I've fallen & I can't get up

[Hope 98]

I am feeling so horrible right now - I wish I could crawl out of my own skin and my own head and heart.

I left church before the end of Sunday school. Maybe I shouldn't have gone in the first place. I knew last night that I didn't belong there.

I don't want to bore you with the same long stupid story - bottom line is that I can't keep trying to forgive. I hate. I've prayed and chosen and believed but last night I couldn't take another step in that direction.

If I can't forgive, God doesn't forgive me either. At least that's what I hear. It doesn't always seem to fit with other things I hear, but that's what I've heard the most of recently. So I fail. My faith is gone. My salvation is lost.

I don't know how much of what I'm thinking is spinning loose in my head, or how much may be accurate interpretations of what I've heard or seen or felt in recent weeks.

I've lost sight of grace. I've lost my sense of direction and safety. I don't know what to believe anymore.

[FreeinJesus]

Dear ((Hope))

I am sorry that you feel unforgiven. I struggle w/ the same thing....I told my husband last night that I think I'm in the process of forgiving our abuser, but then again I told my husband that I also think I still hate xpastor!!

I have bad thoughts about him....but Hope, I think what helps me & I don't know if it will help you, I'll just put it out there.....is that God realizes that I'm trying, so even if I haven't 100% forgiven, well.....God knows we are human.

Also, did your abuser ever tell you "I'm so sorry!...please forgive me???" I know our abuser has never said that to us!! so on the other hand I wonder, well, if they aren't sorry then it's a hell of a lot harder to forgive!!

I hope this didn't make things worse for you...I'm just tossing things over in my head & sharing.

LOVE
fij

[Hope 98]

Thanks FIJ and you have definitely not made things worse.

I have been taught by some that forgiveness is simply a crisis of will, and you simply choose to do it or else. It seems to follow that if I can't think of this person without reacting or even simply feeling pain, I have chosen unforgiveness. Anything less is "making excuses".

Thank you for not furthering that line of thinking.

I've been taught other things that make more sense to me, but those that embrace the "just do it" stuff, consider that "ear tickling".

[Gayle]

"God help my unforgiveness?" :) I dunno...just a thought. Your post just reminded me of the prayer - God help my un/disbelief.

Maybe you're having doubts about whether you've forgiven your abuser, or maybe you're re-experiencing some of the abuse? It would kind of make sense that you might then feel you haven't forgiven him/her.

I can't say I don't hate my abuser even though I believe I've forgiven in areas which I am aware he abused me. Then if something new comes up (or if something he did affects what I do now) I am still not able to just place it on the forgiven side. Sometimes I get depressed, I get angry, I call him a so and so, I grieve what I missed.... it takes a while (more than a few times)to process what happened.

Someone told me forgiveness is an ongoing thing. Kind of like healing.

Anyways, I don't know if this helps and I don't know your situation. But "take what works" if any Gayle

[Willow]

For me... I had to find people who model the type of relationship with God that I want to have. I'd say that today I have a God who understands my weaknesses and my humanness. When I make my brain think of those gracious messages, I feel better than when I allow the condemning messages to crowd my brain with anxious thoughts. the condemning thoughts are part of the old tapes and old tapes are really hard to erase! What makes it worse is that the harsh words are also in the Bible so it makes it seem so true.

[ex-shep]

the anger is part of the recovery. The fact you recognize it and want to do something about puts you points ahead. What I have learned is to own the feelings but not let them own me. I have had to matter of factly recognize the hatred, pray about and let God sort it out or help me sort as he wills.

Romans 12, which may be triggering, says that vengeance is the Lord's. The point is he will sort it out in the end, we do not to be burdened. It is easier said than done, but at least there is healthy out. Hope this helps.

[Hope 98]

the anger is part of the recovery. The fact you recognize it and want to do something about puts you points ahead. What I have learned is to own the feelings but not let them own me. I have had to matter of factly recognize the hatred, pray about and let God sort it out or help me sort as he wills.

Romans 12, which may be triggering, says that vengeance is the Lord's. The point is he will sort it out in the end, we do not to be burdened. It is easier said than done, but at least there is healthy out. Hope this helps.

OK - I read the highlighted part as we don't NEED to be burdened. Which puts the whole thing in a very different light than I'm used to - as in "don't dare be angry on your own behalf".

Late last night I wanted SO BAD to plaster someone's car with "Filthy", "Liar", & "Thief", but I couldn't find the car. And it was the result of circumstances causing a no-so-new wound to reopen. It's not such an old wound either though, and there have been no apologies. So, maybe I'm only human.

