The trouble with sex

[Hope 98]

yeah - so my daughter is pregnant

the trouble is that she may not be carrying a viable fetus - she's having an ultrasound a little later today, but I don't know when the doctor will tell us what they think they see

she's not married

she's not finished high school

the boy wanted to marry her before the pregnancy and maintained that after the pregnancy

the emotional toll here is unbelievable

but somebody wants to know if they have "repented". do they know they sinned? have they confessed and asked forgiveness? are they right with God?

are they going to get married if the pregnancy fails?

should they?

if they don't get married - are they going to have sex again?

and what if they do?

I guess we can break about half of the 10 commandments and pretty much recognize we are all guilty at one time or another - so we let those things slide some.

and some things we just ignore until we're caught

seems like every other sin committed - especially against ME - is supposed to be forgiven without any expectation of recognition, let alone repentance

sexual sin however...

we say it's the same - but it's not

[beezer]

Dear Hope 98,

Your daughter is a child of God.
Her child is also of God.
You and your family are of God.

All of you are going through so much.

Do not listen to those that are ready to stone all of you when they have sin also. "He who is without sin cast the first stone".

Learn from it. Love one another. Help one another. Stay united in Christ. Know that Christ loves all of you. Cling to Him and learn what He has to say to you...

Remember Mary, mother of Jesus. What if they had stoned her for what appeared to be a sin?

Have faith.

We have no idea what Christ will do for this situation. Your daughter may end up having a long loving relationship with this young man. She may have an exceptional child that God has special plans for.

It also could be a hard learning experience...a life lesson that will bring her and you closer to Him .

Although the road may be rough, Christ is leading. She can still go to school. She is not marked for life... It is not "the unforgivable sin".

Do not be ashamed. Hold your head up and look to Him that guides you.

You are in my prayers.

God Bless,

Beezer

[Hope 98]

not sure if I'm talking to myself or preachin' to the choir

Today's ultrasound revealed a peanut with a heartbeat and nothing seemed wrong at all

I'm taking the news and running with it before they try to suggest that it's a lost cause AGAIN!!! (who they think they are anyhow!)

Hubby & I went out to dinner this evening and tried to establish a unified response to the whole situation. We have been well aligned all along - but tried to nail things down between us to address "the kids" together - all four of us hearing the same stuff at the same time. Trying to avoid that assumption that anything "goes without saying".

We had our sit-down, got the basics covered, and the channels of communication primed. Summed up - we all acknowledged we are learning and likely to make a lot of mistakes, but if we gave each other enough of a chance we could set things right.

Anybody ever consider the possibility that God created forgiveness from the start because we NEED the courage to make mistakes or we may not do anything at all?

[Hope 98]

Breezer - thank you so much for everything you said!

We believe that God is with us and in us and working through us. Yet, your affirmation means so much!

James 2:
12Speak and act as those who are going to be judged by the law that gives freedom, 13because judgment without mercy will be shown to anyone who has not been merciful. Mercy triumphs over judgment!

[JaniceB]

but somebody wants to know if they have "repented". do they know they sinned? have they confessed and asked forgiveness? are they right with God?

are they going to get married if the pregnancy fails?

should they?

if they don't get married - are they going to have sex again?

and what if they do?


I don't know how you feel about yours but I feel that my sex life is no one else's business.

You teach your kids and you share your values with them. The church should do the same. But when it comes to choices--and if they're not being sexually abused--I think it's time for all of us to clean our own houses and let them take care of theirs. I agree with breezer. This could be a great learning experience and it looks as if you're going to have a sweet little baby in your family. Praise the Lord!

By the way, a Catholic friend of mine tells how the youth director at her church let everyone know that getting pregnant because the Church teaches against birth control doesn't cut it. He said that the Church teaches against sex outside of marriage too. He was implying that if you're going to break one rule break them both and use birth control. Maybe we could all take a hint too.

JaniceB

[Hope 98]

Politically, I am Pro-Choice. It has long been my opinion that the law of the land should allow an individual woman to have a choice about her own reproductive issues.

Laws don't change people's hearts, and the government as it is, interferes with our private lives enough.

