Openly gay atheist looking to understand the way he was abused when he was Christian

[Ameen]

Hello.

I will try to keep this, my first post, relatively short, although I must warn you that I am a long-winded person whose editor is forever telling him to shorten his pieces.

If you've opened this message, you must be wondering why on earth an atheist has posted on a Christian board. That is, of course, a valid question.

This is behavior therapy for me, one of many steps in my attempt to normalize the way I deal with Christians. Although I interact with Christians in my extended family (where I am the only atheist) and at work, I have a very hard time trusting them (or even taking them seriously) because of the abusive manner in which many, many Christians have always thrust their agendas on me.

I had sent a feeler letter to someone named Jeff--apparently a head honcho on this board--to see if this would be a good place for me, but no one responded. For this reason I will reprint the letter I sent him after a couple of explanatory notes.

The notes:

1. I am not here to debate whether or not God exists or whether or not atheism is superior to Christianity. You are Christians. I am an atheist. I think each of us knows where the other stands. If someone WANTS to debate me, I will indulge the person--but please be aware that I do not wish to be thrown off the board. As far as I am concerned, you have every right to say that God exists just as I have every right to say that she does not.

2. I am a native New Yorker who writes in a New York style: sarcastic, sharp, and right to the point. Beating around the bush and being subtle are not my strong points. My style works for me: As an academic I must publish, and I have a book plus several articles out. I am also working on a second book. Further, I teach my graduate students how to write more authentically. I will gladly tone my voice down here (not an easy task, that!), but I cannot change it completely and still remain true to the experiences with which I wish to come to terms.

3. In addition, I have no idea how to address Christians outside my family or classroom (where I am polite even when I do not wish to be). In the past, I was polite and respectful to all, and many Christians took that as a sign of weakness, meaning they could continue to abuse me in their "righteous anger." When I learned to mimic the sanctimoniousness and condescension with which I was addressed, Christians were highly offended--but they left me alone and stopped preaching. I am afraid to be too polite here for this reason, as I have learned that my emotional survival depends on my being aggressive in dealing with Christians. I do not think that is the right tone on a board like this, though. I may not get the tone right in my first post--or my first ten--so please have patience.

4. I definitely used a holier than thou tone in my letter to this Jeff since I do not know him. (Again, I copied the tone with which I am usually addressed.) You will read that letter in a minute.

5. I consider myself an atheist Christian, which is why I feel I have the right to be on this board. I am Christian by default. If I died tomorrow, my family would have a Christian service and burial even though I have made it clear that my reusable body parts are to be donated to medical patients who need them while the rest of my remains are to given to a medical program. (I like the idea of my skeleton hanging in a classroom, and I see no reason for putting my rotting corpse in the ground and thus wasting it. I am environmentally friendly and believe in recycling.)

In addition, my culture is Christian since I was born and raised in the United States, the books I read--even those by atheists--are largely influenced by Christian ideas, the days I have off from work are Christian holidays... Just as Judaism is a culture and a means by which an people identify themselves, so is Christianity. I know Jewish atheists who consider themselves Jewish. Why, then, can't I call myself a Christian even though I don't believe in God?

Finally, I remain a spiritual person since the goal of my life is to do what I can to make life better for others (in addition to doing things that enable me to enjoy my life to the fullest). I am a university professor who gives far more of his time than he is paid for and a volunteer who works with mentally-ill youth. I also have responsibilities in helping my parents and sister since I am the one with good health. I enjoy music, art, and literature from before I was born, and I look on the beauty of nature with the wonder of a Wiccan. I can spend hours in a museum, deeply moved by the art I see. (But not modern art/impressionism/cubism/what have you.) There is simply no deity in the equation, though, and when I die no Heaven and no Hell will be waiting. Actually, nothing will be waiting, and I will cease to exist. But until then, there is so much beauty to enjoy--and so many people whose lives I can affect.

O.K., you should have a good sense of who I am by now.

Here is the letter (with a few typos corrected):

--------------------------------------------

Hello.

Let me start by asking you to please change your anti-spam question ("Is fire hot or cold?"). Although fire is hot in reality, I have read science fiction and fantasy novels where it is cold. Your server accepts only one answer, but there is more than one possible answer.

Anyway... I am not a member of your board, but I am looking for a place where I can talk about the abuse I suffered as a member of an extremist religious cult (the late Herbert W. Armstrong's Worldwide Church of God) and mainstream religion. The type of religion I endured was actually similar to what the Puritans practiced, and my self-esteem was battered before I was even a teenager. I still carry the emotional scars carved into my mind by zealots. I was also never allowed to think for myself, something I make a point of doing today and always teach my students to do.

Although I am a professor of English as a Second Language and not psychology, I carry out volunteer work with young people (teens and twentysomethings) who (like me) have OCD (obsessive-compulsive disorder) or OCD paired with bipolar disorder, ADHD, borderline personality disorder... This is something I would be happy to write about here in exchange for talking about issues I need to explore. (I am not in therapy, but I was years ago for OCD and issues concerning abuse. I draw on my experiences in working with others.)

The reason I need to ask about joining first... I have already been thrown off a Christian board, as I am an openly gay atheist. Basically, even on boards set up for religious abuse Christians tell me that I must "become heterosexual" (which is physiologically impossible) or remain celibate (which is psychologically harmful). They are no different from the homophobes who ran both of my former churches.

My being an athiest makes them distrust everything I say; indeed, some refused to read any thread I had commented in--even if I had merely agreed with what others had written.

I don't understand why one must be both heterosexual and Christian to get help from the pain of abuse. We hurt too.

It takes a lot for me to recapture aspects of my life that religion robbed me of. For example, I have an excellent voice and natural pitch, and I sang until I was in my mid-twenties. I then stopped when my church decided that I had "chosen" (ha!) to be gay and could no longer be part of it. I am now 43, and I did not start singing again until two years ago; it felt too much like being in church again--and that was very, very painful. After training for a year and a half, I started singing in concerts again six months ago. While I sing strictly non-religious music, I made an exception for a heterosexual Christian friend and sang backup Gospel for her. That took a lot out of me, as I never thought the word "Jesus" would ever come out of my mouth without an expletive in the same sentence. I sang backup for her because I saw no reason not to. This friend had never done me any wrong and had only ever shown me kindness. If I had told her no, I would have been punishing her for something she never did.

There are so many other things I need to reclaim, though. For example, Christmas, my birthday, Easter, and so on still make me ill, and I don't celebrate them. (I'll go to my parents' house on Christmas out of respect, but I will leave as soon as I can. The day creeps me out.) The Evangelists who hound me make me more than ill and do far more than creep me out.

I have gotten a lot of great advice on several atheist boards, but now I need to talk to real Christians who have been equally wounded as a form of behavior therapy.

--------------------------------------------

Finally, you can see me in the picure below. (Yes, like my parents, I look younger than my age.)

In case anyone is ready to pounce on me, I want you to see that I am a real person and remember that I have real feelings and am here to help myself recover. I intend to hold myself back from mocking any of you even if I find your ideas odd, but in return I am not here to be belittled, mocked, or preached to. Kindness will be met with the same. So will cruelty.

"Ameen" is actually my middle name, but I use it because my first and last name are Anglicized and thus very boring. In addition, I was named after my Lebanese great-grandfather, and since he was a bit of an oddball (like me), I use "Ameen" with pride.

In case you are wondering... I am all Lebanese Arab on my mother's side and Sicilian and Swedish on my father's. My father was born in the U.S., but my mother is an immigrant who speaks English as her second language.

In reason,

Ameen

http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a220/vluku/Scanned%20Pre-Digital%20Family-Friends-Events/04_15_4.jpg

[Willow]

Hi Ameen,

Welcome aboard! I don't have any problem with gays or atheists, although I am neither.

Staying focused on the topic of spiritual abuse and how it's affected me keeps me fairly safe here. Doctrinal and political discussions have gone south for me several times. Others seem to be able to have great discussions on these topics though. I hope this is a good place for you.

Me? I have no idea what I am... I might be a christian and I might not... depending on what your definition of a christian is. I have a predominantly christian world view and when I pray it's with a christian background and understanding of God. I am certainly not a debater. I have no desire to control anyone's belief systems and hate having anyone try to control mine.

Cheers!
Willow

[Spiny Norman]

Hello Ameen, welcome to the board.

I'm not 100% sure what you mean by "normalising" your interactions with Christians, but I think I have a pretty good idea of it. Perhaps you are describing people's propensity to pass judgement on others? This is something that all people do ... not just Christians, although some (many?) Christians do seem to have a real talent in that area.

A discussion about what characteristics truly identify a Christian (and what actions or beliefs would disqualify a person from being a Christian) might take us forever and reach no conclusion that everyone can agree on. I suspect that this is because people make God in their image. Everyone has a different idea about what they see.

You seem to have arrived at a view that being a Christian is predominantly a cultural construct. i.e. if the USA is comprised predominantly of people who claim to be Christians, then the USA is a Christian country. I can understand that perspective, even if I disagree with it, because I don't view Christianity as something that can be played as a numbers game, nor do I believe that non-human objects (which includes things such as countries which are creations of the human mind) can rightly be classed as Christian. If I say "I live in a Christian home", that might say something useful about the kind of behaviours that are expected in my home, but it surely doesn't mean that my home is saved and will go to heaven to be with Jesus ... if you see what I mean.

