PDA

View Full Version : Barna's New Book: Pagan Christianity


freedom seeker
02-18-2008, 02:24 PM
Hi Friends...George Barna's new book, "Pagan Christianity?" is out. It will be an explosive device that blows the cover off the church. This is something I have been waiting for a long, long time! :D:D:):):)

Link to his site at the bottom.

Following are a few things of his site promoting his book.

Have you ever wondered why we Christians do what we do for church every Sunday morning? Why do we "dress up" for church? Why does the pastor preach a sermon each week? Why do we have pews, steeples, choirs, and seminaries? This volume reveals the startling truth: most of what Christians do in present-day churches is not rooted in the New Testament, but in pagan culture and rituals developed long after the death of the apostles. Coauthors Frank Viola and George Barna support their thesis with compelling historical evidence in the first-ever book to document the full story of modern Christian church practices.

Are we really doing church "by the Book?"

Why does the pastor preach a sermon at every service? Why do our church services seem so similar week after week? Why does the congregation sit passively in pews?

Not sure? Pagan Christianity makes an unsettling proposal: Most of what present-day Christians do in church each Sunday is rooted not in the New Testament, but in pagan culture and rituals developed long after the death of the apostles. Authors Frank Viola and George Barna support their thesis with compelling historical evidence and extensive footnotes that document the origins of our modern Christian church practices.

In the process, the authors uncover the problems that emerge when the church functions like a business organization rather than the living organism it was created to be. As you reconsider Christ's revolutionary plan for His church - to be the head of a fully functioning body in which all believers play an active role - you’ll be challenged to decide whether you can ever do church the same way again.


___________________________________

"Pagan Christianity?"

Americans Embrace Various Alternatives to a Conventional Church Experience as Being Fully Biblical
George Barna's new book "Pagan Christianity?" has just been released, in which he and co-author, Frank Viola, describe the origins of hallowed church practices – many of which have no basis in either scripture or the early Christian church. Some of what you read might make you uncomfortable, but it will almost certainly make you think

Issues with the Origins of Church Practices

The research parallels the findings of a controversial new book co-authored by researcher George Barna, entitled Pagan Christianity? Exploring the Roots of Our Christian Practices . In that book, Barna and co-author Frank Viola explain the origins of many common routines widely used in conventional churches, ranging from preaching to communion. The early Christians met almost exclusively in homes and had few of the trappings that characterize 21st-century churches and services. Many of the church habits in place today were not apostolic or biblical practices but are vestiges of pagan practices adopted by Christians in the third century or later.

Pagan Christianity? contends that most of today’s church practices have no biblical foundation, and in some cases, hinder people from having a genuine experience with God. With extensive footnotes and documentation, the book shows that the following church practices had little to do with scriptural mandate or apostolic application:


Church buildings were initially constructed under the Roman emperor Constantine, around 327. The early Christian church met in homes.

The pulpit was a piece of stagecraft borrowed from Greek culture in which professional speakers delivered monologues in public debates. There is no evidence that Jesus, the apostles, or other leaders in the early Church used a pulpit; it seems to have been introduced into Christian circles in the mid-third century.

The order of worship originated in the Roman Catholic Mass under the leadership of Pope Gregory in the sixth century.

Preaching a sermon to an audience was ushered into the church world late in the second century. Sermons were an extension of the activity of the Greek sophists, who had mastered the art of rhetorical oratory.

There were no pastors, as an official or director of a group of believers, until sometime in the second century. That was eventually furthered by the practice of ordination, which was based upon the prevailing Roman custom of appointing men to public office.

The biblical approach to "communion" or the "Lord’s Supper," was truncated late in the second century from a full, festive communal meal without clergy officiating to the presently common habit of having a sip of wine and morsel of bread (or juice and a wafer) under the guidance of a recognized clergyman.

Freedom Seeker

www.barna.org

mary
02-18-2008, 03:13 PM
Exactly!

