Inclusive Church

[Willow]

Has anyone here heard of "inclusive churches"? It's a relatively new development in my city. I'm considering visiting one with a friend. He said they model themselves after Jesus inclusive love and do not exclude people based on their sexuality, behavior, or appearance and believe if Jesus loves them like they are, then we are called to the same purpose. They also believe it's not up to the church to change people... but that it is god's work and the church's job is merely to accept and love as unconditionally as possible.

[Gayle]

Yes, I have attended 2 such churches. Both were made up of people coming from mainstream traditional churches - people who were looking for a different view of worship, less traditional and some wanted much more liberal teachings. At first their motto was as you wrote:

....He said they model themselves after Jesus inclusive love and do not exclude people based on their sexuality, behavior, or appearance and believe if Jesus loves them like they are, then we are called to the same purpose. They also believe it's not up to the church to change people... but that it is god's work and the church's job is merely to accept and love as unconditionally as possible.

One church eventually split and the other closed doors. As much as they thought they were open minded there were a few in each who suddenly felt the group had allowed too much worldly doctrine in so that the church was becoming corrupted - immoral? in regards to sexuality and new age beliefs....even though there were no people in the groups claiming to be lesbian or gay. The thought of becoming more open to encouraging them to attend and be active in leadership roles was creating anxiety for some in regards to exposing their children and leading them to believe this was OK.
Legally we are no longer to discriminate if a gay/lesbian wishes to lead a church or choir. These few traditionalists would rather see a church fall apart than leave and join a church more to their liking so they went about meddling in relationships till there was too much hostility and distrust among members.

Guess not all churches are like my experiences were but what I'm trying to say is to remember there will be humans there! :D

[Willow]

Thanks for the input Gayle! My friend who attends that church is same sex oriented. He's found it to be a safe place. While they don't celebrate homosexuality... they do not condemn him for it. You have to know my friend. If anyone wishes he wasn't homosexual, it would be him. He's tried all the homo nomo groups to no avail and finally resolved to being celebate rather than take a chance at a failed marriage. I'd marry him in a heartbeat if he'd take the chance.

I hope that church doesn't meet the same end that yours did! It's way to far away for me to try to attend, but I am going to visit. I'm curious and hopeful!

[ex-shep]

I left a church when it became inclusive. My conscience would not let me get away with it. There were no hard feelings. I was already attending another church so the switch was easy.

The evangelist for the "Community", controversial as he can be at times, did make a good point. There are two extremes. The intolerant hell fire and damnation school which is not terribly inviting. There is the come as you are school. Downside there no change in the behavior. Anyone dealing with sexually troublesome issues feels truckloads of shame. It has to be a safe place. No easy answers and quite tricky business sometimes.

Hope the perspective helps. Just one poster's two cents.

[Willow]

Thanks for the input ex-shep! I'm sure a lot of people would have problems with a church that doesn't have a firm hand. I know I could sure use an inclusive environment... but not a homosexual environment. I'd like to find a guy someday... that would be hard to do in a homosexual church... LOL

[ex-shep]

Thanks for the input ex-shep! I'm sure a lot of people would have problems with a church that doesn't have a firm hand. I know I could sure use an inclusive environment... but not a homosexual environment. I'd like to find a guy someday... that would be hard to do in a homosexual church... LOL


um yeah. Me thinks thou havest a point :)

[Anna Marta]

FWIW,

In Norway the state church has a branch called "Open Church". It is predominately homosexual in orientation, but welcomes everyone. The main state church goes both ways depending on where it is located. Some are very liberal and even have homosexual pastors and bishops.

Our newest acquaintances are a lesbian couple who just had a baby baptized in the open church. There are a wonderful couple and we very much enjoy being with them. Homosexuality is a problem for me too - loving the person and not being able to agree with their sexual choices is so hard, especially if the person is militant in wanting to force me to accept that choice and equating that with love. Am I making sense?

