The Foursquare Church / Help please

[Joseph]

Hello everyone,

It's been a long time since I've written anything on this forum, thankfully, and Spiritually I have been doing very well and a large part of my recovery was being able to interact with all of you on this forum. I thank all of you for your advice and support and I want you to know that it made a tremendous difference in my life.

With that being said, it's unfortunate that I need to return on behalf of my sister. She has joined a church that I am unfamiliar with and I wonder if anyone can fill me in on the Foursquare Church? I have read some info online and I even ran across some claims of it being a cult. Does anyone have any first hand experience with this church?

This is actually the tip of the iceberg with her problems. It involves a cult like figure that has moved into my sisters house as a border 2 years ago and has taken over, caused major division in her family and has verbally terrorized her kids and my parents who live in an apartment in the same house. My sister and her husband are totally brainwashed, it's like a scene from a movie, I couldn't believe what I was seeing.

Any helpful advice would be appreciated, I am actually concerned for my parents well being that is being threatened by a so called "Christian". All of this is done completely in the name of God with weekly Bible studies.
I don't know why this surprises me.

Thank you.

[hornblower]

I had a friend that was in the foursquare church and she belonged to this forum but that was before the spiritual abuse forum was here.
Its a spirit filled church thata all I remember about it. That being said I know its been around for a very long time. I think they have like a board and stuff like that. My friend liked it very much she said they gave womens rights there. Thats unreal but sounds good to me. I think she said there can be women ministers there. I dont know how you feel about that. Its ok in my book but it doesnt really matter one way or the other to me. I think it could be an individual thing like differing from church to church as to whether its a cult or not.
There are foursquare churches here in Texas and all over so I dont know? Sorry I cant be of more help. Its not a cult to me just because they believe in being spirit filled or baptised in the Spirit or speaking in tounges, etc.
Its too bad there are these differences in belief systems and that churches have split up into denominations but to me that doesnt make a church a cult.

Its a cult if you cant leave and you are made to do things against your will.

[Joseph]

I believe in the things that you are talking about too. I really don't know too much and I'm trying to get a grip on what the church is, that's all.
The church might be perfectly fine and I might just be dealing with one individual lunatic that is also infiltrating a good church.

Thanks for your comments

[ex-shep]

It can be a mixed bag. If it is the denomination founded by Aimee Semple McPherson, it can vary greatly. A good internet search should give you a fairly objective fix on the group.

I guess it depends which church one lands in. We had a similar situation with a member who was a small baptist denomination who was banging heads with the leadership. By contrast I had a roommate who was in the same group who could not be more open minded and level headed. The church was friendly. The teaching was a bit dry and not my dish of tea, but not a bad group over all.

Sounds like the situation may be similar.

[Janice]

we know a couple that has been attending a foursquare church for years. They're a great couple who don't seem to have any church troubles.

[Willow]

I visited a Foursquare church once. It seemed pleasant and healthy. It seemed a bit like an Assemblies of God church.

Here's their headquarters link: http://www.foursquare.org/
Perhaps if things are awry, they should know at the headquarters?

[Jerry]

Dear Joseph,,,,
As denominations are different,,,,,,so is every Church within any particular denomination...Weather it be "Main Stream" or "Fringe" is irrelevant to the question of abuse .....There is no such animal as an abusive Church,the abuse resides within the Church Leadership...So the question is ,,,,,,,"Is the Church Leadership exerting undue influence on it's followers,using their leadership position as leverage to obtain a certain behavioral response from members of the congregation ??? If the answer to that question is yes,,,,,then that Church is in fact,"Abusive"... At final judgment God will want to have a "little chat" :eek: with the Leadership, rather than saying to them "Well Done" ;)

Joseph,I do understand how difficult it can be to deal with family when they "Just don't get it !!" but your family is the most precious part of your existence and if this "Boarder" is a threat to their well being,he is a threat to your well being as well.....selah. I think I would let him know ,in no uncertain terms that you will not put up with it !!!!!!!! Tell him the story about the man who came to Moses complaining that an Elder was putting the moves on his wife.Moses thought a minute and then replied,,,,,"Thou shalt not put thy hand to an "Elder" but thou mayest "Kick his ass" :D

