looking for some articles or info

[Lvanett]

Hi there,

It's been a while since I've been here. I hope you are all still fighting the good fight of faith and not letting anyone - especially abusive Christians - get you down! As for me, I haven't been to a church of any kind in about 2 1/2 years. I really want to go, but am limited in my choices thanx to a certain Pastor from one of my former churches. In fact, this same church is STILL pursuing me in one form or another! I ran into the Pastor's assistant tonight and in typical blind-loyalty-to-the-Pastor fashion, they tried to get information from me about where I'm going, etc. Some things or people never change. (sigh)

Anyway....I'm looking for some articles or information on the topics below:


Pastoral/Church "chasing" or stalking ex-members - that is, churches who pursue ex-members and are constantly trying to find out where they're going, what they're doing etc., resorting to measures such as asking other Pastors, spreading lies about the ex-member, etc.

The concept of "Armor-Bearers", and whether or not this is truly biblical or applies to church staff (ex. elders).

Churches or Pastors that misinterpret Galatians 6:1-10, and an explanation as to what the scripture really means.

Thanx for any help anyone can provide! I'd really like to :)

[broken_hearted_sheep]

My husband was called to be an armor bearer to our pastor. He had to read two books by a man named Terry Nance. During his tenure as the armor bearer for our abusive pastor, he also had to write a paper about his office. While researching armor bearers, he discovered in the Bible that an armor bearer was meant to carry the armor, while a cup bearer was more of a personal attendant/valet to the king. When he included these distinctions per the Bible, he was sharply rebuked and removed from his position quickly.:confused:

Personally, I feel people praying for leaders is necessary. Leaders should have people they can trust to help assist them with things from time to time. Unfortunately, what I have witnessed is my pastors using armor bearers to create a private group of yes-men/women, who will agree with everything they say, even if it's wrong.

For example I watched a sweet woman, who was the lead usher fall head first into idolatory because they took her away from being an usher. She exchanged worshiping God for worshiping our female pastor. When she was sat down from armor bearer she fell apart. Eventually, another former armor bearer pulled her out of our church. Thank the Lord she got out before it was too late.

I think people who focus on armor bearers and want to use the guidelines Nance uses in his books, are borderline abusers. I don't remember reading about other people's armor bearers in the Bible, but Saul had one. If that's not a clear cut example of spiritual abuse, (between David and Saul) then I don't know what it.

If I find out some more information, I'll post it. Best wishes on your search for the truth.

BH Sheep:)

[Lvanett]

Hello BH Sheep!

I agree with you about armor-bearers. Its basis is in the OT...which means it's not part of the New Covenant.

The part you wrote about "pastors using armor bearers to create a private group of yes-men/women, who will agree with everything they say" I can relate with big time, as the last church I served at had them but called them "elders." They sent an email to me shortly before I left saying how they were the "Pastor's armor bearers". They served not only as yes-men, but also protected the Pastor. They truly believed this was the right thing to do! This was just one small portion of a major problem the Lord revealed to me regarding the Pastor and his dictator-like way or manipulating "his" (and not "HIS") church, flock, staff, and in a way, the Holy Spirit.

[FreeinJesus]

Its basis is in the OT...which means it's not part of the New Covenant.

Exactly Lvanett!

BTW, WELCOME:)!!!
There's new people & I know I haven't greeted everyone...sorry...:o

As I understand what Jesus taught we are all on EQUAL footing, priesthood of believers. Man, that armour bearer stuff....good grief!!! Who do these men think they are???!!:eek::rolleyes:

It seems to me that Jesus was quite against the worldy system of lording over others, which I think is one reason why the "higher ups" despised him...He was putting a monkey wrench in their system by his teachings.

This is how I understand it, the worldly system is that there are the /top dog/s, then the inner circle, on it goes til you are at the "bottom rung". It's a pyramid scheme & I don't believe God is happy w/ the way these "churches" are being run by religious dictators & mini-popes.

