Hurting a Lot

[nikipinz]

..I don't know if this is the right forum to disclose this, but I'm feeling incredibly sad and isolated right now, and I don't feel safe talking about this with anybody I know. Yet.

Something I didn't say when I first started posting and talking to people here is that there was kind of a sexual element to my...er...manipulation by this church. See, the former associate pastor (and current worship leader) in my church is bi, and it was mostly her - not the pastor - who dominated and led me around by the nose. (Which I didn't recognize at the time.) It was always a "joke," see - she would feel my leg, or whatever. (We never "did" anything, just for the record.) I would recoil, of course, and kind of ask her to stop, but I wasn't strong enough at the time to really stand up to it.

I'm not attracted to guys. At all. Never have been. It doesn't even cross my radar screen. I'm attracted to other women. I've agonized over it and prayed about it my whole life, asking to be delivered from it. Finally, I told God that I would be celibate all my life if I had to, rather than act on these wrong feelings. I've kept that promise so far. (I just turned 30.) And I continually ask Him to heal me.

This, I'm slowly realizing, is one of the weaknesses that the associate pastor was exploiting in me. And I am SO ANGRY about that! It's unfair. How did she even KNOW about it? And...and...

*Sigh.* The level of corruption all around me is really starting to wear me down. I can't trust anyone - no one! I feel like no one is what they claimed to be, like I'm on some horrible Twilight Zone episode about Pod People or something. And I know I sound like I'm coming unhinged - maybe I am. But when you find out that the associate pastor is a secretly-practicing bisexual, the senior pastor is a Mason, and that most of the senior pastors in my town are ALSO members of the Lodge, well...it's enough to make me seriously reconsider being a church-going Christian.

Sorry to infodump on you all. I just don't know what to do. I'm too angry to think straight, and that anger is giving way to...I don't know what. Loneliness. Sorrow. Grief.

It's enough to make me want to drink myself senseless.

[Hope 98]

Um...
I have no wisdom, no words.

Just wanted to reply to let you know that you've been "heard" (or read).

I want to express something that you will find comforting and without judgment, and the harder I try to think of something to say, the more insincere it sounds in my own head. I'm now hoping that this will come across in these awkward words.

[FreeinJesus]

Dear (((Nikipinz))),

It does seem that these manipulative leaders can really
pick up on whatever our weaknesses are & exploit us because of them.

My xpastor used to say that he is a "people watcher"....the abusers have this eerie ability to manipulate because they can figure out those weaknesses & use them against us.

Anyhow, I can really really relate to living in the Twilight Zone! I've been there for quite a long time now, though since leaving the abusive "church" (I prefer to call it a "cult") it is getting better. Especially not having any man, church organization or "brethren" between me & my God...I like that. Jesus is the only one who stands between God & I. I am really enjoying this freedom that I let a supposed "man of God" steal from my family & I.

I hope you heal soon!
PS are you still w/ that "church"??
Love,
FIJ

[Anna Marta]

Dear Nikipinz,

Thinking of you. You are in a very hard place. Your feelings of loneliness and sorrow are understandable.

Please remember this - your Father God LOVES YOU. He knows you and he knows how to console you and lead you further through the time to come.

Feel free to PM is you want to.

Love
Anna Marta

[leelees]

Sorry to infodump on you all. I just don't know what to do. I'm too angry to think straight, and that anger is giving way to...I don't know what. Loneliness. Sorrow. Grief.

It's enough to make me want to drink myself senseless.

ive read your post and understand, i was the above for a long time this year and drank on my own to forget about stuff...i feel like im going back down that way again, im fed up.
i cant say anything because your pain has never happened to me, but i want to tell you that we are all hear to listen, and maybe reply, but sometimes all you need to do is vent and be listened to.....you're on my heart and am here for you
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

[nikipinz]

Yeah. I'm still kind of with that church, although there's only two people I really talk to from it, and they've more or less left already.

Mostly I've just retreated from the world.

There goes the ol' fearlessness, I guess.

