Signs of a "sick" charismatic church

[fender]

While there are some good points to what many people see as the "flakier"side of Christianity, there are a whole pile of pitfalls that need to be watched for that can lead to spiritual abuse, false teaching, and the "elitism" of a charismatic congregation.

I would like to open up some discussion of different opinions on the matter, specifically from the charismatic perspective. Let's not turn this into a "liturgical" or "evangelical" vs. "charismatic" argument, but just your views on how good charismatic churches can go wrong.

Note: the manifesting I refer to below includes (but is not limited to) speaking in tongues, shaking, dancing uncontollably, disruptive verbal outbursts (both words and various noises), and uncontrollable physical gyrations.

Signs of a sick charismatic church (IMHO):

1. Those who "manifest" are more popular with leadership. Those who don't manifest are tagged as "not breaking down the walls" or "not entering in" and are basically ignored. As soon as they decide to start manifesting (including tongues) they are accepted as being on a higher spiritual plane.

2. Prophetic words are not screened by a mature christian with a high level of discernment and searched out with the Lord before they are spoken. Prophetic words for an individual are allowed to be spoken from the pulpit.

3. The focus is on the next collective "wave" that comes down the pipes. People with real spiritual, physical and emotional needs are ignored if there is a collective manifestation in progress. All attention is payed to those who are manifesting.
The person waiting quietly, praying for someone to help is ignored.

4. The "prophets" in the group are in seen as infallible, although this will never be admitted to. If a prophetic word doesn't come to pass it is always someone else's fault (not enough faith, sin in the camp, etc.). Never, "I guess I was wrong".

5. Experience has displaced sound Biblical teaching and life application. "Soaking" becomes the preferred method for hearing from the Lord. If the vision/word given juring the soaking session can be backed up with scripture (even out of context) it is good to go with. Even if it is not backed up by scripture, the view is that it must be in there and I just can't find it. Words or visions presented by those who don't manifest are ignored.

6. Every "word" or "vision" that occurs juring a service must be from the Lord, because we covered the place with prayer before starting, which "binds" false, satanic, or things from the flesh. This is dead wrong. Satan and his crew is free to use whatever ground we offer him through false motives, lack of discernment, etc.

7. There is no real personal growth despite hours of wild manifestations and soaking sessions. In the Bible, when the Lord met with someone on a level that made them manifest SOMETHING MAJOR ALWAYS HAPPENED, either in the persons life, or the lives of those who His word was intended for.

8. It is the view of leadership that the gift of discernment is only given to those who manifest.

9. Music is the preferred, perhaps only, catalyst that can spur the Lord to speak to His people.

10. There is a disproportionate number of prayers and songs asking the Lord to "bless me", "bless us", "bless them", and very little in the way of "Bless You".

These are just a few warning signs that I know can lead to abuse or elitism. There are probably more.

Thoughts?

Mike

[Doug64]

Hi Mike:


I think you have probably covered most of the ones I've heard.

I'd be interested in hearing more about 'soaking' as that is a new one.

Maybe add to the list:

11. Our group is the only one with the truth.

Doug :D

[Ontheroad]

Wow, Mike - were you spying in on my former church a few months ago? J/K. :)
This sounds so veerrrry familiar. I've seen alot of the signs you mentioned in my former church and in others I know who attend similar, emotionally-hyped up, flaky charismatic or nondenominational churches. I might add a couple more:

12) Anyone who doesn't want to enter into any of these "new" moves or manifestations of God but instead choose to rely on Scripture for their growth are seen as inferior. Only the super duper movers and shakers will move into the latest fad, like soaking, laughing, barking, casting out territorial spirits, seeing gold dust fall, standing on their head while patting their tummies, etc. (OK, I made up that last one, but it is about as ridiculous as the rest).

13) Worship must beat up into an emotional frenzy. It cannot be quiet or unemotional or it's not "working". Only emotionally charged music will bring in the move of God.

I have noticed that the more solid and stable Christians don't rely on all the emotional hype and latest manifestation like Charismatic-types do. It seems like Charismatics must have a visible "sign" to know their prayers are working, which in my book, actually requires less faith.

GOOD POST, Mike! I look forward to additional discussion about this.

[ex-shep]

5. Experience has displaced sound Biblical teaching and life application. "Soaking" becomes the preferred method for hearing from the Lord.

I have been in my than my share of charismatic groups, but what is soaking. Had not heard that term before.

[Beautiful_Dreamer]

14. you are discouraged from doing something that is necessary for your health or well-being in favor of following their religious beliefs-for example, for a group that believes in 'faith healing', you are discouraged from taking medication or seeking treatment for a known disorder...and if you do have to take medicine or the 'healing' doesn't work, you are told it is due to your lack of faith, etc.

Or, you are encouraged to do something that is harmful to you or your health-for example, someone with a heart condition, high blood pressure, or a siezure disorder probably does not need to be dancing in the aisles or getting overly emotionally wrought in a service, but if this person sits down and/or behaves in the more conservative manner their doctor prescribed, they are looked down upon...

15. this goes along with the above somewhat, but the group or person is more concerned with whether or not you are following their beliefs than for your well-being...like a group that would tell a woman in an abusive relationship that she cannot divorce her husband or that if she does she cannot marry anyone else, or a group that would say a woman should not work outside the home even if she is the only one who *can* or it is necessary for the family...

16. Every problem that a person has is blamed on a 'demon' or 'spirit', and the person is told that their problem is the result of their own disobedience/lack of faith/lack of correct prayer, etc...but no real effort is made to help the person and no real compassion is shown...

Sorry this is so long...speaking from my experience here...

