not sure how to take this

[Hope 98]

Hi guys,

I've been part of this fellowship group (small group) for years now - part Bible/book study and part relationship building. It's been good.

Recently a new person joined the group. It's been open to newcomers forever, but we've rarely had new people attend, let alone join.

Anyway - the question I want to get to is this. New person is offering study materials. And while a recent meeting was canceled because our group leaders are away on vacation, the new person offered to have group at their house and look at a booklet called "What is a Biblical Christian?".

This is rubbing me the wrong way. I'm not sure if I'm being a bit over-sensitive, or the newbie is passing judgment on how Christian or Biblical we may (not) be.

A little significant background to add - my family briefly attended the church that the newbie comes from, but didn't feel like we were really welcome there because I wasn't willing to swallow the church doctrine whole and without question just because the pastor said so - or so it seemed. There was something of a gender bias there as well and I didn't pass for a "submissive wife".

I don't know how the church may have changed in the past 10-12 years, or how the newbie to our group fit into that church, either then or now.

Don't know what to make of it all - just kinda like an itch I can't scratch.

[JaniceB]

Hmm...You may be on to something. It's important to pay attention to those hairs that stand up on the backs of our necks.

But I think I would want to take a wait-and-see approach as well, at least for awhile. I find that as a result of my abuse and loss of trust that I misjudge honest but overly enthusiastic people from time to time. Also, this person may fade out or others may become wary of him too.

It's always a good thing for us to be on our toes. If we had been earlier we might not need this forum. Stay alert and keep us posted.

[leelees]

i would see what this new person comes up with in the study, it might be really good or they might be really good but the book a load of crap!
if you know what the truth is biblically and you know what the person is saying is correct then go with it, it may be hard- it IS hard but try it and see what happens and dont give up straight away...if you dont feel right, even the smallest tingle of something fishy then i would go straight away to them and put them right-if they argue with what you KNOW to be the truth then you know to keep well clear...you can only trust what the bible says and what you feel/think/believe as God knows what weve all endured and He wont let you be decieved again...He wouldnt be on my christmas card list if he let me (us) go through all that again! i dont think God is that tight!!! just my thoughts, thats all xxxxxxx ;)

[JaniceB]

I did a Google search and found the booklet. Most of it seems okay if you're a "born-againer" which I'm not anymore but that's no big deal.

My concern comes in under the third and fourth sections which are
3) A Bible Christian is one who has wholeheartedly complied with the divine terms for appropriating the divine provision.
4) A true Christian is a person who manifests in his life that his claims to repentance and faith are real.

Section 3 deals with repentance and forsaking evil. Section 4 deals with displaying behavior consistent with repentance and forsaking evil.

My questions are who will decide what "wholeheartedly complied with" means and who is to decide what "real" is? That's where the danger could come in. It sets up a system that although it may not be inherently abusive could easily be used abusively. I'm sure this isn't the end of the story but only the beginning.

[leelees]

My questions are who will decide what "wholeheartedly complied with" means and who is to decide what "real" is? That's where the danger could come in. It sets up a system that although it may not be inherently abusive could easily be used abusively. I'm sure this isn't the end of the story but only the beginning.

hmmm. thats a very fine line i think, perhaps you could tell the person your concerns and that youve experienced it therefore you know what could potentially be a very damaging situation! i would say on one hand you could just study the better points of it, but im thinking if that is what is being talked about clearly to you then what else could it be saying which is more subtle...i would worry that (not sure if this is totally right or not but..) you know what you went through- there may well be people there who have never thakfully experienced anything weve gone through and that they could get hurt....id want to prevent that therefore i would avoid the book to be on the safe side and try and find a book along the same topic (there are loads im sure) that you can trust is correct!
dunno if this is helping you?

[Hope 98]

hmm....

Checked the church's website and found the full text of the booklet there.

It sounds now like it's even more of a set-up than it did before.

[FreeinJesus]

.... a booklet called "What is a Biblical Christian?".


