Giving, membership and organizations

[Anna Marta]

I did not want to highjack another thread so I began this one.

GIVING
I think the whole idea of giving is a very personal thing. My understanding from scripture is that God wants me to give out of a grateful heart with no strings attached. Who and what I give to is up to me and Him.

When the church, or any religious organization, starts telling me to whom, or to what I am duty bound to give - I smell "man made rule." And that is one rule I am not about to follow unquestionably.

MEMBERSHIP/ORGANIZATIONS

This is an area we are still struggling with in our home. We have been "bouncing the topical ball" back and forth - how do you do church right?

We agree that up to this point no one has really gotten it right. We also cannot find a way to have a large community of believers come together without stepping in the sticky bubble gum of human nature/man made organizational rules/leadership abuses. It appears to us that most church-like groups are the same.

Churches (including all denominational/independent) have broadened their definition to the point where they have become:

Theocracies allowing dictatorial leadership types to take over
Social service organizations requiring huge amounts of funding
Part of the corporate life of America top heavy in managerial positions earning (more than adequate wages) - IF this corporate entity were to implode it would actually impact the health of the US economy.

We keep going back to the scriptures and reading how disappointed the people were with the kingdom concept of Christ. It is obvious that there did exist some organized means to meet the needs of followers and there was a kind of training for leadership. And it is also obvious that there plenty of problems to deal with even amongst the original apostles. However, Although Jesus had the power of heaven to do so, He did not, nor did the apostles:

enrich themselves at the expense of the giving of the followers
try to overthrow the Romans or change the societal rules of that time.
set the slaves free (but helped them to be able to live free while under slavery)
eradicate all illness, handicaps, disease or economic hardship
try to force people to follow Him
develop a set of rules complete with membership responsibilities
allow unloving/enslaving rules/heretical teaching to go unchallenged


It seems to me that the original plan was to impact the heart of individuals who then transformed would impact their various areas of life as they lived out their change of heart by treating their fellowmen differently and making the rules of their businesses or homes to reflect the Lord of Love, justice and compassion.

Instead the early church fathers (after the apostolic time) were not too different from what we see today. They could not resist interpreting and taking over and organizing personally profitable or self-serving organs. They had their share of outlandish personalities and fights about what to believe and accept as doctrine. It was pretty late before the Nicene and Apostles creeds were adopted as official statements of faith.

So how far have we come today from those early (post apostolic) times? I would venture to say that by comparison there are just as many confused, abused and lost sheep running around or away from wolves...

Soooooooooo now what? :eek:

[Hope 98]

While my view is from a distance, I find it remarkable that Alcoholic Anonymous and all the 12-step based organizations that spring from that model seem to succeed in sustaining themselves and supporting others.

Granted individual 12 step groups can be poor examples, but the overall concept has something going for it. One pretty consistent feature is that they acknowledge each individual group has its own "flavor" and one group may work better for a given individual than another. And hey - go to as many different groups as you want to. Put a buck or two in the basket if you can.

I went to a lot of al-anon meetings for a while. Reading the governing principles, it looked like they couldn't work, but I could see that they did.

Go figure?

[JaniceB]

I find it remarkable that Alcoholic Anonymous and all the 12-step based organizations that spring from that model seem to succeed in sustaining themselves and supporting others.

I've often thought along these lines too. For sure it might be a good idea to read the Twelve Traditions before a church business meeting!:)

But one of the things that makes the Twelve-Step model work so well is the specificity of purpose: AA is for recovery from alcoholism, NA from addiction in general, Al-Anon from addiction to an alcoholic, etc.

What would be our specific purpose were we to form a church on this model?

I truly believe that a lot of the money that people give to churches goes for fluff and inefficiency. Many churches want programs, programs, programs instead of just loving people and trying to meet their needs. That's a big lesson we can learn from the Twelve-Step programs.

JaniceB

[ex-shep]

Have to commend Anna Marta for some interesting food for thought. I had been playing with the question myself. The church in Texas was quite transerent with their finances. We received a quarterly balance sheet. The senior pastor was open about the future of the church and the local organizations they supported. I have only heard one service on tithing and the future goals. It struck me as a sound business practice. I never had any problem tithing there.

