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Hope 98
01-07-2005, 10:15 AM
Hello folks,

I know that I've posted some about the most recent struggles in my churches (I work for one, attend another). I've also had a few chats with Jerry - and I'm unsure of what I've already shared. :confused: Forgive me if I'm repeating myself, but your prayers would be appreciated.

Late in November, a friend from the church I attend (I'll call that church A - for attend), asked if I wanted to know something that I'd have to keep to myself for a while. I said yes, and she told me that she had made arrangements to move out of the home she shared with her husband of 26+ years and out of the area. She had shared with me the agony of her relationship with her husband and she knew I would not find her at fault. However, she would also be leaving the church I attend because the doctrine of the church considers her behavior sinful. The doctrine of the church also maintains the responsibility to discipline sinful behavior. Had she not left, she would have been excommunicated and subject to a private, but stern lecture. :rolleyes:

I don't believe that her behavior is at all sinful, but rather a healthy step toward self-preservation. We've had a number of conversations over the course of the past three years. And in that time, I've become completely convinced and I influenced her to agree, that God will NOT "strike her dead and send her to hell".

At first her escape was understood, and it saddened people. But rumors surfaced and allegations of adultery have stirred an undercurrent of anger and uncertainty. To the best of my ability to discern - which is usually pretty good - the rumors are unfounded, and simply judgemental speculation.

So now I'm still here in this church, KNOWING I encouraged a member to act against stated doctrine and knowing that the leadership ALSO knows that I know. But this is all coming under the blanket of privacy and discretion, and it is not openly discussed. I can hear inferences in the sermons, but they're not all that obvious to most people.

I am not a member and I never will be. I am not willing to submit to the discipline of a doctrine that is simply not God. :mad:

Weird thing is that in so many ways - not related to this marriage thing - I see God's Spirit at work, and the love of Jesus in these people. It's just this one area that's like a blind spot or something. And it's totally out of line with everything else that goes on in this church.

I think I've been here for this length of time because I didn't feel required to believe the whole doctrine, or become a member of the church. What brings this all to something of a crisis point is that I now understand that everything that God has given me, spiritual gifts, passion, and experience is to do the work of disputing the "Christians can't divorce and/or remarry" doctrine and encouraging abused women to escape marriages that are killing them - usually one small insult at a time.

I could probably contruct a scriptural defense of my belief that God has not made the rule that divorce is the unforgivable sin except when a woman is adulterous(It's not quite what they say, but what it seems to mean). But somehow, it feels just wrong to even attempt that. I want to say that everything that I know that I know about God tells me that this is a "tradition of men". And only God can know the heart of a person and He may free them, rather than give the grace to endure.

I don't know how everyone feels about "hearing from God" in this forum. But I am more certain that I've heard from God in this situation than I have ever been about anything at all in my life. He said "NO ONE has the right to imprison someone whom I have set FREE!" When I asked "God is that YOU?" The response was a dramatic YES!!! There was no room for doubt. Having discussed it with the pastor at church W (the church where I work), I am all the more certain.

I can just imagine trying to tell the pastor at church A that I'd heard from God on the matter and that is what God said... :eek:

It is getting quite uncomfortable! Just wondering what you all think...

Willow
01-07-2005, 11:03 AM
Hmmmmm.... seems to me that your W pastor is more of a pastor than your A pastor to you! Is it possible for you to switch churches?

Hope 98
01-07-2005, 12:01 PM
Switching churches is probably likely at some point soon. I'm just not looking forward to that because we're very involved with the church we attend and I like what we're doing.

The pastor at church W is a very unusual pastor and I've learned a lot from him. I kinda like knowing him as a coworker more than as a pastor though.

Florence
01-07-2005, 01:35 PM
Dear Hope98,
Yes, I believe God speaks to you and I am proud of you for listening and for ministering to this woman who obviously so needed someone who was "for" her.

As Christians, we are quick to let the world and each other know what we are "against" but we rarely let them know what we are "for." For example, we say we are "against" abortion and we picket and preach hell-fire and damnation and make it nearly impossible for someone who finds themselves in an unwanted pregnancy to turn to us for help, but how often do we take in an unwed mother, or adopt an unwanted child? We say we're "against" same-sex marriage, but how often do we go to a marriage conference or read a book on strengthening our own marriages? How often do we pray with our spouse or have a devotional time together?

Ask a non-Christian what Christians are against and they can tell you without hesitation. Ask them what we are "for" and they'll be stumped.

What you have described at your church tells me what they are "against" but does little to shed a positive light on what they are "for." How about being "for" the same things Jesus was . . . like grace and mercy and forgiveness and encouraging the downtrodden? And being against the things that Jesus was against . . . like hypocritical leadership, robbing people of their joy, and demanding a works-based salvation?

Wouldn't it be awesome if your church were to say, "God hates divorce (because He says so in scripture) but He loves divorced people so we are going to love you no matter." What a wonderful work of Jesus that would be!

Florence

Willow
01-07-2005, 04:31 PM
Great post! Thanks for the fresh perspective, Florence :)

Hope 98
01-07-2005, 07:47 PM
Ask a non-Christian what Christians are against and they can tell you without hesitation. Ask them what we are "for" and they'll be stumped.

Wouldn't it be awesome if your church were to say, "God hates divorce (because He says so in scripture) but He loves divorced people so we are going to love you no matter." What a wonderful work of Jesus that would be!