[Beautiful_Dreamer]

I have noticed that the more solid and stable Christians don't rely on all the emotional hype and latest manifestation like Charismatic-types do. It seems like Charismatics must have a visible "sign" to know their prayers are working, which in my book, actually requires less faith.

I agree totally!!! Didn't Jesus Himself say to Thomas that he might be beleiving because of what he has seen, but blessed are the people who believe without having seen (paraphrasing, I don;'t have my bible handy right now)???

I would think it would be more desirable to God to worship Him the way that is most meaningful to you than to force someone or force yourself into a method that feels less authentic. I have faked speaking in tongues (the glossalalia sort) for that reason...I felt I had to. That is just sad. If someone is really gifted with it then great but the Bible clearly says that not everyone is going to be and people shouldn't be made to feel bad or less faithful or whatever because the Lord chose to give them a different spiritual gift.

[Voyager]

Here's another one:

17. Members must constantly be prepared to testify as to how great the Lord (the pastor) is. It doesn't matter if your testimonial is accurate or based on fact, as long as it makes the Lord (the pastor) look good and gives him/her credit for salvaging their life (which was worthless until the pastor redeemed it). Extra points are given for tears, screams, emotional outbursts, and even "manifestations of the spirit" (falling down, laugh/crying, shaking, etc.) if allowed.

:cool:

[fender]

Soaking: You go up to the front for prayer. Someone prays for you. You fall backwards (usually) and the catcher catches you and lays you down on the floor. You lay supposedly comatose for a while while the Lord speaks to you or heals you, etc.

Maybe we should work on this list some more and make a sticky or an article out of it?

Thanks folks. There's some good additions that are helping me understand a little better where I started going wrong.

Mike

[mountain]

This is a good discussion...

I went through the charismatic phase a few years back and indeed you are hitting the main issues...

After going to a number of their churches, I determined that I should pursue a church not based on emotional highs or good works (perfectionism) but based on mature Christian principles and a solid belief in grace.

I have done better since.

I do enjoy worship that charismatics have but it has to be motivated by thanksgiving rather than just a desire for an extreme high to be meaningful long term.

mtn

[Florence]

One of the things I have noticed about my "full-on" charismatic friends is that they are constantly looking for the next "high." They travel to Florida, Canada, and anywhere else where there is a major "revival" several times a year to get their next "fix." For a couple, it got to the point that no local church could give them the "high" they needed so they started a house church where they could imitate the frenzied experiences they find in the revival venues.

Just an observation . . .

Florence

[Beautiful_Dreamer]

Why is it that we seem to hear so much more about abuse or harmful situations in these sorts of churches? Even the ones who do have some sort of accountability still have these problems...why do these churches seem to be more likely to be 'sick' (or, we are more likely to hear about it) than others?Not to say all are like this but why do we hear so much about them?

Some will say it is because they are doing what is right and that is why people don't like them-that they are the Truth and the world does not like the Truth...but the Bible also says that if people don't like you because of something you are doing then that is on you, and from what I hear here and on other forums, I would lean more toward the latter...

[Beautiful_Dreamer]

bumping up

[Beautiful_Dreamer]

Has anyone here ever felt the need to fake a manifestation to get attention, or suspected someone else was doing this?

I once let a bunch of nonsensical syllables fall from my lips one time because I felt the need to fake speaking in tongues...if it were really speaking in tongues in the glossolalia sense then someone would have interpreted what I was saying but no one did...

[Ontheroad]

Yes...on both accounts: Yes, I have unfortunately faked a manisfestation out of being put under tremendous pressure from the pastor to see evidence of his prayers working. And yes, I have seen that occur with others. It is sad, isn't it, that people get so pressured that they have to contrive something in order to be accepted or to avoid chastisement?

[Beautiful_Dreamer]

Totally...The Bible is pretty clear that tongues is a *gift* and that not everyone is going to have it...so why the pressure for everyone to have it...

[Doug64]

According to one group who practices speaking in tongues, you are more spiritual, completely developed spiritually when/if doing so. You are on a higher plane.

I can't verifly any of this in scripture.

Doug :D

[Willow]

Once... I felt the need to fake falling over backwards once when a man was praying for me. I pushed into his hand instead of falling back and he told me not to step out of "it". I felt like I was doing something wrong by not falling over. I can't remember if I gave into the pressure or not... I think he gave up first. The next time I went up the preacher expected me to fall over and I didn't... he took a gentler approach. This resulted in me relaxing and as soon as I relaxed, my legs buckled out from under me and the expected result happened without any pushing or shoving. I've since come to question this manifestation as possible hypnosis, but at any rate... pushing and pressure would have resulted in a less genuine manifestation.

[dwilliams]

I have been doing extensive research into the different "miracles, signs and wonders" supposedly held as evidence of God's divine touch on individuals such as Benny Hinn, as well as glossalia and the Holy Spirit Batptism.
For all my efforts, I cannot find even ONE documented, proven case to support the active working of miracles in the Christian community today...
Please understand that I am NOT opposed to the possibility of modern day miracles because I do believe that God is God and He can do whatever he pleases, but to sum up my opinion, based on scripture, I would have to say I fall into the group that believes that the Gifts of the Spirit, to include prophecy, utterances and healings were fulfilled in the early Church and recorded within the New Testament...The End. Remember, the Jews were always looking for a Sign or miracle before they would believe.
If anyone can offer documented proof of modern miracles or glossalia uttered in a REAL language, I would be very open to recieving a source!