I'm looking forward, too, to Barna's book, Freedom Seeker, and I thank you for giving us the "heads-up" on this. As someone who's recently been (outside of the Lord) the instigator for the founding of yet another (hopefully most Biblical) local congregation, I eagerly anticipate reading what Frank Viola and George Barna have to say.

They're right: there are no Biblical justifications or injunctions for choirs, music programs, Sunday school for children, stained glass windows, vestments, processions, certain "holydays," steeples, buildings that bear more resemblance to "temples to Diana" than anything else, and so many other things that have been brought into "the church."

I will not address the subject of "the mass" or Roman Catholicism, for I've said enough on both in the past and I've had those posts necessarily redirected or deleted... I've been reprimanded and I consider that it was appropriate to reprimand me on those occasions. :o :)

I do think, though, that there are Biblical justifications/injunctions for sermons (the Sermon on the Mount, Paul on Mars Hill, Paul on other occasions), elders, local congregations whether they meet in homes or rented public buildings or churches. We are told to sing psalms. "Uninspired hymns" - well, I guess we could agree to disagree, or agree to agree on those.

We've all experienced "pastors" who were anything but the Biblical model for same. We've experienced martinets, flaming narcissists, satyrs, blowhards, sadists, gossips, "girlie-men," goats, egotists without end, etc., etc. Doesn't mean the office itself should be done away with, as there is Biblical support for it; it does indicate that seminaries are churning out tons of men with no "vocation," to steal a term from my past Catholicism. What is a "vocation?" An inner calling, a burning desire to minister to God's people. [A digression: Not saying the RCC did/does it right: what did they wind up with when they sought men who had "vocations," but had no desire to marry and in fact, when they prohibited their clergy from being married? (That's not Biblical, by the way: 1 Timothy 4:3.) They wound up attracting a certain plurality, if not a majority, of homosexually-oriented men, and the tidal waves of scandal that ensued. Big surprise.]

I do believe in, and the church we've recently gotten underway practices, the regulative principle of worship. Take the NT -- what does it say? -- and throw out what's not there. We must keep in mind that God is holy and has directed how He wants us to worship Him, in both testaments. We are not under the Law, however, and Jesus did tell us not to let others judge us with regard to the Sabbath, and that it was made for man, not man for the Sabbath. Jesus "worked" on the Sabbath: He did works of mercy and of healing.

"Communion" as we have it today is a throwback and unwarranted deference to the imported Aristotelian philosophy that we were discussing on another thread. "Substance can change its essence..." No, it can't! But that's another discussion and I promised I wouldn't get into it, ever again.

Thanks again, Freedom Seeker, for this thread.

mary

Willow
02-18-2008, 03:22 PM
I got a book by this name a few years ago. I wonder if this is a different one?

freedom seeker
02-18-2008, 03:56 PM
Exactly!

We've all experienced "pastors" who were anything but the Biblical model for same. We've experienced martinets, flaming narcissists, satyrs, blowhards, sadists, gossips, "girlie-men," goats, egotists without end, etc., etc.

Now, Mary, that is what I call descriptive, and sadly right on target.

No, Willow, this is a new book just released. It's going to cause a real storm because this guy has a very revered name in Christendom, and is pulling no punches. I'm looking forward to the "storm", and seeing more and more set free. :D:D:):)

Freedom Seeker

Willow
02-18-2008, 08:42 PM
Now, Mary, that is what I call descriptive, and sadly right on target.

No, Willow, this is a new book just released. It's going to cause a real storm because this guy has a very revered name in Christendom, and is pulling no punches. I'm looking forward to the "storm", and seeing more and more set free. :D:D:):)

Freedom Seeker

I see now. I had read the one on the same topic by Frank Viola. It sounds like the same book exactly... even the description...

http://www.amazon.com/Pagan-Christianity-Origins-Modern-Practices/dp/0966665732

Oh wait... I see the co-author IS Frank Viola. It is the same book!

mary
02-19-2008, 07:37 AM
Okay, I think I've ferreted out the reason for the confusion. Viola's original book has been revised and updated recently and the new book is also called "Pagan Christianity," but its subtitle is "Exploring the Roots of Our Christian Practices." The first book was subtitled, "The Origins of Our Christian Practices." So, Freedom Seeker and Amy, you're both right. I'll bet a lot of people are confused by this...

