leave is that they want their crap back. SHEESH! That sounds like a whiny crybaby move IMO. "Waaah! we want our stuff back, waah! We want our paints back even tho they're mixed in with yours and 85% them are yours. Waah!" I guess they don't care about anything except material goods.

One thing they wanted back were their acrylic paints, but I can't return them (and won't) because I don't know which ones were theirs...I bought a large number of paints myself and put them together with theirs. (Besides, such paints are easily replaceable.) I did return the other things on their little list....I deliberately went over in the middle of the night (just now in fact) and dropped em off. This is twice now that S. has violated my boundaries, and is now resorting to wanting to come over to pick up things, when she was told NO CONTACT OR VISITS. One of the other things were their platters, the plastic kind you get for free when you buy a fruit or veggie type platter. "Waah waah waah!"

I wouldn't be a bit surprised now if one of them tries to call me using a completely unknown number to me....or tries to come in and brings a cop.

[Lvanett]

Just for giggles, my answers to my former church.


Does your church tightly control the flow of information within its ranks?
yes

Does your spiritual leader use public shaming as a method to gain the compliance of followers?
yes - I just learned of an ex member who was asked to confess ALL of her sins in public during "church"

Is your spiritual leader intolerant of questions or critical inquiry?
yes indeed

Is your spiritual leader the exclusive means of knowing "truth" or receiving validation?
no, she has her little sidekick S. with her

Does your spiritual leader have unreasonable fears about the outside world such as evil conspiracies or persecutions?
somewhat...she thinks 80 to 90% of people in general are out to get her

Are you discouraged to associate with former members, being warned that they are "evil" or "defiling"?
well yes to an extent, but they're not called evil or defiling

Is leaving your group to join another church equal to leaving God?
not that I'm aware of (yet)

Does the surrounding community view your church as a cult?
the community doesn't know about their church, but those outsiders who've heard about it sure feel that way

Does your spiritual leader consider it evil persecution when criticized or questioned?
I have to wonder....

Do the goals of your spiritual leader seem to supersede any personal goals or individual interests?
yes

Do you fear being rebuked, shunned, or ignored for expressing a different opinion?
yes - it was one of my reasons for leaving

Do former members often relate the same stories of abuse and reflect a similar pattern of grievances?
I've only talked with my friend Kim who went there, but she shared the same story of abuse and mistreatment

[Voyager]

Just like the first abusive church I left, these 2 are already wanting their things back. She gave me a short list. GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR Then she said to let her know when she could come over. How nervy that all they can think of after I leave is that they want their crap back. SHEESH! That sounds like a whiny crybaby move IMO. "Waaah! we want our stuff back, waah! We want our paints back even tho they're mixed in with yours and 85% them are yours. Waah!" I guess they don't care about anything except material goods.

This happened when we left our church too. It also happened to families who left after we did.

Two days after we "escaped" our church, we started seeing things that we had lent to people show up in our yard. Tools, a lawn mower, even a baby crib. Our yard started looking like a junk yard due to all the stuff. I look back now and laugh, but it was painful at the time. It triggered the abandonment from my childhood and made it hard for me to trust people again.

:(

[Lvanett]

Guess I shouldn't be surprised that it's happened to others here, too.

I am somewhat fearful they will try something drastic, since S. has shown no respect for my boundaries...I know this is crazy, but can they force their way in somehow, like having a police officer escort them? I just wanted to know my rights, if any.

[Voyager]

Guess I shouldn't be surprised that it's happened to others here, too.

I am somewhat fearful they will try something drastic, since S. has shown no respect for my boundaries...I know this is crazy, but can they force their way in somehow, like having a police officer escort them? I just wanted to know my rights, if any.

No, they could not. Not even your landlord has the legal right to intrude into your residence without your permission. Short of a court-ordered search warrant (which would only be issued if you committed a crime), no one has any right to enter your home without your permission. Even if the police had a search warrant to enter a residence (which is only granted in extreme circumstances), no one would be allowed to accompany the detectives into the residence.

:cool:

[Grey]

((((((((((((hugs))))))))))))))) to you, Lvanett.

[Reg]

Some of the people here left their group and found another church to be involved in, and some haven't. You can always find another church to use your talents and gifts in. Just make sure to find one that doesn't violate this checklist:


Does your church tightly control the flow of information within its ranks?

Does your spiritual leader use public shaming as a method to gain the compliance of followers?

Is your spiritual leader intolerant of questions or critical inquiry?

Is your spiritual leader the exclusive means of knowing "truth" or receiving validation?

Does your spiritual leader have unreasonable fears about the outside world such as evil conspiracies or persecutions?

Are you discouraged to associate with former members, being warned that they are "evil" or "defiling"?

Is leaving your group to join another church equal to leaving God?

Does the surrounding community view your church as a cult?

Does your spiritual leader consider it evil persecution when criticized or questioned?

Do the goals of your spiritual leader seem to supersede any personal goals or individual interests?

Do you fear being rebuked, shunned, or ignored for expressing a different opinion?

Do former members often relate the same stories of abuse and reflect a similar pattern of grievances?


If you answered "no" to all of the above 12 questions, your church is very healthy. .........

:cool:
Good list John. Thankfully, our church doesn't even come close to any of those. Wish all of you could attend one service. It's so refreshing. I have done a lot of healing there. I only had one bad experience. That person is now gone.

[Lvanett]

Wow! Praise the Lord Reg. This may sound funny, but I have yet to find such a place. But I'll keep looking!

[christian sister]

I can't belive that your neighbors at the apartment complex haven't complained either because of the noise or taking up parking in the parking lot. But yes, you have got to QUIT this "church" I cant belive how your being taken advantage of and thats just not right!
Yes, turn off your phone,and dont answer the door, put a note on the door the next Sunday saying this is no longer the meeting place! These people have no right telling you how to run your life, your a grown up!
I know how hard it can be to leave a church it took me 11 years to leave mine. I actually had to move to another part of town,that gave me the courage to leave soon after I moved. But the main thing was that I was so unhappy there and the people just didn't care about me.
But yes, take a cab to Walmart it has to be cheaper then that "lady" charging you all that money,and then were the tithe money is going....come on, you know its not being use the way it should.
When I needed a ride from one of the people at my church I was told, "my car is not a taxi cab" even when I needed to go to the hospital one time, I had to beg for a ride.But I was warned from the begining that is person would never be a good friend,just a fair-weather friend and thats what they turned out to be.
I had unsaved people help me more then any help I got from the "church"

[Lvanett]

I already left the 'church' this past Saturday. They took it OK....S. of course called me using first her own phone then using J.'s wanting their stuff back. Then J. called me Sunday from her friend's phone saying the same thing. Guess they both thought I was going to claim their stuff they left here as mine, when I'd never do that. I reluctantly called J. and told her I'm burned out and that I found S. to be pushy, also that their stuff was returned to S.'s apartment.

In typical love bombing fashion, J. said that she was sorry for anything she did or said wrong, asking forgiveness (which I of course gave) and so on. She also said she wouldn't take my cat away, which was a help. She said she knew that was one reason I left and I wanted to tell her, "more like one of many reasons I left." I know that if I hadn't left, none of that would've happened. I also know however that the abuse would've just continued and she and S. continued their mistreatment.

If the weather is good I might visit a church this weekend. Last Sunday we had snow so I stayed in.