A Methodist church was open with its balance sheets and had several checks and balances. The other thing they did was. just before the offering, they would point out where the money went. It could be anything from world missions, the homeless outreach in Dallas, to the janitor's saleries. It was a fun and informative informercial. I appreciated the accountability.

I was in a small urban church in Cleveland. The work of the church was common knowledge. I knew the inner city ministries they networked with. They also kept a contigency fund to take care of the members.

have to get back to work. More ideas later.

[Hope 98]

I truly believe that a lot of the money that people give to churches goes for fluff and inefficiency. Many churches want programs, programs, programs instead of just loving people and trying to meet their needs. That's a big lesson we can learn from the Twelve-Step programs.

JaniceBConsider this "thinking out loud"...

12 steps - person with addiction problem takes the problem to the group to get help for the problem. Person learns that GIVING help to others with the same problem is a big part of how he RECEIVES the help he needs. My suspicion is that the program works because there is NO DISCONNECT between giving and receiving, the process is so interdependent that neither the giver nor receiver could separate their portion in order to measure it.

Church programs tend to be created so that the giving and receiving can be measured. The measuring process requires a shut-down of function that dooms the program from the start.

Organizations generally assume that people will only perform once they are motivated by the promise of a reward or threat of a punishment. It's such a deeply rooted assumption of our culture, it is rare that people allow the thought to cross their minds that it may not be at all Godly.

Personally - I believe that the gospel is the good news that God loves us so much that when we accept that love, we are compelled to return it and as soon as we are connected to that process of constant exchange, we become God's instruments, powered to do His will by virtue of that process where loving and being loved are so entwined that stopping to measure how much goes in which direction destroys both.

We love because He first loved us. And we grow to become what he created us to be in the first place. That "thing" that he proclaimed "very good!"

By allowing God to love us we become more perfectly who we are to the point that our doing what God's love compels us to do is as automatic as breathing. If you really want to stretch the metaphor, recognize how often we cough, sneeze, sniffle, and snore. - i.e. we don't become completely 100% perfect.

We do get to a point of recognizing that TRYING to breathe interferes with the work our lungs have known how to do from the moment we left the womb, without us ever having to teach them.

Have I gone off on a tangent? or is this a thin and spindly limb?

[FreeinJesus]

I have struggled w/ the same thoughts myself Ana Marta.

I don't know what I believe in regards to "church"...though, I don't think that "church" the way the modern day knows it, is what Jesus is building.
I personally believe MEN are building these or their kingdoms, not Jesus'. Just my opi.

We would be in trouble w/ pastor if we didn't go to "church" when we could.(it was mandatory to be in church on Sunday, unwritten rule) of course you would be let off the hook if you were sick, but I can't tell you all of the times *pastor* would project the martryr. When he was sick, he would let the congregation know how sick he was... he pushed himself & was up their *preaching* in his sickness. Of course, if you were the type that needed to be in bed & wasn't as "strong" as *pastor*, you usually felt like a crap christian knowing that *pastor* was killing himself to preach. What a devoted preacher you would think!!:rolleyes: Others would bring sick kids to church, or they themselves would be hacking & coughing, when they should have been home in BED. It was like a martyr complex thingy, or people trying to outdo each other, I'll call it "Spiritual Olympics"!!! That describes it.:D:rolleyes:

Back to my thought.... HOW do I GO to something that I "AM".....Christ adds to the "church"...If I am added to that by the Holy Spirit, then how can I GO to "church"????
I definitely believe that the "church" is an organism, not an organization that is tangible.

Anyhow, I think I understand what men have done in the past...we live in this world & the world has rules, organizations, etc...I don't know what would solve the problem of "churches" today. However, I believe that the more accountability for the leaders, the better for "organized church".