If anyone is interested in reading an extensive study on the topic of miracles titled:

MODERN-DAY MIRACLES, TONGUE-SPEAKING,
AND HOLY SPIRIT BAPTISM: A REFUTATION
—EXTENDED VERSION—
Dave Miller, Ph.D.

check out this link:

http://www.apologeticspress.org/rr/rr2003/r&r0303b.htm

Everything I have found concerning supposed miracles and signs from God, done by individuals like Benny Hinn, or the pentacostal movement at large, have been proven by research and further investigation to be either false, or involve a recurring illness or ailment within a few short days.
The above link is the closest study I have seen in quite some time that validates my own perceptions of the Gifts of the Spirit, backed by scripture.
Again, if anyone can rebut what I've written in this post by showing actual factual documentation, I am all ears...or in this case, all eyes. :)

Thanks,

dwilliams

[dwilliams]

Any thoughts/opinions on my last...?

[Voyager]

I totally agree with your last post. The absence of the intervention of God during the recent tsunami says everything. God does not get involved with the events that take place on earth. There is no way a "good" God could allow such pain and suffering if He were able to prevent it.

:confused:

[Willow]

If God does not intervene... I have difficulty reconciling the number of people who escape tragedy by narrow means. Yes Virginia... there is a Santa Claus! I guess I'm a hopeless idealist in this sense. I can't let go of the notion that God does intervene on an individual basis. I'm not completely sure about world events... If we could see all the possibilities... would it still seem like God did not intervene? I'm not so sure that I can totally rule out the possibility.

As far as miracles and healings. I've seen more damage done than good through faith healers such as Benny Hinn. Many disillusioned people are left in the wake of such a scam.

[ex-shep]

Soaking: You go up to the front for prayer. Someone prays for you. You fall backwards (usually) and the catcher catches you and lays you down on the floor. You lay supposedly comatose for a while while the Lord speaks to you or heals you, etc.

Maybe we should work on this list some more and make a sticky or an article out of it?

Thanks folks. There's some good additions that are helping me understand a little better where I started going wrong.

Mike


Ok, so you violated one of Lifton's criteria on loaded language :p

In all seriousnes, it certainly described what went on the pentecostal bible school I left in 1984

[ex-shep]

According to one group who practices speaking in tongues, you are more spiritual, completely developed spiritually when/if doing so. You are on a higher plane.

I can't verifly any of this in scripture.

Doug :D


It isn't. That was the whole point of I Corinthians 13. Actually the gifts were supposed used in humility. If I remember right, the Apostle Paul had a short fuse when it came to anyone bragging about the gifts of the spirit.

I shocked a doctoral student in religious studies at Ohio State University when I mentioned that some charismatic christians may argue that I the gift of knowledge. Humbly said, I might or might not. I will let the Lord be the judge of that. I went to explain how a friend and I know when we are praying for each other and know when we are trouble. I shrugged my shoulders and responded in a Yiddish accent, "It's there. What's a follower of Christ to do. I should be so lucky"

[Reg]

I totally agree with your last post. The absence of the intervention of God during the recent tsunami says everything. God does not get involved with the events that take place on earth. There is no way a "good" God could allow such pain and suffering if He were able to prevent it.

:confused:
I hear you John.

I'm going to start a new thread on this theme. Trying To Make Sense of the Tsunami

[dwilliams]

Willow said:
"As far as miracles and healings. I've seen more damage done than good through faith healers such as Benny Hinn. Many disillusioned people are left in the wake of such a scam."

I agree completely...

Concerning major disasters and such, one could argue that these things are part of the prophetic signs of the end times...others chalk it up to science and an ever-shifting world.

As for me, I hold a bit of both views, I guess... I don't want to put God in a box by saying that he doesn't step in from time to time, or that he doesn't answer prayers...it's just that according to my research into the actual "miracles" aspect, with regards to speaking in tongues, healings, modern day prophecy, etc; those things have stopped.

...Again, I have not, in all my research, seen any proven healings, and the "tongues" I've witnessed sound like gibberish. Various studies have been done on glossalic speech that have all come to the same conclusion.
One group actually recorded some glossalic speech, then went to 5 different "interpreters" of this supposed "angelic language" and asked for a translation. Every one of them gave different answers as to what the "words" conveyed...none of the interpretations having any likeness to the others. Another group conducted a 10 year research study, delving into various different countries, languages, churches and religions. Know what they found? Glassalic speech is not only used by Christian Pentacostals, but is used by various different Voodoo adherents, Indian Mystics, and Pagans of all sorts. Furthermore, the speech patterns match! What's more, within the Christian community, those who learn of the Holy Spirit Baptism within a particular Church and "recieve" it through the laying on of hands, will speak in the same style, accent and pattern as the preacher...Meaning that if one were to take a "Spirit Baptized" individual from California and compare him/her to one in Florida, they would match their church, not each other, in form; proving that the speech is learned.
...I used to be a person that went to a chuch called New Testiment Christian Church. Their head pastor and church is in Graham, Washington, but they are spread internationally.
I got to a point where I wanted to get saved, so I spoke with the pastor. He led me, one on one, through the sinner's prayer, which I'm sure we are all familiar with. Then he started "praying in tongues" right after openning his bible to Acts, where it describes the day of pentacost, reading a short couple verses and closing his bible again. He then turned to me, laid his hands on my head and began praying that I would receive the "baptism".
To be honest, I didn't know what to do. I was totally caught off guard, and even though it was just him and me, my mind started racing, trying to think of something to say or do to get the pressure off me. I finally spoke a bit of jibberish, after trying for some time to piece something together in my head that didn't sound english. The whole thing was a little embarrasing. Well, he heard it and immediately jumped to his feet and shook my hand and said thanks and praised God for giving me this wonderful gift...
For a long time, I held onto the idea that I was filled with the Holy Ghost, as witnessed by speaking in tongues...
That was several years ago. I've long since thrown that whole belief-set out the window as well as ceasing my attendance to that church. Biggest reason has to do with seeing others "praying in togues", then listening to myself as I "uttered" this "divine language to God." What I noticed is that I repeated myself over and over again, using the same "words" or strings of "words" in different intervals. It's ridiculous. One man in our church knelt by a wall for an entire 30-minute prayer time, "praying in tonges", saying "aiyeeee, aiyeee, aiyeee, aiyeee" over and over again. When it was all done, the pastor flicked on the lights cause it was getting dark outside and the man had tears streaming down his face, like he was overcome with the joy of what had taken place. I guess the only good thing that comes out of that is the short-term "edification" he felt.....maybe....but what happens when he looks back at what he was doing and begins to question?
When you begin to question, doubt creeps in, right? When doubt creeps in, you seek mentoring for the pastor, right? Then what happens? They either "set you straight" by saying you don't have faith in God or His word, they take your leadership role(if one existed) away from you, or they kick you down the road.
I don't know if anyone has seen a site called exchristian.net, but it is filled with testimonies of people who were cast aside by their church when all they wanted was a question answered or a little guidance.

