Beginning to be concerned. Who is running this board? Why don't they respond?

[Ameen]

Hello.

I hope that this post will not be taken the wrong way. As an abused person, it is very hard for me to feel safe anywhere. In addition--and I must apologize if this is offensive--my attackers are usually Christians. I am beginning to have a bad feeling about this board and want to air it out rather than let it fester. Perhaps some of you can make suggestions.

In addition to my OCD board (my only 'regular' board), I sometimes dabble in other boards like this one for a limited time. On every board I have ever been part of except this one and the Christian board I was thrown off of, I have had a good relationship with the administration or, if admins are not involved in day-to-day functions, with the moderators. I need to know that as long as I follow their rules and am a productive member who contributes to the board's aims, they will have my back if homophobia or any other type of prejudice surfaces.

I have traditionally had a very hard time with Christians in the real world and on the Internet who assume things about me but don't try to get to know me. (I have even been attacked more than once on my OCD board--It seems gay people should be allowed to suffer, according to some--but the moderators have been quick to put a stop to it each time.) Either folks attack me outright or ignore me--and when the latter happens I often find out that they have been flapping about me behind my back. Obviously, attacking someone sends up a red flag, but so does ignoring someone.

For this reason, I am more than alaramed by the refusal of the folks running this board to respond to any communication I send. Before joining, I contacted someone named Jeff via the contact link to ask if this would be an appropriate place for a gay atheist who was spiritually abused when he was a Christian and was still recovering. That way, if it was not, I would not have to get hurt yet again. This Jeff never answered, and so I joined uncertain if I was doing the right thing. He still hasn't returned my message.

I have posted here again and again about my inability to upload an avatar so that the admins would see:

http://www.christianrecovery.com/vb/showthread.php?p=64365#post64365

Spiny Norman and Jerry posted there to try to help me, and I greatly appreciate it. Spiny Norman's link is the same one by which I contacted this Jeff in the first place. Someone else sent me an e-mail address by private message for someone named Dale (the same person Jerry suggested I contact). I e-mailed the avatar to this Dale, but no one has responded.

I can understand if these people are too busy to get involved. I myself answer a ridiculously large number of panicky messages from my university students (some of which are personal and have nothing to do with me or my class) and panicky messages from folks on my OCD board. I know what it is to be pressed for time. In addition, the person who sent me Dale's address said it might be outdated. O.K., these things happen. I understand.

But surely, if they do not have the time to get involved, they have assigned delegates who run the board and carry out such functions (answering inquiries, posting avatars, defending members who are attacked, etc.) in their stead. Who are these people? I asked the same in the thread for which I have provided a link.

This is no longer about my introductory letter or my avatar. If there is no way to conact the administration (something I have never ecountered on a board), I feel unsafe being here. The Christians I have exchanged posts with here have been wonderful, and as I have said before I have never been able to speak to Christians without being judged before. I am grateful for that. Nevertheless, I know, for my own safety, that I must avoid places where those in charge ignore me. If no one is in charge, people can abuse me any way they wish--and as a gay atheist on a Christian board I am an easy target.

Please try to understand where I am coming from.

Ameen

[ex-shep]

Honestly, i do not know how to respond. I am sorry that your complaints were not being addressed. I am just another poster with some years on the board and that is about it.

I can listen. I do understand the frustration. I have been on the receiving end of similar abuse or misunderstandings. It does not feel good.

it is hardly an official rule, but the only requirement for forum membership is a desire to recover from spiritual abuse and have common sense respect of other members. Some of us are Christians in the evangelical sense of the word, many are not and sizable number are somewhere in between. Personally I admire your honesty and your desire to recover.

I do not have the answers to your complaint and feel frustrated in that respect. I do sincerely hope they are properly addressed. In the meantime, hang out as much or little as you wish. Virtual coffee pot is always brewing. Glad you are here. Keep on posting.

[ex-shep]

Honestly, i do not know how to respond. I am sorry that your complaints were not being addressed. I am just another poster with some years on the board and that is about it.




Should read "on the forum". Sorry about that. It is past my bedtime and my cognitive abilities are starting to decline for the night.

[Jerry]

Dear Ameen,,,
Sorry for the slow response.If you look at the top of the page,you will see a tab called "User CP" click on it,it will direct you to the User Control panel.On the left side of the page is a menu.Select "Edit Avatar".Scroll down the edit page and you will find instructions on uploading a custom Avatar.When uploaded your Avatar is added to the Avatar selections,Then you go in and select your Avatar for display.I am "Moderator" of the Nacr and the Spiritual Abuse Board :eek: Go figure eh ????? :D Hope this helps.

Love Jerry

[Ameen]

Thank you both for the responses.

I hope this is an appropriate thread. I have learned that I have to be my own advocate in life and not rely on others; for this reason, unfortunately, sometimes I am too aggressive. In looking at my initial post in this thread now (the next day), I fear this may have been one of those cases and apologize if it is.

Jerry: Yes, it helps--A LOT--to know that you are a moderator, as your posts are quite fair. I made no assumptions about your powers here, as there is a fellow on my OCD board who can delete SPAM and inappropriate posts but does not have any other moderating powers. Like me, he simply helps the woman who owns and operates the board without being a moderator. (She once asked me to be a moderator, but I declined.)

Avatar... Here is a capture of the screen after I used the "Edit avatar" link. This is as far as I got last time. Perhaps I simply can't find the instructions for uploading a personal one, in which case I am at fault. If you can see them, would you please point them out?

http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a220/vluku/Miscellaneous/Editavatar.jpg

Is it possible that one has to have a minimum number of posts before this information appears and one can use a personalized avatar? That may ccount for my inability to find them (assuming that I am simply not seeing them because I have not looked properly). If so, please add this information to the FAQ.

ex-shep: Thank you for the kind words. As always, they are appreciated.

WARNING TO ANYONE READING THIS:

THIS IS ANOTHER CASE WHERE PEOPLE WHO ARE STRUGGLING WITH THEIR FAITH AND ARE NOT UP TO HAVING IT CHALLENGED SHOULD READ NO FURTHER. WHAT I AM ABOUT TO WRITE IS ONE OF THE REASONS I AM ON THIS BOARD, AS I WANT TO BE MORE ACCEPTING OF CHRISTIANS IN GENERAL. NEVERTHELESS, WHAT I SAY ABOUT CHRISTIANITY HERE IS NOT WHAT YOU NEED TO READ.

I am afraid the very word "evangelical" fills me with anger and fear. I will of course accept and support everyone here since that is the right thing to do, but in my experience evangelicals are the toughest Christains for abused people to deal with. This is, perhaps, where I can use the board to understand a group better. Again, in my experience, they will lie, distort facts or humiliate people who simply want to get past abuse in order to 'save souls'. On the Internet, they lurk around chatrooms on atheist boards so they can try to reconvert new atheists who are insecure in their new beliefs and already feel bad. This is why many boards, including my atheist board, have been forced to restrict the activity of theists. It would be like my coming here and trying to turn people into atheists, which even I say would be unacceptable.

Anyway... On the Christian board I was thrown off, I once dealt with evangelicals who were talking about how Jews went to hell unless they converted since Jesus is the only way to Heaven. I made it clear that the Nazis were Christians who were able to kill millions of Jews with no guilt since their religious interpretation made the Jews less than human. I then suggested setting up extermination camps for six million random southern Baptists--men, women, and children--saying that it might give them some insight into what they were actually saying.

They were unable to understand my example at all, and blasted me for calling for the death of Christians. I gave up in disgust and simply said they had demonstrated why the Romans fed them to lions.

Another time an evangelical minister was talking about Mormons in hell, and I sent a picture of a Mormon friend by private message. I told the minister to look into her eyes and tell me if she was a human being with rights and feelings. Of course, I was told that someone like me (gay? atheist? liberal?) could not possibly understand.

Oh, I understood all right.

This is the kind of thing that got me banned--and I learned no 'lesson' save to talk even louder.

So... And this is asked of anyone reading this, not just ex-shep... How do I possibly tolerate such hateful people? I really don't know how.

In reason,

Ameen

[Voyager]

How do I possibly tolerate such hateful people? I really don't know how.

I must admit, I am no expert at it by any means. I have done my share of reacting to people who seemed hateful to me, and it has never paid off. When I react, I go into a hypervigilant mode that my mind has setup to protect and defend me from rejection and abandonment. This defensive system probably developed in my brain when I was being neglected as a child. When a situation presents itself to me that seems to threaten my fragile belief that I am a good person and worthy of love and care, it can trigger my defense system.

Abusive religion is one of the most cold and callous forms of fake love. It is based in fear, guilt, and shame. It feeds on our desire to be accepted by God. No one wants to be rejected by the Creator Of The Universe. Therefore, religions can play on our weaknesses to manipulate us into submission. However, once someone wakes up to this charade it can cause a lot of suppressed anger and frustration to come to the surface that has been pushed into remission - sometimes for an entire lifetime.

The process of going from a passive religious pew-sitter to someone who is in charge of their own life can be compared to a volcano that became active after a lifetime of inactivity. All of the molten rage, repressed emotions, and suppressed anger finally reach their flash point and come shooting out of us - many times at inappropriate times. For example, you could be in line at a grocery store when someone butts in line in front of you. Your first initial reaction is to be a nice passive Christian and turn the other cheek (due to years of religious brainwashing). Then without even having a chance to think about it, you become hypervigilant and begin reacting to the person, telling them off in an angry tone about how disrespectful it was for them to butt in line.

I personally get triggered the most when someone uses religious shame on me. As many of the forum members around here know, I can become downright mean when someone uses Bible verses to condemn me. When this happens, I have a split second to decide whether to react or respond. My track record on making the right choice hasn't been very good. I'm still working on it.

When I first saw you posting on here, I figured you would get condemned to hell and banned from the forum within a few days. It has been refreshing to see the opposite happen. For the most part people have allowed you to vent your frustrations without beating you up with Bible verses. This is a good thing. I do not believe it is possible for people to begin recovery from spiritual abuse until they are allowed to be themselves without being shamed and condemned for their religious beliefs (or lack thereof).