In the bible-cult I was in the "pastor" didn't work. He did not have a job like all of us...he would say his job :rolleyes: is "studying the scriptures".:rolleyes:..he used to say to the believers, "you pay me to study the scriptures...that's what you pay me to do!" I honestly believe that true "pastors" should WORK like the rest of the church WORKS. I think they would learn a lot just dealing w/ the problems & struggles us working ants deal w/, including workshifts that don't accomodate "church". Pastor would just expect folks to not go to "work" or pressure those to leave/change that job/profession. Yet I know of many "churches" that have weekly "services" or Monday evening services to accomodate those who have odd shifts or work nights. Xbible-cult would not make those accomodations for those with crazy schedules...:(

My husband was made to feel guilty & had pressure put on him to change jobs (again!!!:mad:) for "church". Makes me sick the pressure these dictators put on people, yet they themselves are not even in the REAL WORKING WORLD like the rest of us.:mad:

I went off on a tangent.:o..sorry.:o

To me, if a group is an "organized church" or whatever, I'm OK with it, but it MUST have rigorous checks & balances & stress FREEDOM, free to leave, free to join other groups without punishment or humiliation.

I want to say more but I have to get off the computer now.

Ana Marta,:) you brought up some very interesting issues that I have thought a lot about myself!
fij

[ex-shep]

[QUOTE=ex-shep;60797]Have to commend Anna Marta for some interesting food for thought. I had been playing with the question myself. The church in Texas was quite transerent with their finances. We received a quarterly balance sheet. The senior pastor was open about the future of the church and the local organizations they supported. I have only heard one service on tithing and the future goals. It struck me as a sound business practice. I never had any problem tithing there.

A Methodist church was open with its balance sheets and had several checks and balances. The other thing they did was. just before the offering, they would point out where the money went. It could be anything from world missions, the homeless outreach in Dallas, to the janitor's saleries. It was a fun and informative informercial. I appreciated the accountability.

I was in a small urban church in Cleveland. The work of the church was common knowledge. I knew the inner city ministries they networked with. They also kept a contigency fund to take care of the members.

They have a new building campaign because they need it. The church was busting apart from the crowds as the age of the building. The soup kitchen during the summer has to be run outdoors in the parking lot. It is too hot in the basement.

I am currently in a megachurch. I am in small groups so the size does is not overwhelming. I have no problem tithing. I know the ministries they support. There is dual accountability in all directions.

Just some thoughts. Conversely I have no problem not giving if I question the integrity of the church. I stopped tithing at the bible school when I became suspicious of the worship dynamic and the ministries they support.

It is a good topic with some great posts

[Spiny Norman]

Anna Marta, FIJ, and others, thanks for your posts. I am in much the same place personally. In my work I help train churches in how to "do church" (the administrative side of things) better, which also means not just "better" but "legally" and so on. As an example, today I will be working with my own local church to facilitate a strategic review and planning process ... restructuring of their board, vision, mission, values, strategies, etc.

In my personal life I struggle and struggle with a fear that I might be helping to build the apostate church. Perhaps that fear is irrational. But I do worry none-the-less. Having had my own mild SA encounter last year, I am now very sensitised to anything that is even just a little bit "off".

Managing membership (in Australia at least) is a legal requirement. I assume its also the case elsewhere. Associations have to have members, so "render unto Caesar", yes? But there are many different models for how one goes about this.

Someone asked me the other day "But if you don't tithe, you won't have enough money to pay the pastor ... what would you do then?" to which my response was "Let him go and get a real job just like the rest of us". :eek:

[FreeinJesus]

Anna Marta, FIJ, and others, thanks for your posts. I am in much the same place personally. In my work I help train churches in how to "do church" (the administrative side of things) better, which also means not just "better" but "legally" and so on. .......In my personal life I struggle and struggle with a fear that I might be helping to build the apostate church. Perhaps that fear is irrational. But I do worry none-the-less. Having had my own mild SA encounter last year, I am now very sensitised to anything that is even just a little bit "off".

Managing membership (in Australia at least) is a legal requirement. I assume its also the case elsewhere. ......