Florence

First of all, thank you for your post Florence. It is encouraging when people recognize that God speaks and doesn't always say what you might expect!

Isn't it easy to stand against something, and hard to do something that reaches the heart of the problem?

Malachi 2:16 says this in full:
"I hate divorce," says the LORD God of Israel, "and I hate a man's covering himself(or his wife) with violence as well as with his garment," says the LORD Almighty.

I have rarely heard the whole verse quoted. It suggests to me that an abusive husband is no less hateful than divorce. Am I missing something?

This is where my heart & passion take me - to women who are physically, emotionally, or spiritually violated. God's love and grace aren't dependent on their sacrifice to a man whose will is obviously out of line with God's will.

I hope you realize I'm just adding to what you you stated Florence, not arguing with you. Obviously you see that God's love for people is far greater than his hatred of something as abstract as divorce.

Indeed, to love someone through this kind of crisis would be a wonderful work of Jesus! Maybe I'm there to be used by God to get their attention...

Florence
01-07-2005, 09:12 PM
I hope you realize I'm just adding to what you you stated Florence, not arguing with you. Obviously you see that God's love for people is far greater than his hatred of something as abstract as divorce.



Yes, I immediately understood that we were in agreement :) :) Please keep me updated on how this is going for you. You are in my thoughts and prayers.
Florence

Willow
01-08-2005, 08:08 AM
Malachi 2:16 says this in full:
"I hate divorce," says the LORD God of Israel, "and I hate a man's covering himself(or his wife) with violence as well as with his garment," says the LORD Almighty.

wow!! This puts a whole new perspective for me on WHY God hates divorce. Double Wow!! My perspective went from blaming the woman to an immediate sense that this scripture was moreso addressed to men who casually put their women away in divorce and found younger prettier samples. WOW!

Reg
01-08-2005, 09:42 AM
She had shared with me the agony of her relationship with her husband and she knew I would not find her at fault. However, she would also be leaving the church I attend because the doctrine of the church considers her behavior sinful. The doctrine of the church also maintains the responsibility to discipline sinful behavior. Had she not left, she would have been excommunicated and subject to a private, but stern lecture.
This is so sad. Expecially, the way the church behaves in this

I went through a divorce recovery workshop at our church and am involved with several divorced people at our church. I have heard many stories. Each one is heart-rending and so complicated and often very delicate.

There are legitimate reasons for a wife to separate from her husband. Abuse is a common one. God has called us to peace and abuse violates that. While reasonable attempts should be made to be reconciled, many times this is not possible. It takes two.

Here are some of the classic scriptures on the subject.

1Co 7:10 ¶ And to the married I command (not I, but the Lord), a woman not to be separated from [her] husband.
11 But if she is indeed separated, let her remain unmarried, or be reconciled to [her] husband. And a husband is not to leave [his] wife. (MKJV)

So here, it is accepted as a reality. It doesn't say she should be excommunicated. Separation is not divorce.

12 But to the rest I speak, not the Lord, If any brother has a wife who does not believe, and she is pleased to dwell with him, do not let him put her away.

And here's the part where Paul speaks "to the rest". Who are they?

13 And the woman who has a husband who does not believe, if he is pleased to dwell with her, do not let her leave him. (MKJV)

Now, being pleased to dwell with her can take on many personal meanings. Being abused is not being pleased with her. Other things can also enter in.

15 But if the unbelieving one separates, let [them] be separated. A brother or a sister is not in bondage in such [cases], but God has called us in peace. (MKJV)


In my case, my wife left me and I was free to marry again. My wife came to be considered an unbeliever because of how she behaved in leaving me. She had no legitimate grounds. It can happen the other way around also and the believer can leave because of legitimate reasons. The principle here is, "God has called us in peace".

Every case is different and all the facts concerning each one has to be taken into consideration in light of the scriptures. There is no cookie cutter solution. As long as we are at peace with God in the decisions we make, than that is indicative of the Holy Spirit guiding us into all truth.

Why can't the churches understand that? I'm glad ours does.

Hope 98
01-08-2005, 12:42 PM
Thanks Reg,

You noted "God has called us in Peace". That's a significant issue.

The woman in question here has told me that she has not had such peace in her life as long as she can remember. That is - since her separation. She has not divorced and she doesn't plan to, but she also isn't planning to reconcile either. I know that she has made many attempts to work out her marriage over the years, but could no longer try or trust. Our pastor said that he would support her in a separation as long as reconcilliation was the goal, but she wasn't able to do that.

I agree with you that each case has to be determined on its own circumstances. The thing is that it is for each person to work through the decisions with God. It is not for anyone else to say, "prove to me that you have Biblical grounds for divorce." It is really not their business.

I never told my friend to leave her husband. I told her that she needed to seek God's guidance for herself. I gave her scriptural support of my belief that God would not disown her over it, but it was still for her to work through on her own.

God may give grace to some to endure a bad marriage, but if he doesn't miraculously heal every person who ever becomes sick, why should we expect him to restore every broken marriage?

I guess I'm rambling, and I hope I'm not being annoying. It's helping me to sort my own thoughts in this situation. Thanks for "listening"

Reg
01-08-2005, 01:58 PM
My pleasure Hope. I've walked the walk and felt the pain.

I'm so fortunate now to have such a wonderful support system in my present church. :p

I had none in my former church. In fact a minister there was largely responsible for my divorce. :mad: You can read about that on this webpage.

An example of spiritual abuse -- Reg Borrow
http://www.marktab.org/borrow2.html