"Banned From Church" - Wall Street Journal

[mary]

Get this, guys:

http://online.wsj.com/public/article/SB120061470848399079-qR9UbyV4HvtwSujP_4sk5XmxzNg_20080217.html?mod=tff_ main_tff_top

The cell phone audio link from this site, with the pastor actually calling 911 to have a 71-year-old woman removed "ASAP" from the church building (she'd disagreed with him on a point of doctrine), is chilling.

I consider this is "fair warning" to me should I ever think I could go anywhere near four (4) particular churches around here with whose pastors I've disagreed on doctrinal points (and with one of which there was another issue as well).

Unbelievable.

mary

[FreeinJesus]

Thanks for posting this GREAT article Mary!!

For me, it was very validating!! We disagreed w/ "pastor" & got excommunicated, church disciplined & now the icing on the cake we have been shunned.

For what??

murder? NO
lying? NO
cheating? NO
idol worship? NO
child abuse? NO
stealing? NO

we were excluded for "VARIANCE"....translated:
we disagreed w/ the theological system & preachers skewed interpretation of it. In their eyes we are 'dogs who have returned to our vomit'.
Reality is stranger than fiction that's for sure!!:rolleyes:
I know God sees all of the BS...

[Reg]

Thanks for this Mary.

I made a comment on one of the Blogs at the bottom of the article called Brutally Honest about False Authority...
http://www.brutallyhonest.org/brutally_honest/2008/01/banned-from-chu.html#comment-98917918

[mary]

So... This woman wanted a board of deacons elected in a tiny little congregation. That's Biblical (the book of James provides for it, as does Galatians, among others). But this very young pastor considered her request to be an offense sufficient to terminate her 50-year membership over! :eek: :eek: :eek: So that's what's coming out of seminaries these days. I rest the case that I suggested awhile back as to there being some textbook out there that teaches seminary students how to abuse the sheep. It's there - and it's required reading in seminaries across most, if not all, denominational lines.

(((FIJ))), you're welcome. And I marvel at the similarities between your situation and ours. You're right about truth being stranger than fiction, too. One reason that my husband and I were in "Pastor's Doghouse" prior to my being thrown out was that we asked for some sort of Bible study or Sunday school (they didn't have one and we desperately wanted one). Another thing that merited us not-so-plush canine accommodations at that church was our request for the Gospel to be preached from that pulpit rather than New Age psychology. We phrased it more diplomatically than that, of course, but that's what the basic idea was. How presumptuous we were, thinking that we could impose on "pastor's" and the "elders'" time like that! Well, that's what we were told, anyway.

But what got me thrown out was my husband's admonition to "pastor" that he keep his hands to himself around me, which he was failing to do - and my husband, truthfully, at that time didn't know the half of it - and my reaction to it. "Pastor" got nasty; I told him in private to quit morphing into my father on me; "pastor" took exception to that and paradoxically, in the same conversation, told me that I was, in private, to engage in certain activity with him. I laughed him off (mistake). Told him I was sorry for comparing him to my father, but he said I was "forever beyond (his) forgiveness and reconciliation" and threw me out. I was thrown out not for the doctrinal discussions (there were a couple of other points, but the Bible study and Gospel ones were chief), but for refusing him "the other." I console myself now that this was no church that I was thrown out of; it was a stronghold of the devil himself. That whole denomination, from the local elders here right up to the Head Swine in Charge across the pond, is of Satan, not of God. Anyone who denigrates marriage, their own and/or someone else's, is, in effect, denigrating the very covenant that Christ made with His Church. Ultimately, God will deal with them.

Reg, you, too, are most welcome! :) I very much liked your blog posting on there: now you've given those people the benefit of your wise counsel! Everyone should take a look at what you had to say on there...

But you know what? What was done to this lady in the article still bothers me. How dare this "pastor" do this to someone who is one of the "elder saints," one who had given so much, one whom he should have respected as someone probably 35-40 years his elder? I wish this guy would get on this forum... I want to hear his defense of this atrocity.

mary

[FreeinJesus]

... So that's what's coming out of seminaries these days. I rest the case that I suggested awhile back as to there being some textbook out there that teaches seminary students how to abuse the sheep. ....
... How presumptuous we were, thinking that we could impose on "pastor's" and the "elders'" time like that! Well, that's what we were told, anyway.

...... I console myself now that this was no church that I was thrown out of; it was a stronghold of the devil himself. .... Anyone who denigrates marriage, their own and/or someone else's, is, in effect, denigrating the very covenant that Christ made with His Church. Ultimately, God will deal with them.