When it comes to tolerant, frankly I hate the word! I think that either you do or you don't want to accept a person or issue - tolerant to me, means that frankly you don't give a damn and that is worse than outright rejection because the other person is forced to live in a kind of limbo of never being certain whether they are liked and accepted or not which is basically an UNtolerable state to be in.

When it comes to making positive life changes, I don't know that any church's general congregation is the right place to deal with them. That is what small groups and support groups are about. They are a place we can give others permission to "interfere" in our personal lives.

When I read about the problems with the tolerant churches splitting, it is understandable. There is no such thing as a place where everything is tolerated, it would be social/moral/ethical chaos and anarchy - wouldn't it?

I can't be the only conflicted person, can I?
Love
AM

[ex-shep]

At least after Anna Marta's post. I do not feel as awkward

[Willow]

I can't be the only conflicted person, can I?
AM

Love that quote! My friend said this isn't a homosexual church... We have militant homosexual churches around here like you are talking about. I haven't found myself comfortable in those because I'm not homosexual. I don't feel judgemental... but I don't feel comfortable. This might end up being more of the same... I'll let you know what I find out when I visit. I'm incredibly curious!

[Hope 98]

Yeah - conflicted here too - if conflicted is the right word...

It's really hard for me to separate who I am from what I do, which is the receiving end of love the sinner, hate the sin.

If you follow mathematically with "treat others as you would like to be treated"...

Really - how do I want to be treated by someone who cares about me but really disagrees with something I am doing?

Furthermore - what if I believe I am doing the right thing? That's REALLY tough.

What if I believe I'm doing the wrong thing, but I just can't seem to correct the wrong behavior as much as I may want to? I am sure that may make it difficult to love me, and constant correction is not going to leave me feeling lovable (if that's not too confusing to say).

The only place I see the possibility of a well functioning relationship is if I don't recognize the way my behavior effects others. In that circumstance, I think I would appreciate correction administered with patience and grace.

So - mathematically - I'm not even sure what functions to apply (add or subtract, multiply or divide), let alone understand which side of the equation I'm on. :confused:

This is why we all have an innate fear of word problems, right?:eek:

p.s. - it's almost dawn & I haven't slept that could be the reason I'm not making sense...(I don't WANT to wrap and I can't sleep unless I do wrap...grumble....)

[Anna Marta]

It's really hard for me to separate who I am from what I do,

Really - how do I want to be treated by someone who cares about me but really disagrees with something I am doing?


Actually this sounds like my relationship with my kids during some of the "difficult" years (like sexual choices during college years). I loved them VERY much and knew how to keep my mouth shut while they (as adults) learned their lessons and made their choices. They knew I would not be comfortable so they showed respect by not expecting to sleep with a friend in my home. No one pushed things militantly or equated acceptance with love. I liked their friend and they knew that, so we all got along just fine! I don't think it is necessary to discuss some thngs to death.

This is the way I treat my homosexual friends too. We do not expect to be agreed with. We expexct to loved and accepted as individuals.

AM

[Willow]

This is the way I treat my homosexual friends too. We do not expect to be agreed with. We expexct to loved and accepted as individuals.

AM

This is exactly how my gay guy friend says he feels about this new church!

[Anna Marta]

Then that church may just be a nice place... :) I yearn for a place like that too.

Love
AM

[Ameen]

Since you were so nice to me in my thread, Willow, perhaps I can return the favor.

Regarding this...

If anyone wishes he wasn't homosexual, it would be him.

That's very, very sad. Being born gay is like being born with dark hair instead of blond hair. It's neither better nor worse that being born heterosexual.

Your friend may want to read this Christian affirmation of same-sex relationships. And no, it wasn't written by a young gay guy. It was written by a married heterosexual Baptist minister--who is also a senior citizen. You can also write directly to Bruce (the minister); he anwers messages.

Just click on the link and scroll down to "Letter to Louise."

http://godmademegay.com/

Here's a very short article by another married heterosexual senior minister--this time a Presbyterian: http://www.godweb.org/gaymarriage.htm

I end up sharing a lot of stuff like this in my volunteer work.