Anyway...didn't mean to write a book here...
I appreciate everyone's comments.

dwilliams

[Hope 98]

while I KNOW that many instances of "speaking in tongues" and other "miracles" are frauds and part of a show. I also know of miracles that are quite real. They may not be grand, but they are unexplainable in scientific and medical terms.

I know of a man who was crushed under the kind of truck that carries a roll-off - the long dumpsters they use for hauling away old drywall or roofing. There is no reason for him to be alive right now - but he is. I don't know what would prove that he is alive because of prayers on his behalf or God's intervention. But it certainly looks like a miracle to me.

I know a woman personally who had a type of cancer and she was healed without medical intervention.

NO - it wasn't Benny Hinn - nor was it a grand dog & pony show. It was just sincere loving prayer and a little olive oil from the local grocery store.

I don't believe that the signs and wonders, or the gifts or tongues have stopped. That would suggest that we no longer need them, and I don't see this generation as less "needy" than the first century church.

I also don't believe that every silly thing that happens is a sign from God. I remember the fuss over the appearance of gold dust a few years back. I think the same thing now as I did then. If your faith in God is dependent on signs such as that - it's not really faith at all. I believe that if I seek God, I may encounter signs & wonders, but if I seek signs & wonders, I will miss God.

I hope I've made some sense. It's really hard for me to believe that God left heaven and lived and died as a man to save us and then went back to heaven and closed the door behind him. I believe that God is actively involved, we just don't understand what he's doing.

[Savedbygrace]

while I KNOW that many instances of "speaking in tongues" and other "miracles" are frauds and part of a show. I also know of miracles that are quite real. They may not be grand, but they are unexplainable in scientific and medical terms.

I know of a man who was crushed under the kind of truck that carries a roll-off - the long dumpsters they use for hauling away old drywall or roofing. There is no reason for him to be alive right now - but he is. I don't know what would prove that he is alive because of prayers on his behalf or God's intervention. But it certainly looks like a miracle to me.

I know a woman personally who had a type of cancer and she was healed without medical intervention.

NO - it wasn't Benny Hinn - nor was it a grand dog & pony show. It was just sincere loving prayer and a little olive oil from the local grocery store.

I don't believe that the signs and wonders, or the gifts or tongues have stopped. That would suggest that we no longer need them, and I don't see this generation as less "needy" than the first century church.

I also don't believe that every silly thing that happens is a sign from God. I remember the fuss over the appearance of gold dust a few years back. I think the same thing now as I did then. If your faith in God is dependent on signs such as that - it's not really faith at all. I believe that if I seek God, I may encounter signs & wonders, but if I seek signs & wonders, I will miss God.

I hope I've made some sense. It's really hard for me to believe that God left heaven and lived and died as a man to save us and then went back to heaven and closed the door behind him. I believe that God is actively involved, we just don't understand what he's doing.

Hope98

Standing in agreement with you.

Love,

Trish

[dwilliams]

Hope,

:) I like this:

"I believe that if I seek God, I may encounter signs & wonders, but if I seek signs & wonders, I will miss God. " I would further say that one cannot -expect- to see signs and wonders, either. In other words, look to God first and formost and the rest will fall into place, with or without the signs.
I have an open mind, just lack supportive evidence and the burden of proof does not fall on Christianity at large, or God or the bible. It falls on those making outrageous claims.


I agree with most of what you said as well...

I've heard stories of people miraculously being healed throughout my life...but never any hard facts about the person(s) involved. Unlike you, I haven't had the opportunity to see someone first-hand, so all I can go off of is documentation...on the other hand, you mentioned something to do with olive oil(correct me if I'm wrong). I HAVE seen quite a few people using some of the strangest methods as cures for all sort of ailments, from aids to cancer to diabetes, etc. The results from their methods have been anything from complete remission to the ailment disappearing from their body. I haven't necessarily seen this in a big way, other than remissions, from manufactured medicines; but rather from the use of natural remedies. God's creation, in my mind, truly is complete. Why humans spend so much time and effort trying to create pills, rather than looking to God and what He's given us is beyond me.
I know I'm going on a tangent, but it seems that the FDA really should start looking into natural remedies, conducting research into that. I don't know about all you fine folks out there, but when the doctor prescribes me with a bottle of augmentin or some other form of drug that has a warning label that says according to research 1 out of every 100 people had severe constipation, 3 out of 100 experienced severe headaches and dizziness, 2 out of every hundred experienced vomiting and bloody stools and a small handful out of 1000 experienced death, it makes me wonder what in the world I'm even taking the pill for! :) Seems, if I turn out the one of the smaller end of that ratio, I'd rather just stay sick! :)

Cheers,

dwilliams

[Hope 98]

Re: Olive oil. The woman who had cancer was annointed with olive oil during a prayer time for her healing. The pastor was pleased that he didn't get any special oil, and knew that the oil was symbolic rather than significant to the process.