Otherwise, I am pro-life and what I am doing right now to love and support my daughter in the consequences of her behavior is the way I DO pro-life.

If premium penalty is applied to the sin of unmarried sex, but ONLY when the pregnancy makes it evident, abortion is the logical result of the human tendency to hide.

Shame is the tool and tactic of the enemies of God. We can't expect to shame people into sinlessness and do so successfully.

This is how I choose life.

[Anna Marta]

Keep on Keeping on dear Hope!

This is a good place to think out loud without fear of reprimands or shaming. Your heart and your head is in the right place... your husband and you are in tune and your child knows she is loved and supported... it doesn't get any better than that!!!

Hugs
Me:)

[Hope 98]

Part of what drives my response to this situation is the fact that I was pregnant myself when I was in high school. I was also in an abusive relationship with the the guy who...

It happened twice and ended in abortion both times.

I've just begun to recognize that the emotional hurdles are coming from the fact I'm having flashbacks. At those points, I am totally over my head, overwhelmed by raw emotion and collapsing in on myself.

I really don't know where to take all of that - but I need real help for this.

I need your prayers, but I'm open to suggestions too.

[JaniceB]

I've just begun to recognize that the emotional hurdles are coming from the fact I'm having flashbacks. At those points, I am totally over my head, overwhelmed by raw emotion and collapsing in on myself.

Oh, I hate the flashbacks! They make me nuts and they hurt sooo bad. It's like I can't think straight and I can't function.

I'm praying for you, Hope. Flashbacks make a hard situation excrutiating. I don't know what else to say or to do for you but love you through this. I'm still trying to learn about this problem myself.

JaniceB

[Anna Marta]

At those points, I am totally over my head, overwhelmed by raw emotion and collapsing in on myself.

I really don't know where to take all of that - but I need real help for this.


It's time for another lunch! Here at Leah's this week and back to Chucks next week. Let me know what is best for you.

We can do lunch here at Leah's before they go to the pool and you can pick her brain. Then, we can have some hours to ourselves when she takes the kids to the pool for the afternoon. It is up to you. I can meet you at Good's and guide you here. If you want to use your GPS the address is 28 Scotland Road in Quarryville.

Love
AM

[ex-shep]

I am not sure if this will help or not. An associate pastor, from a former church, must have had the challenge that was never taught in seminary or in any parenting manual when his daugther was all the sudden great with child. My understanding is it turned out quite well for all involved. I am sure at the time that must have been a monumental test of faith.

[Hope 98]

Thanks for your encouragement ex-shep.

I believe we can make the best of this situation. We have been here before, and we have watched others go through it too. Sometimes it seems to have turned out really well, sometimes at least OK, sometimes awful.

I am not really fearful of what will happen. I am working at determining what is within my rightful control, and how I can contribute to reaching the best outcome available.

I'm frustrated that I am finding judgment in places where I expected compassion, and I'm avoiding the people who have been judgmental in the past. It leaves me feeling overwhelmed and lonely a lot.

I think that if I weren't living this myself, I'd have a hard time believing all the things that are happening to me in such quick succession.

There have been hours that I've been so tired and stressed that it's literally hard to pick up my head. Demands for repentance at moments like that could push me toward a worse choices than I'm already dealing with.

Anyway - some pieces of the puzzle are currently on the upswing, while others are becoming uncertain. We are keeping our heads above water, and it will be OK in the long run. We are simply in the midst of the hard stuff and will be here a while.

[ex-shep]

I had a roommate in college who may have been in similar straits himself. I never did completely figure it out. I was going to ask at a reunion, but modesty prevented.

I was in my group at the time. I had just come home from a Friday night street preaching gig on Lincoln Avenue near all the bars making a Billy Sunday of myself. I walked in the door of to say hi to my roommate, "Hey Joe, How' it goin'"

"Lori and I are getting married today"
"Wait a minute, I walked into the wrong apartment".