[Willow]

Dear Niki... I feel like I'm walking on holy ground here... the way you confided your pain. I've done that here too and have been so helped by the gentle, patient and kind replies I get. I don't have much to offer you except to tell you that you are perfect just the way you are. Your feelings of anger and pain are perfectly human and acceptable. I know it's such a social taboo to have same sex attraction, but those feelings are there and that's all they are is feelings. It's no more wrong than the person who has feelings for the opposite sex. They're just feelings. That's about as far as my level of understanding goes... so I'm gonna stop there. BIG HUGS to you.

Amy

[FreeinJesus]

Yeah. I'm still kind of with that church, although there's only two people I really talk to from it, and they've more or less left already.

Mostly I've just retreated from the world.

There goes the ol' fearlessness, I guess.

(((Nikipinz)))

Thanks for answering my question, though I hope it wasn't too intrusive.

We understand the drinking the pain away all too well around here.....

Just remember, like Willow & AnaMarta & others have said, God loves you just as you are! He completely understands our human condition, every bit of it. After all, He made us & became like us so He really understands!:)

Hang in there dear sister!

You do not deserve to be treated badly!!
And btw, I can really relate to the part about everyone lying or pretending to be something they aren't!!! Boy o Boy....I'll never believe some group that says "we are God's elect....we are God's true church...." what a bunch of BS. I'm fine if someone tells me they are a christian, but when they begin to seperate themselves as being "holier than thou"...oh, I am running as fast as my legs can carry me! God helping me I'll never believe those pharisee lies again!!!

I've been venting...thanks for hearing that..:o.

This is about YOU Niki, you are special, you are loved by God, Jesus died for you...you are not condemned, no, not at all!!
LOVE,
FIJ

[tetralih]

I wish I could share words of wisdom here, but I can't. I know the pain of being exploited in a church setting and how painful it is. I believe everyone here understands that.

Just letting you know that your voice was heard.

[nikipinz]

Forgive me if I don't feel especially loved. Or special.

Things are turning to stone inside me. That kind of scares me. I feel like I could look at another human being and coldly turn away, and I've never ever been like that before.

There's part of me that despises myself for having been weak enough and naive enough to be so easily controlled. But just let someone TRY to manipulate me now! *Shakes fist*

Bah.

[hornblower]

Ive become like that too. I understand completely. All I can do is tell God. I think honestly though that I can see that this thing (all the things) I have been through are making me bitter inside. Strong, I want to become, but not mean and bitter. I was treated badly this week and I didnt put up for it at all. It worked out well...........that person I think saw that I deserved the respect due me and they have evidently changed their mind somewhat. So I have learnmed that saying exacvtly what I think about the other person and sticking up for whats right is good to do and to say. I could have said it in a softer tone and not cussed........my bad habit there.........but still one thing at a time.
Im really tired of being shoved around.
On the other hand I became cruel tonight and I dont like what I said....I became my abuser.
I dont EVER want to be like them NOT ANY of Them!
Niki why do you need to be forgiven? I love you and I think you are very special!

[hornblower]

Ok Nikki I see now I didnt read all of the posts and didnt see your first one sorry Ive been sick this week a lot the medicine is making me dizzy.

I had a very dear friend that some of these things happened ..........I wont go into it but Nikki please know there are other women that feel and have these same problems...........none of us are ever alone. Some of us suffer one way some another.........its hard very hard to live this life and love our God but who else is there really?

For me there is no one that can ever fill me at all the way God does. I know He loves us and will make everything right some day. Its so sad that these things happened to you and Im so sorry that they sdid and that they still might go on. My therapist has told me (with my sexual abuse) that people that are sexual abusers just pick up on victims.
So then of course I think to myself so why God did you make it this way?

He didnt Nikki thats the way it is here because people have gotten so evil. The more they tuirn away from God the more evil I think they become without knowing it. They are blind. They live in darkness. They dont know what they are doing or saying.
If they do thats even more bad isnt it?