[dwilliams]

...very interesting!

Believe me, I'm interested in stories like that and won't say I don't believe them...it's just that there is such a severe lack of documentation or proof or further tests that are done on these cases...

I'm glad she was healed and hope everything is still going great for her.

Do you know of any sites that deal specifically with topics like this that show actual evidence? Like I said, my research has come up lacking in any real evidence or proof...

Thanks,

dwilliams

[Voyager]

Here's the clincher for me. Let's say God heals an Indonesian woman of cancer. Then the next week, the tsunami hits, and she loses all her children, her husband, numerous relatives, many of her friends, her home, and everything she ever knew.

What's the point? :confused:

(Sorry, I don't mean to offend anyone - I just think in black and white.)

[4trustful one]

No offense here, Voyager. ;) Your questions are perfectly legitimate! I wish more people had the courage to "search" through the difficult questions :o

[dwilliams]

Do you know of any documentation of healings given to an Indonesian woman of cancer? Many people speculate and even those actively involved in the pentacostal church world at large speculate about the "gifts" of modern days, but bottom line is, they have nothing to show as evidence...

That's the problem I have. I just don't think healings really happen much in the church anymore. ...not saying it doesn't happen. Just saying more than likely it won't.....and if it does, I really, really want to see proof.

Thanks,

dwilliams

[Florence]

There are just some things that my little pea brained mind will never figure out in this life. But then, maybe I don't need to know.

For "who has known the mind of the Lord . . . ?" 1 Cor. 2:16

I do know that my sister-in-law was supposed to die while she was in a coma and all of her vital systems were failing three years ago. There was no explanation for her recovery except that a group of us at my church prayed for her. She walked out of the hospital only days later and lived for three more years. The doctors and nurses called her "a miracle." We did not look upon her death last fall as a tragedy, but as a time to rejoice for the "extra" time we had with her.

Why did she live? Why did she die? I don't know. But I believe God is faithful. I don't know what His plan is outside of His promise to take me home to live with Him because I have put my trust in the death and resurrection of Jesus. Beyond that, I don't know . . . I don't think I need to.

Florence

[dwilliams]

...good post! :)

dwilliams

[Beautiful_Dreamer]

Oh here is another rather sick teaching or idea that isnt limited to charismatic churches, but frankly pisses me off everytime I hear it...

...they blame things like the tsunami, famine/war in Africa, or other deplorable conditions that people have to live in in other countries of the world on that country's being 'heathen' and thus 'cursed' for not being Christian...and conversely will say that the US is blessed by God because it is Christian. First of all, most of the time the premises are totally false because right now African countries have more Christians than we do and have felt the need to send missionaries *back* here and to Europe for that reason...and the US is not a Christian country. Not really. It might be more Christian than any other religion but the government is secular (but the ones who say things like this would love to take over the land and make it a theocracy, IMO)...and second, these statements show NO hint of the compassion of Christ at all because even if an attempt is made to help the people in the situation, they do not seem to have any clue that we are all *HUMAN* and perhaps there are other reasons for the things that happen...and I don't know where these people get the idea that it is acceptable or desirable to kick someone when they are down but that is exactly what statements like this do...

Oh and even countries that are Catholic or Orthodox do not escape this judgement, because to these people they are often the only true Christians anyway and the Catholic and Orthodox churches may as well worship my cat.

I am sure he wouldn't mind that:)

[dwilliams]

...I was in the military for a little over 7 years.
I was stationed here in the states, when Bush decided to start sending troops into Iraq. There was a preacher from one of the non-denominational pentacostal churches in the local town that stormed up to the front gates of our post with his congregation, shouting down the army as being ungodly. He shouted slanders against the nation and government, threatening God's divine punishment on us, taking an American flag and dragging it across the street, stomping on it in protest, piling dirt on it and tearing it up.
...What a great display of God's love, right...? :confused:

It's always been a practice of the church to blame people for disasters....

I've even heard people say that the unexplained disappearances of the mayans was a Godly act of wrath for their heathen ways and that God caused hell to open up and "swallow" them whole like the story of the army in the old testament that got swallowed by the earth...

[Beautiful_Dreamer]

D, I have heard that one too. and I another one that was rather interesting was the explanation for 9/11 and about how some people thought that was the end of the world or whatever...what bothered me was that one guy at my then-job thought it appropriate to talk to another christian woman about it being the wrath of God coming on the country WHEN THE WOMAN WAS WAITING TO HEAR IF HER BROTHER WHO WORKED IN THE TRADE CENTER WAS ALIVE OR NOT. Could he have picked *any* other time to say this??? And when you remind them of things like compassion and tact or get upset, they of course start whining about how we are upset because we 'cant handle the truth' and how they are the ones going to heaven and we are just being 'rebellious' or something like that. ugh!

[Jerry]

Dear Dreamer,,,,
I have a theroy as to what these people are,,,,however it is not my intent to offend you so lets just say it involves the use of a colorful metaphore involving a referance to a part of the anatomoy in the general vacinity of the rectum ;) A flippant post ??? Yes I suppose,but what else can you do but laugh at such ignorance ???
Love Jerry :D

[dwilliams]

:)

Good one, Jerry!