Here is an article that I found on how to deal with repressed anger below. Once we learn how to respond instead of react to our triggers, we are on our way to recovery.

Children who are abused feel an enormous amount of anger and rage. Unfortunately, in most cases, it is not safe for abused children to express their anger, so they learn how to repress it instead. These children grow into adult survivors of childhood abuse who continue to repress their anger, often at the expense of struggling with anxiety and/or depression. This happens because anger that is not permitted to express itself turns on the person who is repressing the anger. Adult survivors of childhood abuse will not fully heal from their pasts until they heal their anger. Here is how to heal repressed anger.

Step #1: Recognize that you have repressed anger. Many adult survivors of childhood abuse are so disconnected from their repressed anger that they believe they do not have the ability to feel this emotion. If you were abused and have not yet processed your anger, you have anger festering inside of yourself.

Step #2: Express your anger physically. Try punching pillows, popping balloons, throwing things at a wall or taking a kickboxing class. Doing something physical provides your anger with an outlet.

Step #3: Invite the anger to come out. You might not feel anything when you first start punching the pillows. As you continue the physical activity while inviting the anger, the anger will express itself through the physical outlet that you are providing.

Step #4: Allow yourself to feel the rage. If you have lived your life disconnected from your anger, the first wave of rage might frighten you. Visualize the rage pouring out of your soul. As you express your anger, it is losing its power over you.

Step #5: Connect the anger back with the abuse. See your abuser's face as you punch the pillow.

Step #6: Rest. Processing anger is exhausting, so be gentle with yourself after the fact.

Step #7: Repeat these steps over a period of weeks or months until you have given all of your repressed anger a voice.

It's obvious that you have decided not to repress your anger anymore, so I think that is a good sign. Once its gone, you won't have to live with it repressed inside of you anymore (well, at least not as much - I don't think it ever goes away completely).

Hope this helps.

:cool:

[outcast]

Ameen, I just wanted to congratulate you on your boldness to say how you really feel in a potentially scary and uncertain place. I've read through this thread to see your story and I am appalled that you were ever banned from the aforementioned forums.

It didn't sound like you were guilty of anything except trying to have compassion on everyone and speaking your mind. I know by experience, however, that this approach is not always respected and all too often sparks fear in christians - especially if they have not really thought through their logic.

I was impressed by your analogies in both situations and I think that you expressed some very valid points. I am truly sorry that these other christians were not willing to listen and consider your points of view.

I think it is refreshing that someone who is (by their own description) an openly gay atheist trying to recover from past church abuse is willing to join a christian forum. I welcome you here and I hope that you will find the elements you need to recover from past abuses. I know I have.

You sound like a very brave and intelligent person. I for one am glad to see you here and I look forward to hearing other viewpoints you have. :)

[Spiny Norman]

Ameen, I've also had a look at the user control panel mentioned. It seems clear to me that the option to "upload user avatars" is turned off by the sys admin. Given the sort of board we are, I can understand why. Someone might upload something horrendous and offend everyone.

Then again ... someone today can post anything and offend everyone (I'm sure I have done my fair share of that) ... so surely avatars could be moderated as well as posts?

I share your 'fear' about lack of visible/responsive moderation, but perhaps that also is deliberate? The last thing many of us want is a visibly controlling environment. Perhaps its a trade off between safe and free?!

EDIT: or perhaps the system admin is on holidays, like me, and will be more responsive when s/he returns?

[dougjb]

Hi Ameen,
I do not know if this will help but I had a similar experience in contacting the administration, so I thought. I dropped them a line and there was no response, so I kept on attempting to contact them with no success. It turned out that my anti-virus program was quarantining the administrations response. If you have program that quarantines e-mails, you may want to check it out.

dougjb
some food for thought

[hornblower]

Ameen, you always make me laugh, you are way cool my friend.
That was funny about the evangelicals.

I also enjoyed your post Vyager.

I wanted to just say here that as for myself I once again get grieved at realising how all of the good things that Jesus did while on the earth have become twisted at the hands of hateful men and women.

Do you hate Him Ameen or do you just not believe He ever existed at all?

In any case whether He was real or not can you not see that maybe its because of these hateful horrid people that the good that might have been done at one time has been changed by the people representing it?

As for me I think it happens everyday. I know its right now happening to me.

I did a good thing by caring for my poor parents. I didnt steal or abuse them I loved them as well as I could it was difficult because they both were very ill with alsheimers. How anyone can take something I meant for good and make it become evil is I dont know>?????? I dont understand it at all, do you see what I am saying?

My sister obviously hates me for some unknown reason and thinks of what I did as my means of gaining money.

Now me Im not quiet like Jesus was when He suffered on the cross but then again may I mention here that Jesus was noty always so quiet about being treated with such obvious disrespect. He got plenty tired and discusted with those stupid ignorant Jack a***** he called pharisees........the religious leaders of the day.

When I prayed one day about my sisters actions I thought I heard this about her state of mind.......she is self righteous.

She always thinks of herself as being right.

This is a true mark of a pharisee to me always thinking they are right and everyone else is wrong never looking at the other side of things and judjing everyone by their own code of ethics.

Jesus is my favorite jew by the way but believe me he was and is a jew first and foremost........he loves his own people which at time is more than I can understand..... Im only saying this because I have many jewish relatives and we dont get along very well. Some of us do and some of us dont. It depends on how they treat me when I say what I want to say and believe what I want to believe. Evidently that is not ok with them.
I accept them they dont accept me.
whatever!

Like you Ameen Im always getting kicked out for being who I am so in my book we are in the company of a great man who understands all of that very well because of anyone could get kicked out and often it was Jesus.
I think another guy that gets a bum rap is Paul but you know thats just me and my silly ways.
I kind of like outspoken people that love others and do good.

Yea for you that you told them off. But I have to admit thats weird in my experience that any evangelical whatever that is I dont really get that ........baptists I get.........but on here Im always hearing about evangelicals I dont think I know who they are exactly..........any way the sets of people I was around oh my gosh youd better not ever say anything about the jews because jews to them were like gods or something.

I think of jews like everybody else they are people.

Im very sorry about their ancestors or any type of persectuion they went through at any time as I am of any person suffering any of that, its all so scarey and frustrating and verty sad isnt it this earth and the meaness in it.

Voyager it meant a lot what you said about reacting to the junk done to us. I did that yesterday and now I am suffering those consequences, its making me very sick at the moment.........so good night all.

I love you guys.

[leelees]

That was funny about the evangelicals.

my abuse was from a lot of evangelicals....they were far from evangelical....

voyager...thats me..im a repressed person...but i cant let mine go because i dont want to face it again....i dont need to "go through it" all again!


just pick one of the avataars from the screen

[Ameen]

I have to make two posts, as your site has told me this:

1. The text that you have entered is too long (13714 characters). Please shorten it to 10000 characters long.

THIS IS PART ONE OF A TWO PART POST.

Wow! There's a lot of good stuff here, and I thank everyone for responding (even though we are barely mentioning the original topic of this thread). I will write something back to everyone. But first...

Let me start by saying that I was banned from the Christian board in 2004 for more than objecting to notions of Jews and Mormons in hell. I can't list everything here, but I will give two more examples and then explain the incident that proved the last straw.

In addition, this will give you a much more complete picture of me and help you to see where I am coming from.

WARNING: AS ALWAYS, CHRISTIANS WHOSE FAITH IS IN CRISIS SHOULD NOT READ THIS POST. I MAKE NO APOLOGIES FOR IT, BUT I AM NOT OUT TO HURT CHRISTIANS WHO HAVE ALREADY BEEN HURT ENOUGH AND ARE ON THIS BOARD TO READ SOMETHING MORE AFFIRMING. YOU WILL NOT LIKE WHAT YOU READ HERE, BUT IF I WROTE LESS HONESTLY I WOULD NOT HAVE THE RIGHT TO ASK FOR PEOPLE'S RESPECT.

--This is the one where it all comes out--

I got into a lot of trouble on that board when I came to the aid of a guy in his early 20s; he was practically suicidal because he felt he was a horrible person. It seemed he was unable to control the "sin" of masturbation. (I couldn't believe that someone in the 21st century was still being taught that masturbating was reprehensible. Then again, I used to know someone whose church still taught that masturbation was the sin of murder since you killed the soul in the semen.)

Anyway... I contradicted all the Christians who told him to pray harder, think of the flames of hell, play sports, take cold showers, and so on by saying that, as long as it was not an addiction, masturbation was healthy since it served a physiological and psychological purpose.

In the past, I explained, people married as soon as they were sexually mature, but today we put off marriage for university, graduate school, the start of a career... All men (but young men in particular) have urges that they need to take care of, and denying these urges can only cause psychological harm and put the body under stress. This is why all young men masturbate, as well as why a number engage in pre-marital sex. I then wrote that there is absolutely nothing wrong with putting off sex until you are ready or even until you are married if that is what you wish, just as there is nothing wrong with having it if it is safer sex and the partner freely consents, but putting off masturbation serves no purpose. (This is very much what I do on the OCD board)...

And I was torn to pieces by the head honco, who said the young man considered it a sin and therefore had to find a way to stop masturbating and be returned to grace blah blah blah... I said that in no way would I allow someone to suffer needlessly because of Christian brainwashing. And then the bastard locked the thread.

Tammy Faye Bakker was still alive then, and she and Jim had new ministries. There was a thread on the board about how the two had 'repented' and now truly preached the word of God... People on the board were actually sending them money! Can you believe it?

As a concerned former cult member who used to send money to Herbert W. Armstrong and his Worldwide Church of God, I asked if the Bakkers had paid back the money their PTL had stolen from seniors' life savings--and if the seniors who had lost everything were being housed at the Bakkers' expense. I then said that of course the Bakkers would repent and cry black mascara tears on TV; after all, they loved their gold fixtures and air-conditioned dog houses.

I wanted to warn people not to trust these charlatans and urge them to give their money to reputable (real!) charities instead; I ended up pissing off half the board.

Eventually, I got yet another nasty e-mail from the head honcho, this after I had made it clear that he was not to send me any private communications. Anything he needed to say to me was to be done on the board and thus be in the public eye. (He was loving on the board, where people could see him, but different in private.) I posted his e-mail on the board to show people how he had addressed me. Within five minutes it was deleted and I was banned. I then sent him an e-mail about how proud I was to be banned.