Happy to try to dialog with you if you have specific questions, however you will probably find that many here, having being burned by mainstream or cult Christianity, will run a mile from a debate and would prefer to mostly leave the questions open so that you can find your own way through the maze. I count myself in that category too I think.

[Ameen]

I held my breath as I checked this thread, as I am used to being banned outright or being told to find Jesus, save my soul, avoid the fires of hell by repenting my heterosexuality... Or I am called words that even I, with my legendary foul mouth, would not use at the drop of a hat as too many Christians do.

I am not an optimistic person by nature, but I will keep my fingers (and toes and tongue) crossed that people will continue to address me in a civil manner. I really just want to understand spirtual abuse from a Christian perspective, as I already understand it from an atheist perspective and a psychological perspective. More on that in my reply to Spiny Norman.

@ Spiny Norman: I don't know how much you know about OCD, and I'd be happy to explain at length...

Here is the very, very short version about how OCD affects me: My worst OCD issues are scrupulosity (religious OCD--quickie Wikipedia definition here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scrupulosity ) and, because I was in a doomsday cult that emphasized God's wrath and the end of the world, issues concerning natural disasters. I came very close to suicide more than once. Only my family responsibilities, my work responsibilities, and my love of science fiction and other "worldly pleasures" kept me going.

OCD is partly biological and party environmental. While negative experiences with Christianity did not cause my OCD, they shaped and exacerbated it. Depending on one's environment, folks with OCD can go through life with anything from minor issues to major issues that make it impossible for a person to function. Although I never stopped functioning, my experiences with Christianity insured that I would have to deal with horrors for the rest of my life. (Anyone who has any kind of anxiety-based disorder knows what I am talking about.)

Thanks to my medication, my having learned a lot in behavior therapy, and my being vigilant, I have my OCD largely under control. However, there is no cure for OCD; one just learns how not to be its slave.

In my volunteer work I have to deal with a lot of OCD Christians and talk to them through liberal Christianity instead of atheism; I am surprised by how uncomfortable the whole shabang still makes me--but, since it is an OCD issue, I am also not surprised. When I start thinking OCD style or feeling urges to carry out compulsions as a way of negating terrors about natural disasters and religious fears, I know that I need to do new proactive exposures to normalize the way I deal with my ailment.

If an OCD person could just stop the obsessions, compulsions, black and white thinking, high anxiety, depression and so on in a snap, OCD would not be the major problem it is for so many of us. (Since this is a Christian board... From a theological point of view, only a direct act of God/miracle can get rid of OCD completely, and even devout Christians with it need behavior therapy and, if necessary, medication--something many theologians are aware of and write about. It is a medical issue.)

Your other point: We can certainly agree to disagree, a practice I find healthy. But I do agree with you that people make God in their image.

Yes, I see Christianity as a cultural construct--but, honestly, I see everything as a cultural construct. Are love and patriotism exactly the same in 21st-century America as they were, say, in ancient Sparta, at the height of the Songhai Empire, in Louis XVI's France, or under Suleiman the Magnificent? And even in 21st-century America, are they the same to a 16-year-old in Los Angeles, a veteran of the war in Iraq, a pacifist, a Mormon who votes Republican, an Episcopalian who votes Democrat, a 90-year-old Navajo, an immigrant from Vietnam, Maya Angelou, Brad Pitt, Ron Reagan Jr., Colin Powell, Jane Fonda, Newt Gingrich, Justin Timberlake, Amy Tan...?

Like all constructs, love and patriotism have been remolded and reworked countless times to fit the needs of their adherents, and even in the same society and same era you will find different models for different socio-economic groups, different age groups, idealists, purists, poets, intellectuals...

Similarly, there are many Christian constructs: muscular Christianity, gooey/drippy Christianity, fire and brimstone Christianity, 21st-century liberal Christianity, "God hates fags" (Fred Phelps), the ideas agreed upon in individual Quaker meeting houses, the ideas expressed in Christian rock and then reinterpeted by Christian youth... And each of these major constructs has countless subconstructs.

On that note, here's my tie-in to Willow...

@ Willow: It is easiest to say that a Christian believes in Jesus as his or her savior. Period. A Christian's other beliefs stem from how he or she interprets that relationship and what he or she feels is required of him or her.

Of course, this is as thorny as my construct model, for it allows the argument that Christianity is dangerous since the Nazis were not only Christian but had the Church's blessing. Many Christians would say that they were not "real" Christians, but I beg to differ since they, like southern slaveowners and the Spanish Inquisitors, considered Christ their savior and felt they were doing his work.

This is the argument that gets me in so much trouble with Christians, although, logically speaking, there is no reason for them to be offended since I maintain that each Christian shapes Jesus in his or her own image, and not all Christians are "good" people. (Ideally, Jesus should be shaping people in His image, but what we see around us is the opposite.)

Why do I think I should not get in trouble for this argument? I think there are very good people who are followers of Jesus (or members of any religion) just as there are very bad people who are followers of Jesus (or members of any religion). There are also very good people who are atheists and very bad people who are atheists.

"Good" and "bad" are cultural constructs, of course, and a more humanistic way of looking at people is to say that all people do some things that are considered good and some things that are considered bad. With this in mind, I can cite Nazis (who also did some things considered good), or I can cite the Irish nuns in Ethiopia or Somalia who bathe and feed the poor (even though, as human beings, they also do things considered bad). They are all Christians.

I can also cite atheists like Stalin or atheists who set up women's shelters and soup kitchens. They are all atheists.

I just don't see religion or atheism as having any effect on a person unless it is a negative effect from extremist religion (like my former cult) or extremist atheism. In that case, extremist religion or extremist atheism creates monsters, and those are the monsters--Christian monsters in my case--who abused me.

Barring the creation of monsters, I believe people are who they are based on nature (biology) and nurture (environment), not religion or atheism (both of which are philosophy). Personal philosophy/religion/lack of religion may have some limited effect--icing on the cake, as it were--but I don't see them in any sort of primary role.

This is also how I, an atheist, can say that some Christians are very good people.

[Hope 98]

Hello Ameen,

I like your style. Welcome to the board.

As you say you were abused in a Christian environment, you are likely to find support and comfort here.

[FreeinJesus]

Hello Ameen!

Welcome to the forum.

First, I want to express how bad I feel for you. I have done some research & I can say that HWA/WCoG are very controlling & abusive, IMHO. Wcog is very similar to the group I escaped from. I didn't do Christmas, Easter or Halloween for 19 years..not to mention the religious "jots & tittles". However, we didn't have those "holydays" but there was the mandatory "church picnic"...oh shit! I chuckle thinking a damn picnic is mandatory. I guess that's what controllers do.....I have a feeling I could relate to you on some issues.

I was raised a somewhat liberal catholic, though "morally" my mom tried to be "strict"..."no drugs, no booze, no sex".
We usually broke at least 2 of those rules when we'd go out!!:o I was never damaged by the Catholics, however, obviously some people have been. I was greatly damaged by "southern bible religion". The guy was nothing more than a Baptist pope...no accountability for the leader, no freedom to leave the group without being judged & being told that God is really pissed at you & if you don't get "judged" here, it'll be waiting for you on the other side.:(:(
Yeah....that type of religion HURTS BAD.

I can tell that you have been hurt bad as well. I have read the X-Wcog blogs, websites & I know all too well what they are expressing cause I went through something very similar.

Ameen, honestly, I don't really know what I believe. I guess I believe in Jesus because I was raised w/ that & the cult I was in believed it, but at the same time, I know what you mean, mankind has done a hell of a lot of damage in "Jesus' name" or "God's name". I used to struggle w/ religion, but now I don't because I just don't believe in "religion" at all. I don't believe in any book, but I have been raised w/ religion & I have some of the "old tapes" running through my brain that I'm still trying to detox from. My religion is "love your neighbor as yourself & love God". I have questioned everything I believed, I guess I haven't questioned 1 issue, that is the one of a "creator - God". I believe there is one, I don't KNOW there is...I thought I KNEW truth & it turned out to be lies, so I tell myself that I can't really KNOW much when it comes to spiritual things.

I think there are many self righteous "christians" out there...I think of the many cult churches...yeah, if "christendom" is anything like these bible-cults, things are pretty damn bad.:(:(

I hope in some way you can find healing Ameen. Have you ever checked out any of the Ex-WCoG sites?? They helped me a lot to read of other people's journeys. I don't really have many who can relate to our situation...1 lady who left doesn't even live in this state anymore & she wasn't in it that long....another person is nice enough, but I think the spouse is still in the "borg" mentally. Though the person left, they haven't said two words to us & they've been out for a few months now.:confused: what I"m trying to say is that there is no EX-site for the group we were abused in. It's small compared to other controlling organizations.
So I end up at sites where the abuse was similar & your EX group is one of them.

Well, I've blathered enough for now. I hope you continue to heal. the damage done IMHO goes deep when it happens in "God's name". :( I wish you peace & I hope someday you will get the programming out of your head. I don't believe it's an easy task.

Take Care!
Fij

[Spiny Norman]

Ameen, thanks for your reply. I think you and I are probably quite alike in some aspects of our personality type. I have some borderline OCD tendancies myself, mostly revolving around the counting of number sequences or patterns ... e.g. when sitting watching TV I'll sometime be found to be tapping my foot in certain sequences, such as:

12345,1234,123,12,1,1234,123,12,1,123,12,1,12,1,1 ... and repeat in reverse sequence ... or

1221,2112,2112,1221 ... and repeat ... etc

I've never tried to work out whether some of these things spill over into other areas of my life, but its possible I suppose. Anyway, FWIW, I have some level of understanding of the OCD state of mind.

