I am suffering with quandrums

[hornblower]

I cant find my spell check and not only can I not spell any more I cant type anyway so if this is like completely wordless babble give it a chance ok?

My quandrum is...........once again my stevens minister.....yeah you thought this finally went away didnt you? Not a chance...........my head is still bothering me so much that at times I can barely sleep.

It feels exactly like the original abuse when it happened except and this is making it worse this lady does not have a clue what she did which is one reason I dont or havent up to this point want to have much to do with her. BUT..........I know she loved me.

She loved me and she wanted to help me.
Of course I think my original friends at that church loved me too even though they all shunned me. They thought they were doing the right thing for me.

So anyway its just a buggin the crap out of me all of it.

For those of you that dont keep up with my life and who can? My stevens minister who is a lady from a church down the street and M church she is supposed to come along side of me and help support me until I can sort of stand on my own so to speak.

I need help with dealing with my ill daughter who is now 37 years old. I love her but unfortunatly I abuse her as she abuses me all too often. Her illness is very severe.
I have always needed help with this situation and thus far all I get in churches is pain and more pain to add on to a very difficult circumstance anyway. All Ive ever asked for is a listening ear and prayer for our family as at any time my daughter could literally die or worse.

My stevens minister was picked because she has an almost identical situation and even worse on top of that her husband is ill also. She is a very succesful person with her own career and she is an artist just like I am, not doing the same kind of things but she surely does make money at it.

I always though knowing someone like this would help me but maybe not..........
My so called christian counselor has a similar situation too in that she has a son that is disabled and now her husband is sick too.

Both of these women hurt me.

My stevens minister hurt me so bad with her knife like poisonous words that I almost went in to suicidal coma again. When she did it I told her in no uncertain terms how hurt and how angry she was making me but she just stared at me like what are you talking about I HAVE DONE NOTHING TO YOU!

B S!

If this woman was supposed to be trained I cannot imagine who or what trained her?
I know enough to know nobody in their right mind should ever say anything like this to anybody. Its the first thing taught in their grief recovery program they teach and that I was told to go too and I did!

She said to me in this very public place (a coffee house right down from my house) that she always wants to meet in..(she used to wear her badge?) saying she was a stevens minster???????????? Hows that for privacy?

Anyway she said to me and as usual she took up most of the time talking about herself and her problems of which there are many..........she said........."When are you going to get over your daughters attack?" As if that wasnt bad enough after the shock waves consumed me she went on and said "You know people are dying and you arent so why do you continue on hurting like this?" and then more, oh yes it seemed like it couldnt end this crap.............
"After all her attack didnt happen to YOU anyway!"

Just writing it out helps me see that she if she is suffering and I think that might be happening............who knows? I am suffering too........with guilt my all time companion.............

I did tell her I was mad and I told her why because she seemed to not understand it at all.............then even if she did.......which I know she doesnt....... it doesnt seem to matter there was never an apology her eyes just crossed when I was talking about love which she thinks is beyond dumb............one of her comments to me about the church at large........"I'm so sick of this love crap!"
Yep she is!

I know the bible says to confront and go to her alone but I didnt. Why? What good will it do? These types never care enough to listen because they ultimately believe what they believe and I believe what I believe. They think I am stupid and picky..........I know they are blind and deaf.

She believes God is good yes but with a different kind of goodness the kind that slaps her down when she needs it...........so for her whatever happens in this life its all from God........every single thing...satan is just a figment of our imagination.

This is the epitome of dangerous christianity.

It makes God out to be evil too? I was brain washed too. Its so subtle the way it happens and the way its presented.

If God is good then why does He let these things happen to us? Well heres the answer to that...........He doesnt! We do!

If God does away with all of the evikl stuff in this world He will have to start over again and destroy everything there is.............all of the little animals all of the pretty trees and waters streams grasses everything AND all of the babies and little poor helpless children will have to go and of course we are doing a champion job of that ourselves anyway.........