These abusive religous systems are upside down, inverted....not at all the way Jesus taught.
That's what I believe. It's depresses me....I think if I ever joined a church again, it would be a denominational church, at least there are checks & balances. ( I guess it would depend too on which denomination..right now we do not go to church often, let alone plan to join anything.:rolleyes::()

[Lvanett]

Hi there Free! Is it ok if I just call you "Free"? :)

Thanx for your greeting and welcome!

There are MANY things in today's church that I know Jesus is against. I could write a novel, LOL! Armor bearers are one. Stalking, in its many forms, is another, and is one of the other things I'm looking for info on.

For me, the version of stalking I'm experiencing means that for every time a member of my former SA church, or anyone who knows me from (or thru) that church sees me or hears from me, they tell the Pastor. He and his staff then go and transform it into a negative, bad experience that will have damaging effects on me and any wishes to serve in a church within a good 100 mile radius of my home. Of course the reason they do these things is because "Pastor" told them to do so, and of course they all want to obey "Pastor"....(sigh)....and of course they probably believe "Pastor" knows best. Because of this, I do NOT engage in conversation or anything else with these people. Just this Sunday afternoon (2/17/08), after seeing the Pastor's assistant in the store, I immediately darted out of the store. Why? Because I knew that trying to talk to her would only lead to arguing and misinterpreted statements on hers, the Pastor's, and the church's part. The last time I attempted to talk to someone from that church, my statements and actions were twisted by "Pastor" and I was then accused of lying to the church.

How I wish the Lord would show that church that the things "Pastor" is telling them to do (to or for me) is not just a form of stalking, but also gossipping, slandering, and unhealthy behavior. And trying to explain how bad this is, even to Christians, can be SO frustrating. I believe it takes someone who is either mature enough in Him, or someone who's been thru a situation like this, to truly understand and realize that such behavior should not be tolerated or accepted in today's church!

[FreeinJesus]

Hi there Free! Is it ok if I just call you "Free"? :)

..... Of course the reason they do these things is because "Pastor" told them to do so, and of course they all want to obey "Pastor"....(sigh)....and of course they probably believe "Pastor" knows best. .......

How I wish the Lord would show that church that the things "Pastor" is telling them to do (to or for me) is not just a form of stalking, but also gossipping, slandering, and unhealthy behavior. And trying to explain how bad this is, even to Christians, can be SO frustrating. I believe it takes someone who is either mature enough in Him, or someone who's been thru a situation like this, to truly understand and realize that such behavior should not be tolerated or accepted in today's church!

HI!! Yes, you can call me Free!:)

I think trying to persuade those people would be a difficult thing & this is why. As w/ my xabusive "church" the people are basically brainwashed by the unaccountable pastor. Pastor tells them & they jump, pastor tells them "NO talking about this ever...if you want the facts, come to ME!" information control, so the truth never gets out & their eyes have been blinded by the blind leader.
Just my opinion.

One lady still in xabusive chruch stopped by after we had been excommunicated.......hadn't heard from her in 5 months, I was NOT overly friendly, yet she smiled, tried to hug me....I'm thinking, "OK, I've been disciplined, excommunicated & pastor basically believes we are dogs who have returned to our vomit...but you come here, no phonecall, no nothing in 5 months & I'm supposed to act all "chummy-buddy" with you??:confused::(:mad:...I don't think so!":mad:

She tried to "rebuke" me...w/ the Hebrews "forsake not the assembling of yourselves..." I told her that that verse doesn't say how many, when, & wasn't it talking to that specific group of Hebrews? That passage, IMHO doesn't really "PROVE" much to me. She asked "where are you going to church now?" I brushed over the question (didn't want her to know anything that way) but I let her know that I would NEVER< EVER go to an independent church where the pastor was accountable to nobody, like my Xabusive church. I told her I'd never go to; let alone join a supposed "church" where there is NO accountability or no checks & balances for a ONE man show. She didn't like hearing that...:cool:...oh well. I guess I'm just a rebel, but I've wasted too many years jumping through religious hoops & "prove your loyalty" hoops that I realize GOD NEVER REQUIRED OF ME. :( MEN put those burdens on me..:mad:...I'm pissed off & I hope I see retribution in my lifetime. I'd reallly like to see them repent & see the wrongness of their doings..but I wont hold my breath for that one.:rolleyes:

I pray you can not be intimidated by those people, Lynda. My Lord, don't they know Jesus' saying 'bless those who curse you, do good to those who use you?' "love thine enemies?'....I see that the way our xpastors treated us is not godly fruit, is it? I don't think so......we were deceived, following blind guides & that realization sucks!:(
God bless & take care!! FIJ

[Lvanett]

Oh I know persuading anyone is hard. All I can do is pray the Lord reveals it to them in His own glorious, perfect way. It's such a blessing to know that the Lord will never lie to you, deceive you, or tell on you and that his righteousness and judgment are perfect.

The situation you experienced with lady you mention sounds a lot like the experience I had Sunday. Only in my case, after the lady said "Hi Lynda" I only said hi back and left the store. Knowing her as I do, I knew discussing anything with her would be the worst thing to do. Running into her, and talking to her is as pointless and frustrating as talking directly to "Pastor"....so I knew the less I said, and the quicker I got away from her, the better!

People in SA churches, when stalking excommunicated members, love to put up the "phony front" as I call it. They want everyone to think that their intentions are good, they still love you, they miss you, they care, etc. - anything that sounds good and makes them appear innocent. Then when you reject their actions, statements, or anything else, they can tell everyone that they were right about you and that you're ____________ (fill in the blank). I am so many bad things according to my former SA church that I can't keep track. But I know who I REALLY am in Jesus!!

[FreeinJesus]

..... All I can do is pray the Lord reveals it to them in His own glorious, perfect way. It's such a blessing to know that the Lord will never lie to you, deceive you, or tell on you and that his righteousness and judgment are perfect.

.... Knowing her as I do, I knew discussing anything with her would be the worst thing to do. Running into her, and talking to her is as pointless and frustrating as talking directly to "Pastor"....so I knew the less I said, and the quicker I got away from her, the better!

People in SA churches, when stalking excommunicated members, love to put up the "phony front" as I call it. They want everyone to think that their intentions are good, they still love you, they miss you, they care, etc. - anything that sounds good and makes them appear innocent. Then when you reject their actions, statements, or anything else, they can tell everyone that they were right about you and that you're ____________ (fill in the blank). I am so many bad things according to my former SA church that I can't keep track. But I know who I REALLY am in Jesus!!

SO TRUE Lynda!! Those people can pretend! It sure does hurt when you know you are being talked about as some horrible heretic or something, when you have just changed & don't see things the way they do. You are right, we know who we are in Jesus! :) No matter what people say or do, that is something that they can NOT take away from us! :)

When the one lady from Xabusive just stopped by, unannounced... I was shocked. Obviously she has no clue how incredibly painful this has been for my husband & I. We moved to this state for that "bible-cult"..not only were we deceived, manipulated & coerced, but we have the daunting task of moving back to our home state. Of course there is selling our house, packing, finding another place to live & my husband & I seeking new employment. Jesus...and she acted as if NOTHING happened, like I was just supposed to PRETEND that all was well. :mad: :(. Makes me sick that these people are so out of touch w/ human emotions that they can basically annihalate a persons spirit & then innocently look at you like, "well, what are you so upset about?" :confused::( It's quite unf^ckin' believable. :mad::rolleyes:

I see my mistakes, I've done my research, I've begged God & prayed & God has showed me so much that was completely wrong w/ xabusive bible-cult. In my leaving, He has given me an answer of peace, but there's a lot of damage that has been done, I'm sure you can relate to that Lynda!! They sure do play head games.:mad:

You are right, God sees it & God will deal w/ it in his time.....

[hornblower]

Interesting. Im sorry for your stalking..........are you sure thats whats happening?
I cant relate to this as I have not seen or heard from anyone in that bugaboo place at all for way over ten years probably. Ive moved but even when I hadnt moved I hadnt seen ANYONE at all.
They did try to make me do what they wanted me to do to make up and they obviouslty saw me as a huge sinner becasuse tio their way of thinking anyone that would leave their little group was OUT.........Out big time!