Dear Hope 98,

I just wanted you to know that a red flag went up for me
just reading the title of that book. I know I'm probably way too sensitive when it comes to this stuff, but IMHO the
title implies that the booklet & those who wrote it have determined what is or what is not a "biblical christian".

I guess I'm really a rebel now because I don't even believe a person has to believe all the bible stuff to be a christian. My believing in Jesus is what shows I'm a christian...& if HE fulfilled the law, what more is there for anyone to do??:)

I know that we should obey the 10 commandments which is good & right, but I think that oftentimes men or women want to put more on people to control them. Unfortunately the bible can be used to damage people & I don't believe God wants that.:(

I know you will use your best judgement Hope. Keep holding on to your freedom in Christ & don't let anyone w/ their smooth words steal it from you. FWIW

FIJ PS listen to your radar/ instinct....if something feels funny about it, RUN!

[ex-shep]

[QUOTE=Free

FIJ PS listen to your radar/ instinct....if something feels funny about it, RUN![/QUOTE]

My intuition had caution flags as well. It sounds like the newbie is playing a shepherding tactic of taking over the group with his brand of Christianity.

Gut level indicators can be extremely reliable sometimes.

[FreeinJesus]

My intuition had caution flags as well. It sounds like the newbie is playing a shepherding tactic of taking over the group with his brand of Christianity.

Gut level indicators can be extremely reliable sometimes.

Yep!!:)

[butterfly]

Hope, When new people start to take over right away my brain yells"Danger Danger"
First of all asking the group to go to their home to me is a red flag.
What about the howdie do and lets get to know you first.

Offering study books?? Come to our house?
Does that mean that the study of the whole book will be at their home?
Gee can you see control there? If that is the case what will happen to your group when the leaders come back.
Nothing like taking over!!! :(:(
Maybe you could talk to some of the people in your group how they feel. Maybe they feel the same way as you do.

When people came to my abusive church like that it never turned out for any good. Most of them were cult type and just plan off on their own crazy bible thinking.:(:( shirley

[Hope 98]

Hope, When new people start to take over right away my brain yells"Danger Danger"
First of all asking the group to go to their home to me is a red flag.
What about the howdie do and lets get to know you first.

Offering study books?? Come to our house?
<snip>
:(:( shirley

uh..yeah...

Our group meets every other week. Our group leaders (a couple) had vacation plans that conflict with one meeting. The next meeting we're planning to have is going to be a party since it happens to be close to the 4th of July holiday. We just ended one book study last meeting, which was the newbie's second visit with us. They had suggestions for the next study by meeting's end! I think we would have been likely to spend the next meeting or two discussing what we might want to look into next.

I think I would have found it just friendly if they simply invited the group to their home for a social time this week that the leaders are away. The need to "study" or "discuss" anything just yanked my chain.

I was really annoyed to realize that I still had a chain that could be yanked!

[Anna Marta]

I think I would have found it just friendly if they simply invited the group to their home for a social time this week that the leaders are away. The need to "study" or "discuss" anything just yanked my chain.

I was really annoyed to realize that I still had a chain that could be yanked!

Hope,

You have a pretty accurate "chain tension"!
It's time to worry when something "off center" does not yank it.

The invitation is inappropriate, to say the least, especially the suggestion of new study materials in the "absence" of the designated leaders. The appropriate thing for them to have done would have been to privately approach the leaders, submit the materials and ask for their input.

I would strongly recommend that you call the pastor and run it by him explaining that it may be entirely innocent, but then again, with your background and knowledge of "where" they come from, it may be something he may want to discuss with HIS group leaders...

That would keep you in your proper place, gives him a heads up and allows both him and the leaders to make their own decisions on a leadership level.

My 5 kroners worth.
AM

[Reg]

I did a Google search and found the booklet. Most of it seems okay if you're a "born-againer" which I'm not anymore but that's no big deal.