But you know what? What was done to this lady in the article still bothers me. How dare this "pastor" do this to someone who is one of the "elder saints," one who had given so much, one whom he should have respected as someone probably 35-40 years his elder...

How right you are Mary!! and .....how strange is this? My Xpastor only went to 'seminary' for a year or so, never graduated. He was "self-educated" yeah, right.:rolleyes:
You know, he had the "calling"...:rolleyes:....so.....it's NOT just the guys coming out of the seminary, the supposed 'self-taught' ones can be bad just the same.

There must be something about human nature & those in leadership/authority who have an aversion to "accountability". Definitely a "human nature" thing IMHO.

Thank God that you got OUT of that place that calls itself a "church" Mary! My husband & I were talking today and we are so thankful that things w/ that cult church didn't work out!!! By *not* working out, things for us actually *worked* out!!!:D:p:D How strange is that??:D

[mary]

The Lord works things out for us, FIJ! :D If we "can't see the forest for the trees;" if we're weak; if our reasoning is off-kilter or whatever -- if He wants us OUT of a place, He will make sure that it happens! Things worked out for you and your husband because, as you say, the Lord made them work out. They worked out in His way and yeah, it hurt, but He made it happen. You received a blessing! He could have left you there, but He didn't. How great is that?!

Your Xpastor sounds a lot like mine. As a contrast to 98% of ministers (and even, for that matter, Catholic priests) I've ever known, my old "pastor" used to pride himself on the fact that he never read commentaries. "I don't read anyone's books. I can exegete the Bible for myself," he used to say. At the time, I thought that was a preposterous and ignorant thing to say, but I never addressed it with him. Yours was self-taught, huh? If the Holy Spirit isn't teaching these people, and if they're not even availing themselves of human expositors of God's truth so that they can at least pretend to have personal knowledge of it, then who's teaching them? We're warned about that: "Be not wise in thine own eyes..." (Proverbs 3:7). These people are being taught by "the other guy..." and yes, God will take His children away from them.

Now, as to this lady in the WSJ article: I have to make some peace with what I read about her, because the story has "triggered" me big-time. I guess I'll pray for her and conclude that God took her away from an ungodly pastor as well. He didn't want her giving all that money to a "congregation" from which He'd removed His presence by allowing a poseur like that to be its pastor. He must love her very much, and He will not leave her to be scattered forever (Ezekiel 34). She'll be enfolded into another and better congregation, and her "pastor" will pay for what he did to her.

All praise, honor and glory to the King of the universe, and our mighty Lord and Savior Jesus Christ! For not even a sparrow can fall to the ground or a hair fall from our heads that He doesn't notice! He does care; we just can't see exactly how much He cares!

mary

[FreeinJesus]

You received a blessing! He could have left you there, but He didn't. How great is that?!

Your Xpastor sounds a lot like mine. ...I've ever known, my old "pastor" used to pride himself on the fact that he never read commentaries. "I don't read anyone's books. I can exegete the Bible for myself," he used to say. ... We're warned about that: "Be not wise in thine own eyes..." (Proverbs 3:7). ...

Now, as to this lady in the WSJ article: I have to make some peace with what I read about her, because the story has "triggered" me big-time. I guess I'll pray for her and conclude that God took her away from an ungodly pastor as well. ....mary

My xpastor used to say the same thing, he'd talk about how he didn't need to be reading all of those bible commentaries.....I just think that he couldn't stand to be taught by someone else, but I could be wrong.:rolleyes:

I feel badly for that lady though...she WANTS to stay at that church!!:confused: I'd be fleeing, but then again, she spent 50 years there, so I do see her not wanting to abandon what she spent so many years involved in. Maybe she will be a thorn in the arrogant preachers side??:D:):p It would do him some good maybe?

God bless ya Mary!!
FIJ

[Jerry]

Maybe she will be a thorn in the arrogant preachers side??:D:):p It would do him some good maybe?

God bless ya Mary!!
FIJ

Dear FIJ,,,,
I feel sorry for the "Preacher",the old lady isn't a thorn in his side,but the measure by which he will be judged :( Weather the old lady is right or wrong is beside the point,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,"kindness" is the point ;)

Love Jerry

[FreeinJesus]

Dear FIJ,,,,
I feel sorry for the "Preacher",the old lady isn't a thorn in his side,but the measure by which he will be judged :( Weather the old lady is right or wrong is beside the point,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,"kindness" is the point ;)

Love Jerry

Jerry, I'm not sure I get what you are saying
here..:confused:

I'm not the brightest person... :o:p

[mary]

Well, I can't speak for Jerry, obviously, but when I read his reply here, I immediately thought about the book "The Hiding Place" by Corrie ten Boom. There's one incident in that book in which Corrie and her sister, Betsie, I think, are in the concentration camp and they're witnessing a female guard beating another prisoner. Betsie exclaims, "Oh, the poor woman!" Corrie thinks she's referring to the prisoner and asks her about it later. But Betsie says no, she was really referring to the guard. "She doesn't have Christ - she's so lost..."