I dont know if my former church believed that I was not following Christ any longer or not..........I think they just felt that they were on the right path and so if I didnt go along with them I was ...............somewhere else?????????????

Lol.

I look at it as if they were the ones in sin.....not me. In fact that has never changed for me Im sure they were and still are because of what they believe in.

I did scripture they did not.

I dont know your story but what kind of a sin would these people think that you have committed?
Leaving one church and going to another one is not a sin..........according to Paul and hes someone I pretty much trust in besides Jesus Himself..................there IS only ONE church the bride of Christ and there isnt any other church. Remeber the scriptures on one being of Paul and another being of Apollos and another being of this person or that person..........Paul had a lot to say about that thinking.

We all only have one teacher His name is Jesus. Jesus said dont call anyone teacher except Jesus and personally I dont. I listen I test it against what I know already I study and I pray and then I let God teach me what I need to know not man. Thats why I think its very important to study and also to continue in felowship of some kind or another but if someone has hurt you and abused you that is sin that they are doing to you not you.

Because you have been misused or hurt does not mean you need to be corrected it means they need to be corrected!

Usually they wont stand for it...........you tru to confront it doesnt work you are usually not heard and so you leave............Jesus said to leave in fact run more like.

The Lord had me read 1st and 2nd Timothy yesterday and then tonight Im starting Phillipians and itsd amazing in there how much Paul was getting hurt and how often by his own fellow christians.

Yesterday in Timothy Paul said all people who desire to go on with God and live Godly lives will be persecuted.

He also said the law was for sinners............I thought that was interesting.

Im always thinking Im such a sinner. Id be a liar if I thought I wasnt the word says that too but isnt it interesting that often we think we are so bad because we are sensitive to sinning............thats our soft heart I think.......God wants us tender like that............because it makes us be humble to always be in that state of mind.
Im always going to need my savior.
People that have a lot of pride always think they are so RIGHT and everyone else is wrong.

I pray that you will see my friend that you are not in sin here..........if that is the case and if not I pray that you can see that only Jesus can takle care of any sinner and the love of other Christians. Real love sets us free...........it never haunts us and stalks us...........Jesus is first and foremost and I say this from my 33 years of experience............a gentleman...........a GENTLE MAN...........He never goes where He is not wanted. You have to ask Him to come and visit.............He doesnt haunt you or bug you ever!

[hornblower]

My husband was called to be an armor bearer to our pastor. He had to read two books by a man named Terry Nance. During his tenure as the armor bearer for our abusive pastor, he also had to write a paper about his office. While researching armor bearers, he discovered in the Bible that an armor bearer was meant to carry the armor, while a cup bearer was more of a personal attendant/valet to the king. When he included these distinctions per the Bible, he was sharply rebuked and removed from his position quickly.:confused:

Personally, I feel people praying for leaders is necessary. Leaders should have people they can trust to help assist them with things from time to time. Unfortunately, what I have witnessed is my pastors using armor bearers to create a private group of yes-men/women, who will agree with everything they say, even if it's wrong.

For example I watched a sweet woman, who was the lead usher fall head first into idolatory because they took her away from being an usher. She exchanged worshiping God for worshiping our female pastor. When she was sat down from armor bearer she fell apart. Eventually, another former armor bearer pulled her out of our church. Thank the Lord she got out before it was too late.

I think people who focus on armor bearers and want to use the guidelines Nance uses in his books, are borderline abusers. I don't remember reading about other people's armor bearers in the Bible, but Saul had one. If that's not a clear cut example of spiritual abuse, (between David and Saul) then I don't know what it.

If I find out some more information, I'll post it. Best wishes on your search for the truth.

BH Sheep:)



Oh My gosh this is so unbelievable! What will these churches think of next????????????? Makes me puke!

[hornblower]

What ever happened to the first shall be last and the last shall be first? Im sure they would screw that one up too and make it into something rediculous.

JKnow what else I was reading tonight in Phillipians..........Paul was talking asbout how many were preaching the gospel to do it for gain out of spite for him and envy...........then poor Paul went on to say what difference does it make if Jesus is at least preached?

