grace

[FoxInSox]

How are you guys learning about grace?

[yeshua'smags]

See my signature below...;)
Welcome to the forum.:)

[Learning to trust]

I am learning about grace as I experience it within healthy unconditional, grace filled relationships. People that accept me for who I am ... even with all of my faults and weaknesses.

[FreeinJesus]

Hi FoxInSox!:)

I think about how Jesus' love is unconditional.
(I have some bible verses in here for those who may be trigged...tho they are 'graceful' verses, I think)

When Jesus gave up the ghost, he said "it is finished" and he "by himself" purged our sins & He didn't need my help or yours. :) So....I am so thankful & in awe, my eternal destiny is secure in Jesus. However.....in this life, ah-ha!!! That's another story. What except God is secure in this life? That is where I believe the 'conditional' issues come in. Even when our children don't behave right, their foolish behavior doesn't make them 'not' our children, they still are, though they may suffer consequences of their behavior. The same with God. He knows we make mistakes & I just love the fact that HE REALLY UNDERSTANDS. When there isn't a soul who can show compassion or empathy our way, guess what? God can & He does. This is what keeps me going & my hope.

So....I just think that God is love & His mercy is as far as the east is from the west. Thinking about God's grace has been what has helped me to get through our horrible experience with a 'bible cult'. The wrongful discipline & judgment, the shunning & the shattering damage done by religous zealots; hurtful beyond belief & those who I've read on other forums who would doubt the validity of "spirtual abuse" don't understand & probably wont understand unless they experienced what we have :(

But still....God is with me,:) I believe this. He is with those who call on Him & especially those who are hurting.
I need GRACE. We all need God's grace & it is there, it is real. When I focus on God's grace I do so much better, but sometimes the enemy comes & puts those anti-grace ideas in my head..."God doesn't love you...you left that 'church', how can you call yourself a christian?...look at what the 'preacher' has said about you & so many people look up to him & respect him, he can't be wrong.??"
Oh the enemy wants to put doubts in my mind, but then I remember that NOTHING can seperate us from the love of God which is in Christ & I believe it means just that! Thoughts like this really help me because I need to deprogram the 'pharisee' 'us-vs-them' religious thoughts. I believe God is helping me to over come & I pray He will help you too! There certainly is HOPE in our merciful God.
Hang in there!!!!

[SpinningHead]

How are you guys learning about grace?

Sometimes the hard way...sad to say.:rolleyes:

[mountain]

How are you guys learning about grace?

I never understood grace the first 40 years of my life... and when I first began to make progress, I was explaining to my wife about Jesus in front of a new pastor that actually did me a lot of good even though things did not work out between us...

What I was explaining to my wife was that we had grown up with lots of TRUTH in our previous church but little if any GRACE... and I explained to her the great thing about Jesus was that he balanced TRUTH with GRACE...

The pastor corrected me and gave me a nugget that I will carry to my grave...

He said "Jesus did not BALANCE truth and grace... He was FULL of them BOTH... ie Jesus knows the ABSOLUTE TRUTH about us and about our world... and he makes no excuses for us in regards to where we err... However, Jesus is also FULL of GRACE to the point he accepts us WHERE we are and is our WILLING partner in our spiritual growth with FULL acceptance...

However, He does desire growth for us just like any mentor or Father... He desires good things for us... Paul said it best... shall we remain in sin so that grace may abound... God forbid...

Note Paul did NOT say grace WOULD NOT abound...

So I look at it this way... Jesus has paid the price for my sins... past, present, and future... AND He wants to lead me to become the MATURE person I was created to be through growth... that means accepting his grace and his truth to see who I am and asking for his strength to grow beyond where I am...

Also key to this in my humble opinion is the Lords Prayer... Jesus said to pray for forgiveness of our shortcomings as we forgive our neighbor...

Another very important nugget... that which we are given we MUST offer GRACE to others JUST as it was offered to us... and again we will do that imperfectly but it is His intent that we grow in His Grace to that point...

Take what helps... blessings

mtn

[Hope 98]

I hope this doesn't cause any issue, but it's important that I share it.

God showed me grace directly and supernaturally.

When I was 15-17 years old, I was involved in a terribly abusive relationship that included rape, pregnancy and abortion. I carried the weight of both the sins committed against me, and my own sins. I had "prayed the prayer" and attended the "youth group" and all that, and learned that God was real and holy and I was weak, dirty and rebellious. Somehow, in some small moments, I felt the connection from time to time.

Decades later, I realized I had drifted very far from God, and had no idea how to find Him again. I found myself alone in my kitchen praying. Telling God that I wanted a relationship with him again, and that as soon as I figured out how to pay for the abortions and various other things I felt so horribly guilty about, I would "come back".

I didn't hear an audible voice, but inside my head and heart I "heard" for the first time, "you can't pay and you can't clean up - that's what I died for and that's why I'm here"!

I found that God accepted me in a condition that I couldn't accept myself, and I understood what grace is in a way that I can't even say with this story.

[mountain]

I didn't hear an audible voice, but inside my head and heart I "heard" for the first time, "you can't pay and you can't clean up - that's what I died for and that's why I'm here"!

I found that God accepted me in a condition that I couldn't accept myself

amen... I had the same type experience

Grace is unmerited favor... you cant earn it if you tried...

the voice I heard said... you dont have to do this to yourself... I have already paid your way... go free...

I was trying to fix myself... and driving myself and everyone else crazy...

I also realized that if everyone scrubs themselves enough, everyone is guilty and no one is saved by their own strength...

It is quite a relief to realize there is another way...

mtn

[Learning to trust]

I hope this doesn't cause any issue, but it's important that I share it.