I also learned a very valuable lesson recently which showed me just how tenuous my own grip on "reality" truly is, when some genuinely surprising and shocking circumstances caused me to briefly doubt whether I'd lost my mind. For about 24 hours it was a rather terrifying proposition.

Regarding Christianity as a cultural construct: we could probably have an extended discussion here about universalism, nominalism and tropes:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trope_(philosophy)

I tend to the view that any specific cultural expression of Christianity does not define Christianity itself, although it may be representative of it to a greater or lesser degree ... just as a red rose can rightly be called "red" but does not define redness, as it is just one instance of redness.

The same argument can be put forward in response to your comments about 'love' in different cultural settings. Yes, different cultures and different times have differing views about love ... but I don't see that this necessarily says anything very helpful. We humans, who define/make God in our own image, also define/make our image of love in the same way.

So our 21st century, Western capitalist society view of love includes heterosexual and homosexual forms of sexual love (eros). As you point out, just a cultural construct. But what IS love itself? What truly defines love? Where does the concept come from? Is love a transcendent non-material entity? These are the really interesting questions, and I'd guess you've thought about them in more depth than I have.

I think love itself is a non-material, transcendent thing. Thus, whilst you and I can talk about it in some sense common to our culture, at the core we cannot find common ground, as you and I think love is two quite different things! If you're an atheist, then almost certainly you are a committed materialist, so your idea of what love is will not match to mine.

Anyway, I could wax lyrical until the cows come home, but its probably not profitable to do so. But I wish you well in your search for understanding.

[Jerry]

Dear Ameen,,,,
First,,,Thank you for being so up front about yourself.This board is about Spiritual Abuse.......Judging is something that abusive Christians do very well,,,,,so we don't judge here.Your sexual orientation beyond what you choose to relate to us is informational but irrelevant us.We are Christians who have been abused so the abuse you received from so called Christians causes us concern.Be assured that you are welcome here,I think we can help,if we can't we need more work understanding the word "Grace" ....Will you fit in???? Well lets try it and see.My money is on the affirmative ;)

Love Jerry

P.S. Read the C,S.Lewis quote in the sticky thread at the top of the abuse board.We try to follow that spirit here .

[Willow]

Here is the very, very short version about how OCD affects me: My worst OCD issues are scrupulosity (religious OCD--quickie Wikipedia definition here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scrupulosity ) ...

WOW! Thank you for This! I also have been DXed OCD. Never quite understood why, but knew it had something to do with an extremely overactive conscience and religious activity to offset anxiety. Anyway... this gives me something to take to counseling and discuss in more detail. I was beginning to get some relief from it until I joined AA. That seems to have re-awakened my propensity to drive myself crazy with morality.
On that note, here's my tie-in to Willow...

@ Willow: It is easiest to say that a Christian believes in Jesus as his or her savior. Period. A Christian's other beliefs stem from how he or she interprets that relationship and what he or she feels is required of him or her.

That's a pretty good basic premise. I'm in such spiritual transition... and have been for the past several years... that I don't even know what I am or what I believe... other than I do believe in a personal God who is also the creator of the universe. The rest of it... well... I just wasn't there when all the Jesus stuff went down. I still use his name when I pray... the child-like faith in me says... "Jesus Loves Me, This I know" and finds great comfort in it. The wounded skeptic says... "I can't deal with trying to figure all this stuff out so I'm gonna just listen and keep it as simple as I possibly can."

[Reg]

Welcome Ameen,

Not exactly sure where to start. Let's begin here......

Anyway... I am not a member of your board, but I am looking for a place where I can talk about the abuse I suffered as a member of an extremist religious cult (the late Herbert W. Armstrong's Worldwide Church of God) and mainstream religion.

This is an area I can relate to. I was a member for 29 years so I know where you're coming from.

You say you have lived in New York City all your life. I have friends in New York who where members of the WCG. Maybe you know some of them. Do the names Carol K., Melaina from Astoria, Julie V., Rosemarie F., Cathy, Mary M. from Brooklyn sound familiar?

Quick question. How many years where you in the WCG and when did you exit?

Like FIJ said, there are some X-WCG sites that have helped her. Here is one that I think is the best in this regard......

Exit & Support Network
http://www.exitsupportnetwork.com/

I don't want to get into discussing about them here. This isn't the place for that. If you want to discuss some of that you can PM me. But I do understand how they have affected me and many of my former friends. Like you, some question their Christianity and perhaps are now atheists. Many don't go to any church anymore. I exited in 1997 and for the most part we have lost contact with most. Most have gone their own way. I still have a few friends from the WCG that are still Christians. Being able to talk about our past experiences has been a great help to me and them. I don't talk about that with those who attend the present church I go to. Furthermore, this place has been the most helpful for me. I didn't realize how similar my experiences were with many here. I thought I was in the exclusive only true church. We had the Truth and The Apostle leading us. All others where deceived. How could anyone else understand where I was coming from? Well, I found out the WCG wasn't so exclusive and the only true church. Controlling abusive toxic churches exist throughout the Christian landscape. Narcisstic, sociopathic types can be found in any church.

If you can find the time, you may want to read some of the threads I started here.

Stages in Recovery From Spiritual Abuse
http://www.christianrecovery.com/vb/showthread.php?t=8694

Rules of the Past
http://www.christianrecovery.com/vb/showthread.php?t=8615

Who Am I?
http://www.christianrecovery.com/vb/showthread.php?t=5010&page=2

Father Images In Cults
http://www.christianrecovery.com/vb/showthread.php?t=7546&page=2

Being Authentic
http://www.christianrecovery.com/vb/showthread.php?t=7582

Symptoms Of An Inability To Become An Adult
http://www.christianrecovery.com/vb/showthread.php?t=4341

You can check out some others you may be able to relate to.

BTW, I am somewhat familiar with OCD & Scrupulosity. I was in the leadership of a recovery program in our church called Celebrate Recovery for two years and moderated a small group. I have heard many of their stories and these areas came up. One of my friends in the church we both attend is bi-polar. He also has Scrupulosity tendencies although he would deny that.

Look forward to hearing more from you. I think you will find this place unlike some of the other Christian sites you visited before. Like Jerry said we are not the condemning judgemental type here. We do understand Grace, finally.

[Ameen]

Wow! I have a lot to respond to--and I will get to each of you.

First, though, let me address the issue of Scrupulosity and OCD since it is of special concern to Willow and others. I started a new thread and included a lot of links so that people who aren't interested in reading about a gay atheist may still benefit from it:

http://www.christianrecovery.com/vb/showthread.php?t=8709

@ SpinyNorman: I also included what OCD is and is not in that thread. I'll comment on the rest of your post later in this message. I want to comment in the order people posted so that I do not forget anyone.

@ Hope98: Thank you. I grinned when you wrote that you liked my style. I went from being a nearly friendless, chronically depressed nerd with undiagnosed OCD and a terrifying Christian religion to a highly respected professor whose students fight for seats in his classes. At 43 I do try to have style.

Also, given the life I have lead, I crave compliments and can be a bit of an attention whore. Well, more than a bit...

@ FreeinJesus: I hear you, and I am so sorry that you had those experiences. Whatever you believe is fine. You don't have to be anyone's mirror image.

I think we have a similar philosophy. Yours is "Love your neighbor as yourself and love God." Mine is "Love your neighbor as yourself and love planet Earth." That doesn't mean I always succeed in doing so--I don't--but I try my best to imporve as I tango, uh, walk through life.

Instead of searching for truth, I accept that truth is a cultural construct. It's no more real than anything else. Think how many Siddharthas and Candides gave up on high-sounding belief systems and simply let their gardens grow.

I have not checked out many ex-WWCOG sites. More on that in my comment to Reg.

In addition to being forbidden by religion to celebrate my birthday, Christmas, Easter, Halloween, and so on, I grew to hate these days apart from my religion. Those were the days I had to see my extended Christian family and be put down by them. I am lucky that I have always had a fairly good relationship with my parents and sister, but much of the rest of the family has always disliked me and was happy to let me know it. Today I am so straight looking and acting that fellow gays are surprised to learn I am gay--but back then I was femme. And fat. And a bookworm with university reading level in eighth grade. And a deep thinker even as a kid. I was everything the family hated, and they must have felt better about themselves when they made me miserable.

Just last August, my most recent birthday, my best friend wanted to take me out but I forbade it. The combination of bad religion, OCD, and my family's mockery make it hard for me to celebrate any day except Gay Pride Day. (But even that is marred by all the Christian protestors with their signs about fags in Hell. Good ol' Christian love at work. And people wonder why I'm an atheist...)

@ Spiny Norman: Wax lyrical as much as you wish. I certainly do!

I will look at your link and gladly get back to you. Right now I have already spent a lot of time putting together my OCD thread, and I still have to hop on my exercise bike while watching a House DVD before sleeping. Soon...

I would have done all that earlier, but I've been engrossed in The Egyptian by Mika Waltari, an incredible book in Finnish written while the Nazis and Russians were fighting in the author's country. This huge, delicious novel's setting is ancient Egypt's New Kingdom, but Waltari was also talking about his own century. (No, I don't read Finnish--although I wish I did. I'm reading the 1949 English translation.)

Does "reality" exist or is that also a construct?

