Nearing the end of the rope

[NewmanTC]

I'm not someone who posts on forums much, but I'm can't think of anywhere else to turn to at the moment. I'm in my mid twenties, and have been a member of the Church of Christ all my life, though I don't know if I could make that claim these days. My dad was a preacher for 26 or so years, and went through some of the worst church related struggles I've ever heard of. Elders turning against the preacher and his family, power struggles within the churches, friends siding against us, I've seen just about everything. I don't think I can claim that all of it was undeserved, more like an original mistake was made that snowballed into something horrendous. Dad made his mistake, repented of it, asked for forgiveness from the church, then was continued to be hassled and hounded for nearly a decade later. We even left the state trying to find refuge from it, only to have their phone calls and letters follow us. It was only after threat of litigation for harassment that it all stopped. Now, it seems like the dark side of church is all I see. These events have tainted my growth spiritually, and I'm sure on some level emotionally. Cynicism seems to be at my core these days.

I've never lost my faith in God, but I can feel myself drifting from Him. I don't attend church anywhere. Looking at the congregations in my area, all I can see is the flaws in them. I see infighting, I see condemnation, I see people using the church as an method of control, I see people with broken hearts being tossed out on the street because they are "tainted", and I all the while I see people do it with smiles on their faces, claiming God's love and grace.
I'm at the point where I wonder if there is any real good to churches at all. It seems to be just another system of complacency, ignorance, and elitism. It's like I'm using lenses that only lets me see the negative side of churches.
I work at a non-profit organization that meets out of a church building, and there's this group in the church that doesn't like us being in there. We work with un-churched, under-privileged kids, and basically this group doesn't like the idea of these kids "messing up" their building. They've been hassling us lately, and it was kinda like the final nail in my coffin.

I don't know what to do. I don't feel my faith is in any trouble at the moment, but looking down the road I can see how it would be worn down. I can't seem to find God's love. The concept of religion has been soured in me almost completely, and as such I get no joy from it. The concept of God (entirely different from religion) seems so distant to me. I believe He is watching me. I believe that He loves me. I believe that He wants what is best for me. I feel none of it. It's like all the heart, all the fire and zeal of God has been draining away for the past decade, and I'm running out. It's like this dreary cloud is taking over my faith.

Now, just in case anyone was wondering, no, I am not a suicide risk. I'm not about to run out and do anything rash.
I'm not entirely sure what I'm asking for here, other than general advice. I've read the bible. I've read it cover to cover several times, once recently. Any words of wisdom would be appreciated. Thank you for your time.

[mary]

Dear NewmanTC,

First of all, welcome here! :) You've found the right place to get some fellowship, some cyber-TLC and some input on what's going on with you and with churches in general, among many other things.

You're right about churches: after I was thrown out of four churches in six years, I found a denomination that I liked - but the nearest congregation was hundreds of miles away. So I did quite a bit of lobbying with them and eventually, brought them here. We started up our own congregation, and now we have a core group, of which my husband and I were kind of THE core... We have a minister who has just moved here this week with his family. We intend to exhibit only Christian love for whomever is already with us and for those with whom the Lord will provide us in the future. No more abusive stuff!

If this is what it takes (starting one's own congregation), then that's the length that I was willing to go to. It hasn't been easy. It hasn't been without blood, sweat and tears. It hasn't been inexpensive. But if it brings souls into communion with the Lord and with each other, it'll be worth a million times what it's cost.

No Christian is an island; the Body of Christ needs all of its parts, every one of His saved ones. I, too, thought for awhile that I was emphatically not necessary: NOT TRUE. I'll begin praying for you now that you will come to a place in your understanding in which you're moved to seek a new, healthy congregation. In God's timing, of course.

I look forward to your continuing participation with us, and to hearing more of your story. You obviously have a wealth of experience, despite your youth, that we could all benefit from: a real Timothy!

Once again, a hearty WELCOME! to you! Glad to have you here!