I watched Nickolas Nicklebey last night and I thought to myself as I saw it, because I didnt really want to even watch Im so tired of the pain, how can he bear up and still help people and not become like the people that hate and mame? Its the goodness that was passed down to him from his father. A lot of us didnt get that but now we can in some ways by letting God rescue us and love on us and help us recover from the awful things that hurt us.

We love you here and as far as I am copncerned you can let it rip anytime you want its fine by me as anyone can tell you I do it often. Opening up and talking about the pain and getting loved is what we all should be here for.

I wish it could be that way everywhere. Some day it will.

[riverdove]

This must be very painful for you, Nikipinz. I had to run from a church situation where I witnessed the leadership hurting people (me included) and practising things contra to what they were teaching. Things like that can really mess up someone's head real bad. It's wrong, very wrong! The way they have hurt me has produced deep wounds. You too have been very deeply hurt. You said you felt angry, sorrow and grief. All I can say is that I understand the impact of all those feelings. Anyway, just want to say please take care of yourself.

[leelees]

i completely understand what you say nikki!
its slight looking at myself in so many ways!
you're really on my heart at the moment!!!
xxxxxxx

[raven123]

i have also heard a lot about... the people really bulied by the superiour power in the chruch... people ... let them first understand thats .. its the holy place of god.. where everybody is equal..nikki dont worry... things will go onur side
=============================
raven
Christian Drug Rehab (http://Christian Drug Rehab)

[JaniceB]

I'm not attracted to guys. At all. Never have been. It doesn't even cross my radar screen. I'm attracted to other women. I've agonized over it and prayed about it my whole life, asking to be delivered from it. Finally, I told God that I would be celibate all my life if I had to, rather than act on these wrong feelings. I've kept that promise so far. (I just turned 30.) And I continually ask Him to heal me.


I don't see what's so horrible about same-sex attraction or even relationships. This is in spite of the fact that I was the Best Bible Student in my grade all through Christian high school!

The Bible does say that homosexuality is wrong but it says a lot of things are wrong. I still eat bacon with my eggs and do my laundry on Saturday.

More importantly, in my recovery I decided to try not taking the Bible literally. I re-read it in this fashion and it made a lot more sense. I could relax because I didn't have to find answers in my mind for the contradictions--and they really are there.

The Bible is a blessing for me now. It frees me to love my neighbor no matter what kind of sexual urges he or she has. I'm free to learn from people who've held relationships together for 30 or 40 years even if they are both women.

By the way, I used to belong to Asbury United Methodist in Phoenix, AZ. It's a "reconciling congregation" which means they accept anyone regardless--even gays. I was a minority as a straight but they were great people and a great, loving, supportive congregation. Maybe you'd like to find their web site and even call the pastor and talk. There just might be a whole 'nother way of looking at this, you know.

JaniceB

[nikipinz]

I don't see what's so horrible about same-sex attraction or even relationships. This is in spite of the fact that I was the Best Bible Student in my grade all through Christian high school!

I am...actually...kind of starting to think about this. Because I am really horribly lonely. I cry about it sometimes. (At night, when nobody else is around.) I don't know what's wrong with me. I just don't SEE men that way! I just don't. I try to, and nothing seems to happen...
But the consequences of going that way would be absolutely horrible. I have way too much to lose in that direction.
Damn it. Why can't life be less complicated?

[outcast]

Niki. I'm sorry you are in so much pain. I know that it sucks. We all of us here know acutely how these kinds of abusive situations isolate you and make you feel cut off from the world and from God. You are not though. I know that God used this forum to provide a life line for me during my first two years of recovery and even now. I hope it will help you too.

Just know that although we do not all completely understand your feelings, we do empathize with you and we are praying for you too. We love you here and we want to do what we can to help you to hold onto Jesus while you walk through this. You are going to be okay. Take it from someone who was in tremendous pain as well. :) HUG

[hornblower]

I am...actually...kind of starting to think about this. Because I am really horribly lonely. I cry about it sometimes. (At night, when nobody else is around.) I don't know what's wrong with me. I just don't SEE men that way! I just don't. I try to, and nothing seems to happen...
But the consequences of going that way would be absolutely horrible. I have way too much to lose in that direction.
Damn it. Why can't life be less complicated?