Still not a good frame of mind to hear a Sunday school lesson on "tithing" :p

[FreeinJesus]

Thanks FIJ and you have definitely not made things worse.

I have been taught by some that forgiveness is simply a crisis of will, and you simply choose to do it or else..... Anything less is "making excuses".

Thank you for not furthering that line of thinking.

I've been taught other things that make more sense to me, but those that embrace the "just do it" stuff, consider that "ear tickling".

Oh brother:rolleyes:....that was exactly the type of thinking in the abusive church we left. Xpastor considered his harsh teaching "ignore it/ get over it" as preaching the truth, & he considered the more compassionate & understanding human frailty as "tickling the ears" preaching. **SIGH**:(

I really think that type of teaching encourages people to just sweep trememdous problems under the rug. Then those *problems* resurface in all sorts of other ways because the root problems are not being dealt w/, & people are told to just "forget it, forgive it, deal w/ it, get over it!" & all the other BS we were told!! I don't believe this is right at all.

I think for me it's hard to seperate the forgiveness from forgetting....How could I ever forget the damage & hurt that "man of God" did to us??? I think God understands that we aren't just machines & can just "forget it & forgive it" end of story.:rolleyes: I don't think we humans are wired that way at all.

I think in abusive churches the leaders try to make people be like sub-humans who should pretend they don't have the emotions that God gave each & every one of us.
***SIGH**** There's just a lot I can't figure out......
(((HOPE))) If it's any comfort I think that lots of us can relate to your struggles.

(((HUG))) for you.

fij

[Anna Marta]

Hang in there Hope! Your head will untwist when the worst of the rage is spent.

At this point, forgiveness is the least of your worries. You are dealing with another disappointment and I bet you are feeling betrayed because you thought you had finally found a truly good church that seemed to be safe.

There was "something" though that kept you from joining, remember?

Let the forgiveness issue rest for now and just let yourself feel your feelings and continue to try to put words to what is going on.

Let it out kid, there are many of us who care and have the shoulders you can unload upon.

Hugs and Love
Anna Marta

[Elisabeth]

Thanks FIJ and you have definitely not made things worse.

I have been taught by some that forgiveness is simply a crisis of will, and you simply choose to do it or else. It seems to follow that if I can't think of this person without reacting or even simply feeling pain, I have chosen unforgiveness. Anything less is "making excuses".

Thank you for not furthering that line of thinking.

I've been taught other things that make more sense to me, but those that embrace the "just do it" stuff, consider that "ear tickling".

I second FIJ's with that - the "ear tickling" stuff is a bunch of hooey. I, in fact, think that the people who say forgiveness is just a crisis of will actually "stuff" the negative stuff that has happened to them deep inside, and forgive on the surface while keeping their true feelings supressed. This is not healthy.

[Hope 98]

Hang in there Hope! Your head will untwist when the worst of the rage is spent.

Let it out kid, there are many of us who care and have the shoulders you can unload upon.

Hugs and Love
Anna Marta

Thanks - those statements are the sort I needed to hear.

I gotta clarify however - while I'm struggling with a sense of something not quite right at church, the forgiveness issue is another go-round with my former boarder. I can't stand when Amanda connects with the daughter - though my rage is actually spurred by the mom. For reasons I can't quite pin down, I frequently feel as if my stitches are ripped out by someone's teeth.

There is the message from the church leadership that I'm deliberately stewing and feeding my own bitterness, though that comes after the lip service about avoiding denial, being honest and seeking counsel. Of course, few things are more crazy-making than double messages.

I'm almost confusing myself now

[ex-shep]

OK - I read the highlighted part as we don't NEED to be burdened. Which puts the whole thing in a very different light than I'm used to - as in "don't dare be angry on your own behalf".

Late last night I wanted SO BAD to plaster someone's car with "Filthy", "Liar", & "Thief", but I couldn't find the car. And it was the result of circumstances causing a no-so-new wound to reopen. It's not such an old wound either though, and there have been no apologies. So, maybe I'm only human.

Still not a good frame of mind to hear a Sunday school lesson on "tithing" :p

That is understandable. In the early years of recovery I wanted to take Tammy apart limb by limb for getting me involved in the shepherding discipleship movement. Only one little problem. She was not aware of her involvement. There is a great quote from the AA big book:

We realized that people who wronged us were perhaps spiritually sick. Though we did not like their symptoms and the way they disturb us, they, like ourselves, were sick too... When a person offended we said to ourselves, "This is a sick man How can I be helpful? God save me from being angry. Thy will be done".