Same can be said of those "pastors" who abuse the sheep. By the measure that they have abused their flock, will God mete out their punishment. This is not an enviable position to be in.

By the level of failure to forgive that these pastors have shown God's people who were put into their care, will God not forgive them.

I could almost feel sorry for this "pastor" in the article, if I weren't still angry at him for what he did to that elderly lady!

Is that something of what you meant, Jerry?

mary

[FreeinJesus]

That makes sense Mary! :)
I'm such an idiot!:o:rolleyes:

I hope I didn't give the impression that I agreed w/ the nutcase preacher....or that it came across that I thought the lady was guilty of something :confused:

The preacher is a nut & the lady is innocent....though I still don't get why she'd stay in that fold with such a 'Diotrophes'. However, I do understand because she has 50 years being in that group. Those shepherds should be helping & upholding the flocks...not trampling on them/us.:(:( God sees it.

[mary]

That makes sense Mary! :)
I'm such an idiot!:o:rolleyes:

I hope I didn't give the impression that I agreed w/ the nutcase preacher....or that it came across that I thought the lady was guilty of something :confused:

The preacher is a nut & the lady is innocent....though I still don't get why she'd stay in that fold with such a 'Diotrophes'. However, I do understand because she has 50 years being in that group. Those shepherds should be helping & upholding the flocks...not trampling on them/us.:(:( God sees it.

You most certainly are no idiot, FIJ!!! :) :) :)

No, you gave no impressions that you agreed with The Nut or thought anything derogatory about the lady...

And there's no way that I can put myself in her position. I haven't built a church or stayed in one for 50 years (not that anyone would ever allow that to happen! - :cool: :D The longest I've ever made it in a church "without incident" was 17 years, and that time included from when I was baptized at age 2 weeks and onward. When I was 17, I wrote my first "kvetching" letter to a pastor, questioning some teaching, and I was "off to the races" from then on.). I'm not this lady's age. She feels as though that's her place of worship and she's not going to let some clown 40 years or so younger take her church away from her. Said clown should NOT take her church away from her!

You're right, FIJ. There'll come a day for each of our abusive pastors that they will heartily regret what they've done to each of us. Everything they've done, everything they've said, everything they've conscripted their families and others to do to us for our harm will be turned upon them instead and exposed for the whole world to see.

They have not honored the Lord; they have done anything and everything but give Him the glory that He is due. And they'll pay for it. God's justice demands it.

mary

[Jerry]

By the level of failure to forgive that these pastors have shown God's people who were put into their care, will God not forgive them.

I could almost feel sorry for this "pastor" in the article, if I weren't still angry at him for what he did to that elderly lady!

Is that something of what you meant, Jerry?

mary

Yup ;)

[mountain]

Great post Mary

I have been through this same thing this year and saw my Dad shunned after 43yrs of faithful service to such an organization...

The strange thing about this one is it seems to be a mainstream denomination which is rare to see such open confrontation...

mtn

[mary]

Thanks, Mountain...

I'm sorry about your dad's trauma; I know you've spoken of it before... Yes, it's hard to believe that a mainline church would run someone out like that. He must have been a living example of the truth of 2 Corinthians 2:14-16 - and they just couldn't take it. Or him. I do think those verses (and others, of course) explain many of the incidents of "shunning" that we see, both here on this forum and elsewhere. John 16:1-2. Yeah, they'll put people "out of their synagogues..." Because God has "given them over to a reprobate mind."

But as Betsie ten Boom implied, they're to be pitied more than are we who are their victims. We who know the Lord Jesus Christ and exhibit the fruit of the Spirit are not heading into a Christless eternity, after all...

mary

[mountain]

Thanks, Mountain...

But as Betsie ten Boom implied, they're to be pitied more than are we who are their victims. We who know the Lord Jesus Christ and exhibit the fruit of the Spirit are not heading into a Christless eternity, after all...

mary

That is good Mary... thanks

I hope all is well

I have some good looking pups... they are at 6 lbs at the 4wk mark and now eating their own food... it has been fun indeed...

mtn