He had warned me in the past not to post his e-mails, something I had already done--and I had told him to stop sending them to me. If he disobeyed my wishes, why did I have to obey his?

Anyway... On that day I became an atheist. As I have already written, my motivations for becoming an atheist were wrong, but now that I have studied the issue at length I stand by the results and maintain that there is no God.

I was already leaning in that direction from many real life experiences, and by that time I had been agnostic for more than a decade. Still, at that point I realized it was impossible for me to be a Christian. I just can't hate and deceive the way so many Christians do. (Sure, as a human being I do indeed hate and do terrible things--but Christians let it interfere with the way they treat others, something I never do as a teacher or even as a person on the Internet reaching out to others. I don't pick and choose whom I help.) I also cannot think of myself as better than everyone else the way Christians do.

@ Voyager: I agree that depression is anger turned inward, and that is, in fact, what I often tell people on my OCD board. I also think the degree of OCD I suffered comes from repressed anger. This is something I continue to work on, and I really like the general tone of your response.

What I needed to do to be well is not something Christians will agree with, though. One of the first things I did when I was an atheist was something I had repressed all my life. I sat in mock prayer and cursed out God and Jesus in the foulest terms I could think of. My vulgar language was off the charts. Further, this is something I did many times, not just once, and it felt great since I had held in my rage for so long.

So, if there is a God, I am already damned. What I did is an unpardonable sin, which is why I could not do it before I became an atheist--and I did it 50+ times over the course of about three years because I needed to get it out. What can I say? If there is a God and a hell, at least I'll be psychologically healthy while burning. :D

And not having to hold it in any more is probably the reason I am able to write so calmly on this board. I think the last time I cursed out deities who don't exist was 2007, which is not so long ago.

Anyway... Back to 2004. I next went to an atheist convention (the Freedom from Religion Foundation) in Madison, Wisconsin, paying hotel and air fare from New York just to speak at an open mike and pour out a lifetime of religious abuse. Whenever I had tried to express how much I was hurting to Christians, they had not taken me seriously or they had started quoting their Bibles. The atheists at the convention, on the other hand, gave me a standing ovation, something few of the speakers got. Several came up to me afterwards and congratulated me. It was the first time in my life I felt validated.

God/Jesus had never validated me--had never made me feel good even once. Everything I learned from 'God' was about how horrible I was. All the times I was abused and mocked as a child and then as a teen, I had sought God for comfort and love. But he wasn't there, so I overate and became an obese teenager desperately in need of love. Eventually I learned to love myself, curse out people who abused me, and use an exercise bike.

Now, I think, all of you understand me a lot better. (I have not even gone into the gay stuff, as this post is already too long.)

@ outcast: You are very generous with your praise. I am hardly a brave person, though. Rather, I am committed to getting well, and I know how my OCD works. Behavior therapy for OCD includes exposures--in other words, exposing oneself to the very thing that causes so much distress and obsessive thinking, then doing nothing at all to counter the anxiety (no OCD rituals, no logical arguments, no assurance) so that it fades on its own. Eventually, it just starves.

Applying behavior therapy small step by small step (under the guidance of a professional or on one's own if one is well acquainted with the technique) builds new grooves in the brain and stops OCD in its tracks. (In OCD brains, the mechanism that lets one get past frightful thoughts is defective, and these thoughts get 'stuck').

If a person is afraid to ride in an elevator, for example, he must first talk about riding in elevators with a behavior therapist. Nothing more can be done in the first session, as that will have proven stressful enough. In the next session, perhaps the two can look at photos of elevators and discuss their colors, design, size... Maybe the next time, the person must walk into and out of an elevator (possibly with the therapist) but not actually go anywhere. The next time the person may ride up or down only one floor; the therapist should go with him or her. The exposure keeps getting increased little by little. If necessary, the same step can be repeated during many sessions--particularly if the anxiety is all-encompassing.

Eventually, the person should be able to read articles about fatal elevator accidents with only minimal anxiety--and, of course, should be able to ride in an elevator whenever necessary.

So, that's what I am doing here.

Some people (like me) also need medication because the OCD (or generalized anxiety disorder or other anxiety-based disorder) is so bad.

[Ameen]

THIS IS PART TWO OF A TWO PART POST. PLEASE READ MY OTHER POST FIRST. ON MY SCREEN THIS POST APPEARS ABOVE MY FIRST ONE. I DON'T KNOW IF IT APPEARS THE SAME WAY ON YOURS.


@ leelees: I hear you. I know how hard it is, and I feel for you.

@ hornblower: I am really sorry that you do through that with your sister. It's never easy when it is someone who should be more supportive.

I accept your faith and beliefs as important to you, and for this reason I will not contradict anything you have written. You have found a way of getting through the day that works for you, and that is what matters.

As for me (answering your question)...

A. I don't believe God and Jesus ever existed, save that a human named Yeshua (Jesus) to whom many marvelous things were falsely attributed may have actually lived. Perhaps he was even crucified, as were many, many criminals since it was the day's equivalent of the electric chair.

King Arthur and Robin Hood also have many marvelous legends attached to their names, yet if they actually lived the real McCoys were unremarkable figures who did nothing worth mentioning.

B. I hate God and Jesus for not existing. If Jesus were real...

1. He wouldn't frequent corporate boardrooms, and if he went to a Republican convention it would be to overturn the tables of the moneychangers.

2. He'd befriend prostitutes, drug users, the homeless, racial minorities, gay people, transsexuals and transvestites, battered women in shelters, retarded children and adults, the illiterate, old people in nursing homes, and everyone else society sees as garbage.

3. He wouldn't condemn people with AIDS while toting large signs saying that they brought it on themselves. Instead, he'd heal them.

4. He wouldn't approve of billions for war dollars to kill people in countries that don't want McDonald's golden arches while children go hungry. (And I don't mean foreign children only--I mean American children too. And not just in Appalachia either: Right here in New York City.)

That's why I'm so angry that he isn't real, and that what we have instead is the Jesus who came to drive families apart in his name (his own words) and didn't come to bring peace (again, his own words). We have two thousand years of racism, sexism, homophobia, pograms, war, inquisitions, intolerance, repression and horror in his name.

I do what I can to reach out to students in need in my university, OCD people in need... I also used to do volunteer work teaching adults to read. I cannot sit silently when I know people are suffering, and I have paid the price again and again for saying what I believe is right. I was even fired from my job in the 90s for "insubordination." I have one book in my field out, and I lost the contract on number two because I refused to follow corporate policy and change it in an educationally unsound way. Now I am scrambling to find another publisher, a near impossible task in this economy.

At the end of the day, there is no God standing behind me and supporting my efforts to make some sort of indentation, to give some people some sense of hope and pride. A damn shame. I could use a friend.

But even without a God I will do what I can in the name of justice. Human justice, as that is the only type possible.

Now you know just about everything.

In reason,

Ameen

[Reg]

Have a little time today to poke in and see what's going on.

Ameen,

You mention a number of times how Christians have treated you and what Christians have done in the name of Christianity.

We've discussed this before on this thread and the links at the bottom of this thread.

The Invisible Church
http://www.christianrecovery.com/vb/showthread.php?t=8502&highlight=invisible+church

Here's a part of one of those links that may clear this up for you.


"The church viewed through the lens of “institution” is distorted. By contrast, the church seen through the lens of “organism” becomes clear."

What we are looking at is the visible church/religion. What I and the article talks about is the invisible church guided by the Holy Spirit. It is not an organization but a living ORGANISM. The Spirit guides and directs those who have His Spirit and are a part of it. It is scattered thoughout the visible church and not to be confused with the visible church.

John 4:23
Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks.

I agree that a lot that has occured in the name of Christianity and the religions of the world is unChristian. However the invisible/spirit led church has not taken part in any of it. It follows the principles of Christianity and has been largely ignored by much of the Institutional Church......
http://www.christianrecovery.com/vb/showthread.php?t=7382&highlight=invisible+church


BTW, folks, the Boat Show is going very well. The Direct Energy building is so huge, I think they could put half of Manhatten inside it. Wish all of you could attend it. It's an amazing show.

[Jerry]

Dear Reg,,,,,

Only them "Crazy Canuks" would go boat shopping in the middle of winter :D :D :D :D Enjoy the show buddy ;)

[Ameen]

Dear Reg,

I believe you are being sincere and are trying to be helpful in what you posted, and I appreciate that. In addition, I said from the beginning that I would accept and respect everyone here, and I absolutely extend that to you.

As I once wrote to hornblower, this is a Christian board, and I am fine with folks quoting the Bible, preaching, and exploring Christianity in any way they wish. That is your (plural "your") reason for being on this board, as well as your need and right. It is what helps all of you recover from spiritual abuse.

However, when such things are directed at me specifically, it rubs me the wrong way. Please bear with me. I want to discuss what you wrote because such a response can be very, very hurtful to a spiritually abused person who no longer believes in God and the Bible. We (You and I) are coming at recovery from very different walks of life, and for this reason I write this post with no animosity and no hard feelings on my part.

Just as I honor and uplift you (again, plural "you") as Christians, I need to be respected as the person I am. That includes respecting my atheism.

The "one true church" and "invisible church" and "no true Christian would..." argument has been given to me many, many times. I see it as a logical fallacy, and I don't buy it. ("One true church" et al is the argument my cult used to preach. In fact, that's what all Christians preach, yet all these "true Christians" who "talk to God every day" come up with diametrically opposed conclusions and consider each other false churches. It's enough to give anyone a headache.)

In addition, quoting the Bible, the book in which infants' heads are dashed against rocks in the name of God, will never win points with me. (I objected to the dashing part when I was only a kid, and as usual I was yelled at by the Nazi, uh, by my Sunday School teacher.) Please don't direct Biblical quotes at me. I have had my fill.

Finally, I am a real person with real feelings, not a Christian statistic; I am looking for empathy and understanding. That is what I give to others here, and that is what I have gotten from outcast, hornblower, willow, and others. Did you read my posts before you responded to them? Here is what I wrote; please pay special attention to what I have underlined.