...don't really know how to respond to people like that.
By their estimation, lower level devestations might very well be termed an "act of God's Wrath" ......for instance, someone's house burns down...a drunk driver hits and kills a mother and children on their way home from soccer practice...an airplane malfunctions and all its passengers burn to the ground with zero lift and are killed...a kid falls out of a tree and breaks his neck...someone drowns in the ocean...

All acts of God's divine judgement...not on a country, but a single person...or small group of persons...

Of course, when one of the "brethren" are killed in similar situations, God saw fit to "bring them home" to be with Him. Everything's hunky-dory. KWIM?

...except...over in Iraq in some Muslim paper, these things are probably cited as evidence of Allah's wrath on "The Great Satan" called America, right...?

[Beautiful_Dreamer]

Yep jerry I agree with you, and I am glad that the person apologized for his bad timing.

[simp0491]

the initial incident that made me begin to question my charismatic church was the never said, but ever implied notion that those who suffer from severe depression or other mental disorders were clearly attacked by satan. this view goes on to imply that the use of anti-depressants is flippant and ineffective because what is truly called-to-order is a prayer of repentance.
this "recipe" for freedom from depression calls the follower to ask God to show him/her what "lie" he/she chose to believe that sent him/her into a downward spiral. after asking God forgiveness for believing the lie--only then will God show him/her the truth and the depression will be ridden.

this following has other names, but the one i am familiar with is called Ancient Paths. http://www.familyfoundations.com/AboutAP.htm.

and while some teachings sounded okay, I simply could not get over the fact that I had to ask forgiveness for something that clearly was not my fault to begin with. telling someone who suffers from depression that he/she should ask forgiveness is ridiculous and shaming of its victim. even if i DID believe a lie... why would i be the one to apologize? shouldn't it be the source that implemented the lie?

why is it that a person with a broken arm has a better chance of church acceptance for getting his arm set, than a person with depression has for going to a psychologist and seeking medication?

[ex-shep]

[QUOTE=simp0491;47829]the initial incident that made me begin to question my charismatic church was the never said, but ever implied notion that those who suffer from severe depression or other mental disorders were clearly attacked by satan. this view goes on to imply that the use of anti-depressants is flippant and ineffective because what is truly called-to-order is a prayer of repentance.
this "recipe" for freedom from depression calls the follower to ask God to show him/her what "lie" he/she chose to believe that sent him/her into a downward spiral. after asking God forgiveness for believing the lie--only then will God show him/her the truth and the depression will be ridden.

this following has other names, but the one i am familiar with is called Ancient Paths. http://www.familyfoundations.com/AboutAP.htm.



Does look creepy. The pentecostal connections were a bit much for me. Depression is a biochemical disorder. When I looked it from that angle, my health started to improve. This disdain for anything outside of their group set off alarms bells for me.

[Carmen]

I checked the site out too, they do have links to ministries at Colo. Springs which are involved in some questionable doctrines not to mention other directions. A lot of ministries in Denver have ties to Colo. Springs and the Apostolic/Prophetic groups and/or the WPC. I was involved with some of those questionable churches in that area years ago - I consider what is coming from some particular Colo. Springs groups to be a sort of poison that is seeping out from there, it has been affecting Denver and the whole area a long time.

I agree with you simp, that depression isn't a sin. How could it be? These people are reading scripture with blinders on. They are adept at twisting it to their conceptions of what it should mean, I wouldn't have anything to do with them.

Depression always has a cause, and I think that the answer could be found in prayer for some people, others will benefit more from professional counseling and/or meds. I agree, a person with a broken arm goes to a doctor, why not a person with broken well-being? The cause may be more difficult to find and treat, it could be emotional or physical, but just relying on prayer, confession and something like a shaman's mumbo-jumbo would be irresponsible, I think. I wish these people would stop living in their fantasy world, stop pushing it on others and grow up.

[hoipoloi]

This important thread does so speak to my condition (as the old Quaker once put it). I'll be reading and re-reading all the wisdom here, but as in interim, many thanks to all.

As I have mentioned before, my wife and I attend a CE church which is becoming extremely funamentalist and charismatic, using Rick Warren techniques (I got this piece of info from here at SAF) and selectively condemning all who do not enter into it.

Now my wife has many friends here and wants to keep attending, hoping for better times, but I have not kept my mouth shut and have been subjected to appaulingly sustained SA. Complaining to the Bishop will only make things worse (they all look after themselves against the common 'erd like me) but if we are pushed so far as to go, I will put all my concerns to the Bishop.

And so now I'm keeping low profile hoping that the preachers begin to have other concerns. Soon the extension of the church building (which is not really necassary at all, except to give outsiders the idea that the headless-chicken activity must show that the church is growing). The money is not really coming in as expected and so no doubt loans will be necessary -- "temporary numbers and long-term financial debts" as what has happened to other Rick Warren churches.

But low profile may not be enough.

I'm reminded of Christ's comment to the church at Sardis -- You have a reputation for being alive, but you are dead, I know your deeds.

Sorry for the rant -- feel a bit better now.

[hoipoloi]

This important thread does so speak to my condition (as the old Quaker once put it). I'll be reading and re-reading all the wisdom here, but as in interim, many thanks to all.

As I have mentioned before, my wife and I attend a CE church which is becoming extremely funamentalist and charismatic, using Rick Warren techniques (I got this piece of info from here at SAF) and selectively condemning all who do not enter into it.