God showed me grace directly and supernaturally.

When I was 15-17 years old, I was involved in a terribly abusive relationship that included rape, pregnancy and abortion. I carried the weight of both the sins committed against me, and my own sins. I had "prayed the prayer" and attended the "youth group" and all that, and learned that God was real and holy and I was weak, dirty and rebellious. Somehow, in some small moments, I felt the connection from time to time.

Decades later, I realized I had drifted very far from God, and had no idea how to find Him again. I found myself alone in my kitchen praying. Telling God that I wanted a relationship with him again, and that as soon as I figured out how to pay for the abortions and various other things I felt so horribly guilty about, I would "come back".

I didn't hear an audible voice, but inside my head and heart I "heard" for the first time, "you can't pay and you can't clean up - that's what I died for and that's why I'm here"!

I found that God accepted me in a condition that I couldn't accept myself, and I understood what grace is in a way that I can't even say with this story.

this is beautiful... grace ... real, active, loving, embracing, forgiving... lived out.

thank you for sharing this. your experience encourages me and gives me hope in a gracious and merciful God ... not just because it is written ... but because it reacheds into broken lives and embraces us.

grace and peace... learning to trust

[Willow]

Grace is kind of like sitting on god's lap and his big warm arms wrap you up next to his strong chest. He smells like daddy and suddenly I feel very small and safe.

[mountain]

Grace is kind of like sitting on god's lap and his big warm arms wrap you up next to his strong chest. He smells like daddy and suddenly I feel very small and safe.

powerful visualization... helpful for recovery

and... true to His word

I think of God now as the perfect Father... rather than the Big Hit Man in the Sky I was raised with...

and it has taken me many adult years to learn about what a perfect Father would be like...

Mine tried but was never shown himself... he could not give what he did not have. Now the role is reversed and I am caring for him instead...

Forgiveness is wonderful...

mtn

[FoxInSox]

"Grace is kind of like sitting on god's lap and his big warm arms wrap you up next to his strong chest. He smells like daddy and suddenly I feel very small and safe."

Not wanting to be argumentative...just want some space to say some things...

I want to gag each time I hear this metaphor. I started hearing it in high school, and I didn't really understand why I didn't get it then. Of course, I didn't share that I didn't get it; we must keep up appearances! I've recently been reintroduced to this concept through an organization full of grace-full, safe people. I still don't get it, I still want to gag, but they had alrady figured that out before I even said it.

I literally cannot imagine such a thing. And, I guess I carry some shame with it. The most recent memory of my dad holding/hugging me in a daddy kind of way...I was still small enough to be read to. It was the Bernstein Bears, and he did all kinds of funny voices.

But after that...I just don't remember any parental cuddles. (FTR, inappropriate touch was not going on). But, he was just ... absent affectionately. He was very present when big and angry and strong and I was afraid. When feeling pleasant, he went out to the workshop, taking time for me on occasion, but only according to his will, his schedule, his desire. He'd invite, but it was a demand. "Do you want to go..." really meant "you will go..."

Tender and loving? He'd say he was, but that was not my experience.

This, all in our so-called Christian home, where we tried to look so good on the outside, so not wounded, so not broken. I do beleive they are beleivers, but ... their woundedness wounded me ... and they can't see it, they can't admit it. I've come to some peace about THEM, but...



Crawl up into the Abba Father's lap? Way to much father imagery there. I literally cannot imagine it.

[mountain]

"Grace is kind of like sitting on god's lap and his big warm arms wrap you up next to his strong chest. He smells like daddy and suddenly I feel very small and safe."

Not wanting to be argumentative...just want some space to say some things...

I want to gag each time I hear this metaphor. I started hearing it in high school, and I didn't really understand why I didn't get it then. Of course, I didn't share that I didn't get it; we must keep up appearances! I've recently been reintroduced to this concept through an organization full of grace-full, safe people. I still don't get it, I still want to gag, but they had alrady figured that out before I even said it.

I literally cannot imagine such a thing. And, I guess I carry some shame with it. The most recent memory of my dad holding/hugging me in a daddy kind of way...I was still small enough to be read to. It was the Bernstein Bears, and he did all kinds of funny voices.

But after that...I just don't remember any parental cuddles. (FTR, inappropriate touch was not going on). But, he was just ... absent affectionately. He was very present when big and angry and strong and I was afraid. When feeling pleasant, he went out to the workshop, taking time for me on occasion, but only according to his will, his schedule, his desire. He'd invite, but it was a demand. "Do you want to go..." really meant "you will go..."

Tender and loving? He'd say he was, but that was not my experience.

This, all in our so-called Christian home, where we tried to look so good on the outside, so not wounded, so not broken. I do beleive they are beleivers, but ... their woundedness wounded me ... and they can't see it, they can't admit it. I've come to some peace about THEM, but...



Crawl up into the Abba Father's lap? Way to much father imagery there. I literally cannot imagine it.

Same here...

God was the Big Hit Man in the Sky...

and Daddy was the Preacher Man...

Neither were where I wanted to go...

but learning what a perfect Father is can be a powerful thing just the same...

I will never forget the day that happened for me.

mtn

[FreeinJesus]

I found that God accepted me in a condition that I couldn't accept myself.

Hope, EXACTLY!! This is so to the heart of the matter.

Dear FoxInSox, when it comes to ''grace'', I'm thinking there is an intellectual way of understanding it (the head) & an emotional way of understanding it (the heart).

I'm sure I don't fully understand all there is about 'grace' or God's grace, but everyday I just look inside & outside to see or learn, to maybe get a glimpse of 'grace' this side of heaven.