You asked: "But what IS love itself? What truly defines love? Where does the concept come from? Is love a transcendent non-material entity?"

Simply put, love is a chemical reaction based on our evolutionary need to reproduce. American bluebirds and unicorns and angel wings are cultural constructs that come from Victorian culture and religion.

While I do believe that people who "love" each other feel empathy and are capable of self-sacrifice, I chalk that up to deep friendship. I cannot remember which French philosopher first said this, but it remains a French proverb: "Friendship is love without wings." I believe that friendship can be trusted while gooey love cannot. People can be monogamous with their mates and feel deeply for them all their lives, but that, I believe, is philia and not eros. Philia lasts; eros does not. Besides, the ancient Greeks rightfully feared eros, as it drove people mad. "Everything in moderation."

Mind you, I am a sexual person who enjoys his eros--and as a gay man I will fight anyone who denies me my right to engage in a physiological need with the same sex since it has proven psychological and medical benefits. That does not mean I sleep around, but I have not been a virgin since 1990.

When I settle down (I hope that is a "when" and not an "if"), it won't be simply because the guy is hot. It will be because we are compatible as partners, because we have the ability to care about each other, and because there is enough between us to keep us going when the can't-keep-my-hands-off-you phase fades.

What I call friendship and you might call love is about sharing a toilet, mopping up vomit, and counting to ten when your partner pushes your buttons. When you put up with all that and still want to be with the person, that is when the two of you are a match.

I am a romantic at heart and have no shame when tears well up, but I separate music, poetry, literature, and art--and gooey love--from life.

@ Jerry: Thank you for the kind words! It's a good quote--but I cannot say any more, as I have issues with C.S. Lewis but have already been too negative in parts of this post. I didn't come on here to complain every other paragraph, although that might come naturally to me if I allowed it. Rather, I know when to stop myself, and I am long past that point here.

@ Willow: Thank you, too. I hope you find my OCD thread useful.

@ Reg: In the mid-90s I tried to get involved with the ex-WWCOG movement, but there were too many abusive Christians even in its ranks. I had run-ins with Lin S. and Louise D. from the national organization, and the latter even informed me that "all atheist groups are cults." Not for me!

So, no, I am afraid I don't know the local ex-WWCOG folks. I don't go places where a gay atheist is not welcome. (And yes, there are gay atheists in the WWCOG movement; they must have thicker skin than I.)

Your other question... I could not formally join the WWCOG since I left my Presbyterian church (You know, "whore of Babylon and her daughters") in 1982 based on what I read in The Plain Truth. I was only 16, and the closest church was in Long Island. I did not have the money to travel.

In a sense, I was a group of one, although I wrote frequently to pastors in Pasadena for help and internalized all of Armstrong's nonsense. Part of me never left even though I am now an atheist, as I am still working on getting that crap out of my mind.

This may not make much sense, but please remember that I have Scrupulosity/OCD. A person with treated OCD would get it right away. I also got interested in Roy Masters' Foundation of Human Understanding. And then I got interested in a Born Again church...

People here talk about a kind, merciful God. I cannot even imagine it--not with Scrupulosity and the life I have lead. My atheism began as a defense mechanism, I admit, but I have studied it so deeply by now that I absolutely and scientifically believe there is no God. My motivations may have been wrong, but I stand by my results.

For my own behavior therapy, I try to erase the image of God as a nasty old white guy with a robe and beard who cackles maniacally as he smites people for their sins. (This is the mental image I still have.) Instead, I try to imagine God looking like Whoopi Goldberg, complete with those gorgeous dreads, John Lennon glasses, and smile. I adore Whoopi's smile, and if God exists and loves people, then that is the type of smile she would have.

Since I am appalled by Christianity's colonial record in Africa, Asia, the Mid-East, Latin America, the Caribbean... I don't want to imagine God as white or as a guy.

I will most certainly look at all of your threads and get back to you, but not tonight. It's 1 am and I still have to exercise! (Fortunately, I don't have to teach again until January.)

It is entirely possible for a bipolar person to suffer from Scrupulosity, as bipolar disorder and OCD can co-occur.

I look forward to talking to all of you in more detail!

In reason,

Ameen

[Willow]

[QUOTE=Ameen;64167
For my own behavior therapy, I try to erase the image of God as a nasty old white guy with a robe and beard who cackles maniacally as he smites people for their sins. (This is the mental image I still have.) Instead, I try to imagine God looking like Whoopi Goldberg, complete with those gorgeous dreads, John Lennon glasses, and smile. I adore Whoopi's smile, and if God exists and loves people, then that is the type of smile she would have. [/QUOTE]

Does this work for you? I have a hard time with this too... but I persist on claiming to believe in a loving, gentle and forgiving god who's ape-shit crazy about me. I think... if I say it often enough... maybe it will replace the base-ball bat God that I'm so pissed off at.

[Hope 98]

Does this work for you? I have a hard time with this too... but I persist on claiming to believe in a loving, gentle and forgiving god who's ape-shit crazy about me. I think... if I say it often enough... maybe it will replace the base-ball bat God that I'm so pissed off at.

I love the movie "Bruce Almighty"!

I was going to write that I imagine God as Morgan Freeman in that movie, as if I chose that image. The thing is that when I saw that movie, the character fit what I was developing in my own mind.

Whatever I've done must be working. I can't relate at all to the "smiteful" God concepts at all or listen to sermons designed to remind me of what we totally depraved worms really deserve from our mighty and holy god. It makes me angry that someone spreads such ignorant and unreasonable rumors about the God I've grown to love.

Um...don't want to argue - just sayin'

[Willow]

Jerry, Thanks for reopening this thread.

Ameen... I hope you can find the type of interaction here that is helpful. I'm not a typical christian and gotta tell you... All my adult life I have been friends with gay people who are stuck in conservative authoritarian churches... that is until I left the church 8 years ago. I am fully convinced by my past and current friendships with gays... male and female... that this is not a choice. This is the fabric of their being in the same way that heterosexual orientation is the fabric of my being.

Do you have any questions that might help direct us in the conversation that you most need from us? I am more of a deist than I am a christian... but I'll try to answer questions and help you get through this dilemma any way I can.

Many wishes for best health and happiness in the New Year.

Willow

[Ameen]

Thank you, Jerry, for reopening the thread!!!

In my last message in this thread (the in which I wrote about love sans wings and the ex-WWCOG movement), I promised to get back to two people's links; in addition, in the OCD thread I promised to get back to a third person's link but post here since the issue has nothing to do with OCD. Since I have the time now...

But first, let me make two corrections, after which I will respond to the three new posts in this thread and then get to the three people with links.

Corrections:

1. In my last post in this thread I wrote:

(And yes, there are gay atheists in the WWCOG movement; they must have thicker skin than I.)

That should be "...the ex-WWCOG movement..."

WWCOG = Worldwide Church of God, my former cult.

2. In the post I made in this thread before the last one, I wrote

I held my breath as I checked this thread, as I am used to being banned outright or being told to find Jesus, save my soul, avoid the fires of hell by repenting my heterosexuality...

That should be: "...my homosexuality..."

New posts in this thread:

@ Willow: Re-envisioning God as Whoopi Goldberg instead of a nasty old white guy hurling thunderbolts at those who transgress even the slightest works for me; I assume it would work for a Christian as well.

I am no expert on the human brain, but it would seem to me that changing one's mental image of God changes the cascading way thoughts about the Judeo-Christian deity emerge. If you have thought a thousand times about the nasty old white guy, then your thoughts would be used to a pattern and would make unconscious associations, I believe. No further spiritual growth would be possible (again, I believe) since everything would stem from the nasty old white guys' image and negative associations.

Give a God a cosmetic makeover, and you have to make new associations with her image and store them in different pathways. Your thoughts about God are then consciously reshaped.

Of course, you don't have to use Whoopi Goldberg as your model. You should re-imagine God as you choose.

Is there a biologist, an M.D., or a therapist on the board? What I have just written is how things appear to me, but I am waaaaaaaay out of my league and am just theorizing here. Someone who can explain the actual processes within the brain would be of immense help to Willow.

Your other post: Questions will come naturally as we converse, I suppose. I probably have hundreds...

@ Hope 98: I have not seen Bruce Almighty, so I cannot comment. Although Morgan Freeman is not white and (I presume) not nasty, he is still an older man with an air of authority. That image would not work for me--but it may well work for someone else.

My sister would agree with you. When I talk about my hate for the Judeo-Christian God and throw in several descriptive adjectives stemming from four letter words that I cannot print on this board, she reminds me that I am talking about the god we were taught about when we were young; she does not feel that is her God or her Jesus.

I suppose she was always a rebel just as I am, the only difference being that she held onto her religious beliefs. We were told never to have Catholic, Jewish, or Muslim friends, so naturally I had many Jewish and Catholic friends and her best friend then was Muslim. She and this woman are still close friends even in their late 30s.

I took that negative image of GOD with me when I joined my cult--which had an identical image of a celestial bastard. And now here I am at 43, still haunted by this image. Even though there is no one listening, sometimes it feels good to curse out "god" in a mock prayer. I have to get my fury out somehow.

I am glad for you, as I am glad for my sister and parents, that you have something to believe in that makes you feel good. Whether that deity exists is, to my mind, irrelevant. If this works for you and you do not use your belief to hurt others, more power to you!