I literally walked back in the door to try this again, "Hey Joe, How' it goin' "
"Lori and I are getting married today"
"I thought that is what you said"
"Yeah, 1130 at Morgan Chapel"

Joe went to explain that now would be a good time because he got called up to military duty and the original weekend of the wedding would clash with graduation. OK, I could buy that. I even managed to get somebody to cover my opera shift at the public radio at one o'clock on a Saturday morning.

The wedding was a comedy of errors. Tammy and all the other housemates were away for the weekend for a church event. The sound system, (i.e. boom box) could not be located. One of Lori's housemates, a piano major, was pressed into service. The organ was locked so Judith improvised on a piano which had missed it scheduled tuning. I have a sensitive ear for fine music. Needless to say, it brought tears to my eyes. The final flourish was Lori's heel from her shoe caught a heating grate. They approached the alter to have the pastor make the pronouncement of man and wife. It was other in less than 15 minutes.

Not being sure how to process that fiasco, I celebrated with a stop at Campus Donuts for glazed donut and a large coffee mixed with hot chocolate. That concoction was actually know on campus as a Red Eye. I walked into the studio to relieve Roger who was actually sober but stunned to see me, "I thought you were going to a wedding"
"I did. and don't ask. I was the fastest ceremony I have ever seen. Ok, Roger, you can go. I will try to explain this to the boss on Monday"
"Um Yeah."

I graduated in June and moved East with the group. That fall I popped into Midwest City for a visit and to see Tammy. I ran into Judith in the Music Library. She got me up to speed on what was happening on campus, "... Oh, and Lori had her baby in September. Nathan Roy Jorborski. Mother and child are doing just fine". I was glad to hear about the bundle of joy. I thanked Judith for taking time from her studies to chat. I walked out of Strauss Hall heading for one the fast food dives on College Avenue when I stopped dead in my tracks, "Baby??!!!" I did the math in my head and realized I may have been had. I meant to ask Tammy about it, I was going to ask Judith at reunion a couple of years ago, but then decided to be blissfully ignorant.

I have to wonder if I were the possible victim of, no it can't be, just maybe -- [gulp and suspense music sounder] a [hushed whispered tones] "cover up". Oh well, as Bug Bunny would say, "Em, could be doc".

[Hope 98]

Gee Ex-shep - that whole story is rather sad.

I'm actually grateful that the culture of the day is less inclined to work so hard to hide the fact that baby preceded the wedding.

Some marriages are better off not getting started even if a child is on the way. I still think it's BETTER to work toward a whole family, if possible, but I'm glad it doesn't have to happen right away.

We are in tight finances right now - and if the kids had gotten married right away, the medical costs of the past couple of weeks could have done us in for sure.

It's a sad reality that marriage isn't financially practical for a pregnant teen in this generation.

For a long time, I've considered it enormously frustrating that all the "sexual sins" seem to come under some sort of church discipline, unless it's clergy committing the sin, while all kinds of far more destructive evil are ignored.

Right now - I'm nearly livid over the mixed messages I feel like I'm hearing from the religious community. I am VERY tempted to hand out "virgin" t-shirts to anyone willing to wear them. Of course, married folk would have the "before marriage" banner added to their shirts.

Don't get me wrong - there is a lot of value in waiting for marriage before engaging in sexual activity. It's just that the effort of maintaining that sexual purity becomes such a fertile ground for self-righteousness that I suspect most people trade in their virginity marks for double pride demerits.

But it's hard for me to know - I didn't really understand what the word "virgin" meant before I lost the right to claim the title. It's real hard to care about purity when all you know is that you're "used merchandise" or a cow no one will ever want to buy.

[ex-shep]

In all fairness, this is one area where the group was forgiving and supportive. Let's pray and what can we do to help. The sister's household would have gone out of their way to help had there been a little more notice. The couple seemed to have made it OK.

You do have a good response. It is a tricky situation with no easy answers. Well thought out. Hope all works out at well. At least I was able to vent something that has vexed me for years as well as get credit for some much needed comic relief. :p

[Hope 98]

I'm glad that your experience there was one of forgiveness and support. The "cover-up" aspect touched a nerve for me.

It sounds like the sudden wedding was a comedy of errors taken well in stride. I'm glad the marriage worked out and the baby was healthy.