Sin is what kills us and hurts us and makes us sick. Whether it is our sin or others, it is the sickness of this world and God hates it more than we do.

So why do we in particular get sick? Well one thing is like me I suffered breast cancer and lost my right breast and the chemo almost killed me........it was only stage one but it was the really really agressive type...........why did it happen...........Im not saying I have all of the answers but I think I do have some understanding because believe me every single minute of that illness was covered in love by God but I was very very sick beyond anything I could have imagined.

First of all I think satan hates my guts and he is a murderer and he wants me OUT of the picture entirely..........this is just who he is thats all there is to it. He murdered Jesus and he is going to try to murder me and eventually I will die from it. Its all a huge battle.
How do I know this? Because the word says that I do not fight flesh and blood but principalities of darkness in high places.

We always like to think of hell as being underneath us but is it really? Sounds like its up there somewhere above us battling with Gods forces to me. Im what the battle is about...........yes it is most definitely ABOUT ME!

Sorry but it is and its about YOU too!

My friend yesterday says she cannot go on thinking that God is not involved in her trials............yes He is involved very much so but He does not design them for her or make her suffer all of the time or make people treat her badly. He isnt feeding her poisonous stuff in her mind.
Her own flesh even wars against God.
My flesh wars against God.

So what is this old testament about??????????
Its about people..........people like us who didnt understand God at all. Not even Moses understood really. Not even David. Nobody has ever understood God like Jesus after all who knows the heart of a man except the man Himself and Jesus's insides are God! Jesus Spirit was and is God Himself and yes Jesus 'felt' like God left Him on the cross but I have it fromn Jesus Spirit that God NEVER left Him, not once did he go, He saw and suffered it even more than His Son.

I ask you if you being evil love your own child, would you leave your child hanging on a cross alone?

No! You would never go and I didnt go away from my daughter either. I have suffered with her even more because she is my own love, my flesh and blood, my inheritance, my very desire for life, my hope, my hearts desire is for her to be alive and well and happy and content, what good parent would feel any less?

Is God not better than we are?

Im sorry that Moses didnt understand God complete love but alas he was human. As Jesus said about John the Babtist.........he was the greatest man to ever live but he was the least of those in heaven. Why? Because Jesus hadnt died yet.

All of what is written is for us to learn from...........they had it wrong and so do we..........they didnt understand and neither do we..........we should learn and go on and spread this good news that our God never leaves us alone and He loves us to the inth degree. We are free now from the pain of misunderstanding that God does not love us. They, these churchified people are liars.........they are from their father who lies also, he is the devil.............he has come to destroy us............

In this world you will have tribulations but behold Jesus has overcome this world. His love for us is eternal and stronger than any three fold cord can be. Jesus is the Father the Son and the Holy Spirit all in one.
As He said to me in his rock song to me yesterday............"living on prayer, take My Hand, you are almost there"................His hands are scared from holes made with nails
should I not go with Him?

Pray for my stevens minister if you can.........these people hurt people like us because they refuse to feel their pain.............so they take their pain out on us.............when they see us they see scars and wounds from the cross and they cannot stand it............they are running away running running running............I understand I run too.................Gods love for us cost Him everything..........His own Sons life!
This kind of love is hard to grasp at all but it is freely given to us we are His children!

[FreeinJesus]

....My quandrum is...........once again my stevens minister.......my head is still bothering me so much that at times I can barely sleep.

...I dont or havent up to this point want to have much to do with her. BUT..........I know she loved me.

.... All Ive ever asked for is a listening ear and prayer for our family as at any time my daughter could literally die or worse.
.....Both of these women hurt me.

My stevens minister hurt me so bad with her knife like poisonous words that I almost went in to suicidal coma again. When she did it I told her in no uncertain terms how hurt and how angry she was making me but she just stared at me like what are you talking about I HAVE DONE NOTHING TO YOU!
B S!

.... Hows that for privacy?
..... I am suffering too........with guilt my all time companion.............