The links I promised to get back to:

@ JaniceB: I like all the things you touch on in Tomato Blossoms. In reading the teaser for your book, I see that tomato plants that do not blossom will be quite a metaphor or allegory for your theme.

In particular, drug abuse (like alcohol abuse, anorexia, bulimia...) is an important issue that people need to know more about. It carries such a stigma when it should not. After all, look at how many people in our society overeat or have other 'acceptable' addictions. Are these really that different from drugs?

Many of the OCD folks I work with have histories of self-medicating to try to quell OCD issues, but unfortunately that only makes OCD worse. Even marijuana can exacerbate OCD issues, which can remain for weeks/months/years after the 'high' has worn off. I cannot count how many times the owner of Brainphysics and I have warned people with OCD never to smoke pot under any circumstances.

My 23-year-old cousin died of a drug overdose in 2004, so this is also a personal issue. Her mother found her dead with a ghastly expression on her face and has never been the same. She was also an only child.

Less gruesome...

Always nice to talk to a fellow writer. I practically live to write!

@ Reg: Since this post is already going to be too long (SORRY!), let me comment within two of the threads you cited.

http://www.christianrecovery.com/vb/showthread.php?p=64196#post64196

http://www.christianrecovery.com/vb/showthread.php?p=64197#post64197

@ Spiny Norman: Your link is beyond my expertise, I am afraid. I have a Master's in history, but I received it in 1990. Since 1994, I have taught and researched only English as a Second Language--although I have read many books about history for pleasure. I did take a philosophy of history/history of history course with the late Ruth Kleinman back in the late 1980s, but since she was a Renaissance historian all of our readings were from that period.

In addition, I am not at all versed in Foucault, Derida, and the rest of the modern French philosophers, and for this reason I am afraid I cannot give you the detailed answer you wish. I'll do my best, but I am afraid you will now see how much bullshit I'm full of...

I have no problem with the idea of tropes, although the idea reeks of universals. What of colors that appear simultaneously blue and green? I can remember being asked if I considered a particular garment blue or green. The problem is language.

Language is limited, and it is a botched attempt to explain things greater than itself. In my own field, we say that language came first; grammar was invented much later as an attempt to explain language--even though it cannot. For example, which of these sentences is correct?

None of the men are here.

None of the men is here.

I can use grammar to "prove" that either one is correct, and in fact linguists are not in agreement. Do you use of the rule of proximity and make "are" agree with "men," or do you say that "none" is the subject (which agrees with "is") while "of the men" is merely a prepositional phrase? Do you use prescriptive grammar ('I will tell you what is right based on the rules of 50 or 100 years ago': "none...is") or descriptive grammar ('I will tell you the way native speakers actually say it today': Most people prefer "are" in this sentence even if it is not gramatically correct)? Grammar cannot possibly explain every nuance of a language (hence the neverending exceptions to grammatical rules) since language is greater than grammar and grammar is just a construct. Similarly, language cannot clearly explain things that are greater than itself. (You Christians often use this argument to explain why you cannot use limited language to "prove" that God, who is greater than language, exists.)

Good goddess, even I am getting confused here--and I'm the one writing it!

I believe universals are constructs, and even the color green (mentioned in your link) is not viewed the same way across all cultures even in our century. (If I knew more of Foucault et al, I would probably refer to the "message" of green and what it transmits.)

I do subscribe to the idea of teleology as bad, and I see Christianity, Marxism, and democratic theory as the same thing: Everything leads to conversion to Christianity or the overthrow of the capitalist order or the overthrow of all governments that are not American-style democratic.

This is actually bad history. An historian is supposed to ask a question, carry out research, and then draw a synthesized answer from that research. The facts lead him or her; he or she does not lead them. Since Christianity, Marxism, and democratic theory presuppose a specific outcome, they are no better than a dishonest historian (read that as most historians!) researching only to come to a specific pre-ordained conclusion.

--PHEW-- That's my best effort, and I hope I didn't sound too foolish.

I honestly don't spend my days contemplating this sort of thing. I'd rather contemplate Star Trek and super-heroes. Although I am an academic, I flee from intellectuals who get off on philosophy. (I chose "get off" purposely, as I wonder if they do a circle jerk while reading Nietzsche... I am convinced that one of my colleagues jerks off to Paolo Freire...)

On that unsavory note...

In reason,

Ameen

[Willow]

@ Willow: Re-envisioning God as Whoopi Goldberg instead of a nasty old white guy hurling thunderbolts at those who transgress even the slightest works for me; I assume it would work for a Christian as well.

I am no expert on the human brain, but it would seem to me that changing one's mental image of God changes the cascading way thoughts about the Judeo-Christian deity emerge. If you have thought a thousand times about the nasty old white guy, then your thoughts would be used to a pattern and would make unconscious associations, I believe. No further spiritual growth would be possible (again, I believe) since everything would stem from the nasty old white guys' image and negative associations.

Give a God a cosmetic makeover, and you have to make new associations with her image and store them in different pathways. Your thoughts about God are then consciously reshaped.

Of course, you don't have to use Whoopi Goldberg as your model. You should re-imagine God as you choose.

Is there a biologist, an M.D., or a therapist on the board? What I have just written is how things appear to me, but I am waaaaaaaay out of my league and am just theorizing here. Someone who can explain the actual processes within the brain would be of immense help to Willow.

Awww... thanks Ameen. Hey... I do have a new therapist. Hopefully when I bring all this to her, she'll be able to absorb it and integrate it into therapy. It's a new relationship, so I have yet to understand how she does treatment. I think all of us here only speak from our own experience and we take each other's advice or writings as those of non-professionals.

[Spiny Norman]

... love is a chemical reaction based on our evolutionary need to reproduce ...
My wedding anniversary is coming up in a couple of weeks (18 years married). Does anyone dare me to tell my wife, instead of "I love you":

"I'm having a chemical reaction based on my evolutionary need to reproduce"

??? Ameen, you're telling me how my brain processes (or tried to interpret?) love, but that's not what love is ... ;)

[Spiny Norman]

What of colors that appear simultaneously blue and green? I can remember being asked if I considered a particular garment blue or green. The problem is language. Language is limited, and it is a botched attempt to explain things greater than itself.
I agree actually. That which language seeks to describe must be greater (or perhaps more real) than the concept generated in the brain of the recipient who is seeking to visualise the concept.

Unless this universe were to cease to exist in the absence of humans, then the things which we observe exist independantly of our observations. Here I would note however that people like Stephen Hawking are beginning to toy with the idea that human observation makes the universe what it is ... I think that's a slippery slope to madness, but there you go!

Getting back to love ... I have the view that love exists independently of the human mind, therefore love cannot just be a chemical reaction in my brain. Love itself is greater than that. More so, "real love" cannot be the same as my understanding or expressions of love to those around me. My understanding or expressions of love are but a shadow of that greater, truer, purer love.

All of what I have just written is inadmissable evidence in the materialist/atheist world view, so I recognise that I am not trying to convince you that my view is more correct than yours. That will never happen. But I think its useful for those reading to know that there are a variety of different ways of thinking about our existence. Yours is one view. Mine is another ... and there are many, many more ... :)

[leelees]

hi armeen, nice to meet you...
i havent been here for a long while so hello hope you are all well...im ill.

i have to say, i did try and read the thread but i struggled so just went to the end....
im very much annoyed by everything at the moment, its over 3 years since my abuse but its like it all happened yesterday and im afriad i feel rather thick reading this thread, there are alot of interlectual and big words and phrases that mean nothing to me and it kind of gets my back up...
im slightly offended at the sentance that you left other boards or got thrown off them because they judged you- i can totally understand why you are cautious...but after some of the stuff wever been through the last thing any of us would do is judge people joining here....im in a bad frame of mind at the moment so everything that slightly irritates me is magnified...dont take offence.
Leanne

[Ameen]

@ leelees: No offense taken. No worries.

I'm sorry that some of my post gave you trouble. I can tell you that I am horrible in math and science, and if you saw some of the stupid things I have come up with in those fields you would die laughing. For example, my sister never tires of reminding me about what I wrote on a high school biology exam: I claimed that the four basic components of DNA were oxygen, nitrogen, helium, and hydrogen. (Basically, if that were true we'd exist as... gas beings!)

My sister is one of those lucky people who aced every subject in school and remains good at everything. She teaches math, music, theater, and Christian religion in a Christian junior high school. I, on the other hand, am only good at language, literature and history. I have always done well in those areas with minimal studying, but even with a math tutor I passed math only by the skin of my teeth (and I don't think I deserved to pass it at all).

I still count on my fingers.

The dialogue between Spiny Norman and I is a bit much, I admit. We're having fun; that's all. It has almost no bearing on the aim of this board.

If there is anything else that gets your back up and that you would like me to make clearer please don't hesitate to question any word or sentence or paragraph or entire post. I don't want you (or anyone) to feel left out.

You can do it in this thread or by private message (even though I am normally not a private message writer). Besides, if math and science were on the table I would be asking a million questions.

@ Spiny Norman: Yes indeed, kiss your wife, look lovingly into her eyes, and say, "I'm having a chemical reaction based on my evolutionary need to reproduce."

She should then respond: "My chemicals are also reacting. Undress." :D

O.K., you don't have to be that literal! I just don't like the overused cliche "I love you" since it carries as much weight as "I love pizza." In all honesty, the most beautiful thing a man can say to me is "I enjoy having you near, and I feel your absence when you're not." That, at least, is specific and expresses a real sentiment.