Yours in our Lord and Savior,

mary

[jane]

well,

welcome to this place. There are so many that can relate.....myself included.

I have a hard time seeing how anything in the church lines up with anything that Jesus was about.

advice?

I don't have any tonight, really. Just glad that you found this place.

I came here a while back but I wish I had known of it while going through our leaving the church that we were in.

welcome.

jane

[needhim]

Welcome Newman;
I hope this forum will help you sort out your conflicted feelings and thoughts about what to expect from the church.

It sounds like you have held onto God and that is the important thing in all of this. You are tenderhearted to care for the less fortunate; they are precious in God's eyes. You are right to care more about people than buildings; you have your priorities right. It sounds to me that God has opened your eyes to see people as they really are and not to want to "play church" but to "do real Christianity"...Go serve God. Help people. Share Jesus with them and you will be healed and they will be saved as well...

My dear husband and I have children and both work full time; we have ministry goals and talents (me:singing/songwriting/prayer ministry... dh:writing/preaching/teaching) but have no "place to lay our head" or church to serve in. We feel disconnected from the church but not from God. Read George Barna's book Revolution. It talks all about the the "kind of person" that is finding fellowship "outside the church"...

As far as the church goes, I wouldn't try so hard to fit in, you seem to already be a square peg trying to fit himself into a round whole...People sin, even those who call themselves Christians can do horrific things to others. You are right to be disappointed but if you try to accept them "as they are, rather than how you would like them to be" you might find it easier to accept.

God bless you Newman...

[Jerry]

I work at a non-profit organization that meets out of a church building, and there's this group in the church that doesn't like us being in there. We work with un-churched, under-privileged kids, and basically this group doesn't like the idea of these kids "messing up" their building. They've been hassling us lately, and it was kinda like the final nail in my coffin.

I don't know what to do. I don't feel my faith is in any trouble at the moment, but looking down the road I can see how it would be worn down. I can't seem to find God's love. The concept of religion has been soured in me almost completely, and as such I get no joy from it. The concept of God (entirely different from religion) seems so distant to me. I believe He is watching me. I believe that He loves me. I believe that He wants what is best for me. I feel none of it. It's like all the heart, all the fire and zeal of God has been draining away for the past decade, and I'm running out. It's like this dreary cloud is taking over my faith.

Dear Newman,,
Hellooo,,,,,,,Newman :mad: Hahahaha I love it :D Anyway,,,isn't that just like the misguided churches of today ????? The level of scriptural ignorance achieved by today's churches is truly astounding.Those children you were serving were the most important people in the building ! What ? were the kids a little disruptive???,,,,,,they made a mess ???,,,,, Oh!!! Heaven forbid they broke something ???? I bet God would care a whole lot less about it than those people do ;)

You state that you don't feel Gods concern for you.....I guess you need to step sideways and change the angel of your view....I see a man who God has blessed...God has removed the scales from his eyes and he sees things with a true sight,,,,feels with true feelings....So why do you feel so alone ?????,,,,,,,,,,because you are ;) You see there are precious few of us who see like we do....Frankly this site is the only thing I do each day where I don't feel alone.....Welcome Newman :D
Love Jerry

[NewmanTC]

Thank you to everyone who posted a response here. I feel welcomed into this community. When I have a bit more time, I'll go through and post a few more responses. For the moment though, are there any other book suggestions? I'm a big reader, and I'll certainly check out Revolution when I get some time. Thanks everyone. I look forward to becoming more involved in this forum.

[broken_hearted_sheep]

(((((Welcome NewmanTC)))))))),

I know how hard it is to believe in things when everything around you is so bleak. :(

Welcome to our little family. Here there are no hang-ups, pretenses or anything else. We are here to help one another and bear each other's burdens like we are told in the Bible. Here, when someone cries, we cry with them,:( not beat them up over the head. Here, when someone rejoices, we rejoice with you; :)we don't get jealous.

Stay close to God, because in the end, He is all that matters anyways.