............one of her comments to me about the church at large........"I'm so sick of this love crap!"
Yep she is!
I know the bible says to confront and go to her alone but I didnt. Why? What good will it do? These types never care enough to listen because they ultimately believe what they believe .......I know they are blind and deaf.

She believes God is good yes but with a different kind of goodness the kind that slaps her down when she needs it...........so for her whatever happens in this life its all from God........every single thing...satan is just a figment of our imagination.

This is the epitome of dangerous christianity.
It makes God out to be evil too? I was brain washed too. Its so subtle the way it happens and the way its presented.

If God is good then why does He let these things happen to us? Well heres the answer to that...........He doesnt! We do!

.....Im not saying I have all of the answers but I think I do have some understanding because believe me every single minute of that illness was covered in love by God but I was very very sick beyond anything I could have imagined.

First of all I think satan hates my guts and he is a murderer and he wants me OUT of the picture entirely..........this is just who he is thats all there is to it. He murdered Jesus and he is going to try to murder me and eventually I will die from it. Its all a huge battle.
How do I know this? Because the word says that I do not fight flesh and blood but principalities of darkness in high places.

We always like to think of hell as being underneath us but is it really? Sounds like its up there somewhere above us battling with Gods forces to me. Im what the battle is about...........yes it is most definitely ABOUT ME!

Sorry but it is and its about YOU too!

So what is this old testament about??????????
Its about people..........people like us who didnt understand God at all. Not even Moses understood really. Not even David. Nobody has ever understood God like Jesus after all who knows the heart of a man except the man Himself and Jesus's insides are God! Jesus Spirit was and is God Himself and yes Jesus 'felt' like God left Him on the cross but I have it fromn Jesus Spirit that God NEVER left Him, not once did he go, He saw and suffered it even more than His Son.

....we should learn and go on and spread this good news that our God never leaves us alone and He loves us to the inth degree. We are free now from the pain of misunderstanding that God does not love us. They, these churchified people are liars.........they are from their father who lies also, he is the devil.............he has come to destroy us............

Pray for my stevens minister if you can[COLOR="red"].........these people hurt people like us because they refuse to feel their pain.............so they take their pain out on us....[/COLOR.....This kind of love is hard to grasp at all but it is freely given to us we are His children!

Yes Hornblower! I was talking to my husband about some lyrics of a song...."you hurt others when you can't feel pain..."

I think it's hard to accept that people like that don't get it, that's why when that woman hurt you she gave you that look of disbelief that she didn't hurt you, when she did. They seem to stuff their own pain & they can't feel others either. So sad. I recall a bible verse..something about being "past feeling"...they just cannot feel!! What other words for people who want to bind others to their system...."implacable, unmerciful, slanderers, haters of those who are good"... on & on. I'm like you, in a strange way, as damaging as our xpastor was & those he leads, I *think* they believe what they are doing is right, the shunning, the hurting others...however, there is also that part of me that says "but wait....to speak badly & judge others who don't want to be in your religious system & adhere to their particular "distinctions" is quite a stretch...I mean isn't a murderer way worse than some rebel like me who refused to kiss the baptist popes ring? IMHO they make NO DIFFERENCE....I'm just as bad a murdering, theiving, adulterer, liar. Well...I don't agree w/ that. They might be sincere, but they are not being led by God's holy spirit, also named "THE COMFORTER" NOT the controller.

That's good you pray for these folks, but don't kid yourself into thinking that they'll change anytime soon.....I hate to say that, but it seems that that thinking is a trap.

Also, I read something very interesting, that "witchcraft" is someone having an unnatural influence on others...WOW!!!! That makes me think of the unnatural influence these leaders want over people's lives & then when the people can't take it anymore the abuser acts as if they have done nothing. Didn't Paul say to those people who were trying to live by the law ..."who has bewitched you foolish Galatians?". Now that's freaky.