Again, let us agree to disagree. You hit the nail on the head when you followed your own thoughts on love with "All of what I have just written is inadmissable evidence in the materialist/atheist world view..."

Interestingly, though, on an atheist board a few years ago, a number of us were debating the nature of love, and, while some agreed with me (more or less), others believed it was something akin to your beliefs, something outside the material world and greater than our ability to express it. I told them they sounded like a bunch of theists! :p

@ Willow: All the best to you in your quest to heal!

----------------------

Willow asked what I wanted to talk about here... Here's an issue that really plagues me.

WARNING

If you are very sensitive to criticism of Christianity and feel fragile in your own recovery from abuse, DO NOT read the rest of this post or look at the cartoon in my link. I will not think less of you, as you have a right to express limits in what you can and cannot handle given what you have been through.

Otherwise...

It's interesting to me how being non-judgmental is stressed on this board--and I certainly appreciate it. I cannot function in a judgmental atmosphere.

Here is my problem: Many of you say you are Christian. In all honesty, I don't perceive people here as Christian (which, in my mind, is a good thing) since I see Christians the way the cartoon in my link, taken from my atheist board, portrays them. Jesus himself (if he existed) was, in my opnion, a man (not a divine being) who claimed to come with a sword instead of peace and intended to separate loved ones in his name. That is indeed what has been happening for two thousand years. He also did not oppose the suffering sadistically detailed in The Book of Revelation or sending people to hell.

If I it were up to me, I would not even send Hitler or Saddam Hussein to hell. They were psychologically disturbed--textbook cases--and unable to control themselves. That does not justify what they did, of course, but it does explain why. Besides, a punishment is supposed to teach a lesson that one can the apply; "eternal punishment" is an oxymoron. It defeats its own purpose.

Here's the cartoon:

http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a220/vluku/Miscellaneous/Atheisthumor-1.jpg

In reason,

Ameen

[Hope 98]

It's interesting to me how being non-judgmental is stressed on this board--and I certainly appreciate it. I cannot function in a judgmental atmosphere.

Here is my problem: Many of you say you are Christian. In all honesty, I don't perceive people here as Christian (which, in my mind, is a good thing) since I see Christians the way the cartoon in my link, taken from my atheist board, portrays them.
In reason,

Ameen

Well - in light of the cartoon - I consider it a high compliment that you don't perceive people here as Christian. Obviously I am hoping I am included in those people.

I see Jesus Christ differently than you do, but I can understand how you have come to see him as you've described. I see Jesus very differently than a lot of people who consider themselves very righteous Christians who would really doubt my salvation.

So I'm willing to respect your choices and right to them. I find myself equally frustrated with people who feel compelled to insist I agree with their beliefs or suffer eternal torment.

[Willow]

Here is my problem: Many of you say you are Christian. In all honesty, I don't perceive people here as Christian (which, in my mind, is a good thing) since I see Christians the way the cartoon in my link, taken from my atheist board, portrays them. Jesus himself (if he existed) was, in my opnion, a man (not a divine being) who claimed to come with a sword instead of peace and intended to separate loved ones in his name. That is indeed what has been happening for two thousand years. He also did not oppose the suffering sadistically detailed in The Book of Revelation or sending people to hell.

If I it were up to me, I would not even send Hitler or Saddam Hussein to hell. They were psychologically disturbed--textbook cases--and unable to control themselves. That does not justify what they did, of course, but it does explain why. Besides, a punishment is supposed to teach a lesson that one can the apply; "eternal punishment" is an oxymoron. It defeats its own purpose.


I have a link for you that's helped me a lot in my efforts to study the idea of hell: www.what-the-hell-is-hell.com

From what I can gather, our current christian model of hell more resembles Dante's Inferno and not by the Bible at all. The word "Hell" is not christian and comes from the Teutonic "Hele" goddess of the underworld "Hell" of northern Europe. I am a non-believer in hellfire and brimstone. The concept was created by political and economic leaders who created these religious myths in order to keep the people under their power.

Willow

[Reg]

Here's the cartoon:

http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a220/vluku/Miscellaneous/Atheisthumor-1.jpg

In reason,

Ameen
Speaking of cartoons, here's a link I think you will enjoy.

http://www.sheepcomics.com/

[Ameen]

@ Hope 98: I accept that you, like the rest of the board, have a different view of Jesus, and that is fine. I will never try to tell you that you are wrong; I will only express what I believe and what I have experienced so that I can try to recover.

Your message was very kind, and I think this may be the first time in my 43 years that a group of Christians hasn't pounded on godless gay me and said that I was dead wrong and immoral and going to hell and... How sad that it takes abused Christians to be kind. If only the bulk of Christians knew how to be kind for the sake of being kind. I've already said what I think about how religion has a negative effect on people, so I won't rehash it here.

I still expect to find myself banned every time I come on this board. It's hard to believe--and nice to know--that I am accepted here.

@ Willow: It's a good argument, and indeed there are many Christians who take this stance on universal salvation. I cannot say any more, as I do not believe in an after-life--but I am glad that the authors of this article are around since many people who remain religious need this type of comfort. I support what they are doing.

@ Reg: Please forgive me, but talking Christian sheep are not my thing. I'm a big graphic novel fan with a strong love for the art of Steve Rude, Scott McCloud, Joe Phillips, Mac Raboy, Kurt Schaffenberger... That's the sort of thing I look at. The atheist cartoon for which I posted a link is not at all well drawn and not what I normally look at; I posted it merely to show how I felt.

Here's a sample of Steve Rude's science fiction/fantasy art: http://www.fleskpublications.com/fp/images/rude/rude-int02.jpg

And for all you straight guys, here's a sexy Wonder Woman drawn by Steve Rude in 2006: http://www.wonderwomanmuseum.com/WWDay_web/WWD_SteveRude_l.jpg

I'd love to post some of Joe Phillips' gay art, but I know there are limits and I need to respect them...

The last two names I listed, Mac Raboy and Kurt Schaffenberger, are artists who did the bulk of their work before I was born in 1965.

In reason,

Ameen

[leelees]

well this is certainly getting my brain ticking over....straight away every time i read some thing you write, armeen, my mind goes into overdrive...i find this hard to explain, i want to come back at you and say you are SOOOO wrong in everything you write lol but i know i must take a step back and think "for goodness sake leanne shut up and get a grip, you are not always right" because this was very much how my old church was and ive spent the last 3 years doing as much as i can to not be so judgemental....this thread is showing me just how much i was indoctrinated by them and im really sorry! but also in an odd way thankyou because its certainly going to help me practise! in all honesty im have no problem with people being gay or otherwise...i guess its more of a challenge...like stepping out of your comfort zone or something...i dont know what i mean but maybe you being far more intelligent then me may get what im trying to say...anyway, i work with a load of people who are gay so its fine by me, 2 of them are quite hot so im try and get them straight again lol which gets me through my crap day at work!
i guess im like i know what i believe and i find it difficult to see how people cant believe the same thing with all the articals and historical facts ive been faced with and with creation and just looking at a leaf or a flower or something and not believe how it was created by God in all its technical detail, i cant really fathom how people can think its from a big bang, its illogical how something can be created out of an explosion...bangs destroy things not create etc etc etc etc etc etc but thats a different tangent all together which i kind of dont want to debate...i hate debates, im crap at them but do you see my drift....i guess im so easily impressionable....and i find it soooo weird how you call God a "she"...i believe that Jesus being a man is also God therefore God is also male....but i would be interested to know how and why you call God a She....intriging stuff...

P.S. i cant count past 10 on my fingers lol and i cant live without a calculator...i do work in Optics so its getting better...plus ive taken up that Brain Training thing on the DS and have strangely gotten into Soduku which i like strangely enough seeing as i pretty much failed quite badly at maths in school!

gosh that was a rant..sorry.... i feel much more positive this evening!

[Ameen]

Hi, Leelees.

I usually wait until a few people have commented before writing back, but one thing in your message made me decide to write right away.

Why do you say I am smarter than you? My knowledge is limited to very specific fields, and in those areas only do I claim expertise. In all other things, my knowledge is average or less than average. I am certain that there are many things you know better than I do. When you say I am smarter, you give me power over you that I don't deserve and set yourself up for not wanting to debate or voice an opinion. When you say you run from debate, perhaps it is because part of you still hears the voices of the abusive Christians calling you wrong. This is how we were all spiritually manipulated by folks who claimed to know more than we did and were 'right' about all matters spiritual.

Although I am not a Christian, I believe that Christians feel their God has given each of them different talents. Since you have come out of an abusive church, it may be hard to affirm things about yourself that you should be proud of, but I advise you to make an effort to embrace your gifts. By virtue of being human, you have gifts.

In addition... As you know, I teach university students. I never allow them to say that I am smarter than they. In fact, I insist that they call me by my first name and challenge things I say in class. I see myself as a guide, not as an all-knowing teacher. (The only time I have to be the uber-teacher is when a student isn't doing any work. Anyway...) I teach them to think for themselves and be proud of who they are largely because I was duped by a cult and I want to make sure they are not.

Here is something I do with my students (cut and pasted from a recent post on my OCD board):

-----------

I teach English as a Second Language, and I always make sure to put something about propaganda in my lessons. Here is an example that might help all of you.

On a number of occasions, I have lied to my class. I have told them that our Founding Fathers based the Declaration of Independence and Constitution on the writings of the lost continent of Atlantis. I have then spewed forth utter nonsense and have even written an 'example' of the Atlantean language on the board: karooka kawakka karinga karoopago. When I have told them to copy down this example, they have scribbled away dutifully.