Love ya and welcome.:)
Broken Hearted Sheep

[FreeinJesus]

Dear NewmanTC, :)Welcome to the forum!!

I am so sorry for what you have experienced. I would agree w/ Jerry & the others, your eyes have been opened to something that many do not perceive...IMHO there is a tremendous difference between God & a man-made religious system. You are SO RIGHT to believe that God does care & want good for you, but often, it might not feel that He does. God is still very much w/ you.

Here are some books that helped me, maybe they'll help you.... you can purchase these at Amazon.com & they will have customer reviews, which I find to be very helpful. Sometimes you can get a sample reading from the book, right online for free! Here's the list:

Twisted Scriptures by Mary Alice Chrnalogar

The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse, Recognizing and Escaping Spiritual Manipulation and False Spiritual Authority Within the Church
by David Johnson (Author), Jeff VanVonderen (Author)

Toxic Faith by Stephen Arterburn (Author), Jack Felton (Author)

Healing Spiritual Abuse: How to Break Free from Bad Church Experiences by Ken Blue (Author)

Newman, may God bless & guide you in your pilgrimage.
FreeinJesus

[hornblower]

welcome to my world my dearest brother.

I dont know if this will help you or not but heres some of my lifes story......the part with the church of Christ in it. My cousin is a church of Christ family member my dads brother was her father.. I grew up being baptist but if you knew me youd know I have never been nor will I ever be a denominational person. Its just not in me.

Its the sixties........my cousin lives in Tennessee where i was born. Of course she sees the devastation there as any of us did i that time of life if we were honest and had a brain! She knew somethings wrong??????? the church and the way it should be between human beings was not happening and she couldnt understand it. She started following (I cant remember his name) and became a hippy............her father beat her head against the brick wall outside of her house my little cousin (her sister)told me. She had become a civil rights activist and she could see that her church didnt ever want to ever have anything to do with the real problems in the south or anywhere else for that matter............

She ended up on drugs and a prostitute for awhile I had heard I dont know how much of it is true but in any case I loved her for standing up for the right thing no matter what.

The point being..........just because its church doesnt mean anyone is good inside of it! It doesnt mean they are moral or even that they even believe In the one person that they are supposed to believing in, His name being Jesus!

This is not an easy life being real!
This is not a picnic, loving God and standing up for what He stands for!

Jesus got crucified for it and so we do too!

Read the bible again and look at the parts where suffering for the saints was not taken out because we will suffer if we go to church and even if we dont we will still suffer for following Him its no bit party nobody is going to pat us on the back so............where is the love?
I dont know.
I seek Him and its hard.
There are days there is no joy at all in fact there are years where there is no joy.
I keep trying church when I can but its still that way all I see are the flaws..........
I think God wanted me to wake up and see them!
So I finally do now.
Now I must learn to love.
Not the kind of love where its all rosy because that kind of love will get you hurt again but the kind of love that Jesus had where He knew what they would do to Him and still He died for us.
Im not there yet.

Come here is all I can tell you.

I hope anyway that you will see that He is the only way.

Oh My cousin.
One day several years ago I started crying on the living room floor and I was telling God theres not one real christian in my family at all and I cant take it any more Im so lonely.

Nothing.

Then the phone rang.
It was my cousin from Tennessee.
She said for some reason Jesus told me to call you and tell you Im a real Christian!
She was up in the mountains of Tennessee helping the hillbilly kids that have nothing.

All I could do is look Up and praise my sweet Lord. He is there my friend He is real! What did we think when we started this journey anyway? That we would have it easy? Well you know its not so easy.
I am your sister in Christ if that will help any and I am here for you. Any time you need to talk I am here.

[yeshua'smags]

Thank you to everyone who posted a response here. I feel welcomed into this community. When I have a bit more time, I'll go through and post a few more responses. For the moment though, are there any other book suggestions? I'm a big reader, and I'll certainly check out Revolution when I get some time. Thanks everyone. I look forward to becoming more involved in this forum.

Velvet Elvis and Sex God (not what you may think) by Rob Bell.....