Maybe because most men you know or are around suck??????????

Sorry guys I know thats not you ok?

[nikipinz]

Maybe because most men you know or are around suck??????????

Sorry guys I know thats not you ok?

Pfft. I would think that in 30 years of life, I would have met at least ONE guy I was SORT OF attracted to, if I were even remotely going to swing that way.

That being said - maybe. :P

[JaniceB]

Nikipinz, maybe you're lucky because it's true that men don't really grow up.

On the other hand, I've seen a couple of Lesbian relationships up close and they aren't any different from mine. Same issues, same joys, same problems, same laughs, same frustrations.

As far as coming out of the closet and not worrying about it, I think that is entirely your choice. If you want to keep things constant for you, that's great. If you choose to continue the way you are because someone else says you're evil, that's not so good.

JaniceB

[Willow]

I am...actually...kind of starting to think about this. Because I am really horribly lonely. I cry about it sometimes. (At night, when nobody else is around.) I don't know what's wrong with me. I just don't SEE men that way! I just don't. I try to, and nothing seems to happen...
But the consequences of going that way would be absolutely horrible. I have way too much to lose in that direction.
Damn it. Why can't life be less complicated?

The loneliness thing I get...

I absolutely fell head over heels for a man who doesn't feel the same for me. This love business is hard... isn't it? I'm lonely too and then it makes me come across rather desperate, which is a huge turnoff to men.

[Spiny Norman]

I've resisted posting anything in this thread until now because I have a pretty traditional view on homosexuality and it really wouldn't have added anything (or helped anyone) if I'd said much about that. But as the conversation has developed, there are a few really interesting comments that I would like to, in turn, comment on.

Firstly, pretty much all human beings have sexual thoughts, regardless of whether they are homo-sexual or hetero-sexual thoughts. Jesus pointed out that looking upon another person with lust was equivalent in His eyes to having done the deed. I'm not completely sure what to make of that, but I'm pretty sure that the conclusion is NOT that we ought to say "Well, I've thought it, so I may as well just go and do it". We all need to consider taking control of our thought life, so that we don't dwell on things in an unhealthy manner. I struggle with this myself and have no easy answers. Its just a battle. So if you're having those thoughts but have chosen not to act on them (and preferably, if you're trying not to dwell on them), then I think that's admirable self-control and you're doing at least as well as any other person with an active thought life. Jesus is the answer, no matter what the question.

Secondly, re: "men don't really grow up" ... that strikes me as just a cliche. Being a man, I can tell you that we do grow up. Some men (just like some women) behave as if they don't want to grow up. For example, the balding 45-year-old male driving a red convertible (having a mid-life crisis). But I could just as easily point to a 45-year-old woman wearing a too-short miniskirt, tottering about in high heels, and "going out for drinks with the boys" every Friday night. Both sexes have a subset who have trouble acting their age. For me, I am still about 18-25 internally, even though I look 45 on the outside. I suspect many people are the same. The "I" within us, at least in a sizeable proportion of the population, never grows old, even though the body grows old. I kind of like that idea. Its attractive to me. May I never "grow too old" that I shrivel up and stop enjoying life.

Lastly, very briefly, "it makes me come across rather desperate, which is a huge turnoff to men" ... yes, it can be ... perhaps because in an ideal scenario both partners in a relationship have gotten their act together and aren't "leaching" emotional stability out of the other person. "Being rather desperate" is something that I have seen in men too, so its a human thing, not just a female thing.

These are just personal observations, not advice, but I hope they're helpful to someone.

[Anna Marta]

I don't want to high-jack this thread or see it and take off in another direction; I agree with Norman.

I would also caution that we need to be careful:

Making generalizations about men or women, can be hurtful given our experiences. (I have had my belly full of male pastors who had "a problem" with women and made me suffer for it!)
Taking stands on sexual preferences, there is NO way I want to get into "this" kind of discussion on a spiritual abuse forum and I caution again about being hurt or hurting someone...