By the way, I have no problem with celibacy if that is what the person wants. Not counting masturbation, I myself am currently celibate by choice since I have not dated in a while and prefer monogamy--but I do not intend to stay celibate for the rest of my life. I am not saying that I will necessarily wait for a committed relationship; I may and I may not. I am, however, saying that I have had sex and I intend to have it again.

My problem is when a person is forced into celibacy aganist his or her sexual desires by religion. That is psychologically harmful. (I speak from experience, having been a virgin until I was 24 and a half for fear of going to hell. I never so much as kissed, as the cliche goes, until then.)

About inclusive churches...

As an atheist I don't go to any church, but my sister is the head Sunday School teacher and children's choir director in an inclusive Presbyterian church here in New York.

Muslim and Christian children both go to the Sunday School, and there is no attempt to convert the children since that is not what their parents want.

Every year during the Christmas concert a number of Hannukah songs are also sung. (Some Jewish and Muslim children are part of the children's choir--and this includes children who do not go to the church.)

Respect for loving gay relationships is taught. Until last year, there were two lesbian couples in the church, but one left so that one of the women could go to an out-of-state divinity school and become a minister. (A nearby Presbyterian church with an almost entirely heterosexual congregation has a lesbian minister with a wife.)

My sister's church is black, white, Latino and Asian.

Since Harry Potter is so popular, she compares the way good and evil are portrayed in his adventures to biblical precedents. Her students like this.

This is a far cry from what I experienced when I was a child in a Presbyterian church in the 1970s. We were told never to have Catholic, Jewish, or Muslim friends, and gay people who did not repent and become non-gay or live celibate lives supposedly went to hell.

And if I ever questioned anything or disagreed, I was yelled and and made to feel guilty.

[JaniceB]

Thanks for the input ex-shep! I'm sure a lot of people would have problems with a church that doesn't have a firm hand. I know I could sure use an inclusive environment... but not a homosexual environment. I'd like to find a guy someday... that would be hard to do in a homosexual church... LOL

Amen! I used to belong to an inclusive church and I loved it because they included me too. But there was a shortage of heterosexual men. Now that I have mine I wouldn't mind finding another church like that.

Actually, I've just discovered that some churches in my area are inclusive but it's not a big deal. They don't seem to have a preponderance of gays as my previous one did. So maybe it isn't always the case that you can't find a man.

The pastor used to say that he was planning a "Bring-A-Straight to Church" Sunday.

[Ameen]

We seem to have opposite problems. :)

There are too many heterosexual men in my life (the bulk of my friends) and not enough gay men. In addition, it's usually women and not men who are interested in me, and years ago one woman who worked for me hinted that she was looking for a husband. When I told her I was gay, she said she wouldn't expect me to be faithful...

OY VEY!

MAMMA MIA!

My best friend, who is also gay, usually has women running after him as well. However, his heterosexual brother attracts all the guys. Go figure...

This may have nothing to do with the thread, but I have to mention how he met his lover. One day he saw a good-looking guy offer to help a little old lady cross the street. (Who does that these days?!!)

The next day he was in a bar and saw the same guy. He walked up to him and said, "Didn't I see you helping a little old lady cross the street?" That has to be the line of the century!

I mention this because my friend is an atheist and his husband since 2000 is a gay Christian. So... I'm single. Feel free to mail one of those excess gay men to New York...

[Willow]

My best friend, who is also gay, usually has women running after him as well. However, his heterosexual brother attracts all the guys. Go figure...



I think this has something to do with human nature... we want what we cannot have. I personally am head over heels for a guy who is head over heels for a woman who he can't have. Therefore resulting in the outcome that he is unavailable to me. Make sense? We are complicated creatures, eh? LOL



So... I'm single. Feel free to mail one of those excess gay men to New York...

LOVE that story... Hey... maybe I can get my friend over here to talk to you! He's a cult survivor too!!!! I'll see if he'll do it. Would love to see him find the love of his life!!!