[hornblower]

Velvet Elvis and Sex God (not what you may think) by Rob Bell.....

I loved that book! I felty like the truth at last yeah? My son gave it to me. What a blessing.

[Reg]

Thank you to everyone who posted a response here. I feel welcomed into this community. When I have a bit more time, I'll go through and post a few more responses. For the moment though, are there any other book suggestions? I'm a big reader, and I'll certainly check out Revolution when I get some time. Thanks everyone. I look forward to becoming more involved in this forum.
Finally getting the chance to also welcome you here. I think you will find this an exceptional place with a lot of wonderful folks who understand. We have walked the painful walk and are at different stages of our recovery from SA. It's such a difficult area of abuse to understand. Even those of us who suffer from it didn't even know we did. We just knew something was terribly wrong and thought we might be going a bit crazy. No one else seemed to understand what we were experiencing and we couldn't even communicate it in a way that others could understand. It was like we were all alone.

Well, Newman, you are no longer alone. I've been coming here since Jan 2003 when we had the old Forum. Although we have had some difficulties here, by in large these folks are about as compassionate and loving as you will find. I am constantly amazed and warmed at the same time by the love that is displayed here. So, when you feel free please share with us what you feel comfortable with. At the same time, realize this is a public forum.

As far as words of wisdom, I refer you to James 3:17:

But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, willing to yield, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality and without hypocrisy.

P.S. One book that helped me a lot was "Hiding From Love" by Dr. John Townsend
http://www.amazon.com/Hiding-Love-Dr-John-Townsend/dp/0310201071/ref=pd_bbs_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1204651938&sr=1-2

[Rose]

When I read your message, I wanted to write you to let you know that I have been doing some studying about the gospel of grace the new covenate and the gospel of law the old covenate. Jesus went thru persecution by the religious rulers of his day, they did not recognize Him because they were so entrenched in LAW!!! So they persecuted him because he wasn't doing what they thought he should be doing according to the law!!!!
Stay plugged in to Him and His true believers ones that will love you and encourage you!!!:)

[mary]

When I read your message, I wanted to write you to let you know that I have been doing some studying about the gospel of grace the new covenate and the gospel of law the old covenate. Jesus went thru persecution by the religious rulers of his day, they did not recognize Him because they were so entrenched in LAW!!! So they persecuted him because he wasn't doing what they thought he should be doing according to the law!!!!
Stay plugged in to Him and His true believers ones that will love you and encourage you!!!:)

Welcome, Rose! :) :) :)

I was most interested in your contribution to this thread. You are absolutely right.

Welcome back, Reg! :D

I'm a devotee of the doctrines of grace myself. What a coincidence (not!) that just yesterday, I e-mailed to some like-minded friends the quote below from J. C. Ryle. The book I'm reading now is his "Old Paths," which is a compilation of his tracts and sermons and other writings. Anyway, here's what Ryle said re: what's being addressed here; the emphasis herein is his:

"You should seriously consider what kind of a ministry you are in the habit of attending, supposing you have a choice. You have reason indeed to be careful. It is not all the same where you go, whatever people may say. There are many places of worship, I fear, where you might look long for Christ crucified, and never find Him. He is buried under outward ceremonies, - thrust behind the baptismal font, - lost sight of under the shadow of the Church. 'They have taken away my Lord, and I know not where they have laid Him.' (John xx. 13.) Take heed where you settle yourself. Try all by this single test, 'Is Jesus and free forgiveness proclaimed here?' There may be comfortable pews, - there may be good singing, - there may be learned sermons. But if Christ's Gospel is not the sun and centre of the whole place, do not pitch your tent there. Say rather with Isaac, 'Here is the wood and the fire, but where is the lamb?' (Genesis xxii. 7.) Be very sure this is not the place for your soul."
- J. C. Ryle, "Old Paths" (1878), pp. 192-193. Banner of Truth Trust, reprinted 1999 and 2005.