Anyway... Back to 2004. I next went to an atheist convention (the Freedom from Religion Foundation) in Madison, Wisconsin, paying hotel and air fare from New York just to speak at an open mike and pour out a lifetime of religious abuse. Whenever I had tried to express how much I was hurting to Christians, they had not taken me seriously or they had started quoting their Bibles. The atheists at the convention, on the other hand, gave me a standing ovation, something few of the speakers got. Several came up to me afterwards and congratulated me. It was the first time in my life I felt validated.

God/Jesus had never validated me--had never made me feel good even once. Everything I learned from 'God' was about how horrible I was. All the times I was abused and mocked as a child and then as a teen, I had sought God for comfort and love. But he wasn't there, so I overate and became an obese teenager desperately in need of love. Eventually I learned to love myself, curse out people who abused me, and use an exercise bike.



Your post is about the church and includes a Biblical quote. But what about me and the deeply painful things I wrote in my two previous posts? What about my feelings? My shame? My dignity? My needs? Your response feels... cold.

I needed to say that, as I was angry when I read your post this morning and waited until the evening to respond. Again, I know your intention was to help, and I think your wisdom and Biblical knowledge will indeed help many Christians. Just please remember that I am not here to become a Christian. I am here to continue healing.

In reason,

Ameen

[hornblower]

Ameen........love it.........two things you said in your post to reg are so awesome to me..........God/Jesus had never validated me--had never made me feel good even once. Everything I learned from 'God' was about how horrible I was. All the times I was abused and mocked as a child and then as a teen, I had sought God for comfort and love. But he wasn't there, so I overate and became an obese teenager desperately in need of love. Eventually I learned to love myself, curse out people who abused me, and use an exercise bike.


I havent gotten the bike yet but Ameen...........I felt that exact same way. I still suffer with it so much and Ameen...........once again not trying to convert you, I swear its ok for you to remain in any state you so choose, if there is one thing I believe God is about, its freedom above all things

I know you hate scripture but heres one of my very favorite scriptures and no obvdy showed it to me as all scriptures that mean a lot to me are.....I just plain old read the stuff you know?

Anyway 'where the spirit of God is there is freedom!' wow I think that is so
cool.

Anyway I just had to say that to you.

Also I loved that part about

The "one true church" and "invisible church" and "no true Christian would..." argument has been given to me many, many times. I see it as a logical fallacy, and I don't buy it. ("One true church" et al is the argument my cult used to preach. In fact, that's what all Christians preach, yet all these "true Christians" who "talk to God every day" come up with diametrically opposed conclusions and consider each other false churches. It's enough to give anyone a headache.)


Ive been thinking about this very thing you state here.

You know what I think it might be?
I think it might be about that same freedom kind of thing?

Like what if........God.......let us be free........what would we all do? Wed like duh............fight all of the time..........lol.

yep we would, silly little freaky idiots like us, ok speaking just for myself then.

It really is enough to give anyone a headache!

Lately, and I have no way of knowing if Im right or not, who knows who is right about anything?.......especially because of this unbelievable nastiness Ive gotten into with my sister........Ive been wondering if any of us knows much about anything and maybe its like this huge war we are in like star wars, and we cant see the damnable things at all.

Like I could swear somethings sitting on my sisters and my shoulders having a high old time watching us tear each other apart and laughing at us the whole time?

I know long story there but anyway my point is that all of these differing points of view get us to hating each other and its like I think theres one big misunderstanding going on everywhere.

You and reg too know that what we all need is love, isnt it?

yeah it is. we all need that and nobody knows how to give it thats the problem.

Anyway I just know that one day after a long bout in chemo and a staff infection from my port........which what that amounted too was me being still for six months and staring at an every increasingly spiderwebbing celing.......just watching dust collect and wondering what fresh air was........I was driving to work and I heard God say to me just to can it............yep trash all of the crap and flush it right down the you know whatter and get back to who and what He was really about and that was love.

I know Im a woman so what do I know?

Not much.......but its pretty cool to realise I dont have to know much.
I couldnt hear God loving me untill I started learning to do just what you said I had to learn to love myself.

You see.........before I had cancer and got so sick........I was always trying so hard to be a christian..........not just a christian but to be what I think was what I thought everybody else wanted me to be as a christian.

That wasnt God speaking to me at all.

God is about freedom. the bible says so but we always neglect those scriptures...........preachers dont preach on those scriptures and why would they?
if its about freedom.......where would they be? Out of a job honey thats where theyd be!

Ok so christianity is a mess.

I thought it was going to be so tidy and clean but its not its a friggin nitemare!..............I dont think its Gods fault that its that way I think its ours.

But thats ok. Its a mess. Im a mess. Thats ok that Im a mess. God loves my mess.......He loves me.........He gets me and its ok.

I can hear Him loving me thats all I wanted to share and I cant help it, you scare me Ameen but I cant help it, I love you anyway. I love the things you say.
Of course I love you too reggy.

[leelees]

i may be have missed something ameen..but if you say you arent a christian why are you on a christian forum?

when you put something that could be quite hard for the abused to read and you tell us not to read it, its kind of hard not to not read it...

[Ameen]

Thank you, Dale Ryan (whoever you are!) for responding to my e-mail. And thank you, Jerry, for you effort in getting my avatar up. I don't know which of you did it, but I thank you both.

Of course, I will require rotating personal avatars that change every other day... ;)

--------

@ leelees: Fair question! I am here for behavior therapy (my own choice and my own doing) so that I can get past a lot of my resentment of Christians. Because I have OCD, it is harder for me to get past anything than it would be for most folks. I was also spiritually abused in my religious cult back when I was a Christian, and that is something I am still processing even after all these years.

Nevertheless, I make a point of respecting all the viewpoints here. I say what I believe and what troubles me, but I never mock or belittle anyone. (If I ever do without realizing it, please tell me and I will apologize.)

Also, there are a number of Christians on my atheist board. Some are respectful and are in turn respected by all but a few Fundamentalist atheists. Other Christians are condescending and thus treated with scorn.

@ hornblower: It's a shame we're not in the same town, as I think we'd have a blast raising hell together! (My vocal professor/coach is in her 70s while I am 43, but that doesn't stop us from palling around and having fun. Even when I was in my 20s, I had many older friends.)

Actually, you remind me of my great Aunt Josie (my paternal grandmother's sister), who passed away in 1994 and whom I miss. She was always the one I liked best--although I know she wouldn't be happy with my being an atheist since used to go on and on about how wrong atheist Madalyn Murray O'Hair, 'American's most hated woman', was. I don't know what she'd think of my being gay either; I was still in the closet when this photo was taken. I would like to think that she'd have accepted me as the person I am, but I'll never know.

Here she is (Aunt Josie--not Madalyn Murray O'Hair!) at my high school graduation in 1983. She is on the left (your left, my right) in the flowered blouse; my grandmother is in green on the other side. I am 17 and am wearing awful 1970s glasses. It's a scan of an old photo, so it is a bit grainy.

http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a220/vluku/Scanned%20Pre-Digital%20Family-Friends-Events/Graduation1983withAuntJosieandGrand.jpg

I am only half Arab/Lebanese. My father is Sicilian and Swedish, and my grandmother, Aunt Josie and one other sister were born in Sicily; all the other siblings were born in New York. In Italian, Aunt Josie was Giuseppina Nicastro. She married an Irishman and was Josie Sharp in English. My grandmother was Giovanna Nicastro in Italian and Jennie Johnson in English.

You wrote: "where the spirit of God is there is freedom!" What of the freedom to be gay, since that is the way my biology is wired, and to love another man? True freedom is being who I am and being loved unconditionally. Unconditional love would not require that I be heterosexual and only have sex with a woman when I have no desire to be with a woman.

Christians often focus on sex and lust and all other things they attribute to homosexuality, sometimes likening it to beastiality. What they miss is that gay couples are just like heterosexual couples. Some have loving relationships and others do not. I, personally, know a number of gay couples who have been together for more than ten years and truly love each other, yet Christians would have them break up. That doesn't seem like freedom to me.

Also, regardless of whether there is an invisible church (as Reg argued) or not, what of all the people abused in the name of religion? What freedom is there for a woman whose clitoris has been cut off or a child who has been raped? Those scars don't heal. I can't forgive a God who lets that happen. Just counseling people on my OCD board and listening to students who have hard lives and no one else to talk to is enough for me to know that there is no God.

But hey, if Christianity were real, I'd rather know a Christian like you than all the Jesus Freaks out there. :)

In reason,

Ameen



I don't have to agree with you to appreciate what you write and where it is coming from.

[Voyager]

i may be have missed something ameen..but if you say you arent a christian why are you on a christian forum?

Maybe I missed something, but I went back through the forum rules and I don't see anything that requires members to be Christians. Here is what it says:

This is NOT a place to criticize any specific group (church, college, cult, party or whatever). There are lots of places on the web where you will be encouraged and supported in your resentments. . . but this is not one of them. It's just not OK here. It is ok to be angry, it is ok to be damaged, it is ok to be in process. But if all you have to offer is raw, unprocessed resentments, you are probably not ready yet to take advantage of what this forum has to offer. You can certainly come and read, you are welcome here . . . but threads which engage in this kind of bashing will be deleted. So just don't bother. Do please consider posting when you have gotten a little more help and support and are prepared to join with others in seeking to make positive change.

Responses to some of the following questions will almost always be helpful to others. . . I encourage all of us to keep the focus on recovery:


What has been most helpful in your recovery process?
What has been least helpful?
How has your view of God changed?
How have your relationships changed? With family? With people still in the spritually abusive group?
What do you think would help you to reconnect with God?
What can you do to break the abusive cycle? Are there ways you have passed on the dynamics of abuse? To children? To others? And what might help you to avoid that?


There's lots of stuff like this to talk about. Please focus on the recovery process. How can we respond in constructive ways to the spiritual damage we have experienced?

I realize the domain name of this website is christianrecovery.com. I just figured it meant this is a place that you can recover from the damage done to you by Christians (i.e. addictionrecovery.com, alcoholrecovery.com, etc.). This forum actually started on spiritualabuse.com and then Jeff VanVonderan asked Dale Ryan to take it over because Jeff was too busy to moderate it.