Examples of grace in my own life:
Grace: family & friends unconditionally accepting me after coming out of the 'bible cult' & they even unconditionally accepted me for the 18 some years I was in it!

Not grace: I begin to disagree & have doubts about "teachings" of Xpastor ...decided I couldn't agree & being true to my convictions, quietly left. At one point I was told they would "wash their hands of us"...We were publicly *disciplined*/excommunicated. We were no longer in "their club" so we became less than zero.:confused::(

Too, I have seen my own faults & am now more aware of the way I treated people, good & bad. I've learned from the SA experience....more aware of those on the "outside", .. lots more compassion for *strangers* & people struggling or lonely, that I was not in tune with before this happened. I'm WAY not as judgmental...so I think I've learned maybe to be more *graceful* by what I experienced.

I sure hope I have...:o
Just my thoughts..:o:)

[Jerry]

To understand "Grace" we must first clear up a mis-teaching.Gods Love is NOT unconditional !!!!!,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,yes "NOT" is what I said :D .... John 3/16 sets the condition for Gods Love.We struggle ,with varying degrees of success,to incorporate John 3/16 into the fabric of our personality,,,,varying not only from person to person but also within ourselves day to day.Some days I am a whole lot more "Holy" than others :D...But regardless of where I am on the "Holy Scale" God blesses my family and me....Why ???? I have not yet achieved a full bond with my Savior!!! I try and do pretty good but still it is short of the mark.It is kinda like God is paying me ahead of time....It is like God is showing me unmerited favor :o Oh wait,,,,,,isn't that what "Grace" means ??,,,,,,"Unmerited Favor" ;) So "Grace" isn't unconditional love,,,,,,,It is payment in advance,,,,,payment undeserved to encourage us to press on......

[mary]

To understand "Grace" we must first clear up a mis-teaching.Gods Love is NOT unconditional !!!!!,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,yes "NOT" is what I said :D .... John 3/16 sets the condition for Gods Love.We struggle ,with varying degrees of success,to incorporate John 3/16 into the fabric of our personality,,,,varying not only from person to person but also within ourselves day to day.Some days I am a whole lot more "Holy" than others :D...But regardless of where I am on the "Holy Scale" God blesses my family and me....Why ???? I have not yet achieved a full bond with my Savior!!! I try and do pretty good but still it is short of the mark.It is kinda like God is paying me ahead of time....It is like God is showing me unmerited favor :o Oh wait,,,,,,isn't that what "Grace" means ??,,,,,,"Unmerited Favor" ;) So "Grace" isn't unconditional love,,,,,,,It is payment in advance,,,,,payment undeserved to encourage us to press on......

Being the only one here - I think - who hies to the doctrines of grace from a really strictly Reformed perspective, I would only offer this as part of my "grace" perspective: http://www.monergismbooks.com/The-Doctrines-of-Grace-Rediscovering-the-Evangelical-Gospel-p-16349.html.

God's grace and the attributes and benefits flowing from it are on display throughout the Bible. There's the old argument about whether there is such a thing as "common grace" (promulgated by Dr. Richard Mouw) or whether there isn't, and there is only God's providence towards those who aren't saved (David Engelsma). I tend towards the Engelsma position, but am open to listening to the Mouw one.

The subject is too vast for me to get into here. Suffice it to say that I know I'm an undeserving recipient of God's grace, and all I should ever do is thank Him for it! :) And display the fruits of being a recipient of it, in everything I do. Of course, I fall so far short of the mark - but then, His grace lifts me up.

BTW, you all might be interested in knowing that our baby church held its first Lord's Day service yesterday! Now we'll have services every Sunday (preaching the doctrines of grace), the minister and his family are relocating here shortly from out of state - and we are up and running! To think, this was just an idea the Lord gave me last January - and here we are! We had 18 souls in attendance yesterday, and we are so grateful to the Lord for His gracious and generous blessing of us! :) :) :)

Thanks and blessings to all who prayed for this effort! We're still praying that the Lord would bring more people, but right now, it's looking good.

Love to all - and WELCOME TO THE FORUM, FOX-IN-SOX!!! :D :D :D :D

mary

[Willow]

powerful visualization... helpful for recovery

and... true to His word

I think of God now as the perfect Father... rather than the Big Hit Man in the Sky I was raised with...

and it has taken me many adult years to learn about what a perfect Father would be like...

Mine tried but was never shown himself... he could not give what he did not have. Now the role is reversed and I am caring for him instead...

Forgiveness is wonderful...

mtn

Wow mountain... I'm in a very similar spot with my dad. It's interesting to be able to give them what they weren't able to give us.

[Willow]

"Grace is kind of like sitting on god's lap and his big warm arms wrap you up next to his strong chest. He smells like daddy and suddenly I feel very small and safe."

Not wanting to be argumentative...just want some space to say some things...

I want to gag each time I hear this metaphor. I started hearing it in high school, and I didn't really understand why I didn't get it then. Of course, I didn't share that I didn't get it; we must keep up appearances! I've recently been reintroduced to this concept through an organization full of grace-full, safe people. I still don't get it, I still want to gag, but they had alrady figured that out before I even said it.

I literally cannot imagine such a thing. And, I guess I carry some shame with it. The most recent memory of my dad holding/hugging me in a daddy kind of way...I was still small enough to be read to. It was the Bernstein Bears, and he did all kinds of funny voices.

But after that...I just don't remember any parental cuddles. (FTR, inappropriate touch was not going on). But, he was just ... absent affectionately. He was very present when big and angry and strong and I was afraid. When feeling pleasant, he went out to the workshop, taking time for me on occasion, but only according to his will, his schedule, his desire. He'd invite, but it was a demand. "Do you want to go..." really meant "you will go..."