Love Jerry

[Anna Marta]

,"Thou shalt not put thy hand to an "Elder" but thou mayest "Kick his ass" :D

Oh shoot! Why didn't we know that piece of wisdom "before" we left our former church? My husband could have done some serious ass-kicking......:rolleyes::D:cool:

[FreeinJesus]

Dear Joseph, I agree w/ Jerry....it depends greatly on the leadership. However, it might do you some good to check out foursquare on some different cult websites such as F.A.C.T. net & others. Often people will write their stories on such sites. I think it's a good idea to hear of different people's experiences.

I get very freaked about any church that is "independent"..I see them as ripe for abuse to flourish. The foursquare church may be a newer "denomination" but are there ,in actuality, any checks & balances for the leader/s??

Maybe you should consider giving your family "Twisted Scriptures" by Mary Alice Chrnarloger??

I wish you the best!
God be with you!
FIJ

[Joseph]

Good morning,

Thank you all for your input, once again it has helped sort my mind so I can separate and see the situation clearer. I think now that the church itself is most likely the least of my problems, from what I have read and what you have told me it sounds like it probably is a pretty normal basic church. However, like you pointed out, the difference is in the leadership itself and is it corrupt? That I will have to investigate by possibly attending at one point. Until then, I did draw the line in the sand, so to speak, with this guy about 4 months ago when he went after my parents and it did involve physical threats.
I am watching carefully and he initially backed up and went into hiding and now it seems he has regrouped with another subtle tactic which is bringing division in between my family using my sister and her family, and so far it's working. These tactics do remind me a lot of the leadership in my former church and are flat out destructive. I did notify the local police but they can't help unless something happens, understandable. this guy was also trying to cut my parents side of the house off from heat next winter, so I am putting a second heating system in the house just for my parents so they don't have to worry. I have come to the conclusion that this guy, like so many that all of us has seen come and go, is a user and abuser, and he is using the power of Gods name to accomplish his plans, destructive or otherwise.
So, I will continue to be that wall between them and my parents and actions will need to take place as things develop because quite frankly at this point I am not sure what this guy is capable of.

Thank you all again,
Joe

[SpinningHead]

We once had a fun thread going about who had the most bizarre church experience and I wrote about our (male) pastor giving (spiritual) birth on stage complete with labor pains...I think I won some sort of an *award* for the most bizarre experience.

That was a FourSquare church. Not much later we became Nazarenes.

[FreeinJesus]

We once had a fun thread going about who had the most bizarre church experience and I wrote about our (male) pastor giving (spiritual) birth on stage complete with labor pains...I think I won some sort of an *award* for the most bizarre experience.

That was a FourSquare church. Not much later we became Nazarenes.


Dear Spinninghead, are you still a Nazarene?

Just curious. :)

[SpinningHead]

No...we terminated our membership in 09/2005.

That was a real sad time for us.

On a more positive note...for some light fun reading of the past...check out the thread:

The Craziest Church Award

[FreeinJesus]

I only asked because I wonder if the N's are a bit on the legalistic side, but I would never go to any N church because I can't take any chance of being exposed to SA...I think I'd lose it & might do or say things that I could not be responsible for!:D:p

SH, I think I read some of that thread when I first joined, but I'll have to go back & check it out.

I DO remember your story on the "birthing"....it was absolutely WACKED OUT!!!
I have to reread that!

[Elisabeth]

FourSquare are close cousins to the Assemblies of God. When I was a member of an AoG church, there were some people in that church that had been members of a FourSquare church for awhile. They are pentecostal, and nothing really "strange" or "cult like" about that denomination.

That being said, FourSquare, like the Baptists, AoG, and some other denominations, do not have a very strong central government. Churches vary one to another. I myself was abused in a Southern Baptist church that was in several ways very cult like, but several years later joined another Southern Baptist church which taught God, allowed me to be myself, and was very healing. Now I'm in a different Southern Baptist church that is also very healing. So you really have to pay close attention to the church itself, rather than just the denomination, to determine if it is abusive or Godly.