In all fairness, this is one area where the group was forgiving and supportive. Let's pray and what can we do to help. The sister's household would have gone out of their way to help had there been a little more notice. The couple seemed to have made it OK.

You do have a good response. It is a tricky situation with no easy answers. Well thought out. Hope all works out at well. At least I was able to vent something that has vexed me for years as well as get credit for some much needed comic relief. :p

[hornblower]

Dear Hope, how are things today with you?

[Hope 98]

I thought I was doing better for a while, but I'm not sure now.

I feel like I'm reliving my own teen years and they were horrible.

I'm angry and confused. Apparently I'm just an all around bad person. I think I've worn out everyone around me.

[ex-shep]

I'm glad that your experience there was one of forgiveness and support. The "cover-up" aspect touched a nerve for me.

It sounds like the sudden wedding was a comedy of errors taken well in stride. I'm glad the marriage worked out and the baby was healthy.

I am sure the two have had many a laugh over it over the years.

[ex-shep]

You know I just thought of something. My wife and I were married in the same chapel. It had renovations and thankfully air conditioning. It was a Quaker wedding. I just realized the heating grate was gone. I thought the clanking in the floor was noticeably absent. Interesting. ;)

[FreeBird]

the emotional toll here is unbelievable

but somebody wants to know if they have "repented". do they know they sinned? have they confessed and asked forgiveness? are they right with God?


This is the very reason I have escaped organized religion for good. I believe and trust God, but I do not believe that anyone on earth really has a clue about God. All of the religious books like the Bible and the Quran are filled with stories that portray God as a murderous, bigoted, power-hungry tyrant. Why I ever fell for that bullshit to begin with is beyond my comprehension.

[FreeBird]

Also, how do I change my forum settings so that the forum is not upside down? When I click on a thread, instead of going from first to last, it goes from last to first. That is very confusing.

[ex-shep]

This is the very reason I have escaped organized religion for good. I believe and trust God, but I do not believe that anyone on earth really has a clue about God. All of the religious books like the Bible and the Quran are filled with stories that portray God as a murderous, bigoted, power-hungry tyrant. Why I ever fell for that bullshit to begin with is beyond my comprehension.

Not quite, but I can understand the cynicism all too well. Keep in mind that each person's journey in recovery is different. Keep in mind that my crystal ball is in the shop.

No doubt my my abuse and my cult experiences definitely soured any conception of healthy Christianity. I could not even stand traditional Christmas carols in the department store sound systems as felt as if were being preached at.

When I back to school to get my teaching certificate, I had a friend whose relationship with the evangelical community definitely go south. He was supportive of my involvement in the anti cult movement of the late 80s and early 90s. I always ate with him in the cafeteria. Nevertheless his litany of "all Christians are ... " was starting to wear on me. He was starting to sound the muttering drunk in the back of the bus. I did not bother to convince him otherwise. There are healthy Christians out there. Admittedly I can already hear the unison chorus of "oh yeah", and could wholeheartedly empathize. Still not all Christians are ________. I simply could not wrap my arms around that stereotype.

It would still take me another 12 years before I would darken the door of an evangelical church. It was hit and miss for a bit, but eventually I have graced with some excellent churches. Any of the old timers on the forum can testify to transition to cynicism to healthy acceptance of spiritual things.

Some have had it. They are done, finished, and fed up. There are some in the forum who have found healthy churches and are fine today and there many in between as well.

The good news is you have recognized your abuse and are recovering from it. Now that is better than winning the lottery, I always say. Just one poster's thought. Take what you and leave the rest.

[Jerry]

When I was a young man,I would "Flirt" with pretty girls they would slap me,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,and now ??????,,,,,,,,,,,, they just giggle and say I am cute :(

[Anna Marta]

When I was a young man,I would "Flirt" with pretty girls they would slap me,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,and now ??????,,,,,,,,,,,, they just giggle and say I am cute :(

When I was young girl, young men would flirt me

I would smile and I loved it...

And now?

They just smile and say I am cute - and I still love it. :D

Jerry, I bet you were always teddy bear cute - even in that military uniform :cool:

Hugs from AM