Someone asked me the other day "But if you don't tithe, you won't have enough money to pay the pastor ... what would you do then?" to which my response was "Let him go and get a real job just like the rest of us". :eek:

Dear SpinyNorman,

Had to mention, I love your signature! What an awesome quote! (insert thumbs up here):D
I think it's great you are working to better church organizations. It's not that I'm against all "church groups", I'm opposed to groups who use thought reform & manipulative means to keep people in their group. I also have a *radar* for *churches/bible-cults* who are abusive, coercive & whose leaders have no earthly accountability. My xpastor answered to NOBODY; on this earth that is...:rolleyes: He would say he's accountable to God & the scriptures...uh-huh.:rolleyes: There was no board of elders to keep him in check, no presbytery, no associate or assistant pastor. It was a one man show. IMHO a guy who is a leader w/ no checks & balances eventually becomes a law unto himself. I believe I saw this.:(

Because of the abuse we suffered at the hands of an out of control *pastor*, I have a very negative bias towards independent churches with only one pastor, especially if that one pastor has no checks & balances. I would be open to at least attending a *safe* church...I actually believe that the denominations are probably safer than an *independent* type of church. I only say that because I'm assuming there are systems of accountability in place. Unfortunately even denominational churches can damage, as many on this forum can attest to.:( ***SIGH***

Norman, IMHO if you are keeping Christ's freedom & priesthood of the believer & Christ's love in what you do, don't worry yourself! Men will always make mistakes when it comes to *church*, love is the key, despite imperfections. I hope you do accomplish good goals in what you are doing.

God's people are his church, wherever they are...whatever *church* they belong to or don't belong to.

and yeah, I totally agree with your last statement!!:D
Let em work like all of us worker ants do!;)

[Anna Marta]

It is good to read that others are struggling with the same things as we are. Misery loves company, huh?

Our first group experience after leaving the church was interesting and proved to us just how complicated human nature is. It did not take long before one couple quickly tried to assume leadership by attempting to organize and control details (like how long the meetings should be - who should teach - where we should meet). The response to this situation by us and another couple was to fade out, without us the group disbanded. Those who tried to control ended up with no one to lead or control because their false authority was rejected. There were no heated confrontations, threats or reprisals.

Was this the right thing to do? I don't know. However, for us it seemed the right thing to do. I think we demonstrated that there are dynamics at work in groups which are not always evident.

Controller types rose to the top rather quickly.
Refusing to be controlled in order to satisfy "a need to belong" vs. "going along to belong" - was the issue.
There seems to be an innate need to be accepted and valued especially by those who you perceive as leaders and this has to be overcome.
There is "power" inherent in groups that is beyond my ability to adequately describe. There is both negative and positive aspects that pull strings deep inside our psyche.
Recognizing warning signs and walking away without confronting the power personalities/controllers is really hard. As is acknowledging that controllers do not change, but can/will compromise long enough to regain control again.
When we walk away and refuse to be controlled it does not necessarily mean the power broker will fail, but it does mean I am set free.


I would like to see a divorce between a community of believers who come together for corporate worship/ Christian community and "organizations" formed to meet societal/global/evangelical purposes.

Some questions I wrestle with:

Does a community of believers need a full time paid professional trained in counseling/money management/organizational charts and procedures/Hebrew and Greek?
Would it not be possible to be a pastor who has a secular job if running a corporate organization were not part of the church?
How much money would be freed up to subsidize parachurch organizations if there were no need for building upkeep, insurance, pastoral and church (read bishop etc.) managment salaries?
Could it not be an individual's choice what organizations to support with their time, money and talents? Would this alleviate the church from becoming a corporate business entity and return it to its rightful position? (Would it be a bad thing if organizations receiving no support failed?)

[Anna Marta]

I am sitting here howling because I misspelled my reason for editing my response - a spelling correction :p

:D :eek: :cool:

Anna Marta (one the great minds of our century, to be sure)

[ex-shep]

I guess the diffferences between my post and the others is that mine presumes a healthy church organization. Obviously when the groups are dysfunctional as the ones were in, it is understandable why one would be reluctant to give.

Anybody who knows me well knows I have no problem not putting in anything into the collection plate and have no misgivings about burning rubber and get the ______ out of there. :eek:

I have the worn tread to prove it :p

[broken_hearted_sheep]

I agree with Anna Marta...giving is a deeply personal thing. I read an article recently about preachers today being like the Catholic church of old, selling indulgences to people.