Sounds like this one might be very controlling.

[SpinningHead]

I only asked because I wonder if the N's are a bit on the legalistic side,...

I didn't find them to be legalistic...in fact I found them to be very "what does the Bible say? and what does it mean?". There were many members who disagreed on things like Ok to drink wine? or not ok? Pre-Trib? or Post-Trib? (just for examples)

What we experienced was a "good ol' boys club" in the core of the church that amen'd the Sunday service but did the opposite Mon-Sat. :( And a pastor who acknowledged the problems and not the cahoneys to stand up for what was right (although he acknowledged what was right). If he had stood up for what was right...he could have very easily lost his job b/c this boy's club and their wives had the majority of the voting power. It was an extremely tight knitted group. And the church worked extremely hard at their game face to the district. If the pastor had crossed the leader of this club, for sure he would have lost his job.

Regardless, we got hurt very much so...and you wouldn't believe how many people either shunned us (blaming us for other people's decisions) or came to us in private validating that they saw what we were going through but they "didn't want to get involved in all the politics". :(

[SpinningHead]

FourSquare are close cousins to the Assemblies of God.

From what I understand the difference is...one allows one to serve in leadership if divorced and the other does not.

[Joseph]

Good morning everyone,

I appreciate all of your experiences and it really helped, it helps me confirm the real problem which is him, this boarder. I went up at the request of my parents to repair a clothes dryer yesterday with no intention of seeing anyone else. When I pulled into the driveway, he, the boarder, stepped out of the door going to his car and just stood there staring at me. When I got out of the car he stood between the two cars where I had to walk to the front door, blocked the way and put out his hand to shake it. He tried to pretend nothing was wrong with that pastoral grin on his face, I then let him have it. I blasted him (with words), I told him I new what he was, what he was about, that he was nothing more than a predator and an opportunist, questioning his actions, questioning him declaring to be a Christian and in ministry, and told him that he better even not look my parents way and for now on everyone including my entire sisters family, has to deal with me. Then he responded, "I would never do any of those things, I would move out first" I responded, " please do us all a friggin favor and leave then" I then went inside and said my piece to my sister and her husband.
When I walked into my parents apartment they were surprisingly calm, my Mom actually was laughing a little saying "I can't believe he went out of his way to confront you" I explained to her that this is the way this breed tries to intimidate and is a common practice, unfortunately, among certain people that try to use Christianity as a manipulation tool against people (just like my former pastor) to intimidate. Well, within 20 minutes he called everyone in my sisters family trying to build a case against me, telling them that I threatened his life and is throwing him out, totally blowing everything out of context to get the local Christian public opinion on his side. People were calling my parents, and my sister, I was taking the phone and telling them I take full responsibility for my actions, stop calling, I'm here all day, come talk to me if you want! No one showed up, my sister wouldn't even come out her bedroom, and my brother in law is a mess.
After that my parents, thank God, asked me to get them out of there. I am presently making arrangements with my other sister to move them to a nice community outside Boston. I'm excited for them.
As for my sister in Vermont, she has some serious decisions to make, the games over.

Also, the State Police are informed of the entire situation and said they would keep and eye out, do a little investigating on this guy, and totally cooperate with us, which was very cool.

And yes Spinninghead, I remember reading the Pastor giving birth story along time ago, very funny stuff!!

Have a nice day, and I'll keep you posted.
Joe

[Willow]

Joe!!!!!!! You Rock!!!!!!!!!!

[yeshua'smags]

I attend a Foursquare church now. They saved us after our methodist beating. But it is under fantastic leadership, now. The Gentleman that was there before was not so swell. I didn't care for him but I only had to sit through 2 Sundays with him. Aimee what's-her-name was a wack-a-doodle in my opinion, and it made me skeptical of the denomination. But the things I disagreed with her about don't happen at this church.
I do have a very dear friend that was hurt badly by Foursquare...;)...so I guess it's like everything else, you have to just check it out for yourself.