I believe in God & Jesus, but at this point I have absolutely no faith in religion.....I don't even desire to go to church & haven't for months. I'm sure there have to be good & safe groups out there, but I'm not willing to risk it at this point....I guess I'm just not strong enough.

so....I pray & just hope that God hears me & will not abandon me like so many others did.:( That's my hope.....
I love you Hornblower!! It's hard to recover from being so damaged but hopefully someday all of us will be feeling more at peace with God's help.
LOVE
FIJ

[hornblower]

and I love you free..........why didnt I stay free from the beginning? I look back and I know that all of these years and these churches I was involved in were not at all right..........so what was I doing?

I know my salvation is real free I can count on it more than breathing, which may come and go I have found out.

If you believe in Him He is real! He is alive free as sure as I am sitting here reading your post He is as real and more so than I am.

I have always believed this is witchcraft. Witches or warlocks or whatever they choose to call themselves memorise words and then chant them believing the words themselves have power and make then by their powers or belief in their power others obey what they say.

I dont pretend to be an expert on any of it but my brother and sister in law were into the occult and they practised these things.
From the beginning I saw that what they believed in was so similar to a lot of what the chucrh people were doing without knowing it.

Quoting scripture with their own will being the power behind it.

Many people believe these things to be 'soul' power. Whatever it is and I long ago gave up trying to find out or learn anything about it...........it is all about gaining power for their own gain.......either spiritually or as in many religious circles, down here anyway, its for monetary gain.

Either way it will be judged in the end.
I dont pray 'for' them. I only do what I hear Jesus speak to me when I am so beyond hurt or angry I cant go on any more.
For instance He told me..........what good will it do to pray or wish them harm? No its me I seek comfort for. I seek peace and thats all I am seeking. I honestly no longer care what ever happens to them is Gods problem not mine. He is their God just as He is mine whether they choose to see it or not. Some day every knee will bow............mine will bow now so I will be used to it.
I am glad to bow my knees.........I dearly love my sweet gentle Jesus. He adores me free. He really does. Do you know what that feels like to hear someone say that to me? Well you know what I mean?

I will eventually do whatever it takes to love Him back. I know I let Him down everyday because I dont take good care of myself. This is where I have gone so wrong in going to churches.
It bothers me what they say and think, its always bothered me. I need to not care so much.

I need to get the entire thing in balance. Who am I kidding................truth is I can do nothing except he does it for me and inside of me.......I can only give myself to Him and hope.

I will go further than to say I wont go back, and I ahvent for way over six years Free, I should have never gone to begin with and thats the truth. When I look back at all I have gone through with these people it was long long overdue this type of painful thing happeneing to me.

Its my fault in so many ways because I had my eyes on them not Him and Him alone. I wanted love so badly..........you see Ive always wanted it and so anything I could do to get it and gain it.
But I had it to begin with.............. with Him.

I still leave Him all of the time. I play my games on the puter and bead and watch tv and think about anything and everything trying to not talk to Him.

Why? Because I know He is the truth and I dont want to know the truth I want to run away from it.

so....I pray & just hope that God hears me & will not abandon me like so many others did. That's my hope.....
I love you Hornblower!! It's hard to recover from being so damaged but hopefully someday all of us will be feeling more at peace with God's help.


So my dear friend I love you too as I once loved so many of them and still some of them I still love.

But heres the thing.......tonight my husband and I went to see Sex and the City a very very good movie. It made me cry. Ive never really cared for it on tv I dont know why it was just boring to me but this movie was so great it trully was. Theres a lot about forgiveness in it.

I cried when I saw it.

Then when I left and thought it over. The forgivenes s in the movie happened because the people that did wrong were very sorry for what they did and they wanted to be forgiven and they didnt ever intend to do that same thing again. They knew immediately they had made a huge mistake and tried all of the time to make amends for what they did.

It took a long time for the forgivenes to come from the people who were offended. When it did it was real on both sides. There was truth and growth on both sides. It was not easy.