Personally I was kind of glad to see how everyone responded politely to Ameen. It made me feel like maybe it was safe for me to post again. If you all are willing to accept a born again gay atheist, then that says a lot about how much the people here have recovered from the legalism and bigotry that usually accompanies spiritual abuse.

:cool:

[Ameen]

If you all are willing to accept a born again gay atheist, then that says a lot about how much the people here have recovered from the legalism and bigotry that usually accompanies spiritual abuse.


Amen!

(Pun intended)

Don't ever think I don't appreciate the way I am treated here.

[Reg]

Dear Reg,,,,,

Only them "Crazy Canuks" would go boat shopping in the middle of winter :D :D :D :D Enjoy the show buddy ;)
Got a little more time this morning.

We're not so crazy. That's the best time to sell or buy a boat. Everyone is available. The're not in the summer. The're all out on their boats.

The Show runs from Jan 9-18 for a total of 9 days with the first Friday being a special event for kids. That's 10 total. The weekend was very crowded. So far throughout the week there has been a steady flow of people . They estimate that a total of over 100,000 people will visit the show. If you've never been there you're really missing something. You can't believe how BIG it is until you go there. You can actually get lost in the building. They even have an artifical lake where they put on a daily show with boats and ski jumps.

It's by and far the largest show that Toronto puts on annually. Why not plan to come out next year? You won't be sorry.

[Ameen]

Now that your show is over, I trust that you read the post in this thread that I addressed to you, Reg. It's unsettling that your only response was to post about a boat show.

[Reg]

Now that your show is over, I trust that you read the post in this thread that I addressed to you, Reg. It's unsettling that your only response was to post about a boat show.
Sorry Ameen, I didn't see your post to me.

Also, regardless of whether there is an invisible church (as Reg argued) or not, what of all the people abused in the name of religion? What freedom is there for a woman whose clitoris has been cut off or a child who has been raped? Those scars don't heal. I can't forgive a God who lets that happen. Just counseling people on my OCD board and listening to students who have hard lives and no one else to talk to is enough for me to know that there is no God.

But hey, if Christianity were real, I'd rather know a Christian like you than all the Jesus Freaks out there.

In regards to your last statement, it sounds like what Ghandi said, "I'd be tempted to become a Christian if I ever met one."

All of the horrendous things that people have done to each other is truly sickening. To me and many of us here, religion is a dirty word. It has been used historically as a cloak to cover the dark deeds of those who want to control others. Those who claim to be Christians have killed other Christians. What about the basic command not to murder? Go figure. To claim to be a Christian and not follow a commandment like this, are they the real deal or Christian in name only? Whether you believe it or not, Satan is like that. He has many of his henchmen cloathed in sheep's clothing and these counterfeits are what you talk about.

The Invisible church I talked about follow the principles Jesus talked about like loving your brother. They treat others as they would treat themselves. With dignity and respect. How could they do those things you talk about and truly follow Jesus?

As far as God letting those things happen, I haven't an answer. All I can say is that most people don't want God to interfere in their lives and God is gracious to grant that request.

Here's a book you may want to read to help you understand why this may happen.
http://www.servicescancer.com/brain-cancer/unmapped-darkness-finding-gods-path-through-suffering.html

The cruelty you talk about is what mankind has done to each other. You can label it anything you want. The cover doesn't change the content. Jesus talked about the Pharisees as whitewashed tombs.

As I quoted from the thread we discussed this, "What we are looking at is the visible church/religion. What I and the article talks about is the invisible church guided by the Holy Spirit. It is not an organization but a living ORGANISM. The Spirit guides and directs those who have His Spirit and are a part of it. It is scattered thoughout the visible church and not to be confused with the visible church."

[leelees]

i dont like the way this forum is going...i find myself more and more stressed when i come on here so i shall disapear....*poof*

[Anna Marta]

Dear Ameen,

I have been waiting for something to fan the embers into a flame on this thread. I agree with Leelees about it. I too am uncomfortable.

I would like respectfully to comment in just as a forthright manner as you have in your posts.

When I decided to join this forum and read the Basic Rules, it was evident to me that this is a place for Christians who have been abused by other Christians and whose relationship with or faith in God has been damaged. This is evident in the following questions listed here as an example:


How has your view of God changed?
How have your relationships changed? With family? With people still in the spritually abusive group?
What do you think would help you to reconnect with God?

Ameen, it makes no difference to me if you or anyone else is gay, straight, bi or a-sexual. It does, however, make a difference to me when you object to a Christian member of this forum expressing himself using the basic beliefs of his faith to make his point because it offends you. It also concerns me that this forum is being judged by whether or not you feel accepted because of your sexual preference or atheism. It appears to me that some of the posts on this thread may be deliberately baiting people in order to evoke a response.

I respect your right to be who and what you are and live however you choose to live. I have read your posts including your personal story and it is understandable that you have been through some horrendous experiences in your life and that you would be going through an incredibly difficult recovery process. It is also understandable that you could be very angry and disillusioned for a long time. What is not understandable nor acceptable to me is that you use your rights to attempt to come against and/or judge those who do not live or believe as you do.

The Internet is huge and there are sites and forums for just about every interest, belief or flavor, if you are looking for a place to express your disgust and anger for Christians and expound on your own causes I suggest you find one.

[Gayle]

JMO but I think Jesus would invite Leelee's and Ameen to stay and continue dialogue. Gayle

[Spiny Norman]

Maybe I missed something, but I went back through the forum rules and I don't see anything that requires members to be Christians.
<snip>
Personally I was kind of glad to see how everyone responded politely to Ameen. It made me feel like maybe it was safe for me to post again. If you all are willing to accept a born again gay atheist, then that says a lot about how much the people here have recovered from the legalism and bigotry that usually accompanies spiritual abuse.
Just so there's no misunderstanding about the use of words here, and seeing as at least one other person is expressing their concerns. I'm reading what you've written and interpret it as follows:

I accept Ameen as a fellow person who has been damaged spiritually. I enjoy reading his posts, as he is an articulate writer. As an individual, as a fellow human being, he is accepted.

However you then seem to link my acceptance of Ameen the person to an acceptance of Ameen's life choices and/or behaviours. Nothing could be further from reality. Whilst I accept Ameen the person, as a self-described "born again gay atheist", I am:

- upset by his use of the words "born again" to describe himself (as a born again Christian, I find that a mildly offensive mis-use of standard Christian terminology);

- not necessarily in agreement with his position on homosexuality as it relates to whether it is a choice or not (I don't know enough about the topic personally, other than to observe that based on what I have read, the idea that it is genetic is a very 'long bow' and I lean towards the view that its likely to be predominantly environmental/social in origin); and I am one of many Christians who takes that view that homosexuality is a sin; and

- of course, I am not an atheist (not by a long shot)

So yes, I can accept Ameen, dialog with him, but I am definitely not accepting in the sense that I agree with him on many/most issues.

More troubling to me is that you indicate that our acceptance of Ameen is somehow tied to ditching "legalism and bigotry"? Excuse me? You'd need to do a lot of work to establish that all people who oppose atheism or homosexuals are legalists and bigots. Some of them? Sure, most likely. Almost certainly. But to tar me with that brush is offensive to me. Does that mean that you're being liberal and bigoted towards me? Possibly. From my perspective, probably.

So is this the stuff that what's getting people upset?

I would agree that the culture of this place has shifted subtly in the past month or so. Several posters have expressed some provocative things, and I've not bothered to post my view (which one could cast as diametrically opposite to their view) because I don't want to start a verbal fight.

Absence of disagreement is not evidence of agreement ...

Does that help? Or have I just made things worse?

[nolongerchristian]

I for one have very much appreciated everyone's amicable conversations with me and the tolerance I've received here.

Thanks for that!

You may not agree with me....or may think I'm a loon...but you are polite and respectful with your words.

And some have provoked me to further thought.

[Elisabeth]

I haven't read every word of all your posts, Ameen. I am a Christian, active in the church, btw. And I do think that your posts have been okay; I have at least skimmed them all. As far as you saying some things against God, well, my view of God is He's big enough to handle it! :p

You do accept that many on this forum are Christians. And you, although rail against God, do not come across as a person who thinks that those who believe are stupid or whatever. You seem to be wanting to learn, and that is part of what this forum is about.

[Ameen]

And now what am I supposed to write? I really don't know how to respond to all this.

I don't like to have words put in my mouth--particularly when I have never done what I am accused of.

I made it very clear that I did not object to anyone expressing himself or herself in a Christian way. I also made it clear that I was fine with folks quoting the Bible and expressing themselves any way they wished since this is a Christian board. In fact, I have encouraged people to do that. The only thing I asked was that Christian preaching not be directed at me, just as I have never urged any of you to become atheist.

In order to recover, I need to express myself exactly as I am, and I need to normalize my relationships with Christians. I have been posting on atheist boards for years and speaking to atheists in person. The next logical step is to speak honestly to Christians, first on the Internet and then in person. I have made this painfully clear and have explained OCD and my background at length. I also outlined the type of behavior therapy I am using to get well.

Here is the post to Reg that I referred to; it appears in this thread and was posted shortly after the one that made me very uncomfortable. I have not changed one word, so it will back up what I have just said.

I worked hard on it; I really went out of my way to be supportive of Reg's position, and I maintain that I was. (Did any of you actually read it, or did you just make assumptions about me?)

Dear Reg,

I believe you are being sincere and are trying to be helpful in what you posted, and I appreciate that. In addition, I said from the beginning that I would accept and respect everyone here, and I absolutely extend that to you.

As I once wrote to hornblower, this is a Christian board, and I am fine with folks quoting the Bible, preaching, and exploring Christianity in any way they wish. That is your (plural "your") reason for being on this board, as well as your need and right. It is what helps all of you recover from spiritual abuse.

However, when such things are directed at me specifically, it rubs me the wrong way. Please bear with me. I want to discuss what you wrote because such a response can be very, very hurtful to a spiritually abused person who no longer believes in God and the Bible. We (You and I) are coming at recovery from very different walks of life, and for this reason I write this post with no animosity and no hard feelings on my part.