The meaning of "angry" is unforgivably resentful.
The fun part is not trying to let it live in my head rent free.

[Hope 98]

One thing I think I've know for a very long time is that anger compounded by guilt about being angry grows exponentially in the direction of explosion. AT least that's how it works for me.

Few people seem to understand that effectively avoiding sinful behavior requires acknowledging the feeling of anger, which is NOT SIN. Um - it may not be universal - but I'd be quite surprised if I'm alone in this.

[Anna Marta]

One thing I think I've know for a very long time is that anger compounded by guilt about being angry grows exponentially in the direction of explosion. AT least that's how it works for me.

Few people seem to understand that effectively avoiding sinful behavior requires acknowledging the feeling of anger, which is NOT SIN. Um - it may not be universal - but I'd be quite surprised if I'm alone in this.

I agree. IMO anger is the result of a/several feelings and when one is angry it is important to dig deeper to find out the root. In my case, the root is often rejection, embarrassment at allowing myself to have been used, fear of judgment of others, the list can go on and on depending on the situation.

Guilt sucks! When it comes to guilt, IMO it is judgment we accept, that leads to nasty feelings. Either I am or I am NOT guilty... regardless of what someone else says, if I am KNOW I AM NOT GUILTY, then I can reject the label. Guilt is like a bird, it has to have a branch to sit on to remain around.

Love
Leah

[JaniceB]

EAR TICKLING!

Thank you for reminding me of that phrase. I'm thinking of writing another novel and that is a great example of what we have gone through! If you don't agree with the guy in the pulpit you're serving your own purposes and getting "ear-tickling." Sheesh!

Anger is not a sin. Jesus was frequently angry and Jesus didn't sin. Pastors who use the "ear-tickling" phrase and talk evil about anger are often angry, though. Why is it okay for them and not us? Are they more righteous than us? More Christ-like? I doubt it.

JaniceB

[Anna Marta]

Why is it okay for them and not us? Are they more righteous than us? More Christ-like? I doubt it.

Of course THEY THINK they are - whether they would ever admit it or not. :rolleyes:

Bring set free from the pharisee-syndrome is like getting over a case of shingles, once you've had it you don't ever want it again and you recognize the symptoms when you experience them- :cool:

[Reg]

I am feeling so horrible right now - I wish I could crawl out of my own skin and my own head and heart.

I left church before the end of Sunday school. Maybe I shouldn't have gone in the first place. I knew last night that I didn't belong there.

I don't want to bore you with the same long stupid story - bottom line is that I can't keep trying to forgive. I hate. I've prayed and chosen and believed but last night I couldn't take another step in that direction.

If I can't forgive, God doesn't forgive me either. At least that's what I hear. It doesn't always seem to fit with other things I hear, but that's what I've heard the most of recently. So I fail. My faith is gone. My salvation is lost.

I don't know how much of what I'm thinking is spinning loose in my head, or how much may be accurate interpretations of what I've heard or seen or felt in recent weeks.

I've lost sight of grace. I've lost my sense of direction and safety. I don't know what to believe anymore.

Hope,

A little late with this. Was at the cottage. Hope you're feeling better today.

Not to worry. God understands and He still loves you. That's what's important. What God thinks.

[Hope 98]

Hope,

A little late with this. Was at the cottage. Hope you're feeling better today.

Not to worry. God understands and He still loves you. That's what's important. What God thinks.

Thanks Reg!

I've learned that I'm struggling with a physical illness that is probably impacting my ability to think clearly. Nothing unusual, just a sinus infection, but it's got me literally off-balance (unable to walk a straight line!). I hope I can process what I think I've seen, read, and heard in the past week or so with clarity and the right weight of importance soon. All aspects of my world seem to be reflections in a house of mirrors.

Pray that I can close my eyes and rest in God's protective love, whether I feel it or not.

[Jerry]

If I can't forgive, God doesn't forgive me either. At least that's what I hear. It doesn't always seem to fit with other things I hear, but that's what I've heard the most of recently. So I fail. My faith is gone. My salvation is lost.



I've lost sight of grace. I've lost my sense of direction and safety. I don't know what to believe anymore.

Once in a Saintly passion
I cried in desperate grief
Oh Lord ,,, my heart is black with guile
Of Sinners I am chief !!!!