There is no forgiveness for people who do not think they are wrong.
The cross is for people who repent and repenmtance is to not go and do the same things over and over and over again with no thought about it whatsoever. There has to be a true sorryness on the part of the offender or there is no forgiveness.

Forgiveness is a debt that needs to be paid but what if the person that owes that debt doesnt even think he owes anything at all?

There is nothing that can be done.
I can do nothing until the offender asks for forgiveness. God might be trying to show them but if they cannot hear Him talk to them they are not His anyway.

I pray to be quick to hear and quick to see and quick to ask for it from anyone when I am wrong.
But then also I have to be in the wrong. I can always allow others to believe in anything they so choose that fuine with me whatever they want to do is ok but then because of what they choose to believe I have to make the choice on whether to stay with them or not.

Its very hard to make rules for myself because I dont like rules.........Ive been rebellious all of my life. But I am making one if God allows me too. I dont want to be with people that believe that God does anything bad.

My friend then said to me but how do you know what is bad? She said how do you know what the difference is between good and evil?

I may have to let her go soon...........
she is very confused I think. I agree some things have a weird slant to them and may seem at first pretty grey at times but then a lie is always a lie.

Adultery is always adultery. Murder is murder...........yes there are extenuating circumstances in all things but there are boundaries too.
Im sorry I still believe in common sense and the golden rule.

I will not do anyone any harm.........but now if they do me harm its over........thats my answer for them.

My answer is my silence. Im gone, Im out of there!

[Anna Marta]

why didn't I stay free from the beginning?

THAT is a good question. If each of us answer that question, we will be able to stay free in the future...

My husband used to say it was better to be single than married to the wrong person... Maybe we could say, it is better to be alone than connected to an abusive group/person? We are outta church and staying that way... for awhile.

Love
Anna Marta

[hornblower]

Hi Anna good mornin to ya.............cuppa coffee?

I drink mine like white........I dont know if Ill ever grow up and drink it real.

My parents both families, all their aunts uncles you name it drank coffee by the tons and I hated even the smell of it but now?????????????

I just got through reading an article on here from some lady cant remember her name that went through much the exact same thing I did in my former church. It helps me see that without exception this is indeed abusive treatement that I received.

You know the thing is I had no real experiences with church until I had my initial experiences as a new christian when I was thirty years old. I was in a group at that time of Im Ok Your Ok people at the time trying to get healthy over what I considered the worst thing I have ever done.

The people I was with told me........ go to church.......I have NEVER understood what church is. For me I thought I would be fellowshipping with people that had the same sort of experience that I had. Haha can you believe I could be that dumb but this is what I expected.

Ill never forget one of the first shockers I had was hearing my evangelism explosion minister say to me......."you cant have things happen to you like that! I listened to tapes of people speaking in toungues for weeks before I learned how to do that!"

Whoa!

This man had been a preacher in another church in Arkansas before he had come to this one and he had to leave the church kicked him out because he had an affair with a married woman. The pastor of our M church had hired him to comfort him and his wife and given him the most attack ridden position you can have ...........evangelism! This was the church my daughter was attacked in.
Talk about not seeing signs? I was blind as a bat.

Truthfully I have felt for a very long time now after that last church I dont feel like God doesnt want me to go to church On the contrary I think what God wants me to do from now on is never to BELONG to a church but visit them and pray for people inside them but never allow myself to become entrenched because of the things that these people that are in power get into.

Think about it. We put them up there and ask them to run things for us we pay them a salary for them and their family and then we listen to them and let them run the show.
I think its just as much our fault as it is thiers in a way because why would we do something like that?

As if we dont work hard enough at our jobs we've got to go do it again and get another boss???????????????

Church should not be about working.
I think church should be about encouraging and loving and caring and compassion.
In any case that IS what I want to be about!

Thing is though I have to put myself on the board of being one of those people that need all of that stuff too.