Just as I honor and uplift you (again, plural "you") as Christians, I need to be respected as the person I am. That includes respecting my atheism.

The "one true church" and "invisible church" and "no true Christian would..." argument has been given to me many, many times. I see it as a logical fallacy, and I don't buy it. ("One true church" et al is the argument my cult used to preach. In fact, that's what all Christians preach, yet all these "true Christians" who "talk to God every day" come up with diametrically opposed conclusions and consider each other false churches. It's enough to give anyone a headache.)

In addition, quoting the Bible, the book in which infants' heads are dashed against rocks in the name of God, will never win points with me. (I objected to the dashing part when I was only a kid, and as usual I was yelled at by the Nazi, uh, by my Sunday School teacher.) Please don't direct Biblical quotes at me. I have had my fill.

Finally, I am a real person with real feelings, not a Christian statistic; I am looking for empathy and understanding. That is what I give to others here, and that is what I have gotten from outcast, hornblower, willow, and others. Did you read my posts before you responded to them? Here is what I wrote; please pay special attention to what I have underlined.

Anyway... Back to 2004. I next went to an atheist convention (the Freedom from Religion Foundation) in Madison, Wisconsin, paying hotel and air fare from New York just to speak at an open mike and pour out a lifetime of religious abuse. Whenever I had tried to express how much I was hurting to Christians, they had not taken me seriously or they had started quoting their Bibles. The atheists at the convention, on the other hand, gave me a standing ovation, something few of the speakers got. Several came up to me afterwards and congratulated me. It was the first time in my life I felt validated.

God/Jesus had never validated me--had never made me feel good even once. Everything I learned from 'God' was about how horrible I was. All the times I was abused and mocked as a child and then as a teen, I had sought God for comfort and love. But he wasn't there, so I overate and became an obese teenager desperately in need of love. Eventually I learned to love myself, curse out people who abused me, and use an exercise bike.


God/Jesus had never validated me--had never made me feel good even once. Everything I learned from 'God' was about how horrible I was. All the times I was abused and mocked as a child and then as a teen, I had sought God for comfort and love. But he wasn't there, so I overate and became an obese teenager desperately in need of love. Eventually I learned to love myself, curse out people who abused me, and use an exercise bike.

Your post is about the church and includes a Biblical quote. But what about me and the deeply painful things I wrote in my two previous posts? What about my feelings? My shame? My dignity? My needs? Your response feels... cold.

I needed to say that, as I was angry when I read your post this morning and waited until the evening to respond. Again, I know your intention was to help, and I think your wisdom and Biblical knowledge will indeed help many Christians. Just please remember that I am not here to become a Christian. I am here to continue healing.

In reason,

Ameen

This is why I do not know how to respond to Anna Marta.



It does, however, make a difference to me when you object to a Christian member of this forum expressing himself using the basic beliefs of his faith to make his point because it offends you. It also concerns me that this forum is being judged by whether or not you feel accepted because of your sexual preference or atheism. It appears to me that some of the posts on this thread may be deliberately baiting people in order to evoke a response.

Anna Marta:

1. I object only to being told to look at Christian sources alone to solve my ills, and indeed in his latest post Reg has recommended a Christian book to me. (I think he looked at the worng post, else he would not have made that recommendation.) Have I even once recommended any atheist books or given the name of my favorite atheist board? Have I ever told anyone not to express themselves in a Christian fashion? Or... Have I gone out of my way to try to help people here any way I could--even within a Christian context? I even urged someone not to be an atheist since it was not for everyone. I have respected all of you.

But I also have to respect myself, be true to what happened to me, say what I really feel, and say why I feel that way. Recovery is not possible otherwise. If that is not good enough for the board, I have no place here.

2. You are heterosexual; you have no idea what it is like to be rejected by hetero Christians again and again and again and again and... This is why I did not want to come to this board at all but risked it in hopes of healing. Actually, approval of my so-called "lifestyle" is not on the table; it isn't up for anyone's approval or disapproval. It's who I am.

3. You've accused me of baiting people and of coming here to bash Christianity. Have you read any of my posts in other threads, where I was not talking about my anguish, shame, and needs? Have you not seen me supporting others? How could you possibly accuse me of that?

4. If you are truly free from abusive religion and involved in healthy religion, then you should support truth above all and respect that people need to talk about their abuse in their own way and be affirmed for it. In addition, I am one person, and I have no power over you or your faith.

Why is my existence always a threat to Christians? It isn't logical.

i dont like the way this forum is going...i find myself more and more stressed when i come on here so i shall disapear....*poof*

I give up.

I cannot be the cause of people leaving, so this will be my last post. Kindly contact leelees and tell her I am gone; she never has to read anything I write again. She has a right to be here.

Besides, it would be impossible for me to continue here. After this, trust will never exist between us.

I sincerely hope all of you continue to recover just as I hope I continue to recover.

Please do not make any attempt to contact me. Let me leave with dignity.

In reason,

Ameen

[Anna Marta]

I have obviously been too strong in my wording. I apologize and ask for forgiveness if my post has contributed to more wounding and pain. I wanted to be straight-forward, not mean spirited.

Humbly,
Anna Marta

[Ameen]

I have obviously been too strong in my wording. I apologize and ask for forgiveness if my post has contributed to more wounding and pain. I wanted to be straight-forward, not mean spirited.

Humbly,
Anna Marta

Accepted. It was very big of you to write that, and I respect it. I am normally not a very forgiving person at all, but I want to show you that I can and do respect the tenets of your religion. More importantly, you need to come here for support and not have this thread hanging over you.

If any one else needs to say something like that, consider it accepted.

I still need to leave for the reasons I mentioned in my previous post in this thread, though. You (plural you--not just Anna Marta) are who you are, and I cannot ask you to change on my account. But, for my own recovery and mental well being, I cannot stay on a board where who I am biologically and through logic can actually be questioned and disapproved of. I struggled to hard to overcome those who manipulated me and be the person I am, and I will not fall back into old behaviors that others dictate.

I came back only to respond to a private message from yesterday, so I will not be back on the board again.

[Willow]

What a sad turn for the worse. I'm so sorry for Ameen who came here for healing from interaction with christians :(

[Spiny Norman]

The problem seems to be this: if you place two incompatible people in close proximity, then the options are pretty limited. Whether you look at it from Ameen's point of view (e.g. seeking normalisation [validation?] of who he is from Christian folk) or look at it from my view (e.g. feeling that the word Christian is being compromised in order to be 'accomodating' to non-Christians), either way, its a recipe for conflict. I don't see any way to avoid that ... other than by walking away and trying to pretend that the very real differences between Christians and other people don't exist. And I don't see that covering up real differences is helpful. Rather, its in some way deceptive and not helpful to either party.

I think its probably time for me to move on too. Over the past month, some of the discussion on this board has become a net negative for me. I've found it a bit stressful.

I think I'd rather be right away from any situation where I feel I need to express my personal beliefs or "defend traditional Christian beliefs".

[nolongerchristian]

Na. Don't you take off too!

Things seem to have stemmed from my appearance here.....

Which was not my intent...


I'll leave like Ameen did and you all continue as you did prior to my "testimony" post.

[Voyager]

Hey everybody, why don't we just accept each other as imperfect humans who have the common goal to recover from spiritual abuse? Let's not allow the very thing that we are trying to escape from drive us away from each other. Been there, done that, have the scars to show for it.

Are we hear to agree on doctrinal issues, or are we here to heal and recover? Are we here to debate the Bible, or are we here to support one another? If you see something that triggers you, you have a brief moment to decide whether you want to debate what you don't agree with or go to a different thread and ignore it. Trust me, I used to think that we all had to agree on doctrinal issues and it drove me away from here for over a year. I've come to realize that I don't need to agree on doctrine with any of you to provide you a shoulder to lean on and an ear to hear about what has hurt you.

Can we learn to embrace what we do like in someone while not allowing what we don't agree with to drive us away from them completely? It's so easy to think in black-and-white terms after being spiritually abused, but maybe we can learn to take what we need and leave the rest? I'm no expert at that, but I'm willing to keep working at it. If you will accept me with my strengthes and weaknesses, I will give you the same respect in return.

:)

[Gayle]

What a sad turn for the worse. I'm so sorry for Ameen who came here for healing from interaction with christians :(

Hey everybody, why don't we just accept each other as imperfect humans who have the common goal to recover from spiritual abuse? Let's not allow the very thing that we are trying to escape from drive us away from each other. Been there, done that, have the scars to show for it.

Are we hear to agree on doctrinal issues, or are we here to heal and recover? Are we here to debate the Bible, or are we here to support one another? If you see something that triggers you, you have a brief moment to decide whether you want to debate what you don't agree with or go to a different thread and ignore it. Trust me, I used to think that we all had to agree on doctrinal issues and it drove me away from here for over a year. I've come to realize that I don't need to agree on doctrine with any of you to provide you a shoulder to lean on and an ear to hear about what has hurt you.

Can we learn to embrace what we do like in someone while not allowing what we don't agree with to drive us away from them completely? It's so easy to think in black-and-white terms after being spiritually abused, but maybe we can learn to take what we need and leave the rest? I'm no expert at that, but I'm willing to keep working at it. If you will accept me with my strengthes and weaknesses, I will give you the same respect in return.

I agree. Gayle

[Gayle]

Na. Don't you take off too!

Things seem to have stemmed from my appearance here.....

Which was not my intent...


I'll leave like Ameen did and you all continue as you did prior to my "testimony" post.


no.....not your fault

[FreeinJesus]

DITTO Voyagers post....
we're all only human & will never get along 100%....we need to heal.:(

[Willow]

What if a person's path of healing leads them away from christianity? What do we do about it here? Are they still welcomed due to their history of spiritual abuse? Is healing from spiritual abuse the focus here?

Not everyone will find healing within the framework of christianity. Does that have to be a problem? Can we let go of our evangelical nature long enough to trust people to find their own paths... and even trust God and the Holy Spirit to do his job?

One of the most liberating discoveries I made (while still in the cult) was that I am not the Holy Spirit and it is not my job to save the world. That job belongs to God. My job is to love God with all my heart soul mind and strength and to love my neighbor as myself. Upon this the law and the prophets are hinged.