I couldnt understand it.

Why would someone preach and they are doing it for personal gain????????

Money ok I see that but what if theres not much money made? Then why? Nevertheless nothings changed has it? Nothing at all!

Sorry I feel like Im butting in on your conversations here but it just gets me.......all of this crap that goes on.

You know I dont really count even my friends as that close because really I dont trust what they believe in.

I know that sounds so awful and I repent about it all of the time. I dont want to fgeel like I know something they dont because after all who am I anyway but really its so darn dangerous now days I think it is. Maybe it always has been.

Even when I was a little girl the enemy was always trying to steal Jesus away from me, I swear its true, it is!

One friend of mine she doesnt seem to care what anybody does at all in churches..........she says Im way too hard on other christians. She says that there is no such thing as sin anyway.........not really.........WHAT?

I think she is getting senile.

Then another friend says I close myself off from everyone...........well duh Ive been like taking care of my parents and daughter for years you know? Where was she? Shes the one that is always calling every single person that does anything at all to her ..........shes always saying they have a spirit of this or that?

I dont like that demonic crap stuff...........I say why dont you say what it is. If they are nuts say so if they are lying say so why does it have to be a spirit? Who told you that?

Then all of these others the big thing seems to be they have mentors now.

They are in their forties and they need a mentor?

Then there is my non spirit filled friend.........she is on my case to get me over my daughters illness............shes like face it and get on with your life and I can dig that, but she loves to flat out TELL me what to do.
Last wekk I just was so tiored I just said to myself whats the use with these people I give up..........

All I wanted is a friend.

So I have one..........His name is Jesus.........He leaves me alone and lets me be me and He always loves me and helps me........

Im going crazy I guess but Id rather be crazy then live with these idiots.

[Lvanett]

Interesting. Im sorry for your stalking..........are you sure thats whats happening?

Hornblower, yes I really do. Either they are stalking me, or chasing me....similar to the way Saul chased David in the OT. Here's why: when "Pastor" told his church - conveniently, in an email to "members only" - of my leaving, he instructed them to inform him if they saw or heard from me. They were told they MUST do that, like it was an order. IMO when someone does that, it's the same as instructing your flock to stalk someone. I realize the degree of the stalking has been mild for the most part, but it still bothers me because they never stop trying to get information about where I am, what church I go to, and anything else they can....and for what....just to slander me! Besides, I'd been stalked as a teenager by another girl from school, and the level and nature of the stalking was similar to the way this church has gone about it, so I have a little experience in the area.

They haven't actually followed me everywhere I go, but among some of the things they've done are trying to find out where I live...one member, who knew the leasing agent at my apartment complex, tried to get her to reveal my apartment number, location and other info. Fortunately the woman didn't give em the info. Another has been the Pastor's assistant continually sending emails, snail mail cards and invitations, and other things to me for the past 3 years all under the guise of concern, love, and "friendship". However, in light of the fact that she was one of the main gossipers while I was there (and probably still is), is the webmaster for the church's site, and is always informing "Pastor" of members who've broken his rules, I do not consider her a "friend" of any kind although I will love her in the Lord and pray for her.

The reason he thinks the way I left was in sin was because I didn't come to him directly and tell him I was planning on leaving....i.e. more control tactics.
I knew doing that wouldn't work because he would try to lie and deceive me, and would examine me even more closely thru his microscope, via reports from his elders and associate Pastor (who was also the "counselor"). I'd tried in the past to address certain issues I had with either one of the leaders or him directly (with their consent), and I was instead ignored and lied to. Furthermore, since he'd already accused me of "sinning" in the past because I broke at least one of his rules I felt more and more uncomfortable coming to him or anyone there for anything.

I know that my leaving was NOT "sin"....but this church and "Pastor" have become legalistic, just like the Pharisees and don't even see it....they hold adherence to rules, and respect for the "Pastor" above anything else. To them breaking one of their precious rules is a sin and IMO, I do not see how doing such a thing can be rightfully labeled as such.