With deep respect and love for all of us
Anna Marta

[Willow]

Theological/moral judgements do tend to inflame the board here. I've resorted to avoiding the right/wrong approach and rather sharing heart issues from my own experience and hope it helps somehow... even a little.

Heya Norman... I think I just gleaned some wisdom about "leaching" from you. When I'm by myself, I'm lonely... but I get alone much more strongly than when I'm trying to do a relationship with a man. I think it has to do with looking to him for emotional support rather than just having fun with him and doing my leaning on God... I'll have to figure out how to lean on an invisible God more successfully I guess.

[leelees]

ill be honest, ive had tendences both ways, i would only go with a man however but i have had a look into the other side...i think at the moment its cos im sick of being single so its the best i can do at the moment!? :o

[ex-shep]

[QUOTE=Willow;60717]Theological/moral judgements do tend to inflame the board here. I've resorted to avoiding the right/wrong approach and rather sharing heart issues from my own experience and hope it helps somehow... even a little.


General 12 step meeting is to avoid giving advice, but to stick to one's personal experiences. That approach can be priceless.

[hornblower]

I totally agree with everyone here but what I was getting at is that once burned like I have been you begin to loose sight of what real love is. Does anyone 'get' what Im saying?
I know Im not homosexual but then I like women on the most part better than men mainly because and I think this really does tend to be a cultural thing down here and an age thing too because younger men dont act like this.
I think this is a good subject to discuss with other real christians anyway I wish I could discuss it with people here.
I never could in church oh my God youd think the floor had opened up if I ever said anything there.

On the forum I feel like when men speak here they are free to be themselves. Its so refreshing for me to come here and interact with men and women on the same levels.

Let me explain.
The first church I went too I talked in the sunday school class. Immediately the women hated me and the men came on to me...........I didnt expect this at all and I quickly learned ......OOOPs not out of the world yet?

Now of course Im kind of lame in my head so I dont know if they were coming on to me or they were actually talkling to me because I could tell it just wasnt supposed to be done at all. Women speaking.

Its this way everywhere down here. When I go out to eat none of the women talk except me. The men talk and the women have to wait until they get alone. They never have an opinion about anything. Then most of them because of it being this way learn to not trust women either.

Its all exasperating and I wasnt brought up like this. In my family women can speak and have opinions. My father and brother were still chauvinists in ways they didnt understand but at least they tried and thought they were different and they respected women in a way.

All I meant was that if this person was involved in churches the same kind as I was this so often has been the case and also down here not that many men go to church anyway. Im sure thats all over the entire country for the most part.

Its been my experience that men use church to castigate women. Not ALL of them but a lot of them have used church to hurt me.
There is not one single doubt in my mind that the former pastor at the church I was in when I got hurt this last time was definitely of the school that yes women are going to be saved but only because they give birth to men...............

you know that scripture?

He was not openly against women but he didnt cut us any slack either and it was as if we didnt even exist. Women to him were silly stupid beings that were nothing but trouble.

Believe it or not this did not bother me at all I no longer cared at all .........I figured FINE.......so leave us women alone anyway..........

I sday all of this because I have a dearest friend, my best friend, on my side anyway she is.......I dont know how she feels about me any longer.......she is single and always has been and she has a great deal of a problem finding a responsible nice man in any church to even get to be with because they harp on her about being submissive...........she doesnt cook for them.......shes tired she works hard and shes worn out..........they think this is her unsubmissiveness........

I wont tell you what I think I cant write that here...........talk about inflamatory. Now that kind of thing is what I say is unmanly and quite frankly inhuman in my way of looking at having an equality based on helping and loving one another.

My husband doesnt go for it either that submissive crap but then he loves to snap his finger to try to get me to get him something and calls me woman and acts like hes going to smack me too...........

Anyway now Ive go that long time thing off of my chest about church and men. Sorry if I have offended anyone it wasnt my intention at all just trying to say .......
Life sucks then you die!

[Willow]

Sorry if I have offended anyone it wasnt my intention at all just trying to say .......
Life sucks then you die!

Hey hornblower... if the world didn't suck...we'd all fall off! :D