[Hope 98]

OK - I have to say that I'm saddened by Ameen's departure. I didn't see him as intentionally mocking us or baiting anyone.

I can see how he UNintentionally triggered people.

I don't think we know how to respond to people who are pushing our buttons because we've all been hurt. Let's give Ameen and ourselves some time to cool down. Let's not beat each other up.

I know that in my face to face world, I need to learn how to maintain relationships with people who don't agree with me. It's not easy! We can learn something here.

[Voyager]

I've seen too many good relationships destroyed by religious intolerance - before and after I left my spiritually abusive church. While I may not seem as "Christian" as some here think I should be, I look to what Jesus would have done. Was he ever intolerant of people? Did he ever cut ties with anyone and send them away? Was he a bridge burner?

What Willow said makes a lot of sense. Some people who are abused by Christians end up leaving the faith behind completely. Are those people not welcome on this forum? What if someone is here being supported by this forum, and in the middle of their healing and recovery they decide to question or abandon Christianity - are they no longer worthy of the support that this forum has to offer? Should we then give them the left foot of fellowship like our abusive churches did to many of us?

How long must we repeat the patterns of abuse that brought us all here? Is our faith strong enough to tolerate the doubt and unbelief of those around us? Must we purge the unbelievers from this site (and from our lives) in order for our faith to remain strong? If so, maybe we should re-examine our faith.

I'd better stop at the risk of sounding preachy, but I want to end with a question: Is this site only for Christians, or is it big enough to welcome spiritual abuse victims regardless of their current religious beliefs or lack thereof? (I'd love to hear from Jerry or Dale on this question.) Maybe if we had an answer for this question it would end this type of controversy.

:(

[JaniceB]

I want to end with a question: Is this site only for Christians, or is it big enough to welcome spiritual abuse victims regardless of their current religious beliefs or lack thereof?

I vote for everyone who has experienced spiritual abuse. That said, anyone who logs on to this site would be wise to keep in mind that it's primarily used by Christians. Some may not think we're Christians--especially in my case--but I say if someone calls himself or herself a Christian it's not my business to say otherwise.

I've been through the whole spectrum myself and have doubts aplenty so I can't see turning anyone away. I know that in my healing I've been touchy at times and gotten my feelings hurt when no one was attacking so I guess that could be true of others. It's part of the process at least for me.

We might also keep in mind that our only communications with each other are with written word and maybe pictures and symbols. We don't have facial expressions or tones of voice to help us interpret what another is trying to say so it's easy to misinterpret. That coupled with residual shame from the abuse makes it easy to take offense even if it wasn't intended--even when something very positive was intended.

[Lvanett]

I agree with Janice. We should bear in mind this forum is part of a site called Christianrecovery. I'm not against non-Christians coming here, but I think that needs to be pointed out, so if a non-Christian is offended they at least knew that the site they were visiting might have a few Christians.

[Voyager]

I agree with Janice. We should bear in mind this forum is part of a site called Christianrecovery. I'm not against non-Christians coming here, but I think that needs to be pointed out, so if a non-Christian is offended they at least knew that the site they were visiting might have a few Christians.

I know what you mean. I have often asked if this forum is for Christians only and I have never heard a yes or no, so that does leave some questions. Does anyone know if it is a requirement? If so, what happens if you are a Christian when you first come here and then decide after a few years that you're not sure anymore - are you then required to leave and find a non-Christian forum?

:confused:

[outcast]

I personally feel that the forum should be open to everyone. Even if the people who come here make us feel uncomfortable. I think we should recognize the fact that not everyone's path to personal recovery leads them back to christ. That should sadden us as christians, but we must face the fact that it really is reality whether we like it or not.

I had initiated a PM repoire with Ameen, and it was my message he came back to answer. I mention this because I am honored by that action. That he would come back to a place where he felt uncomfortable to answer the PM of a new friend.

I guess another reason I mention this is because he was/is a really good person who is simply seeking the truth. As I conveyed to him earlier, it saddens me sometimes that the things we hated in our abusers and that we seek to get over are sometimes obstacles in our own path to healing.

Please understand that I do not judge anyone for his choice to leave. I feel that it was his choice. But, I post this because the question was raised as to whether or not restrictions should be enforced concerning the beliefs of forum members. I raise the issue that if we allow non-christians, we must be able to handle the conflicts that must come with that situation.

I, as many other will I am sure, will miss Ameen's presence on the board. I hope we can glean something from this experience though, or it will be a waste of all our time.

[Gayle]

I agree with Janice. We should bear in mind this forum is part of a site called Christianrecovery. I'm not against non-Christians coming here, but I think that needs to be pointed out, so if a non-Christian is offended they at least knew that the site they were visiting might have a few Christians.

I don't think that was the issue in question here - Ameen was well aware there were Christians here. After he clearly explained where he was coming from, he was welcomed and given the impression he was accepted for how/who he is. I suppose it would have been kinder to say what was really thought right from the beginning - after all he was clear and honest with us. It would have only been fair.

We can not complacently excuse our own words and behaviors simply because someone is not on the same track we are - including atheist. Our own healing is never just about how safe we can make it just for us or our kind. If we believe that our own "healing" can come at the expense of anothers' emotional/mental well being, thinking our truth or nothing - if they can't handle it too bad, then we are no more healed than they are.

Something about this situation is eerily enlightening - when Christians show their true colors we learn which ones are safe - or not. I experienced that over and over in my situations, from Christian to Christian, church to church, friend to "friend", family member to family member. Personally trusting other Christians has over many years become very difficult for me even as a christian. From reading Ameen's posts, my experiences of spiritual abuse are very similar as might be for many here. It is so obvious how spiritual abuse affects each person differently. Some, like myself, wonder if we will ever have a security with other Christians again. That is what, in my mind, is what this was about. Ameen expressed his desire to learn how to be with Christians, even though he is atheist, trying to make his own threads as non-threatening as possible and being clear about which things caused great anxiety for him hoping he could be spared those kind of situations. Then when he restated that request it seems it was taken, by others, as a rejection because he set healthy boundaries in hope he could continue to function here. He took much time trying to be clear about his hopes and extending compassion to others here. It was not a reflection on the person posting to him, etc. As I understand, it was Ameen saying - please don't do this, it triggers me, it hurts, it causes great anxiety. A healing environment would certainly respect that - christian or non christian - but one would think especially Christian. Simply because it is the Christ-like thing to do. Trying to "make" someone see "the truth" as I see it is not Christ-like.

Ameen might be gone but it still matters. Gayle

[Voyager]

Ameen might be gone but it still matters.

I agree. When you think about it, why do people come here? They come here to find healing and recovery from Christians and other religious people who have abused them. They've been shamed, manipulated, rejected, and condemned to hell. If this is truly a place for people to recover from that type of behavior, why on earth would we want to perpetuate it?

Should we tell people, "You're not welcome here because you are not a good Christian based on my religious standards", or rather, should we tell them "You have been abused and rejected for what you believe or don't believe, and that won't happen to you here." Should we allow people to find their own path to healing and recovery, or do we reject and condemn them when they deviate from the direction we think they should go in?

When someone tells a KKK member that their beliefs and practices are abusive, is the KKK member justified by replying, "You have no right to attack my beliefs!"? Any organization that uses shame, ridicule, condemnation, and manipulation is an abusive group - period. There is no way to justify it, regardless if it is in the Bible or not. Telling the KKK member they are wrong for their bigotry does not put you on the same level as them. Likewise, telling someone they are wrong for attacking you with the Bible does not make you a Judas. It just means that you don't want to be spiritually abused anymore.

I was forced off this forum over a year ago when I fought back against a barrage of condemning attacks on my belief system. One day I came back here to see what was going on and I saw Ameen receiving understanding and compassion from forum members. I thought to myself, if they will accept Ameen, maybe I could come back too? For the most part everyone has warmly welcomed me back. But I know there are a few here who hate me, and that's okay. I am not here to work for their approval. I am just here to heal myself and to support others who are healing. I could care less what your religious beliefs are.

I think there is hope for this forum, even though it has had its share of implosions over the years. One thing that was hard for me to accept was the unwillingness of the moderators to break up fights on the forum. These fights have always been focused on religious control of the forum. The Bible fundamentalists feel like they own the forum because it is on the domain christianrecovery.com, and the people who don't want religiion forced down their throat have always fought back against this attempted religious domination.

After dealing with this for several years I got upset and fought back against it, which resulted in my getting banned about a year or so ago. I could have come back sooner but instead I teamed up with a few likeminded people and built a forum that doesn't allow people to spiritually condemn and dominate other forum members. However, I still have a fondness for this forum in my heart and I feel like it is now safe for me to post here again. If those who want to rule this place with a heavy authoritarian hand condemn me for it, then that is their issue - not mine. I'm not going to get in a mudslinging contest over it again with them.

I have found that when we stop trying to dominate the spiritual lives of others, we are then free to find healing and recovery. But as long as we feel like someone else has to change before we can be happy, we are only fooling ourselves.

:cool:

[Voyager]

If I may, let me digress a little. How many times have we seen this type of classic forum post exchange?:

Poster #1: "Since I got away from my abusive church, my legalistic belief system is beginning to unravel. For example, I no longer feel the need to condemn gay people to hell, or to stick my nose in other people's business. I also don't see any need to go to church anymore."

Poster #2: "God said in Leviticus 18:22 that gays are an abomination to Him. Also, the Bible commands us in Hebrews 10:25 to not forsake the assembling of ourselves together. As for me and my house we are not going to rebel against God."

Poster #1: "Look, I know the Bible because I have read it from cover to cover five times. I was in an abusive church for 10 years that shamed and manipulated me to obey the Bible. I don't need you to preach at me and condemn me for my beliefs."

Poster #2: "This is a Christian forum, and I am going to practice my Christianity here. Who are you to bash my Christian beliefs? I am not going to back down from my belief in the Bible as being the inerrant Word of God to make you happy."

Poster #1: "I was abused by Christians, and I was a very loyal Christian for many years. But now I need to be in a safe place to heal, away from Christians who are going to beat me up with the Bible. Please don't condemn me anymore."