My concern comes in under the third and fourth sections which are
3) A Bible Christian is one who has wholeheartedly complied with the divine terms for appropriating the divine provision.
4) A true Christian is a person who manifests in his life that his claims to repentance and faith are real.

Section 3 deals with repentance and forsaking evil. Section 4 deals with displaying behavior consistent with repentance and forsaking evil.

My questions are who will decide what "wholeheartedly complied with" means and who is to decide what "real" is? That's where the danger could come in. It sets up a system that although it may not be inherently abusive could easily be used abusively. I'm sure this isn't the end of the story but only the beginning.
Right on JaniceB.

Although the material may be correct doctrine, once you allow someone to set up a standard of conduct that is visible and others agree to use it, then you allow them a certain amount of control who and who not is measuring up. Now you've got a means of judging others. Therein lies the problem.

While on the outside it may seem to an observer that someone is not complying with agreed-to standards of conduct, you have set up a them and us mentality. No one knows what's on another person's hearts. People do things that appear on the outside as though their conduct is inappropriate. No one knows for sure why. They may be under incredible duress or have an serious emergency that has to be attended to. Putting it simply, Christians SIN. Does that mean they are not Christians? The danger comes in when someone sets up a standard that others can look to judging others. That is where the control comes in. That's the danger. CONTROLLING OTHERS.

Personally, the only definition from the Bible that defines a Christian is Rom 8:9.

Ro 8:9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.

Here are my notes on this scripture....

This is the real definition of a Christian.

YOUR MIND IS NOT IN THE FLESH. NOW IF ANYONE HAS THE SPIRIT OF GOD DWELLING IN HIS MIND HE IS A CHRISTIAN & HAS THE DEPOSIT OF ETERNAL LIFE LIVING WITHIN HIM. IF THE SPIRIT OF GOD IS NOT LIVING IN A PERSON’S MIND, HE IS NOT CONSIDERED A CHRISTIAN.

"Immanu El" means, God in us. This makes a Christian a very special person

In Philipians 2:5 it says, "Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus."

Nov 15/94 UPDATE: The true mark of a Christian is loving God first and extending that love, the love God gives us through His Holy Spirit, to others. It does not necessarily mean belonging to a Christian organization - a church.

The Spiritual Body

"Paul explains it this way:"For we were all baptized by one Spirit into one body - whether Jews or Greeks, free or slave - and we were all given the one Spirit to drink. Now the body is not made up of one part but of many" (1 Cor 12:13-14). This is not talking about water baptism of the Spirit. Water is not mentioned here, but Christ and the Holy Spirit are. The Holy Spirit acting as the agent of Christ baptizes (places) us into Christ...The unity is found in the head of the body - Jesus Christ. And he is the head of the body, the church. (Col 1:18)

Mt 16:18 "And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it.
19 "And I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven."

The True Church of God is NOT an organization. It is an ORGANISM! It is the invisible spiritual presence of Jesus Christ living in true believers. It is the BODY of Jesus Christ. It is spiritual in nature and invisible to the eyes.

That is the ONLY paradigm the Bible talks about when it talks about The Church. That is what many do not seem to understand today.

TRUE CHRISTIANS

The old approach was True Christians vs. the rest of the world. The new way is to say we are in the Christian mainstream and many are unaware and have not yet had the opportunity to partake of real Christianity. The old approach regarding other churches & ministers was to condemn them as Satan’s.

We now say we are led by the Spirit of Christ that dwells in us NOT by abiding in a certain doctrine. Knowledge & understanding do not necessarily make someone a Christian. Christianity is not established by doctrine alone, neither does it have its foundation on doctrine. Christ establishes Christianity. He is the foundation. Christ is the ROCK.(#1Cor 10:4)

Paul had problems with the Pharisees in his day. They were strict law keepers and couldn’t see the liberty Christ gave man through His sacrifice for the remission of sins & the death penalty as a result of sin. Acts 6:13, 13:39, 18:13

We are justified by faith in Jesus Christ without the deeds of the law. Our faith establishes the law. It does not do away with it. The law is necessary. It defines sin. It shows us the way to go by defining right from wrong. David said, "Thy word is a lamp unto my feet." (Ps 119:105) In Prov 6:23 it says, "The commandment is a lamp, and the law is light."

