Did they know?

[Beautiful_Dreamer]

Do you think that the spiritually abusive people or groups you have been around always *knew* what they were doing? I ask because the people I was around were sincere believers, but the things they believed and tried to get me into were harmful to me. My ex said he learned some things from me but I really don't think that is true at all because he told my friend that God told him he was going to be the one to heal me of depression and all of that...I don't know if he really knows any better because it is really easy for people to think that Jesus is a quick fix and to swallow everything TBN throws at them if they are not mature in the faith or care to think, or if they have been largely sheltered from everything.

So, do you think that any of the people who hurt you intended to or knew what they were doing, or do you think they were just deluded or part of a really sick group?

[Hope 98]

Generally - I'd say that they don't know. At least they start out not knowing.

Somewhere along the line, they may begin to see that things are working the way that they're supposed to but they may think that it's their lack of faith or devotion and not want to admit their own failure.

Sometimes I think they're completely aware of what they're doing and they just don't care.

And last but not least - sometimes they're just wacko :)

[Ontheroad]

This is a VERY interesting question and one which my best friend and I have discussed a number of times. (She left my former church the time I did.) There were two primary abusive people at my church: the pastor and a woman whom I at one time considered to be one of my closest friends. She held a position in a prayer team and in the worship team, both of which I was also a part of. I believe that the awful, deceptive things she did were deliberate and that she fully intended to do them. There is alot of evidence that points to that. Her ultimate goal was to make herself the center of attention and the ultimate focus of the pastor and thus the church, and she did not care who she hurt to reach her goal. I have done some research about the Narcissistic Personality Disorder and about Sociopaths, and she fits both of those descriptions pretty much to a T.

As for my pastor, it is a little more complex. He was trained to be a minister in a very cultic group named Maranatha, whose leaders were very authoritarian and who taught and set up pyradmic hierarchical leadership structure in all of the Maranatha churches. Thus, he was "groomed" with the mentality that he had the ultimate say in his church with no questions about him to be tolerated. Maranatha disbanned later, in around 1989, under public opinion that they were a cult. Shortly thereafter, the group reformed under most of the same leaders, only changing the name to Morning Star Internationa.. At that point, the pastor chose not to be a part of MSI, but had the church become totally iindependent, and then he had even less accountability than he had before. He was, in effect, the only leader with no one to answer to and leaders under him who held that title in name only, but with no decision-making capabilites except in minor issues. I'm saying all of this to say, I think my pastor believed he was acting in the normal way a pastor would, not realizing or choosing to realize that his belief system about pastoral power was flawed to begin with. Then he decended into a drug addiction to painkillers and a ministry with the church member mentioned above who was using very deceptive means to keep his attention on her. At that point, he chose to cross the line from unintentional abusive behavior to willful abusive behavior that he justified because he was THE leader, and nobody could question him. Many people came to him to ask him to get help for his addiction and to try to get him to see the church member's deception for what it was, and he refused to listen. He went further and further into deception himself and to being more and more authoritarian, ripping into people both pirvately and from the pulpit who dared to raise any questions about him. It became very intentional by the last 8 or so years, and became worse and worse, but he refused to see his behavior for what it is, because he justifies and rationalizes everything in the name of his "anointing" and position.

This was a long answer to your question. Sorry! I guess in general, it can be either way: either intentional or unintentionally being spiritually abusive. But anytime someone is confronted with the truth about their behavior from God or from someone else and they refuse to acknowledge and change, then they are responsible, period.

[Doug64]

The group my wife and I left had a one leader hierarchy also. He answered to God alone and anyone who questioned was causing dissention and usually got booted out. He also had narcissistic tendancies and I suspect he knew at first what he was teaching was not all correct, but over time came to believe it was all true. Subsequent ministers were trained by him so they thought the way things were done was correct because that was they way they had always been done.

Happy Friday. :)

Doug

[Willow]

I believe that I hurt people in ignorance. When I realized the effect that the authoritarian style of leadership was wreaking on people... I finally managed to bail out, but only after 4 years of untangling.

[Jerry]

I frankly have to say that I think most of them are ignorant,,,,,as far as TBN ?????,,,,,,,,I wouldn't participate in any minestery that turns God and Christ into a "Dog & Pony" show.Especially the lady with big purple hair.
Love Jerry