Tender and loving? He'd say he was, but that was not my experience.

This, all in our so-called Christian home, where we tried to look so good on the outside, so not wounded, so not broken. I do beleive they are beleivers, but ... their woundedness wounded me ... and they can't see it, they can't admit it. I've come to some peace about THEM, but...



Crawl up into the Abba Father's lap? Way to much father imagery there. I literally cannot imagine it.

Hi FoxInSox... That was completely my own reality... I wouldn't want to say everyone has to have that same imagery.

I have a very similar experience with my father... emotionally unavailable, angry, disinterested. I can relate to your repulsion on a certain level. I have some enormous feelings of rage when I try to "submit" to God in prayer. The other night I tried to pray the 3rd step prayer and nearly buried a fork in my arm over it. What I wrote came from a deep need in me. I'm literally starving for the kind of affection I wrote about though. I mean STARVING! So... if I can go there in my mind, it kind of fills a need that wasn't met way back when. So grace to me would look like something I never got and am starved for... I'm really trying hard to get a new image of God. One that I can trust and when I pray that prayer to submit... it won't be painful, but pleasant. I'd like to get to the place that I feel safe enough with God and people that I can even feel eager to throw myself back into it. I'm not there now. The word "service" triggers me in ways that leave me reeling....

OK... all for now.

Love the honesty in this thread. thanks!
Amy

[mary]

Amy, I so relate to what you've posted here... I hope this post doesn't cause any triggers; I'm relating what's helped me, and what I pray for with regard to you.

Our first images of "God" are supposed to come from our earthly fathers. That's why they're given to us. But you and I had fathers who were the polar opposite of what God wanted us to have as images of Him. My father, as I've said here before, started throwing me against the wall as soon as I came home from the hospital as a newborn. As a consequence, I had to live at my grandparents' for the first several weeks of my life. The beatings, kicking sessions, extreme verbal abuse, etc. continued in part even after I got married and moved out. I last heard, "You are worthless slime and I'm going to kill you" from my father when I was past 40 years old.

God as "Father?" "Father" is virtually a four-letter word to me. And I know it's a similar situation for you. I've prayed over and over, for years, that somehow, God would reveal Himself to me as a Father whom I need not fear, that "Father" would somehow mean something/Someone the opposite of terrifying to me, that some understanding of love could be associated with Him and especially with the idea of Him as Father. Jesus said, after all, that whoever has seen Him has seen the Father. And Jesus Himself was/is "Everlasting Father..." (Isaiah 9.)

God waited years to answer that prayer, but He is finally answering it, slowly but surely. The memories of my earthly father and the indescribably horrible person he was are fading (he died in 2003; I've never been to his grave and until last week, I didn't even know where it was - not that I'm ever going to visit it). God is slowly infusing Himself alone as "Father" into my consciousness and He's extracting my earthly father from the place of "importance" that he once held for me.

I pray for you, Amy, that He'll do the same for you... For to see God as Father is to see His gracious provision for our eternal life, Jesus Christ. That's how much He loved us.

No, I still can't see God as Father as so many here and so many other Christians do. Just because I can't see Him as fully that yet, though, doesn't mean that He isn't there for me. If a good earthly father hides behind a door, or goes off to work, does that mean that his love isn't there? No! But no earthly father could love you and me as God can! That's the great part.

"Father?" Amy, you and I, father-starved "little girls," do have a Father. One Who will never disappoint us or leave us.

I continue to pray for you...

In His love,

mary

[Reg]

How are you guys learning about grace?
Hi FoxInSox,

We discussed this on a previous thread. A lot of good comments there...

growing in grace
http://www.christianrecovery.com/vb/showthread.php?p=8966&highlight=amazing+grace#post8966

[FreeinJesus]

To understand "Grace" we must first clear up a mis-teaching.Gods Love is NOT unconditional !...,,,yes "NOT" is what I said :D .... John 3/16 sets the condition for Gods Love. /SNIP/ ,,,isn't that what "Grace" means ??,,,,,,"Unmerited Favor" ;) So "Grace" isn't unconditional love,,,,,,,It is payment in advance,,,,,payment undeserved to encourage us to press on......

God IS LOVE...& the condition for human salvation was met by Jesus. Definitely!
I agree w/ the definition you give of 'grace' Jerry.

I just have to focus on God's mercy (grace) because life & men can be very cruel & in God's name especially.:(

((Mary)) I was in a "calvinist" *church* for those 18 years..I still believe in the doctrines of grace, I just have major problems w/ their theology on the "true church" and those issues. My abusive X was also 'landmark baptist' type...no acknowlegment of the 'universal church'....so I'm having to sort this crap out (man's doctrines) & really I don't even care anymore!!!! The only reason I stayed as long as I did is because I *believed* Xpreacher taught "grace" & I now see it was "prove your loyalty!"....that's a long way from free grace.:(

[Reg]

In Dr. Henry Cloud’s book “Changes That Heal” here is what he says about Grace in the first
chapter, “Grace and Truth”

“Grace is something you can never get but is only given. There’s no way to earn it or deserve it or
bring it about any more than you can deserve the taste of raspberries and cream or earn good looks
or bring about your birth.

To put it another way, grace is unconditional love and acceptance. Such love is the foundation
upon which all the healing of the human spirit rests. It is also the essence of God. God is love.
(1John 4:8). And God loves us freely, without condition.........

Both love and grace come to us through Christ. (Rom 5:8, Gal 1:6) And both are unique in that
they are undeserved. Grace is the first ingredient in growing up in the image of God. Grace is
unbroken, uninterrupted, unearned, accepting relationship. It is the kind of relationship humanity
had with God in the Garden of Eden. Adam and Eve were loved and provided for. They knew
God’s truth, and they had perfect freedom to do God’s will. In short, they were secure; they had
no shame and anxiety. They could be who they truly were.