Then stooped my guardian angel
And whispered from behind,,,
Vanity my little man
Your nothing of the kind
;)

[Janice]

((((((((((((((((HOPE)))))))))))))))
yes! close your eyes and rest in God's protective love! My prayer is that you DO feel it!
Hang in there sweetie. You're a wonderful person.

[Hope 98]

((((((((((((((((HOPE)))))))))))))))
yes! close your eyes and rest in God's protective love! My prayer is that you DO feel it!
Hang in there sweetie. You're a wonderful person.
Aw Janice that means a lot to me!

[hornblower]

I am feeling so horrible right now - I wish I could crawl out of my own skin and my own head and heart.

I left church before the end of Sunday school. Maybe I shouldn't have gone in the first place. I knew last night that I didn't belong there.

I don't want to bore you with the same long stupid story - bottom line is that I can't keep trying to forgive. I hate. I've prayed and chosen and believed but last night I couldn't take another step in that direction.

If I can't forgive, God doesn't forgive me either. At least that's what I hear. It doesn't always seem to fit with other things I hear, but that's what I've heard the most of recently. So I fail. My faith is gone. My salvation is lost.

I don't know how much of what I'm thinking is spinning loose in my head, or how much may be accurate interpretations of what I've heard or seen or felt in recent weeks.

I've lost sight of grace. I've lost my sense of direction and safety. I don't know what to believe anymore.


Hope Ive been in this exact same place now for some time........years I think. Its so good that you see it and are coming to grips with it too. I know it doesnt feel that way but I am coming to see that it is a very good thing.

I AM very angry and I cant love any longer or forgive either. I have cut off relationships like with my stevens minister something I would have never done before but its what it is its hatred!

Easter Sunday I went down and confessed this at the 'altar' if you will????? at my sons church service. I dont go there just when he wants us to go and when my husband goes, its a family thing.
I couldnt take it any more the way my heart is the way I am feeling about people and things. I cant handle the way I am treated and the ideas that I might be going to hell if I dont forgive others and I stay in this hatred and unforgiveness.

Once again before coming here this morning I felt pressure to love and contact someone and I dont want to do it.........I think inside of me......I know Im not doing what the word says to do so I am not being forgiving because I am refusing to talk to this person or even confront them about what they did to me I think to myself what good will it do anyway?

So when I realise how unforgiving I am then I start thinking I cannot be forgiven either.

I can only tell you what God told me this morning.........not just me hearing but me reading something similar too about our sufferings. God told me "You can do nothing unless its Me doing it through you." You see that is scripture too isnt it? God is Love not us Hope. Whatever good there is I believe it is God and all we can do in the meantime is continue on being honest about our hearts which from His point of view is most precious to Him anyway.

Its beginning to dawn on me...........what was I thinking anyway? Of course i cant forgive or love or do anything good unless it is Him doing it through me in the first place.

Relax my Hoper............rest in Him He loves you the way you are.........we are human with faults, its ok He knows us and why and who we are.......you are simply like me seeing something that was inside of us all the trime and He knew it was there..............let Him love you and give you the love you need to love others with. Love is not something we can do without Him if we could it would be religion again!

Think about it. Our attackers think they are being loving...........didnt the people that crucified Jesus think they were doing a holy thing by doing that? What we are doing in seeing whats in our hearts is a very holy good thing. Not that we hate but that we see that we do that is so good and we hate ourselves for being this way.

Its all so good to understand once again that I am free to be myself. I love when and how I can but other than that if I cant love then I tell God who and what I am and he loves on me again.

You cannot give what you dont have to give my friend. Let God love on you. Love yourself.

[Hope 98]

Its beginning to dawn on me...........what was I thinking anyway? Of course i cant forgive or love or do anything good unless it is Him doing it through me in the first place.

Its all so good to understand once again that I am free to be myself. I love when and how I can but other than that if I cant love then I tell God who and what I am and he loves on me again.

You cannot give what you dont have to give my friend. Let God love on you. Love yourself.

I hope you all understand when I cut out parts of posts when I quote them. I figure there already there for anyone to see, so I bring forward the points that stick out and I want to respond to. I don't mean to offend anyone or appear to be ignoring whatever else was written.


Anyway - the way I understand what HB has said here is so essential if I'm ever to believe I am sane. I can do no good thing on my own! Even Jesus said it:
(Mark 10)
17As Jesus started on his way, a man ran up to him and fell on his knees before him. "Good teacher," he asked, "what must I do to inherit eternal life?" 18"Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good—except God alone.

I believe this is a concept well worth considering a while...