It's remarkable to me that this was written before the wholesale redaction of the Bible by Westcott and Hort in 1881. So people were messing around with "church" when the only Bibles they had to interpret were based on the Textus Receptus, not the critical texts. Amazing. :eek:

Another remarkable book that's as fresh as though it were written yesterday is "Christianity and Liberalism" by J. Gresham Machen. It was written in 1923, but it decries exactly what we've been talking about here. I've read that book about three times now and it simply astounds me every single time.

mary

[NewmanTC]

I appreciate all the references and warm thoughts. I'll take a look at some of those books when I get the chance.
I've long held the opinion that there is a large group of people that get involved with the church not for spiritual reasons, but because it meets some kind of unhealthy emotional needs. To these people, the law has become their religion. Enforcing the law on others is their worship.

Does this get any better? I mean, it seems like every time I get involved with church people it ends up badly. Is my perspective skewed? I'm open (grudgingly) to the possibility that my long running negative streak with the church really is a coincidence. Is it like this everywhere, or am I only seeing the bad side of things? My concern is that I'll end up even more bitter with time. Is leaving the only real option? Pulling away from the church? Staying associated with a church seems to bring me more frustration and anger. But perhaps that's just the tint of my glasses.

As a side note, am I on the younger end of the spectrum here? Of the people who come here, what would you say the average age is?

[jane]

I have seen a wide range of ages here....

me? big 4 0 .

but I feel 22...

does that count?

I know for a lot of us, it took time before we realized what we were in was abusive.

For me, the spiritual abuse was familiar having grown up in dysfunctional use of religion that it wasn't until I watched my children be emotionally and spiritually abused/manipulated- that I got "out".

my husband grew up catholic and was intrigued by our 'modern' music worship and all the FAMILY that our church offered.

so, in essence we were blind to the abuse for years....

be fortunate that you can SEE so young......it will save you heartache and time that we wasted thinking we were serving the Lord.

Jane

[mary]

NewmanTC, it's not your perspective that's skewed. It's more that the churches have become overrun with egotistical, narcissistic goats lately. There's no way that a real Christian is going to be comfortable or find his Savior, Jesus Christ, present and exalted as He should be, in any of them.

If enforcing "the law" is people's "worship," then those are people against whom you need to shake off the dust. Flee from them without further delay! :eek:

I may be reading books from 1878 and 1923, but that doesn't mean I remember their original publication dates. :o I was born in the latter half of the 20th century. ;) :cool: There are some here who are near your age, but you are correct: most of us are a bit older than you, at least those whose age I have a vague idea of. Jane's right, and I'm older than she: we may be older chronologically, but I feel as she does: I'm actually 17 in my head...:o :rolleyes:

You are very astute in that you've nailed down a lot of things in very short order. People do get involved in churches to meet emotional needs rather than to worship Jesus Christ. This is totally wrong. What came first, the chicken or the egg? Did our society become dysfunctional first and then did these rotten churches start, or did people abandon clear, Biblical worship and then did the pigs take over in churches, thus leading to societal dysfunction (or at least, more of it)? Was it a combination of the two? This could be argued ad infinitum.

IMHO, "situation ethics," whose proponents gained ascendancy during the Sixties, ruined the moral temperament and course of this country and the entire world. When situation ethics became the operating principle upon which our formerly civil society began to function, it kicked open the door for all sorts of evil. It entered the churches and the churches became like the world. The church became "the world gone bad," in fact and in truth.

The real Gospel is preached in fewer and fewer places these days. But rest assured that the Lord HAS promised that He will never leave us nor forsake us; He will gather us as our true Shepherd. Ezekiel 34; John 10! All ministers have their flaws, for they're mere men; we can only know them and other "Christians" by their fruits, and all we can do is pick out the "mostly good" from the "really bad." And we need to remember that things don't "smell" for no reason...