I know that people are often well-intentioned when they start a project and require and request funds, but most people are financially ignorant and I found preachers are some of the most ignorant. Not only are they biblically illiterate, but their knowledge of sound financial principles is virtually non-existent.

When giving, it should always be about love for GOd and nothing else. Most people are just too scared to look bad in the eyesight of pastors that they give because they feel pressure from man not a gentle nudging from God.

I came from a ministry where the pastors weren't necessarily wasting money on themselves, but they sure did build up an altar of foolishness to their own little empire. The typical, "I make sacrificies, so you should too..." always followed their usual opening line of, "We don't like to beg you for money, but we are really in need of ....."

To me, most churches today are peddling goods unrelated to the mission of the gospel and because they have chosen to trust in themselves instead of provision from the Lord.

Sorry to ramble...in the end all giving should come from the heart...

My husband (a financial minister) states that the Old Testament is about the law and the New Testament is about love....that somes it up about giving, living and walking for Christ.

[Spiny Norman]

Malachi 3 is arguably the most misquoted passage of Scripture. I have myself been guilty of misunderstanding (and thereby misusing) it in a defence of "modern day tithing". I recommend that people might benefit from reading ALL of Malachi, to get chapter three in its full context. Malachi is addressing his early remarks to the priests of the temple, not the people, so when he gets to what we call chapter 3 (keeping in mind that the original writings did not have chapters and verses) he then reaches the full weight of his condemnation of the behaviour of the priests. His anger is directed at them, not the people, because the priests were misusing the tithe.

Its also wrong to call the modern day practice of 'giving 10%' of your income 'tithing'. It isn't. Again, I would encourage people to read about the practice of proper tithing in the Old Testament (notably Deuteronomy) to get the full picture. There are plenty of good resources on the 'Net one can read which will help illuminate the subject.

I no longer 'tithe' (modern day 10% giving). Some of the money I used to 'tithe' I now use to celebrate God's goodness to me and my family, by having a good holiday once a year. Some of the money goes into savings, so that I am in a position to "be generous at every opportunity" by giving directly to needy people and worthy causes. Some of the money goes to my local church to help pay for their expenses.

[Willow]

norman... I also discovered this misteaching. I dared ask such questions as... why do we eat little crackers and drink juice and call it communion? And... where did the image of the Madonna and child really come from? And... why do we tithe when the NT doesn't seem to teach it. And... why does one person stand elevated in front of a crowd of others? Where did the modern defiition of church heirarchy come from? More questions that I can't think of were rambling in my head...

The things I discovered were enlightening and fascinating! Anyway... it's always fun to find someone who asks the same types of questions and looks at them from outside of tradition. When I asked pastors some of these questions (before finally leaving the ministry), I always got a cold stare and a cautionary word about heresy. If God is so big... why can't He handle honest probing questions?

[Hope 98]

If God is so big... why can't He handle honest probing questions?


He CAN handle honest probing questions - but you know that.

God is big...preachers who think they're gods are small. No, wait, I think someone here calls them "pasturds"...yah -that's it.

[Willow]

That's right Hope!!!

[Anna Marta]

I dared ask such questions as... why do we eat little crackers and drink juice and call it communion? And... where did the image of the Madonna and child really come from? And... why do we tithe when the NT doesn't seem to teach it. And... why does one person stand elevated in front of a crowd of others? Where did the modern defiition of church heirarchy come from? More questions that I can't think of were rambling in my head...

The things I discovered were enlightening and fascinating!

Me too Willow!

The more questions that came up in my head and the more I researched, the more I discovered just how far "the church" has away from its' Root in Christ.

When I realized that many of the practices and doctrines handed down by the church for hundreds of years came from a highly questionable, if not outright false, root, I actually felt sick.

I marvel at the whole church Christmas/Easter/Christian calendar thing. It supports things brought in by pagan influences. I was shocked to find out that an entire industry based on religion had fooled me into thinking my Savior was born in December!

I just know that we continue to meet a lot of people who are asking the same questions and who yearn for something more authentic.