Poster #2: "Well don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. You need to just get over it and move on. God has no tolerance for sin. I will not sit here and support the work of the devil."

Poster #1: "I am not involved in the work of the devil. I just don't care if people obey the Bible or not anymore. I feel like my whole life has been destroyed and I don't even know which way to turn. I'm not sure if I even believe in the Bible now. I don't know what I believe, and I don't think it's right to condemn people who don't follow the Bible."

Poster #2: "Well, I can tell you that if you turn away from God that Satan will destroy you. 1 John 3:8 says that he that committeth sin is of the devil. I am getting the feeling that this forum is being over-run with godless heathens, and I don't like it. I am not backing down from my Christian beliefs. If you don't like it here, go find a non-Christian forum!"

I cannot tell you how many times I have witnessed threads like this one here over the years, and I have even been involved in them myself in the Poster #1's shoes. I wonder if this forum will ever get away from threads like this? It sure would help bring about a lot of healing if it did. I cannot remember one of them that ever helped anyone heal or recover from spiritual abuse. Can you?

:cool:

[Willow]

I dunno... I might be wrong... but I've come to a place where I am able to applaud someone's recovery even if it excludes belief in God. I think AA did that for me.

[Elisabeth]

If I may, let me digress a little. How many times have we seen this type of classic forum post exchange?:



I cannot tell you how many times I have witnessed threads like this one here over the years, and I have even been involved in them myself in the Poster #1's shoes. I wonder if this forum will ever get away from threads like this? It sure would help bring about a lot of healing if it did. I cannot remember one of them that ever helped anyone heal or recover from spiritual abuse. Can you?

:cool:


I have seen post exchanges that run along those lines, and it ain't right!!! :(

[JaniceB]

Does anyone know if it is a requirement? If so, what happens if you are a Christian when you first come here and then decide after a few years that you're not sure anymore - are you then required to leave and find a non-Christian forum?

I sure hope not because I could be in trouble down the road! I hope it stays open to anyone regardless of their decisions or struggles and that we all try to keep the healthiest perspective we can on the more difficult discussions. Personally, I try to just blow them off. I don't have to get involved in every thread that goes up.

[riverdove]

In the light of the current tension and discussion in this forum, I really don't know what to say and I don't want to say anything that will make things worse. I am for one who have believed and still do believe in the inerrancy of God's Word and cling to every theology that is Christ centered, yet I am at a stage where I am beginning to think and process the Christian truth differently ..... I may not have jarring sin(s) as some of the people in the street do, but it doesn't make me be safer with God. My daughter told me one day that she didn't like the homeless people in the street because they're dangerous. She might be right .... they often smell and are very drunk or drugged. Actually, I've been going out into the street passing out blankets and food supplies to the homeless when the weather gets cold. I do that because I see myself as being poor in spirit and the people in the street help me connect to the common pain we all have in this world. Besides God is love .... and if my little action can even give the smallest hint of what love is all about, it's a sobering experience for me. Jesus was called a friend of sinners .... I don't know how He did that in every single situation and what kind of response He received from those who He had befriended, but I surely won't forget His encounter with the woman caught in adultery. I'm reminded once again to look inward into my own brokeness, so I'm bringing this thread back up. It's just a touching song to help encourage all of us here in this forum in this very award and difficult moment .... I want to thank many of you who post regularly and who bring many helpful information into this forum to help so many people. For this, I'm personally very thankful ... continue to do what you're doing and take care.

Here's the link to the song ... it has a lot of meaning to me.

http://www.christianrecovery.com/vb/showthread.php?t=8675

[riverdove]

Just want to add something I've written earlier:

..... I may not have jarring sin(s) as some of the people in the street do, but it doesn't make me be safer with God or lesser of a sinner. (the underscored words were missed out in my earlier post).

[leelees]

ive popped back briefly and am suprised at the thread...
to quote what armeen said earlier (page 4)
"I give up"

well thanks, that makes me feel great.....

how is this place helping anymore?

when i first joined the way the threads went was something along the lines of giving your story and everyone responding in a sympathetic/empathetic way and telling us how sorry they were and that they are here for people who just want to spout off and let go....now it appears to be the case that everyone is giving *their* opinion, what *they* think is right blah blah blah...atleast thats how it seems to me....

as far as i could see when i joined this place is somewhere that people who have been abused by churches can come and speak to like minded people ie/ other christians or church related scenarios...perhaps its my narrow mindedness but i thought this was a place for christians.....

and forgive me for my opinion but most of what armeen said i found to be a huge trigger...i wished for this place to encourage me in my christian walk not make me angry everytime i read the post....thats not what i come here for and this place is obviously not doing its job if people feel they have to leave!
...if you are not a christian why come to a place where there are christians and say im a homosexual none christian and then proceed to say why they dont believe in God (which in itself is not wrong to do) and that they believe it because of this that and the other...oh hash, im not doing a very good job at this....but i hope you get my drift...its a clash just waiting to happen and as someone else said there are so many other forums that people can go where they agree with them, whatever you say thats against christianity you know that christians will not agree with it so its in one way a losing battle....wether or not you are claiming you are not trying to be offensive...by its very nature it will be offensive and you cant do anything about it....its impossible to compromise with what you really believe in, and while its great not to be judgemental or whatever theres a line between accepting people as they are which im sure we all do and going along with someone just to make them happy....and im the type to say if something irritates me and armeen's posts irritated me and didnt help my recovery...i would like to make it clear that while i disagree with the gay thing im not against gay people and armeen as a person.
and while this may not be relevant or whatever and wether armeen meant to or not; it came across to *ME* that perhaps its was assumed we may be soft touches and that we would be made to compromise.......but then thats no doubt my supsicious un trusting nature....and if a forum thats meant to be helping us recover makes that untrustingness more of an issue then why the crap are we all here?

think im done....
i wish armeen well and perhaps this CHRISTIAN forum wasnt the best place to be for an athiestic gay non believer...i hope armeen finds the right place for him and that he recovers...it would be nice to hear how well hes doing with his recovery but as long as it doesnt contain offensive writing that we should perhaps look away from if we are easily triggered...why write it if you know it will upset and hurt and flare a reaction from...i found that bit to be a bear bait!

anyway, hope this forum returns to how it was before its too late!

xxx

[Gayle]

ive popped back briefly and am suprised at the thread...
to quote what armeen said earlier (page 4)
"I give up"

well thanks, that makes me feel great.....

how is this place helping anymore?

when i first joined the way the threads went was something along the lines of giving your story and everyone responding in a sympathetic/empathetic way and telling us how sorry they were and that they are here for people who just want to spout off and let go....now it appears to be the case that everyone is giving *their* opinion, what *they* think is right blah blah blah...atleast thats how it seems to me....

as far as i could see when i joined this place is somewhere that people who have been abused by churches can come and speak to like minded people ie/ other christians or church related scenarios...perhaps its my narrow mindedness but i thought this was a place for christians.....

and forgive me for my opinion but most of what armeen said i found to be a huge trigger...i wished for this place to encourage me in my christian walk not make me angry everytime i read the post....thats not what i come here for and this place is obviously not doing its job if people feel they have to leave!
...if you are not a christian why come to a place where there are christians and say im a homosexual none christian and then proceed to say why they dont believe in God (which in itself is not wrong to do) and that they believe it because of this that and the other...oh hash, im not doing a very good job at this....but i hope you get my drift...its a clash just waiting to happen and as someone else said there are so many other forums that people can go where they agree with them, whatever you say thats against christianity you know that christians will not agree with it so its in one way a losing battle....wether or not you are claiming you are not trying to be offensive...by its very nature it will be offensive and you cant do anything about it....its impossible to compromise with what you really believe in, and while its great not to be judgemental or whatever theres a line between accepting people as they are which im sure we all do and going along with someone just to make them happy....and im the type to say if something irritates me and armeen's posts irritated me and didnt help my recovery...i would like to make it clear that while i disagree with the gay thing im not against gay people and armeen as a person.
and while this may not be relevant or whatever and wether armeen meant to or not; it came across to *ME* that perhaps its was assumed we may be soft touches and that we would be made to compromise.......but then thats no doubt my supsicious un trusting nature....and if a forum thats meant to be helping us recover makes that untrustingness more of an issue then why the crap are we all here?

think im done....
i wish armeen well and perhaps this CHRISTIAN forum wasnt the best place to be for an athiestic gay non believer...i hope armeen finds the right place for him and that he recovers...it would be nice to hear how well hes doing with his recovery but as long as it doesnt contain offensive writing that we should perhaps look away from if we are easily triggered...why write it if you know it will upset and hurt and flare a reaction from...i found that bit to be a bear bait!

anyway, hope this forum returns to how it was before its too late!

xxx

Hi Leelees, I'm sorry you felt you needed to leave. I would like to encourage you to read some of the other views here. Something that has been said many times before is that if posts/posters trigger or annoy us we can put them on ignore and choose not to read them. There are others here who feel as you do and some who feel they have benefited from Ameen's posts. Sincerely Gayle

[leelees]

yeah each to their own i guess, im not so up on technology so i have no idea how to do that ignor stuff...no one should feel that have to block any of the threads tho!

[Gayle]

yeah each to their own i guess, im not so up on technology so i have no idea how to do that ignor stuff...no one should feel that have to block any of the threads tho!

Just a thought, I see my recovery as my responsibility. If I can't handle what someone else posts then I need to decide if I'd rather not read their posts or learn how to read their posts in a way that doesn't affect me so much. That way I'm not blaming others for my inabilities. There are posts that I choose not to read because sometimes its way too much information for me, I might feel triggered, pressed for time...whatever. But its up to me.

If you block a poster it doesn't mean you can't read their stuff - its a reminder that you were hesitant to read and you can decide if you feel better equipped to do so at a later time.

To put a poster on ignore, click on your own name.
On the right hand click on 'Edit Your Friends List.'
On left hand side under 'Settings and Options,' click on Edit Ignore List.
In the Ignore List box type in any nics that you wish to ignore.

Remember you still have the option of reading the posts if you choose. Not sure if you have to undo the ignore in order to post if you choose to respond. Hope this helps.... Gayle