[Joseph]

Just an update, I went up Saturday morning to continue my support for my parents. I picked up my sister in Boston to get her on board with the paperwork for the move. To be honest, I wasn't entirely sure what the fallout would be from my last trip, but as it turned out, and as I have seen before, all the roaches scattered back to their respective hiding places when confronted and there motives questioned. All is quiet, my parents appear strong and of good spirits, and everyone is getting excited about the move (the others don't know about it yet). A peace seems to be settling on the situation, let's hope it stays that way.

Have a nice day

[Willow]

Joseph, I admire your attentiveness and protectiveness for your family!

[Jerry]

Yer a good man McGee ;)

[hornblower]

I attend a Foursquare church now. They saved us after our methodist beating. But it is under fantastic leadership, now. The Gentleman that was there before was not so swell. I didn't care for him but I only had to sit through 2 Sundays with him. Aimee what's-her-name was a wack-a-doodle in my opinion, and it made me skeptical of the denomination. But the things I disagreed with her about don't happen at this church.
I do have a very dear friend that was hurt badly by Foursquare...;)...so I guess it's like everything else, you have to just check it out for yourself.


Do the methodist beat everybody?

[Hope 98]

Do the methodist beat everybody?

I have to answer this one from a valid perspective. I was a secretary at a United Methodist Church for 3 years.

The doctrine stated by the Methodist Church is very basic, and some people would call them very liberal - allowing each person to find their own path more than most denominations.

BUT, they have this huge, horrible governing organization that is crippled and crippling in its bureaucracy and red tape.

AND, each individual church in any denomination can be as good or bad as the pastor, or the volunteers in the congregation's committees.

My personal experience as a secretary in one UMC church was that a few in the congregation spiritually abused a very decent pastor. Now he's in a different UMC church where he's found a wonderful group of people are beginning to build a safe pocket for both the pastor and themselves, as well as others in need.

I pray that all of us here can recognize these important points.

Individuals are the perpetrators of spiritual abuse.

Doctrines are rules that CAN SOMETIMES allow perpetrators to abuse without consequence.

Organizations adopt and enforce doctrines.

The rules of this board are written in recognition that trying to call attention to any specific group or even person in this environment is likely to be counterproductive - thus we avoid mentioning specific denominations and organizations.

If we can focus on the way that an organization is set up to handle issues, or specific points of doctrine and the way they set up opportunities for abuse, we may be able to have constructive discussions that would be helpful.

Obviously this thread has survived and been constructive while the Title is "The Foursquare Church/Help Please". Everyone has been able to see the difference between individual abuses, and to what extent the doctrine of Foursquare facilitates or has been ignored.

I hope I'm seeing this all clearly anyway...

[Lamisa]

I have belonged to a few different four square churches since I have been saved. Most recently we relocated to another state and people-wise it was one of the best churches we have found in this town BUT there are doctrinal differences so my husband and I agreed that though we may visit there once in awhile, due to the extreme gap between their doctrine and our personal beliefs, we did not feel comfortable being members.

They are usually great and very missions and community oriented though.

There is a lot of controversy over Aimee Semple McPherson's life. I have been to the Dream Center in LA for a mission trip, which is all related and it was pretty cool. They have discipleship housing there for people coming in off the street and out of addictions so of course those situations require a lot of structure and rules. So, that is difficult to discern.

Anyway. They have some great points but there are many questionable points in their doctrine as well. Its good to read their history.

Personally I take huge issue with Aimee Semple McPherson's approach to life and claiming God called her.

Anyone who says that God "called" them to leave a perfectly healthy marriage to go and be a traveling minister makes me question what God they are hearing b/c God is EXREMELY pro marriage!!! So, I think that's a little goofy.

[JaniceB]

... each individual church in any denomination can be as good or bad as the pastor, or the volunteers in the congregation's committees...

I used to belong to a UMC church and it was very healing. It was a Reconciling Congregation which meant that they accepted anyone regardless of race or age or background or sexual preference. I really appreciated the acceptance everyone got there.

However, not only are there different UMC churches there are different kinds of Methodist churches and there again a lot depends on the attitudes of the pastor, leaders, etc. None of them are inherently abusive but some can sure be used that way by a bully.

JaniceB