[Willow]

I just know that we continue to meet a lot of people who are asking the same questions and who yearn for something more authentic.

Maybe if there are enough of us... there will be some kind of alternative to church that we all can live with, eh?

[Spiny Norman]

Maybe if there are enough of us... there will be some kind of alternative to church that we all can live with, eh?
There is ... its called the Body of Christ ... we're already a part of it, and people who are in it can be found inside and outside of "organised church" life. :)

[Willow]

And here we all are in cyberland too.

[Doug64]

Yes we are .... cyberland USA and other parts of the world.

We were all under the impression that the pastors knew the Bible and were leading us in the right direction. Now that we know better in many cases, we are free to come and go as we please, to give or not give as we please.

Our giving is totally to food pantries locally and an occasional donation to some other charity. No worries about any 10 % here, either.

Doug64

[Anna Marta]

There is ... its called the Body of Christ ... we're already a part of it, and people who are in it can be found inside and outside of "organised church" life. :)

Absolutely right Norman! However, as Willow intimates, there is a yearning for an authentic expression of Christ's Body (outside organized church) that fulfills our God instilled need for community and fellowship with others.

I cannot find another word as good as "yearning" to describe my deepest desire to find such a gathering of people with whom I can share my passion and love of God, express it in corporate worship and learn and grow together as we try and fail to apply God's Word and love in our daily lives.

I want to be:

Safe and transparent without fear while developing a closer relationship with Father God and others
Loved for who I am now
Able to love others and share in the mutual expressions of God's Spirit as He ministers to individuals in their need through His Spiritual wisdom and practical help
Encouraged to continue trying to allow God to transform me
Among people who will acknowledge along with me, both my failures and my achievements without putting me down for not being perfect nor be jealous of my successes
Able to study the bible in context with others seeking its deeper meanings without being dictated to or forced to accept someone's opinion of it
In relationship with others as we discover who we are and what God is doing and prepare ourselves in practical everyday life ways to join Him (in garages, offices, beauty salons, kitchens, schools) - instead of indulging in big ideas and huge campaigns to change the world or save the nation.
Able to cultivate hope and suffer together with others as we experience the challenges of the reality of how hard life in this world is -with others who want to work to rid ourselves of hatred, bitterness and resentment.


I wonder what others are yearning for. I have taken the time to list my own. I am interested to hear the yearnings and desires of others.

Anna Marta

[Reg]

Me too Willow!

The more questions that came up in my head and the more I researched, the more I discovered just how far "the church" has away from its' Root in Christ.

When I realized that many of the practices and doctrines handed down by the church for hundreds of years came from a highly questionable, if not outright false, root, I actually felt sick.

I marvel at the whole church Christmas/Easter/Christian calendar thing. It supports things brought in by pagan influences. I was shocked to find out that an entire industry based on religion had fooled me into thinking my Savior was born in December!

I just know that we continue to meet a lot of people who are asking the same questions and who yearn for something more authentic.
Amy & AM,

This book gives all those details.

Pagan Christianity?: Exploring the Roots of Our Church Practices
by Frank Viola (Author), George Barna (Author)
http://www.amazon.com/Pagan-Christianity-Exploring-Church-Practices/dp/141431485X/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1215179259&sr=1-1

In fact, there are a number of similar books like this one.

Christianity: The Origins of a Pagan Religion by Philippe Walter
http://www.amazon.com/Christianity-Origins-Religion-Philippe-Walter/dp/1594770964/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1215179259&sr=1-5

Even though the church I exited was abusive, it did teach a lot of these things.

[Reg]

Absolutely right Norman! However, as Willow intimates, there is a yearning for an authentic expression of Christ's Body (outside organized church) that fulfills our God instilled need for community and fellowship with others.

I cannot find another word as good as "yearning" to describe my deepest desire to find such a gathering of people with whom I can share my passion and love of God, express it in corporate worship and learn and grow together as we try and fail to apply God's Word and love in our daily lives.