The law can take you only so far, it cannot save you. We need to serve and obey God from the heart out of love for Him. We obey Him more because we want to not because we have to.
Rom 8:3

Righteousness comes through Christ NOT by keeping the law. How did I receive the Spirit of God? By keeping the law or by faith in the sacrifice of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness & remission of my past sins? Obviously by faith in Jesus Christ.
Gal 2:21, Rom 8:2

We need to look for our blind spots; individually and collectively.
1Cor 11:28,31, Gal 6:4, Hag 1:5, Prov 21:2, 16:2, Luke 18:11, Rev 3:17

We are refocusing. Our main focus in the future will be on RELATIONSHIPS which is the most important thing. In reality, the 10 Commandments are really laws of relationships - first toward God and then man.

[Elisabeth]

uh..yeah...

Our group meets every other week. Our group leaders (a couple) had vacation plans that conflict with one meeting. The next meeting we're planning to have is going to be a party since it happens to be close to the 4th of July holiday. We just ended one book study last meeting, which was the newbie's second visit with us. They had suggestions for the next study by meeting's end! I think we would have been likely to spend the next meeting or two discussing what we might want to look into next.

I think I would have found it just friendly if they simply invited the group to their home for a social time this week that the leaders are away. The need to "study" or "discuss" anything just yanked my chain.

I was really annoyed to realize that I still had a chain that could be yanked!


That seems underhanded to me! Like they were feeling the leaders weren't "doing their job" by going on vacation, and they needed someone to "step in and lead!" Yuck!!!

[Spiny Norman]

I'm arriving late to this discussion, so apologies for that, but I've been travelling for the best part of a week with my work.

For me nowadays, the idea of a "true" Christian, "real" Christian, or "good" Christian has become somewhat abhorrent. I've personally decided that there people are either Christians, or they're not. To go further than that requires me to enter into judgements that I'd rather stay away from.

Having said that, there seem to be Christians who are making progress towards being more Christ-like, and there are some who seem to be bound up in a lot of sin and bevavioural problems. But I refrain from calling them good/bad, true/false, real/unreal if possible.

Even Jesus objected when someone called Him "good teacher"....

Are there people who are "biblical" Christians? I don't know. Seems just like another convenient label to me, a way of flagging some as acceptable and others as unacceptable, or perhaps a way of imposing a set of beliefs or behaviours on those around us.

How would one know whether one person's definition of "biblical" was correct?

Even if it was correct ... does it even matter? ... was the thief on the cross who was crucified with Jesus a biblical Christian? I dunno, and frankly, I'm not sure I even care! ;)

[JaniceB]

For me nowadays, the idea of a "true" Christian, "real" Christian, or "good" Christian has become somewhat abhorrent. I've personally decided that there people are either Christians, or they're not. To go further than that requires me to enter into judgements that I'd rather stay away from.

How would one know whether one person's definition of "biblical" was correct?

A big Amen to Norman! My definition of a Christian is someone who says he/she is a Christian. I'm a more observant Christian than I was a few years ago in that I go to church, etc. but I not that different from who I was when I hadn't yet bothered to find a church in my new area.

If it is truly salvation by grace and not works that means that God has to take care of it. Since God is love He'll do a fine job of it.

We could even go deeper with this but I think it would be good for another thread: What is the Bible? Which books should it contain and why? I've heard preachers bad mouth Catholics and Anglicans and then turn around and read a book compiled by Catholics and translated by Anglicans and call it the infallible Word of God. Huh?

So God is in charge and I'll follow Jesus and do my best. Those are my goals as a Christian.

JaniceB

[Hope 98]

So God is in charge and I'll follow Jesus and do my best. Those are my goals as a Christian.

JaniceB

Simple, but elegant - I LIKE IT!!