Perhaps you have experience this kind of love and grace with someone? You can be exactly who
you are. You do not hide your thoughts and feelings; you do not need to perform; you do not need
to do anything to be loved. Someone knows the real you and loves you anyway.

Grace, then, is the relational aspect of God’s character. It shows itself in His unconditional
connection with us. ”

[FreeinJesus]



/SNIP/
grace is unconditional love and acceptance. Such love is the foundation upon which all the healing of the human spirit rests. It is also the essence of God. God is love.
/SNIP/
Grace is unbroken, uninterrupted, unearned, accepting relationship. It is the kind of relationship humanity
had with God in the Garden of Eden. Adam and Eve were loved and provided for. They knew God’s truth, and they had perfect freedom to do God’s will. In short, they were secure; they had no shame and anxiety. They could be who they truly were.

Perhaps you have experience this kind of love and grace with someone? You can be exactly who you are. You do not hide your thoughts and feelings; you do not need to perform; you do not need to do anything to be loved. Someone knows the real you and loves you anyway.


Reg, THAT IS GOOD STUFF!

[mary]

God IS LOVE...& the condition for human salvation was met by Jesus. Definitely!
((Mary)) I was in a "calvinist" *church* for those 18 years..I still believe in the doctrines of grace, I just have major problems w/ their theology on the "true church" and those issues. My abusive X was also 'landmark baptist' type...no acknowlegment of the 'universal church'....so I'm having to sort this crap out (man's doctrines) & really I don't even care anymore!!!! The only reason I stayed as long as I did is because I *believed* Xpreacher taught "grace" & I now see it was "prove your loyalty!"....that's a long way from free grace.:(

AMEN, FIJ, as to your assertion that God is love and our requirement for salvation was entirely met by Jesus Christ!

I've tried to go to churches such as you describe, "landmark Baptist," but I never feel at home there. I don't know why. I'm happiest and feel most at home among staunch Calvinists - and yet the church I was most seriously abused in was (or purported to be: I now think "pastor" was a total and utter fraud) extremely Calvinistic. I think that Calvinism exercised by a person or people without the indwelling of the Holy Spirit is an absolute monstrosity and takes on more the function and mentality of the Third Reich than it does Christianity. Entire denominations have been caught up in this sort of thing. The problem, too, in my old church was that "pastor" insanely (and I never use that term loosely) blended some form of Calvinism of his own concoction with tincture of the occult, thereby mixing a most effective, toxic cocktail that contained nothing of the Lord Jesus Christ. It was just so sick... :mad: It was as lethal to one's spiritual life as antifreeze on a garage floor is to wee cats and dogs. And that was just what he did to others; he "added a few things" to the way he "ministered" to me.

The doctrines of grace, "Calvinism," practiced by people and in a congregation in which the Holy Spirit is present, lively and active, are loving, freeing, peace-dispensing, glorious displays of mercy, grace and lovingkindness. Giving all the glory to the Lord Jesus Christ and relying not at all upon our own "merits" is the goal. Our new church, our new congregation and minister, aspire to that... I pray that the Lord's hand of blessing is on it, and that souls will come to Christ...

Love,

mary

[hornblower]

right now I only understand grace in my mind not in my heart and thats where I need it to be.n I know the facts of the bible on what grace is. I know I dont deserve for God to love me. Ive done nothing ever for Him in fact I dont thinik He needs me to do anything for Him he has what He needs already........
I cant give Him anything He has it all anyway. He knows me better than anyone He made me.
He died for me and He didnt have too.
Hes going to give me heaven some day.
Thats what it says. I believe it because I have too believe it Ive experienced it so I know its real.
In my heart though I want some things. I dont want things to be the way they are. I dont care why they are the way they are I just want it to stop and leave me alone. I want things to be the way they once were and be joyful and peaceful and worry free for awhile......a long while.
I dont want to feel alone any more and I dont want to feel sick. I want Janice to be miraculously healed along with my daughter. I want my daughter to be happy and normal and have a friend a good friend one of those good friends for me would be nice too. Enough money so we wouldnt have to worry all of the time if we are going to be a burden on my son when we get unable to do things any longer. Id like some peace again in this friggin world so I could sleep peacefully again. Id like to know that my daughter is going to be safe and that maybe she might even get married to someone decent some day. I would like to be helping somebody else for a change. Id like to go back I guess to the days when I first knew Him and we were such a good team I thought any way. Back before everything went to smitherines.
So yeah Im struggling with grace tonight if any of that is about grace. Ive always heard it is a free gift.
Id like to have some more free gifts........I think Im probably spoiled rotten. Maybe I want too much.
I hung the phone up on my daughter awhile ago I just couldnt take it any more and now I want to die again.