Sometimes a student objects, saying that this cannot possibly be true. (Such students will go far in life.) More often, however, I can have the class going for ten or fifteen minutes. Everyone believes me.

At that point I stop and say that everything I have told them is a lie. Students are stunned. Teachers don't lie.

Heck, of course we lie! We then have a discussion about why they believed me: I am the authority figure; I am a nice guy; I seem intelligent; I speak well; teachers are supposed to give true information... Yet, I lied.

We then talk about things we read in textbooks and newspapers, things we see on TV... And the word propaganda comes up. I am a liberal, but I am the first to admit that we liberals are full of as much crap as conservatives and radicals. Of course everyone lies, exaggerates, and quotes biased references to sell you viewpoints and get you to join political parties, religious (or non-religious) institutions, social cliques, and so on.

I don't believe liberals are any more "right" than conservatives or radicals. Rather, I believe everyone has some good points and some bad ones.

The bottom line: Don't believe it because a nice guy tells you. I tell my classes that I will be lying more often, and that they have to decide when to believe me and when not to believe me. I want them to have critical minds when listening to others.

Don't believe it just because it is in print. Even people who mean to tell the truth can make mistakes. I have found many mistakes in The New York Times, for example.

Trust yourself. There are of course many correct things said by people and found in print--but you have to find your own beliefs yourselves. Remember that you can always change your views. And remember that life is about living with uncertainty.

-----------

Now, about my calling God 'she'... Here is something I posted much earlier in this thread:


For my own behavior therapy, I try to erase the image of God as a nasty old white guy with a robe and beard who cackles maniacally as he smites people for their sins. (This is the mental image I still have.) Instead, I try to imagine God looking like Whoopi Goldberg, complete with those gorgeous dreads, John Lennon glasses, and smile. I adore Whoopi's smile, and if God exists and loves people, then that is the type of smile she would have.

Since I am appalled by Christianity's colonial record in Africa, Asia, the Mid-East, Latin America, the Caribbean... I don't want to imagine God as white or as a guy.


Beyond that, if God exists, wouldn't he/she/it be greater than sex/gender? God isn't corporeal, after all, so why should he/she/it have a sex?

I am glad that I get your brain ticking. I respect that you disagree with my views on the Big Bang, and I guess you might disagree with my views on evolution as well. (There are, however, some Christians who believe that these are the ways God created the universe and life on earth.)

To me, creationism is, well, just plain silly. That does not mean a person who believes in it is silly, though. For example, I was just instant mailing my best friend, and when he asked what I had been up to today I said that I had rewatched one of my favorite movies, A Clockwork Orange. I think Kubrick's masterpiece film depicts the human condition well--but I think the original book is even better than the movie. I am also a big fan of the film One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest--and, once again, I think the book is better than the movie. (Nurse Ratched is beyond evil in the book and was toned down in the movie. The book especially shows life as it is.) However, my best friend dislikes both of these movies and has never read either book because the themes don't interest him. He adores the TV series The X-Files, while I find it silly. So, we agree to disagree on all these things and find common ground, in our case the TV series Supernatural. It's both his favorite show and mine. (That Jensen Ackles is the hottest man on earth helps, but there is much more to the show than just Jensen... ;) )

Similarly, if we embrace our differences, I think we on this board can learn from each other by working on not being judgmental. I am here by choice--for behavior therapy so that I can try to stop hating Christians so much and learn to separate people who happen to have a belief I disagree with from those who abused me. It isn't easy--not at all. Still, I know atheists who don't hate Christians and have many Christian friends; this makes me see that my goal is doable.

Anyway... Rant as much as you like! It's next to impossible for me to say anything in less than a hundred words (or less than a thousand!) and I don't fault others for having the same weakness. :)

In reason,

Ameen

[Hope 98]

Hi Ameen,

In your response to Leelees, you brought forward how you're trying to erase your image of god as a a nasty old white guy with a robe and beard who cackles maniacally as he smites people for their sins.

In that way specifically, all of us here are on common ground. Individually, the details may be different, but the fact is that the image of God that abuse has given us is a lie.

I believe the lie is based in the desire of the cult leader to be viewed as if he (or she) is God, so he teaches & preaches and manipulates people to fashion for themselves a god who is made in his or her image. Rejecting that image and hating that image is progress toward healing.

It sounds to me that you are going very well to proactively substitute an image of God that is less terrifying :). Your effort and concern for treating others as you would like to be treated is also commendable. These things are difficult to do!

[Ameen]

Thank you for the kind words, Hope 98. I don't pick and choose whom I help in my classroom or on my OCD board, and I won't do it here either. It does not matter to me if someone is a Christian, an atheist, a devil worshipper, or anything else. If I can do something to help that person, I will. Humanity is more important than religion.

There is a touch of self-righteousness in my sentiment, I am afraid, as I am determined not to be like the Christians who denied me so much.

If what I do to recreate my mental image of God is of use to a Christian in getting over pain, that is fine. If it strengthens that person's faith, that is fine too. I do it for different reasons, as I have stated, but I will share anything I do with anyone who asks.

--------------

Warning:

Christians struggling with their faith who do not wish to see it challenged: You should probably not read the rest of this post. I am an atheist, and I am about to post one of the things I most need to get off my chest.

Anyone who skips this post still has my respect. You are on a Christian board, after all, not an atheist board, and you don't have to defend your faith here.

I apologize in advance, but I can't lie about it. It's very hard to get past the image of an evil God--no matter how much proactive thinking I do--when I see the world around me.

I don't know if it is true that "the fact is that the image of God that abuse has given us is a lie." I wish it were true, mind you, and I wish everyone could live happily ever after--but wishing is not being. With all the things I have seen and experienced, it seems little more than a pipe dream.

The way I see it: Either there is no God (which I maintain) or God sits by and does nothing while people get abused. (The "mysterious ways" and "God has a plan" and "It's the devil who does evil" and "God is testing you" arguments just don't cut it with me.)

Let me elaborate: All the pain I have been through is actually nothing compared to what others have been through. My cousin was raped, became a drug addict to deal with it, eventually sold her body for drug money, and died of an overdose in her twenties. Where was God in all this? Children in many nations are being raped and/or slaughtered even as I write this. Where is God? A number of Christian parents toss their gay and lesbian children into the street, and those children sell their bodies to eat. It's not just in the Bible Belt either; it also happens right here in New York. What kind of a loving God allows this?

Again, I'm really sorry, but I must be honest. To do any less would be to dishonor myself and others who have suffered.

In reason,

Ameen

[Spiny Norman]

Ah, theodicy ... there are personal answers to this that individuals find satisfying, but I know of no 'slam dunk' argument that can be offered in response. I think the 'problem of evil' is the #1 argument that can be offered in support of the argument that God does not exist. I have personally reconciled it to my satisfaction, but I know of many such as you who think that it at least makes the existence of God less probable than probable. A friend of mine is writing his Ph.D dissertation on this very subject, so I am looking forward to reading his p.o.v. when he finally gets it finished.

[Hope 98]

Well Ameen - I wish I could answer your very valid points.

Somehow, inside myself, I've come to believe in a good & loving God in spite of the abuse and hatred and natural disasters in the world. I also have always hated the "pat answers" that some Christians like to hand out like business cards.

My image of God may be as false as the image of God we both find hard to swallow. Maybe I just find it easier to replace a negative image with a positive image, than to replace a bad god with no god.

[hornblower]

Ameen sorry not reading all of the previous posts but my back hurts being on the computer so Im keeping this short. I think Christians are afraid they will become 'unsaved' if they listen to people that are 'unsaved' and especially an atheist who is gay, that has to be like the furthest left wing spot a person can be in to a born again, so called, christian.

I dont know, you might make me become unborn or something, what do you think?

I have to believe, in my stupidity, that if I am really a believer and trully born again, there is no way you or anyone else can have any affect on me at all.

If I am wrong then there is no such thing as being born again and real live christianity doesnt exist anyway.....so my advice to you, not that you would want my advice, its not worth much.

Im so damaged by judgementalism from not only christians but athiests and gays and straights and men and women and children and sometimes even the dogs dont like me, but how ever in respect to dogs and animals in general they do like me if Im eating something they like. Ill say that for them, thats better than most humans.

My advice is dont let it bother you what people think. Thats not easy is it?

Im sorry if Christians have hurt you. To be honest though I dont have much sympathy left for anyone other than myself because Im the only person that gives me sympathy.......well.... me and you know who.

I used to feel like it was only christians hurting me and then I went out among people who are not christians and they do the same damnable stuff so I dont have an answer for you or for me.

Thats why I like Jesus. Christians, so called, didnt like him either so they put him on a cross and said see there!

Anyway its helping me not feel so alone knowing He went there.

He was a good guy and look what happened to Him?
I capitialize His name and call Him a He only because I like to think of Him as being who He says He is.

I dont give a flip who believes it or even if its true or not because if its not true, so what?
What does it matter?
If there is nothing then why get all bent out of shape about it why not just let everyone feel good huh?


Anyway I dont think its nice that anyone that calls themself a christian would get angry at you.

But now being from New York that might get you in a lot of trouble down here in Texas. I wouldnt come down here if I were you. Its plenty strange here. I always give New Yorkers a lot of room just because I know they talk different.