This type of religious caring I have not seen anywhere except one little church and that one was very flawed too its just that there they believed in healing and freedom. The pastor was so humble that the first time I met him he was buying material to sew up his pants at my fabric store. That was nothing to him to be like that it was funny to him and he meant it. It didnt matter to him what he wore. This man was a missionary to Japan for years and years and actually he never wanted to come back he loved it so much. He came back for his wife.

There is no pretence with this man. He is not perfect believe me I know him but he believes in the same things I believe in Honesty, Love, and caring and freedom to be who you are.

Anyway thank goodness my children grew up in church and they know already what I didnt..............its just plain people, flawed, mixed up, even dangerous people. They dont 'expect' anything from church or overly give out to it either. Its them and their walk with God first!

The big thing I have learned is 'to thy ownself be true'. Its just like my family of origin so watch out...........and the real biggy is its not my church............its Gods church! God can grow it up or tear it down whatever He wants to do...........its not 'my' responsibility to take on all of that heavy responsibility to grow Gods people up.

All I have to carry is my own load which is plenty heavy for me. I will always be here for others and listen and be kind but will I succumb to their belief systems...........when like my friend the other day said to me 'what is sin really? How can you tell what is evil and what is good?'

I had to say to her ...........Im sorry but if you keep going down that road Ill have to say goodbye. She is deeply charismatic like my one other friend also. Theres a spirit behind every tree. Everything is a spirit of something. Its like their minds have lost their reasoning power. Im not saying that this is not true (there is an element of truth to it)but at the same time the fact that evil is in our world does not give us the right to go around expounding about it like we have all the answers because we DONT! WE are not God.

I miss the gifts but...........I question a lot of what is going on I dont see it in the word at all really. Its like fads..........like tv.

Oh well Anna.............I love you.

[Anna Marta]

I drink mine like white........I don't know if Ill ever grow up and drink it real.

I miss the gifts but...........I question a lot of what is going on I dont see it in the word at all really. Its like fads..........like tv.

Well, if the definition of grown up is black coffee, then I'm an infant cause I like mine with real cream.

FADS is a great word to use, IMHO!

What I have observed during the past 20 years is that religion has more fads than teenage fashion choices. If it's not one another flavor of "renewal" or "gifting" raining down from heaven where the "REAL final revival" is happening at a place where you can catch that particular fire if you travel, ride or run - then it is the newest way to pray or live or eat or .........:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D

Follow the money because someone is probably making a lot of it by writing a book, putting it on TV, selling the DVD, teaching tape or the CD THEN examine the financial report after they count the offering... (if you can get them to publish it)

Maybe we could also add the warning "follow the press coverage" because it may have to do with fame and power... as a reward in itself. Not to mention any purpose drive n factors or the state of Florida or airports in Canada or fires to be caught, rain to stand under, or waves to ride...

FAD is a great word... :rolleyes:

[hornblower]

Anna I did have an experience several years ago. Im sure that someone will say it was the latter rain. I wasnt going to church at the time because I was going through breast cancer treatments. I had a really bad time on chemo and ended up with a staff infection from the shunct they put in. It was a really bad time but I had a great measure of peace too about all of it. When it was all over and I started going back to church thats when stuff started happening. This was not my first time.
To call it gifts puts it mildly. It was like walking above the earth by about four feet.
I met other people that were experiencing similar things.
Regardless of what it all meant and I would sure like to understand but I guess Ill have to wait till heaven.
Some people told me to go to Browsnsville and I thought to myself why would I want to go anywhere when Jesus is right here with me? Its always been like that for me though.
When I had my first time with the Holy Spirit 30 years ago it was even more than that last time.
What I dont understand is why is it so much at one time and then nothing now? It was all still just me and me alone anyway. I wasnt with anybodies group or anything. Id never heard of the wave.........or any of this stuff.
I really dont understand being slain in the Spirit. Ive experienced it and its fun but I dont think I understand why or ??????????
Sometimes I miss it all but then on the other hand it doesnt matter to me not that much. Whats important to me is being with Him and knowing He loves me.
I just wish I could be better for Him. But then He knows me and He must have known how I would be..........right?
Trutfully what I learned when I got so hurt is this.........Im not Jesus and who or what did I think I was doing? I cant take the persecution that goes along with trying to really love and help people. I thought I was doing what He wanted me to do but then I think what I got was that its way harder than I had any idea and I just cannot do it. Im not strong enough.