[mountain]

To understand "Grace" we must first clear up a mis-teaching.Gods Love is NOT unconditional !!!!!,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,yes "NOT" is what I said :D .... John 3/16 sets the condition for Gods Love.We struggle ,with varying degrees of success,to incorporate John 3/16 into the fabric of our personality,,,,varying not only from person to person but also within ourselves day to day.Some days I am a whole lot more "Holy" than others :D...But regardless of where I am on the "Holy Scale" God blesses my family and me....Why ???? I have not yet achieved a full bond with my Savior!!! I try and do pretty good but still it is short of the mark.It is kinda like God is paying me ahead of time....It is like God is showing me unmerited favor :o Oh wait,,,,,,isn't that what "Grace" means ??,,,,,,"Unmerited Favor" ;) So "Grace" isn't unconditional love,,,,,,,It is payment in advance,,,,,payment undeserved to encourage us to press on......

right on bro jerry...

mtn

[Jerry]

right now I only understand grace in my mind not in my heart and thats where I need it to be.n I know the facts of the bible on what grace is. I know I dont deserve for God to love me. Ive done nothing ever for Him in fact I dont thinik He needs me to do anything for Him he has what He needs already........
I cant give Him anything He has it all anyway. He knows me better than anyone He made me.
He died for me and He didnt have too.
Hes going to give me heaven some day.
Thats what it says. I believe it because I have too believe it Ive experienced it so I know its real.
In my heart though I want some things. I dont want things to be the way they are. I dont care why they are the way they are I just want it to stop and leave me alone. I want things to be the way they once were and be joyful and peaceful and worry free for awhile......a long while.
I dont want to feel alone any more and I dont want to feel sick. I want Janice to be miraculously healed along with my daughter. I want my daughter to be happy and normal and have a friend a good friend one of those good friends for me would be nice too. Enough money so we wouldnt have to worry all of the time if we are going to be a burden on my son when we get unable to do things any longer. Id like some peace again in this friggin world so I could sleep peacefully again. Id like to know that my daughter is going to be safe and that maybe she might even get married to someone decent some day. I would like to be helping somebody else for a change. Id like to go back I guess to the days when I first knew Him and we were such a good team I thought any way. Back before everything went to smitherines.
So yeah Im struggling with grace tonight if any of that is about grace. Ive always heard it is a free gift.
Id like to have some more free gifts........I think Im probably spoiled rotten. Maybe I want too much.
I hung the phone up on my daughter awhile ago I just couldnt take it any more and now I want to die again.

What a wonderful prayer ;)

[FreeinJesus]

I've tried to go to churches such as you describe, "landmark Baptist," but I never feel at home... I'm happiest and feel most at home among staunch Calvinists -

I think that Calvinism exercised by a person or people without the indwelling of the Holy Spirit is an absolute monstrosity and takes on more the function and mentality of the Third Reich than it does Christianity. Entire denominations have been caught up in this sort of thing.

....he "added a few things" to the way he "ministered" to me.

The doctrines of grace, "Calvinism," practiced by people and in a congregation in which the Holy Spirit is present, lively and active, are loving, freeing, peace-dispensing, glorious displays of mercy, grace and lovingkindness.

....

Dear Mary, I sure hope that the new church home works out for you.:)

Seems that your Xpastor was a 'wolf'...I hate to judge, but by what he put you through & expected of you....HOW WRONG!:mad: Your Xpastor is someone to run from & like a bat out of hell! I am glad you got away from that, but I know the wounds are there...they wont ever go away, but hopefully over time the wounds will heal more & more.

Your statement in bold I completely agree with!

My Xpastor was a toxic combo of 'landmark baptist/primitive baptist/calvinist'... I don't think I could ever step foot into any type of a baptist *church* or fellowship. The same w/ the "reformed"...:(

Be thankful you never felt at home w/ the 'landmarks' because personally I think their "true church" theology is WAY OFF, I'll stop there because I don't want to get into any "doctrine" discussions. I've had my fair share of them & just can't stomach it....too much damage done in "doctrine's" name.:(

I give you credit Mary for even attempting to get involved w/ "church"....as for myself it's been weeks...I feel better not going right now. When & if I'd ever look into joining I'd probably go to a liberal *safe* denomination....the *strict* churches can cause MAJOR damage.:(

God bless you Mary!

[mary]

Awww, ((((FIJ!))))) Thank you!!!! :) :) :)

I concede - although another minister of another denomination with whom I spoke about this disagreed - that I am culpable to the extent that I didn't run like the wind as soon as I knew "pastor's" true intent. I believed him when he said I had nowhere else to go. I told myself lies like, "Surely he won't do/say that again," etc. I am not a child. And I hope I know sinfulness and pride (on my part) when I see it. But my sins are covered over and have been purged by the blood. The pain I suffered -- that was the Lord Jesus's chastisement of me, and I'm grateful for it, for it's over now and I never want to go through anything of that nature again. We sin; the Lord teaches us how not to sin again, and He sanctifies us so that the next time, it's easier to resist that sin. All praise and glory to Him!

I do hope you join a church soon, FIJ; I know it's painful to think about, but Christians need to be with other Christians. I pray for you to find a home, with other like-spirited people... :) May God bless you richly, FIJ, as you receive His edification and His leading in your search -- which is really HIS search on YOUR behalf!

On another topic, I had a most interesting appointment with my hematologist today. I changed my mind on something: I will not refuse to be transfused because I'm afraid of hemolytic reactions. He told me that he cannot treat me if I won't let him use "all of his resources." If I were 30 years older, he said, "maybe. But I can't let someone your age just die." So - I settled it with him that if I need emergency surgery or have a spontaneous bleed, I will consent to an attempted transfusion. Chances are 99.9% I will go into a hemolytic reaction and that'll be that. I'll be going home. But I can't in good conscience "tie my doctor's hands behind his back." He took the Hippocratic Oath and he has to do what he has to do. I finally saw the light on that; he made me see it. If the aplastic anemia or myelodysplasia kicks up, I am going to have to consent to treatment, whatever it consists of. In doing that, I'm sort of "picking my poison" (the doctor agreed with that characterization), but it's necessary. This was a very big deal to me, and now it's settled. I feel as though a big weight has been lifted off of me, and I know it was the Lord's doing.

Thanks, everyone, for putting up with me. And I thank my Lord and Savior, for I know that it was His mercy and love that made this come about.