I wonder if one should get both and compare them, or if the second one just corrects some things in the first and would make buying the first unnecessary. The reader reviews are copious and would take hours to go through in detail. However, of course, you can't put your entire stock in "reader reviews" when deciding whether to buy a book...

'Tis a puzzlement.

mary

Willow
02-19-2008, 08:25 AM
Okay, I think I've ferreted out the reason for the confusion. Viola's original book has been revised and updated recently and the new book is also called "Pagan Christianity," but its subtitle is "Exploring the Roots of Our Christian Practices." The first book was subtitled, "The Origins of Our Christian Practices." So, Freedom Seeker and Amy, you're both right. I'll bet a lot of people are confused by this...

I wonder if one should get both and compare them, or if the second one just corrects some things in the first and would make buying the first unnecessary. The reader reviews are copious and would take hours to go through in detail. However, of course, you can't put your entire stock in "reader reviews" when deciding whether to buy a book...

'Tis a puzzlement.

mary

I think I won't buy the new one as it probably has a lot of the same info. If I was going to buy one for the first time though... I'd just get Barna's book. I bet it has some critical editing in it.

Reg
02-26-2008, 01:09 PM
FYI

Here's Frank's website. http://www.ptmin.org/pagan.htm

Since he's located in St. Petersburg, FL I planned to find him and stop by on my way back but didn't have the time.

broken_hearted_sheep
02-26-2008, 08:04 PM
Crosswalk.com has some contributors that blasted Barna for his conclusions. They basically said he was dancing on the church's grave. :confused:

I guess people who are a part of the abusive system or those that have never encountered it think people like us are crazy? :mad:

While I may not agree with every conclusion, one thing is certain...there is a problem and people want a change.

mary
02-27-2008, 07:34 AM
Crosswalk.com has some contributors that blasted Barna for his conclusions. They basically said he was dancing on the church's grave. :confused:

I guess people who are a part of the abusive system or those that have never encountered it think people like us are crazy? :mad:

While I may not agree with every conclusion, one thing is certain...there is a problem and people want a change.

Interesting, BHS, re: Crosswalk's contributors...

Certainly, people who are part of or have never encountered the modern-day church's penchant for abuse of the sheep think we're crazy. Anecdotally, people who know my particular abuser can't believe that he would have done what he did to me. But he most definitely did. :mad: :( And the women (including his own wife and daughter) who didn't know the real story, but who took their marching orders from him and utterly trashed my reputation, think I'm crazy. The elders, too, believed him, not me: "Oh, 'mary' has been hospitalized for depression and anxiety. She's not to be believed. She's crazy, you see." So much for confidentiality.

Our new church is part of a recent split from the old one, and so I'm still encountering people who know my abuser. (And I'm still awfully ashamed.) "You can take the Catholic schoolgirl out of the Catholic Church, but you can't take the Catholic Church out of the (former) Catholic schoolgirl." Still no one understands how I feel... :( :( :( :( I do hope and pray that this new church will represent and encourage a healing process for all who come there (because others who attend our services have been hurt in other churches, in various and sundry ways). We're hearing the Gospel being preached and Christ being exalted; we're praying according to Jesus's instructions as to how to pray and we're singing psalms. Please, Lord, that there will be no abuse here!

People need a change from the current status quo of "Christianity" not just in this country, but all over the world today. It's not just broken; it's been totally decimated by those who are not His. This needs to change immediately.