Now my wife has many friends here and wants to keep attending, hoping for better times, but I have not kept my mouth shut and have been subjected to appaulingly sustained SA. Complaining to the Bishop will only make things worse (they all look after themselves against the common 'erd like me) but if we are pushed so far as to go, I will put all my concerns to the Bishop.

And so now I'm keeping low profile hoping that the preachers begin to have other concerns. Soon the extension of the church building (which is not really necassary at all, except to give outsiders the idea that the headless-chicken activity must show that the church is growing). The money is not really coming in as expected and so no doubt loans will be necessary -- "temporary numbers and long-term financial debts", as what has happened to other Rick Warren churches.

But low profile may not be enough.

I'm reminded of Christ's comment to the church at Sardis -- You have a reputation for being alive, but you are dead, I know your deeds.

Sorry for the rant -- feel a bit better now.

:confused:

[hoipoloi]

:)

I don't know what happened to give a double posting.

Many apologies for cock-up.

[hornblower]

hoipoloi
I love your name.
You know what the church doesnt matter what or where or who it is charismatic fundamentlist the bottom line thing is its worldly..........WORLDLY.........meaning there are jealousies and arguments of any kind and everykind going on.
Good for you in speaking up!
But you know you will always be persecuted.
Thats the way it is always because of the extreme worldliness that goes on.
My son wanted me to read Rick Warrens book I went out and even got the work book and the whole nine yards studied it had a hard time with some of it and most of it yawned my way through every inch of it.
Im simply being honest about it its sort of like duh the first thing I did with God when I got to know Him so it was like going back to kindergarten to me. It hit my SA pretty strong and thats the part I had the hard time with........but heres my point in all of this.
Since the church is worldly and we know it is or when you say something there you wouldnt be getting persecuted like you are.......thats the jealousy in them and the arguing.......via world........peace reigns and love in a real church atmosphere there should be freedom to be yourself...........ITS A STUPID FAD!
Churches always do that stuff now days just like the world does. Whatever is in style whatever is tickling their ears thats what they are into and its all such a bore really.
You poor guy........I dont know what I would do if my husband was doing this kind of thing. I know he has probably looked at me many times and known this about me that I was following them down their same drains to a bitter end and that is where its going to lead them.
Ive always for the most part gotten hit for not following thank God........but it hurts I know it does. Thats really why I stay away but I dont advise anyone to follow me.
I am praying that you can find peace in just being with Jesus and listening to Him and Him alone. Look at what the word says about this thing of following Apollos whoever that guy was or following Paul, as if a mere man had the answers. it made Paul sick and it makes us sick too. It will end in a garbage can with many dead souls with it.
Poor Warren..............one wonders if he ever had any idea what would happen with that poor little book he wrote and if he buys into any of it. I hope and pray for him that he could be brave enough to find the light and stand up and say CUT IT OUT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
But you know there would go all of that money............?????????

[hornblower]

ok I read some more about the depression thing..........my kookoo stepehens minister remarked to me in all seriousness too that cancer stems from worrying which is a sin.............thankyou DR Stevens Minister for once again as all these churchey types think you have just made a huge painful experience contained into your limited knowledge box with all of the other creepy crawley little worms in there!

I just stared at her.

So heres what Im sup[posed to do now.........I have cancer Im duh like worried and anxious........I open the bible I see Jesus said DONT DO THAT!!!!!!!!!!!!!! So now Im worried and anxious that I am worried and anxious!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Yeah this stuff is really working good!

Paul was depressed! The bible says so. Depressed unto death feared for his life many times.............
Are they saying that man was a sinner like they are?????????????
Well go ship wreck your boat then and get stoned baby and let me hold the cloaks while you do ok?

How about Jesus in the garden of gethsamane? Bleeding through the pores of His skin you think he might have been a little anxious about His empending cross????????????????

Yuk these pharisees.........they make me gag........no wonder Jesus called them white washed tombs.....................nothing but dead bones in there they stink pretty bad.

These words of Jesus about these things are for our healing and to know that He surely does understand our problems in living here........come to Me all you who are heavey laden and I will give you rest...............Jesus is about resting and being loved and nothing else............who is the condemner of this age?
The same one that condemned poor righteous JOB is standing on our doorsteps and all of his no good friends are right there with him.
Be it known my brother you belong to the Lord! These same things they are doing and saying to you they did all of that to Him too and more even so you are never alone, we stand with you in this place here.

[ex-shep]

The stephens minister is need of some serious retraining. The program is based upon listening and support. I could do without the sermonizing.

Psalm 88 is an cannon for a reason. So is Psalm 137. God does give us security, but he does not tell us to park our brains or emotions. The references to Paul and fearing for his life are appropos. He did learn to be content in all circumstances, but was open about where he stood too.

With emotions, it is important for me to own it and not let it own me.

[Elisabeth]

Here's a point of view from a person who was spiritually abused in a Baptist church and was then started on the path to healing by an Assembly of God church. I am now back in a Baptist church.
Although some of the points that are mentioned are stuff you would only find in a Charismatic church, not all of them are. Some of the stuff, like depression being because of some sort of "sin" can be found an any church. Also, things that are said to be to magnify the Lord but are really puffing up the pastor can be found in any church.
No denomination holds any kind of monopoly on spiritual abuse, and no denomination is entirely composed of spiritually abusive churches. That said, these things that are listed, yep, they are signs of a sick church.
Manifestation of gifts of the spirit are good things, but if the manifestation is the only thing that people are looking for, instead of praying for the weak among them, looking for the sad or sick, etc. then the church has their eyes on puffing themselves up instead of reaching people for Christ and loving people, which is living the Gospel. :D

[hornblower]

The stephens minister is need of some serious retraining. The program is based upon listening and support. I could do without the sermonizing.