Love to you, FIJ, and to all,

mary

[FreeinJesus]

will[/U] consent to an attempted transfusion. Chances are 99.9% I will go into a hemolytic reaction and that'll be that. I'll be going home. /snip/. This was a very big deal to me, and now it's settled. I feel as though a big weight has been lifted off of me, and I know it was the Lord's doing.

Thanks, everyone, for putting up with me. And I thank my Lord and Savior, for I know that it was His mercy and love that made this come about.....



(((Oh Mary))), I did not mean at all to cause you to feel like any of that was your fault!:( That person had a position of power over you ...a "spiritual authority" so please don't beat yourself up! It was abuse by him, plain & simple..he took advantage of a lamb that he was 'shepherding' Mary. I meant that he's a *dangerous* person who people should be fleeing. And you are right, GOD has forgiven you & all of us! We are only humans & we all make unwise choices left & right (I know I do!!:o)...but it certainly doesn't help when the supposed 'man of God' is leading in a wrong direction! I hope so much that you don't blame yourself because yes, you are an adult, but we all do things we maybe would NOT do if the *pressure* wasn't there.. God bless you to have peace...Jesus took care of it for you.:)

As for your medical decision Mary, I am glad that you have made a decision that you can be somewhat at peace with. I wish & pray that your situation, was better.....I don't understand much in this world & why things go the way they do ! :confused: Thanks so much for letting us know how things are going w/ you!! Your health issues must be a burden for you...:(

Maybe the doc is holding out that you wont have that reaction....modern medicine can do so much more than in times past. Mary, you are in my prayers!

I am going REAL slow w/ "church".....maybe someday I'll find my place, but for now I'd rather be a "wandering lamb" w/ the LORD as my shepherd, than in a group w/ an abusive shepherd. I also have found that I felt really tired after what we had gone through & it is wonderful to just sleep in on a Sunday morning & say "thank you God" for the rest!:D:)
Well...I'm feeling sick tonight so I have to get to sleep....
hubby & I are coming down w/ something..I guess it's that time of year.
God bless you Mary & I really appreciate your input on this forum, you have so much to give & have given so much, THANKS!!:D

[Reg]

One more important thing to notice about grace is that it is mentioned together with truth. It is the balance between the two that are very important. It's when they get out of balance that problems occur.

Joh 1:14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.
17 For the law was given through Moses, [but] grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.

Truth without grace breeds a self-righteousness legalism that poisons the church and pushes the world away from Christ. Grace without truth breeds moral indifference and keeps people from seeing their need for Christ.

Truth is quick to post warning signs and guardrails. Yet it fails to empower people to drive safely, to avoid plunging off the cliff, and fails to help them when they crash. Grace is quick to post ambulances and paramedics at the bottom of the cliff. But without truth, it fails to post warning signs and build guardrails, and therefore encourages the very self-destruction it attempts to heal.

Grace without truth deceives people, and ceases to be grace. Truth without grace crushes people, and ceases to be truth.

Any attempt to "soften" the gospel by minimizing truth ultimately keeps the world from grace. Any attempt to "toughen" the gospel by minimizing grace keeps the world from the greatest truth—His redemptive work on man's behalf. Christ went to the cross, in the ultimate act of grace, because He would not ignore the truth of His holiness and our sin. Grace never ignores or violates truth—rather, it offers restitution and joy by satisfying Truth's demands. ("Go and sin no more.")

Like a binary star consisting of two suns that revolve around each other, truth and grace are equal and inseparable. Luther said the devil doesn't care which side of the horse we fall off of—as long as we don't stay in the saddle. A saddle has two stirrups. To stay in the saddle, the church needs to mount the horse with one foot solidly in the stirrup of truth, and the other solidly in the stirrup of grace.

Grace and truth make us live in such a way that there is no human explanation for our lives—in the absence of human explanation, people turn to God as the reason behind what they see. Our children, our neighbors, and we ourselves long for Jesus—we can offer Him only by offering His grace and truth.
http://www.epm.org/gtparadox.html

[Jerry]

Something in Regs post triggered a thought.........Faith is me trusting God...........Grace is God trusting me.....God must really love me cuz I wouldn't trust me ;)

[Reg]

When I read this scripture the words "justifies the ungodly" leaped off the page. Isn't that what the Grace of God does?


Ro 4:5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness,

[mary]

When I read this scripture the words "justifies the ungodly" leaped off the page. Isn't that what the Grace of God does?


Ro 4:5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness,

It's unfathomable and incredible to us how grace really works, isn't it? But we see the results of it. He "justifies the ungodly," and effects our salvation. Nothing in the world is worth as much as that - and nothing should be valued more than the God Who did that for us!

Goes along with "the just shall live by faith." (Habakkuk; Romans; Galatians, etc.) We all fall short - but we can't fall short enough, if we're His, ever to be lost... :) :) :)

All praise, honor and glory to God!

Love to all,

mary

[mountain]

One more important thing to notice about grace is that it is mentioned together with truth. It is the balance between the two that are very important. It's when they get out of balance that problems occur.

Joh 1:14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.
17 For the law was given through Moses, [but] grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.

Truth without grace breeds a self-righteousness legalism that poisons the church and pushes the world away from Christ. Grace without truth breeds moral indifference and keeps people from seeing their need for Christ.

Truth is quick to post warning signs and guardrails. Yet it fails to empower people to drive safely, to avoid plunging off the cliff, and fails to help them when they crash. Grace is quick to post ambulances and paramedics at the bottom of the cliff. But without truth, it fails to post warning signs and build guardrails, and therefore encourages the very self-destruction it attempts to heal.

Grace without truth deceives people, and ceases to be grace. Truth without grace crushes people, and ceases to be truth.