I want to be:

Safe and transparent without fear while developing a closer relationship with Father God and others
Loved for who I am now
Able to love others and share in the mutual expressions of God's Spirit as He ministers to individuals in their need through His Spiritual wisdom and practical help
Encouraged to continue trying to allow God to transform me
Among people who will acknowledge along with me, both my failures and my achievements without putting me down for not being perfect nor be jealous of my successes = ACCEPTANCE!
Able to study the bible in context with others seeking its deeper meanings without being dictated to or forced to accept someone's opinion of it
In relationship with others as we discover who we are and what God is doing and prepare ourselves in practical everyday life ways to join Him (in garages, offices, beauty salons, kitchens, schools) - instead of indulging in big ideas and huge campaigns to change the world or save the nation.
Able to cultivate hope and suffer together with others as we experience the challenges of the reality of how hard life in this world is -with others who want to work to rid ourselves of hatred, bitterness and resentment.


I wonder what others are yearning for. I have taken the time to list my own. I am interested to hear the yearnings and desires of others.

Anna Marta
Great list AM.

I have a similar "yearning". Basically as you have said, To worship God as He wants to be worshipped without any hypocrisy in love, with mercy and truth.

To be in relationship with Safe - AUTHENTIC Believers who love me as they love themselves. To be ACCEPTED for who I am without any coercive persuasion from any source in a real community not a pseudo community.

To grow in grace & knowledge of our Lord & Saviour with those who eagerly search the scriptures to understand those things that are written as God wants us to.

To help & support one another with their needs in life, not necessarily their wants.

To be able to share what's on my heart without any fear of judgement, condemnation or reprisal. Don't try to fix me. Just accept my reality and really listen rather than just hear me.

I have found some of that at Celebrate Recovery. It's not perfect, but other than this place it is the best FTF to help fill this "yearing" I have. As we have said here often, it seems we have to start something ourselves to get to the place we all seem to yearn.

[JaniceB]

I cannot find another word as good as "yearning" to describe my deepest desire to find such a gathering of people with whom I can share my passion and love of God, express it in corporate worship and learn and grow together as we try and fail to apply God's Word and love in our daily lives.

Yearning is a great word! That's the reason I keep checking this forum and contributing to it. I get some of that yearning satisfied. Anna Marta defined my yearning to a T.

Thank you all for being there!

JaniceB

[Anna Marta]

Reg,

Great references, I plan to dig in and do some additional reading. Maybe I will come back to take advantage of some of your wisdom... ;)

I realize as I read the posts and responses how unique this place is - for me, anyway.

The people I meet here are authentic, or are well on their way to becoming so. I am learning in ways that are simply not possible when one is face to face and sharing the same living areas day in and day out... We cannot accept or reject or judge based on physical appearance, age, race, color, gender or any other visible means of evaluation... I guess that is part of the gift of the Internet. :)

I know that I have chosen to carefully open myself and begin to pour out the deeper things in my heart. I am a deep thinker, at heart, a pretty serious person who loves to have fun also. My well can be as deep as my funny bone can be slap stick silly - when I loosen the cords.

I guess this is the long way around of saying thank you. :D

[Spiny Norman]

I wonder if a moderator might want to split out the "yearnings" posts from this thread into their own? Or perhaps, if others agree, we could re-post our thoughts on that subject into another thread?

Anyway ... my "yearnings" ...

* to be in a place where my intellect (my desire to think about God in logical and concrete ways) is not dismissed by others as a hinderance to faith, but rather, to be in a place where intellect and clear thinking and sound theology are celebrated (I've found this in a couple of places on the Internet, but not in a church unfortunately)

* to be able to grasp somehow the total "otherness" of God, yet still be able to relate to Him through my relationship with Jesus (thank God for Jesus! thank God that He made Himself known to us in a form that we could relate to)

* to increase in grace and, in turn, to be around others who are also increasing in grace

* one day ... to stand before God and to directly experience His acceptance and love (I have this today in small measure, but it is but a shadow of things to come I expect)

[Willow]

Reg... I have the Frank Viola book in my library. I got it a few years ago when the search was fresh for me... those mysterious rituals...

Thanks for the other reference as well!

Amy & AM,

This book gives all those details.