Psalm 88 is an cannon for a reason. So is Psalm 137. God does give us security, but he does not tell us to park our brains or emotions. The references to Paul and fearing for his life are appropos. He did learn to be content in all circumstances, but was open about where he stood too.

With emotions, it is important for me to own it and not let it own me.

ex shep its like anything else in a church setting. Any church Ive ever been in anyway. Because I need help that makes me not spiritual enough and because I am coming to them they are spiritual enough!
Spiritual pride is the most prevalent thing that grows in these environments in my book anyway thats the way I see it namely because I am always needing help and will go to very huimbling circumstances to get it I always open myself up for this kind of abuse. Its my own fault and I know it but I get so very lonely.

Ill never for get almost the first or second time I came here to the forum years and years ago. I kind of almost got into it with Theodora. Lol. I wasnt used to her gentle intelligent talk and also internet was a whole new thing for me too. Writing is so different than talking you know what I mean? Anyway as she and I wrote to each other via email she said to me one time. Your problem is you are more mature of a Christian that they are.
I was so shocked.
But in truth its true.
The more trials we all go through the better we are............Im not asking for them you understand far be it from me mercy is all I pray for?????????
We are better because we can in turn talk to people that are hurting from the same things we just went through and comfort them.
So why is it I dont have some huge ministry?
Just for that one reason.
Pride which seems to be oozing out of me right now but Im only telling you the real truth and you know Im right about this ex shep.
Lets be honest.
We hate it that we are here being miserable in all of this mess.........my biggest fault is I grumble and we all know I do.
I wish Id stop suck it up and go on and be happy.
My stevens minister is now shoving this forgiveness pamphlet at me on benedictine monks and how they buried a shooter of one of theirs, two of thiers actually, right along with their own dead. So now I guess she is telling me I needd to forgive my daughters attacker.
Obviously like all the other do gooders I know she hasnt heard a word from me. Shes never listened to a thing Ive said.

The train whistle is going off in the distance here ex shep.......I love that sound.........always wish I could travel on a train do you ever feel that way?

These people. They are everywhere and truth is Jesus is the only person I can trust with my pain about my daughter or anything I suffer. I dont know why I write. I hate burdening people. They cant help me. Im just so mad at God you see? Why doesnt he just make her happy and normal? I could walk away and pretend it doesnt breeak my heart.........thats how others do it. Or like my neighborlady at the lake.........Im about to think she is all too right about me and then if I do begin to admit that I will have to blow my brains out. She says I am a bad mother and a bad wife too.
She says I need to go out and get my daughter a job and not take no for an answer. She says my daughter needs to work at the Y.
(that would be nice but of course they are a bunch of stuck up little panty waist high schoolers that have their butts too high)
no sense talking to her shes got her mind made up about me and she says she is on my daughters side................I have no idea whos side she thinks Im on but anyway I should get a job too to help pay for her which I did do for years and years and years.
agh
its all so sickening.
I prayed and forgave that no good little brat that did that to my daughter first thing. It doesnt matter to me if hes in heaven I hope he is. My gosh that was 30 years ago.
So? He went out and murdered somebody elses kid after that. Yep he did! And then they let him go.

Its all Gods problem thats the way I see it. I do not understand these things. But let me tell you something ex shep. Im no benedictine monk and I dont have to put on a show and have people write a pamplet about me burying the murderer next to my daughter............ha!
What a bunch of crap!
I dont wear a robe or walk around doing whatever it is they think they are doing.
I only have one thing to say about that........I wonder how those mens parents felt about that and did these benedictine monks care about them at all???????????
Nope they didnt not one bit Ill bet they didnt even think of asking them how they felt that their sons were murdered?
How much you want to bet?
All in the name of appearing to be soooooooooooo spiritual........now isnt that special?

Im going to have to ditch her. She leads the whole thing. She wont let me near a regular person. Im too sick or maybe dangerous or something or maybe she just likes to hear the next installment in my sorry a** life so she can make herself feel even more spiritual again.
Im bored anyway.
She doesnt believe in speaking in tongues thats clear, and I do so what am I doing????????????? I dont know what Im doing hanging around her at all.
Or hanging around period!
except maybe to listen to trains.
Pray for me that my daughter will be able to forgive me AGAIN! Ill go back to Jesus and ask Him for forgiveness too.
I dont want to confront this lady shes so sweet to me putting up with me and all of that shoving her silly churchified crap at me.
Lets face it Im hopeless ex shep.

[hornblower]

Here's a point of view from a person who was spiritually abused in a Baptist church and was then started on the path to healing by an Assembly of God church. I am now back in a Baptist church.
Although some of the points that are mentioned are stuff you would only find in a Charismatic church, not all of them are. Some of the stuff, like depression being because of some sort of "sin" can be found an any church. Also, things that are said to be to magnify the Lord but are really puffing up the pastor can be found in any church.
No denomination holds any kind of monopoly on spiritual abuse, and no denomination is entirely composed of spiritually abusive churches. That said, these things that are listed, yep, they are signs of a sick church.
Manifestation of gifts of the spirit are good things, but if the manifestation is the only thing that people are looking for, instead of praying for the weak among them, looking for the sad or sick, etc. then the church has their eyes on puffing themselves up instead of reaching people for Christ and loving people, which is living the Gospel. :D


amen sister preach it!

[ex-shep]

I would support you on finding a different source of counseling and support. Fortunately the virtual coffee pot is always brewing.

[hornblower]

I cannot imagine where that would be ex shep except for here.

[ex-shep]

I cannot imagine where that would be ex shep except for here.


I believe thou havest a point. Next latte on me.