I thought that I would be fleeing into churches that would be an earthly exemplar of Jesus's loving arms when I left the RCC and joined so-called "Gospel-preaching" congregations. How stupid and how naive I was!

mary

needhim
02-28-2008, 04:08 PM
Hello, I am new to the forum...I didn't know what name to use and I always know that I "need Him" so it stuck.;)

I hear and can relate to so many stories that you are sharing...I have been married 9 years to a wonderful man; we have one son age 6 and my stepdaughter is living with us age 17. We are both very active ministers in music, prayer and teaching of God's word and no "home church" to call our own that we are able to attend. Both have "outreach" ministries in our workplaces and community.We really would love to "become part" of "the church" but when we follow God as we do, we can not follow "man" and that has ticked some "men" off...(not gender men necessarily; leaders, etc.) We have had a leader pound his fist on the desk and said to my newly married husband and I "you will obey me!!!" :eek: No kidding!!! He is no longer leader there but has gone onto other ministry works. (He was one of the founders of the church). This is the church that we would become part of again if it were closer to us, or we to it.

I just got George Barna's book "Revolution" about those (like many or all of us) have gone "beyond the walls of the sanctuary" and have "chosen to BE the church instead". (2005) I am looking forward to seeing his information regarding the "paganisation of the church" in Pagan Christianity...There is a very interesting website regarding "fossilized customs" and the pagan origins of many "christian" practices today. It is truly life-altering to view the pagan roots of christianity...:eek:

I figure if it (worshipping with a few and observing the Sabbath plus loving the Lord thy God with all your heart, mind and strength and your neighbor as yourself) is good enough for Jesus, it should be "good enough" for us.;) I think that worship has gotten much too complication; politicized and "organized"...I really believe that "the church" has gotten into the "entertainment mode" and has become more of a spectator rather than a participant and I don't believe that is the way that God intends it to be...

Nice to meet you...:)
May the Lord bless and keep you and yours safe, unto Himself and fill you with His spirit and wisdom.

hoipoloi
03-07-2008, 01:59 AM
May I go wildly off-topic here?

Mary in P10 says, "didn't know the real story, but took their marching orders from him and utterly trashed my reputation, think I'm crazy ... She's not to be believed. She's crazy, you see. So much for confidentiality."

It has been good for me to be reminded of what has happened to me, and that I am not alone in the experience I have had to endure.

It may be good for all of us to be reminded so starkly why we are here and what gives us solidarity. Thank you mary.

Sorry to go off-topic.

mary
03-07-2008, 09:45 AM
May I go wildly off-topic here?

Mary in P10 says, "didn't know the real story, but took their marching orders from him and utterly trashed my reputation, think I'm crazy ... She's not to be believed. She's crazy, you see. So much for confidentiality."

It has been good for me to be reminded of what has happened to me, and that I am not alone in the experience I have had to endure.

It may be good for all of us to be reminded so starkly why we are here and what gives us solidarity. Thank you mary.

Sorry to go off-topic.

Oh, Hoipoloi, you're welcome... :) And I for one don't think you went off-topic at all. Quite the contrary: while my account in P10 was anecdotal, I thought it had a "common thread" (philosophically speaking) and so that's why I posted it. We've all been abused; we've all been de-valued, suffered lack of common Christian courtesy, been treated worse in churches than how "the world" would treat us (I keep coming back to one of my more painful observations, that I've been treated better in the myriad law firms in which I've worked than in non-Catholic churches I've been in since leaving the RCC), etc., etc.

My personal hypothesis is that "the world" treats people better because its civil veneer and all of the accoutrements of it is all it that it has to offer. It is what it is, for better or for worse, and "the world" wants a good reputation. On the other hand, "Christians" assume that they "fly by grace;" "God knows their hearts;" it's all "covered over by the Blood" and therefore, they can consume their own. With Dijon on the side, don't you know... :( :eek:

Sad, sad state of affairs. I pray that the Lord will intervene in all this, and soon.

mary