Pagan Christianity?: Exploring the Roots of Our Church Practices
by Frank Viola (Author), George Barna (Author)
http://www.amazon.com/Pagan-Christianity-Exploring-Church-Practices/dp/141431485X/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1215179259&sr=1-1

In fact, there are a number of similar books like this one.

Christianity: The Origins of a Pagan Religion by Philippe Walter
http://www.amazon.com/Christianity-Origins-Religion-Philippe-Walter/dp/1594770964/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1215179259&sr=1-5

Even though the church I exited was abusive, it did teach a lot of these things.

[FreeinJesus]

Everyone, thanks for sharing! :) I learn a lot from everyone here.

I have a yearning to......

I'm not really sure right now. I really don't yearn to be with a "church" at this point, but more to be & have relationships w/ those who have suffered in a similiar way as us. I guess what I yearn for is to "relate".....hence, I'm yearning for "relationships".????

At this point for myself, it's easier to know what I don't want...I think of the ways of xabusive church & I know that is what I will not tolerate ever again, God helping me.

I truly believe that God has brought some good people into our lives, they seem to understand some of what we experienced & they have been patient to listen & give input. I believe that when we are together w/ such people that is "fellowship" & when we had them over for the holiday & we had a BBQ/dinner, to me, that was "communion".:)

Those independent/primitive baptists/landmark baptists/calvinists say they are aren't like those *other* denominational churches, but from my experiences they are absolutely NO different & even worse because I was never judged by the Catholics for choosing a path other than Catholicism....OTOH the bible-cult I chose to walk away from, the *pastor* became our judge, jury & executioner.:(:mad: We experienced no mercy, understanding or compassion & as far as I'm concerned they can "quote scripture" til judgment day & it doesn't mean a thing to me, it's nothing but a bunch of hot air to make themselves appear "more righteous" than other believers.

I have no desire to join a "church" whatsoever, though I wouldn't mind just attending for a "corporate worship" from time to time...though I don't even know if I agree w/ that concept considering Christ said, "where two or three are gathered there am I...." & "the kingdom is within you"..

I guess it's a journey.:confused:

[Reg]

Consider this "thinking out loud"...

12 steps - person with addiction problem takes the problem to the group to get help for the problem. Person learns that GIVING help to others with the same problem is a big part of how he RECEIVES the help he needs. My suspicion is that the program works because there is NO DISCONNECT between giving and receiving, the process is so interdependent that neither the giver nor receiver could separate their portion in order to measure it.

Church programs tend to be created so that the giving and receiving can be measured. The measuring process requires a shut-down of function that dooms the program from the start.

Organizations generally assume that people will only perform once they are motivated by the promise of a reward or threat of a punishment. It's such a deeply rooted assumption of our culture, it is rare that people allow the thought to cross their minds that it may not be at all Godly.

Personally - I believe that the gospel is the good news that God loves us so much that when we accept that love, we are compelled to return it and as soon as we are connected to that process of constant exchange, we become God's instruments, powered to do His will by virtue of that process where loving and being loved are so entwined that stopping to measure how much goes in which direction destroys both.

We love because He first loved us. And we grow to become what he created us to be in the first place. That "thing" that he proclaimed "very good!"

By allowing God to love us we become more perfectly who we are to the point that our doing what God's love compels us to do is as automatic as breathing. If you really want to stretch the metaphor, recognize how often we cough, sneeze, sniffle, and snore. - i.e. we don't become completely 100% perfect.

We do get to a point of recognizing that TRYING to breathe interferes with the work our lungs have known how to do from the moment we left the womb, without us ever having to teach them.

Have I gone off on a tangent? or is this a thin and spindly limb?
Checking out some points on tithing, I came upon this thread. It is pregnant with a lot of poignant points.

Hope, you have said a lot of things here that got my gray matter thinking.

I checked out this thread to understand how learning happens. I think that was more the way it was in Apostolic times. How different is this than what happens in church today? Imagine a 30 minute Q & A at the end of every sermon? :eek:

What IS Interactive Teaching?
http://www.bedu.com/interactive.html

Discovering Interactive Teaching
http://www.solidrock.net/library/anderson/essays/discovering.interactive.teaching.php