Does that make any sense?

[Anna Marta]

I thought I was doing what He wanted me to do but then I think what I got was that its way harder than I had any idea and I just cannot do it. Im not strong enough.

Does that make any sense?

Yep, it makes sense. Knowing you are not strong "enough" is the beginning of wisdom.

HB, here is the KEY, we don't have TO DO anything - we only have TO BE ourselves. That was the hardest darn lesson I needed to learn. I did not think that being me was of any real purpose to God or to other people or the kingdom or the church or................

It wasn't until I got this liver disease and the fatigue that goes with it that I slowed down my expectations. I thought - "When I am too tired TO DO for others what good am I? You see, I measured my value to God and others by what I "should" do because they were good things I thought God wanted me to do. Suddenly, I was useless, with no reason to be of value. It was then I came face to face with me! I can be a selfish little twit. I thought I could coerce God into blessing me... :cool::cool::cool: IF it was good it was a blessing, IF it was bad, it was NOT a blessing and surely it was because I had done something wrong. This was not prosperity teaching, it was my personal theology - yes, I am embarrassed to admit it.

Today after a lot of soul searching and learning more about my Father God's personality, I understand that I am loved just because I am me! I always tell my children that all they have to do for me to love them is just breathe. They cannot do anything to make me love them more (or less for that matter) I love them because I love them! It was only when I was able to apply that to myself and God that I could understand my value to Him.

I have discovered that I have the potential to be a very self centered person and that some of good things I did for others I did because it made ME feel good... maybe even superior? I was not above being annoyed if the receiver was not thankful (enough?). I am ashamed of how I was and lived during those self-righteous years. I was serving me not others and certainly not God.

I meet now weekly with another woman who is on the same journey.We have both left the organized church. Her openness and desire to be authentic spurs me on. We read and discuss books, and articles. We also listen to pod casts on a web site called thegodjourney.com. We come together as couples a couple of times a month and talk and share and pray. We also share our insights with our husbands who do not have the time we do to immerse themselves into the research we do. We are growing, all of us, as we talk about who we really are and what we really think without fear of being judged. For a long time we felt lonely and isolated and afraid to tell others we did not want to go to church. We have a little community with each other and wait to see if God sends anyone else on the same journey.

That is where I am right now. So I can understand what you say and a bit of how it feels to be where you are. We don't fit in any church at this time in our lives. I think we are too real and too honest about our struggles, doubts and downfalls as well as our weaknesses. We are threatening to those who need to be perfect and need to serve an organization or be DOING something to find value in the Kingdom of God. I don't know how long we will be here in this place, but for now this is "it" and we are allowing ourselves to simply BE ourselves and see what God is up to.

My husband has pared down his personal theology to 6 statements of faith and he is not interested in studying doctrines etc. He feels he has fought long and hard to get where he is to be able know he is saved through the work Christ already did for him, it will not be taken from him if he makes a mistake (was not baptized in a certain way , does not tithe or is luke warm in some one else's eyes), God is His father, God is a good Father and he is loved.

Love
Anna Marta

[Spiny Norman]

You see, I measured my value to God and others by what I "should" do because they were good things I thought God wanted me to do.
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I thought I could coerce God into blessing me...
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Today after a lot of soul searching and learning more about my Father God's personality, I understand that I am loved just because I am me!
Awesome! Very similar to my journey. We are human beings, not human doings. The doing is nice, when its brought as a free will offering, but it doesn't define us or our value in the sight of the Father. After all, what could we reasonably give to the One who already has everything? Our money? Our work? No, just us, as we are ... :) ... its enough for Him, so perhaps we can be content with that too.