Hang in there, dear NewmanTC. Keep looking for a "good" church; they're few and far between, but they ARE out there.

mary

[hornblower]

I am learning something I should have realised long before now...........People that go to church go for a variety of reasons. Whether or not they should be there is not really my business. I think I always up to now thought it was my business. I thought I was there to serve them and God. I am what and who I am, here on this planet, this earth to serve others and God.........but what I had wrong was thinking that they even had God in mind when they come. Many of them dont know Him at all. Thats what I didnt understand.

All of that is very hard for me to grasp at all. The other day I was reading the word and I happened to see a scripture Ive never paid any attention too before basically because Ive never understood it anyway. It was Paul he must have been in prison at the time and he was telling his friend that people were preaching Christ only they were doing it out of spite for him.

What in the world Ive always thought and just gone on by that sentence not thinking about what he is saying..........
He goes on to say what does it matter as long as Christ is preached?

That Paul. Hes hard to understand at times. I wonder what he would say today about these people that go to churches?

How much you want to be things are not that different and that it was beginning to happen in his times. Ill bet it was.

I'm beginning to see that these people can be very dangerous and that it was really stupid of me, naive, and unwise to say the least, to be so open and trusting of these people and think that I would NOT get hurt.

Its very hard for me not to trust people I thought were supposed to love or try too anyway.
Its time to grow up and its almost too late for me but not for you I'm sure. Be wise and learn from what the original preacher has always told us. If they called Him Beelzebub what do you think they will call us?

I'm trying to learn to live and be even happy again. Happy in knowing that really no one could be more lucky than me...........why? Because I know my savior and they cant take that away from me and He knows me which is much better than anything they could ever do to me. I have suffered but not much really not in the scheme of things. Many people in this world have suffered a lot more than I ever can imagine for Jesus.

I am trying to be joyful for one simple reason.

Ive been depressed about the way Ive been treated for a very long time letting it dig a hole for me and I jumped into it gladly hiding from the world and everyone in it. This depression Ive begun to see is my centering my attentions on the things that are painful. Looking at what I dont have instead of what I DO have. It has begun to make me very sick indeed.

I hope that I can learn from this and see that the truth is the joy of God is where my strength can be not my sorrow. Its good to be honest about our experience and to grieve it too. God doesnt sit there with His finger pointed at us telling us now buck up kid and get over it.

He hurts and cries with us, its very painful for Him to see His children abused and injured and then on top of that to disbelieve in Him because of it, when its His enemies in the first place that are hurting us.

Imagine if that were your child and bullies were beating them when they went to school and they your own children hated you for sending them there. Our God is not a parent like that. He wants us to come to Him and He surely doesnt want us to be hurt by anyone especially on His account. But it will happen no matter what God does or what we do if we love Jesus. People that do not know Him and love Him and their father is the devil will always hurt us that is their way.

We must learn to love each other and be here for each other and comfort each other and then become strong again and learn to have some kind of joy.
God told me yesterday that I would be able to feel Him even when I dont per say feel His presence any more spiritually like I used to in church......... in the bath water when I take a bath. He is warm and comforting and He is still in His nature that He made for us to enjoy.

He is beautiful in the sunset...........He is sweet and soft and gentle in His breezes when I take a walk..........He is loving and gentle with me in the silences. He will never ever leave us. We must learn how to experience Him in a lot of different ways and share these good things with each other.

I wish I could feel Jesus and sit and talk to Him the way it must have been for the disciples but now for us it is by faith only we cannot see Him. We cannot feel Him............but of this I am positive he is definitely alive and He is where He says He is sitting at the right hand of the Father in heaven.

What else do we have anyway?

I dont know about any of you but I am a sinner. Hopelessly. I cannot live up to the sermon on the mount if you can congratulations but I cannot. So I need grace and abundantly.
I am not successful down here and even if I was those people dont seem to be able to hold on to that stuff very well. Even if they did they dont seem to be taking it down there in the hole where we all end up at?

I need Jesus in my life and I'm so glad Ive got Him.

Now be ready for my next post Ill probably be ready to annihilate myself again.

Just my thoughts for today and .......................shes here again...........my daughter............so please pray for me ok?