[Ameen]

@ Hornblower: I like your style. In some places, you sound like a New Yorker!

Thank you for the kind words and empathy, which are appreciated.

There is a lot I can agree with in your writing, and in fact C.S. Lewis once took a similar position: He wrote that he would continue to practice Christianity even if he knew for a fact that Jesus was a myth. (I think that comes from his autobiographical piece Surprised by Joy: The Shape of My Early Life, but it has been a long, long time since I read him as a Christian--or at all--so I am not sure. These days, I cannot even bring myself to look at his Narnia books, which I enjoyed as a child, since I strongly disaree with their preachiness.)

I have no problem at all with your maintaining your faith, and I, too, have said more than once that if being Christian is real, then nothing I say or write can alter it. Yet, on the Christian board I was thrown off of, there were people who actually refused to read any thread in which I had participated since the devil was speaking through me. I have to end this paragraph here, else I will begin to write condescendingly.

On my OCD board, I tell people to do whatever works for them, as there is more than one way to bring OCD under control (although all the ways I know take much time and are not easy). If someone finds religion helpful, that is fine. Ironically, one of the many types of OCD ("the doubting disease") makes some religious people doubt the existence of God obsessively, this despite their being believers satisfied with their faith and believing in it without question. (Unless you have OCD, this will not make sense. Remember that OCD = a defective brain in which thoughts get 'stuck'.) This throws religious folks them into 24/7 anxiety, and so I have been in the ironic position of helping them restore their faith... Oy vey. Just another ironic chapter in the life of a gay atheist with OCD who helps many Christian heterosexuals with OCD and few gays or atheists with the same ailment...

I say this to make it clear that I have no problem with your believing what you wish even though I do not ( or should I say "will not"?--agree (and even though I have SERIOUS problems with C.S. Lewis' dogmatism).

As for not letting it bother me... You do know that I have OCD, no? Telling an OCD person to just stop obsessing or to simply stop the compulsive behaviors is like telling a diabetic to simply will himself or herself to have better blood sugar. It just doesn't work that way. If we OCD folks could just stop like that--what you non-OCD folks do--then OCD would not be the major problem it is.

I am here as part of my own behavior therapy (since I have not needed a therapist for my OCD in years). Not letting it bother me may or may not be doable. I am here so I can stop hating all Christians blindly. I don't like Christianity, but I also don't like any form of prejudice. I would like to continue disagreeing with the religion and hating Holy Rollers who hurt others, but I don't want to hate someone merely for being Christian.

This is hard because, in my experience, Christians and other theists are more judgmental than others. Of course, there are plenty of gays, atheists, liberals, and what have you who are not only judgmental but quite loud about it. I have found, however, that Christians and theists are judgmental more often than not, whereas with others there is at least a 50/50 chance of being treated fairly. I think all human beings are judgmental and prejudiced by nature--It has a lot to do with primal tribal instincts that manifest as an us vs. them mentality--but, and I apologize if this sounds biased or unfair, I find that a greater number of non-theists are able to reign in these instincts better. (Needless to say, there are Christians and other theists who can as well.)

Put the atheist part aside for a minute... Since you folks are not gay, you don't know what the condescending and disgusted looks from your fellow believers are like. Being gay in a Christian community is fully understanding Apartheid. Even Christian gays, people who believe what you do, suffer. If you really want to see Christianity in action, log onto one of Fred Phelps' sites. For example: http://www.godhatesfags.com/

I am biologically gay, having had sexual attraction only to men since I was 9 or 10 years old, before I even knew what sex was. In fact, my first fantasies were merely about sleeping in a shirtless man's arms. At the time, I could not imagine anything else. (Even when I first learned about sex, I thought "oral sex" meant talking about sex. I was really naive.)

I do the same things everyone else does and have the same hopes, fears, and needs. The only difference at the end of the day is the sex of the person I want to be monogamous with. And for that, your religion despises me--or it says "love the sinner and hate the sin," claiming that physically loving another person of the same sex is a sin. The few gay churches or gay-positive straight churches that teach your own Christian love in this respect are universally banned by most Christians. Thank the goddess I'm an atheist!

Finally, Texas... In most of the state, I would indeed be woefully out of place--but in the big cities I might not be as much of an oddball as you think. There are HUGE gay communities in both Dallas and Houston. Austin has a smaller one, but that is the Texas city I plan to visit one day. Like Madison (Wisconsin), Ann Arbor (Michigan) and a number of other cities, it is a liberal enclave surrounded by conservatism. I have been to Madison, and I found the experience of being surrounded by so many like-minded people refreshing.

Also, Texas is home to a number of atheist and freethinker groups, and a number of people on my athiest board hail from there. (I am tempted to say that a disproportionate number of people from my atheist board are in Texas.)

Heck, even Salt Lake City (Utah) has atheist organizations, gay organizations, gay Christian organizations... It's actually one of the west's most desirable cities for gays, this despite the Mormons' best efforts. It's very much like Atlanta, the mecca of the gay Bible Belt.

Of course, no sooner did I land in Madison's airport and claim my baggage when I was accosted by a Christian who "felt sorry for" me since I was going to hell unless I repented of my atheism. Yep, my first taste of such a refreshingly liberal city was marred too.

I travel more often to Europe than other American cities, as I speak French and Italian and have friends there. Again, it is a wonderful experience to be surrounded by so many like-minded people. Despite the stereotype, many French are not prejudiced against Americans--but those who are often mellow when I say I am from New York. Many view New York as a European island instead of part of the U.S. That notion always makes me laugh.

@ Hope 98 and Spiny Norman: Actually, I respect both of you because you DON'T try to give "pat answers" (Hope 98) or a "'slam dunk' argument" (Spiny Norman). The issues I mention are things I have thought about my whole life, and I don't just pull them out of the air.

What I get from you two and Hornblower is that your faith is important to you and you choose to continue practicing it regardless of whether or not it is true. I have no problem with that. My own opinion is that I will try my best to be a decent person who does what he can for other people and leaves the world a better place than it was when he came into it. Other than your believing in God and my not, I think we are saying very similar things.

[Spiny Norman]

If I don't say something here, I might burst. Warning: fundy outburst in sector 2 ...

Just being absolutely clear about my position: I would be classified by most as a fundamentalist Christian (I think). I believe that the Bible can be read plainly (though not literally) and that the historical parts represent real history. I believe in a young earth and young universe. I believe that by some mystery, Jesus Christ was the Son of God and therefore was God incarnate walking among us. I believe that He conquered death and was raised on the third day.

Having said all that, I am very, very open to hear other people's p.o.v. and I actively study in areas where I have no formal training (e.g. I have subscribed to Faith and Philosophy journal, so as to learn about the best possible philosophical arguments for and against my beliefs).

I have a great deal of sympathy for you Ameen, as I know enough about the church and the way that people have treated me at times to know that the treatment meted out to you would have been much, much harsher. Once upon a time I would have been one of those people, passing judgement in a harsh way.

Don't know what else to say. Perhaps this ... re-reading the thread title ... it seems fairly straightforward to me. I'll post a statement now and put myself at risk of being seen as a bigot.

* You would have been treated harshly by many "traditional" Christians because they believe that homosexuality is sinful (a sin against the "natural order" of things, and more specifically, something that goes against their plain reading of Scripture)

I expect that's the bottom line. Many Christians, in passing judgement on sinful behaviour, seem to be incapable of discerning that sin doesn't admit by degrees. I have the view that the sin of murder is, at its core, no different from the sin of lust, or theft, or anything else you might want to name. Perhaps such Christians disagree with me that sin "just is" and believe that your behaviour is of a particularly eggregious form.

So Ameen, I'm sorry to have to post all that, and I suppose I will be seen as horribly judgemental myself ... but if you're really looking to understand why many Christians have treated you poorly, I would bet my last dollar that its because you're homosexual, and open about it ... and they feel extraordinarily threatened by that.

I've worked with a number of gay people. I've never felt particularly threatened by that, although at times I did feel at least somewhat uncomfortable. I know, from watching TV, that there are elements in American society that are outrageously anti-gay. I've seen them, standing on roadsides, holding up placards, telling passing cars stuff like "Fags will burn in Hell" and all that sort of thing.

For what its worth: that's also sin ... and it turns my stomach to see people misrepresenting the gospel in that way.

So there you go. Now I expect that I will in turn be pilloried for my intolerance. But I hope you can see that this intolerance is not personal. Its not directed at you. It just is what it is ...

[Ameen]

Now I expect that I will in turn be pilloried for my intolerance.

You won't be pilloried by me. This is a site where people MUST be honest if they are going to heal. I respect you for your honesty and thank you for the kind words.

---------------------------------------




* You would have been treated harshly by many "traditional" Christians because they believe that homosexuality is sinful (a sin against the "natural order" of things, and more specifically, something that goes against their plain reading of Scripture)


Heterosexual sex would be very unnatural for me, yet I don't condemn it in others.

I will also say that the Christian condemnation of homosexuality makes no sense. I have three choices in life:

1. Be celibate for life, which is psychologically unhealthy unless it is what I want. No way, not unless all heterosexual Christians are also willing to be celibate.

2. Marry a woman (and thus merely use her since that is not the way my sexuality is wired). I would never use another human being this way. A heterosexual woman deserves the devotion of a heterosexual man.

3. Be gay since that is who I am--and that includes being sexual within my sexual identity. I, too, deserve to be treasured mentally, emotionally, and physically.

In reason,

Ameen