Any attempt to "soften" the gospel by minimizing truth ultimately keeps the world from grace. Any attempt to "toughen" the gospel by minimizing grace keeps the world from the greatest truth—His redemptive work on man's behalf. Christ went to the cross, in the ultimate act of grace, because He would not ignore the truth of His holiness and our sin. Grace never ignores or violates truth—rather, it offers restitution and joy by satisfying Truth's demands. ("Go and sin no more.")

Like a binary star consisting of two suns that revolve around each other, truth and grace are equal and inseparable. Luther said the devil doesn't care which side of the horse we fall off of—as long as we don't stay in the saddle. A saddle has two stirrups. To stay in the saddle, the church needs to mount the horse with one foot solidly in the stirrup of truth, and the other solidly in the stirrup of grace.

Grace and truth make us live in such a way that there is no human explanation for our lives—in the absence of human explanation, people turn to God as the reason behind what they see. Our children, our neighbors, and we ourselves long for Jesus—we can offer Him only by offering His grace and truth.
http://www.epm.org/gtparadox.html

This is very close to the essence of the reality...

I still remember my earth shaking moment with my first minister as I began my search for grace...

His words was... Jesus did NOT come to BALANCE truth and grace... Jesus was FULL of BOTH truth and grace... it is His will that we FULLY experience both...

We accept truth with a full inventory of our failures according to WWJD... we then accept grace with full forgiveness of our failures where we are... we then commit to accept His strength to make progress on our shortcomings as He provides strength and deliverance... AND we release our brothers and sisters from our judgement so that God can to do the same for them...

my two cents...

mtn

[Reg]

"justifies the ungodly" These words are still resonating in my mind.

Then I read these scriptures.

Luke 16:14 The Pharisees, who loved money, heard all this and were sneering at Jesus.
15 And He said to them, "You are those who justify yourselves before men, but God knows your hearts. For what is highly esteemed among men is an abomination in the sight of God.

I remember a saying along those lines. "Never explain! Your friends don't need it and your enemies won't believe you no matter what you say."

Trying to justify yourself doesn't work. In my heart I know much more deeply who it is who justifies me. Knowing that adds much more weight in the above quotation.

I know where my righteousness comes from.........

Commentary:
There are few words in the sacred writings which are taken in a greater variety of acceptations than the word tsedakah in Hebrew, and dikaiosunh in Greek, both of which we generally translate righteousness. Our English word was originally rightwiseness, from the Anglo-Saxon, , justice, right, and to know; and thus the righteous man was a person who was allowed to understand the claims of justice and right, and who, knowing them, acted according to their dictates. Such a man is thoroughly wise; he aims at the attainment of the best end by the use of the best means. This is a true definition of wisdom, and the righteous man is he that knows most and acts best. The Hebrew tsadak, in its ideal meaning, contains the notion of a beam or scales in equipoise, what we call even balance; and it is well known that in all the personifications of Justice, both ancient and modern, she is represented as a beautiful female with a bandage on her eyes, and a beam and scales in her hand, so perfectly poised that neither end preponderates.

[Reg]

In quoting this phrase "justifies the ungodly" let me make one thing clear lest it be misunderstood. The Bible makes a distinction between the ungodly and the wicked. This understanding will take me more time to process.


#Exod 23:7 I will not justify the wicked.

#Deut 25:1 they shall justify the righteous, and condemn the wicked

#1Ki 8:32 condemning the wicked... and justifying the righteous

#Pro 17:15 He that justifieth the wicked, and he that condemneth the just, even they both [are] abomination to the LORD.

[Hope 98]

In quoting this phrase "justifies the ungodly" let me make one thing clear lest it be misunderstood. The Bible makes a distinction between the ungodly and the wicked. This understanding will take me more time to process.


#Exod 23:7 I will not justify the wicked.

#Deut 25:1 they shall justify the righteous, and condemn the wicked

#1Ki 8:32 condemning the wicked... and justifying the righteous

#Pro 17:15 He that justifieth the wicked, and he that condemneth the just, even they both [are] abomination to the LORD.

There seems to be something here Reg that deepens my understanding or at least expresses the difference between cheap grace and God's forgiveness.

If "godly" means to try to be like God, we will likely become self-righteous and legalistic to the point that we succeed, and feel like hopeless failures where we DON'T succeed. "Ungodly" is then our human condition - as Tim's quote has said "not God"(I don't remember if that's what it is now). God made us to be his children, not Himself.

I suspect that when we struggle to maintain the measure of those things we do to adhere to the law, we lose something of the righteousness that Christ offers.

[Jerry]

In quoting this phrase "justifies the ungodly" let me make one thing clear lest it be misunderstood. The Bible makes a distinction between the ungodly and the wicked. This understanding will take me more time to process.


#Exod 23:7 I will not justify the wicked.

#Deut 25:1 they shall justify the righteous, and condemn the wicked

#1Ki 8:32 condemning the wicked... and justifying the righteous

#Pro 17:15 He that justifieth the wicked, and he that condemneth the just, even they both [are] abomination to the LORD.

Scripturally speaking there is a distinction between "Ungodly"and "Wicked"...An ungodly man sins in ignorance,,,,,,,a "Wicked" man sins for selfish gain when he knows better........Both may receive forgiveness;However; The "Wicked" man may still be subject to the consequences of his sin while the man sinning in ignorance may have the consequences of his sin held in abayance.....at least that is what I understand is being said. :)
Love Jerry

[mary]

Scripturally speaking there is a distinction between "Ungodly"and "Wicked"...An ungodly man sins in ignorance,,,,,,,a "Wicked" man sins for selfish gain when he knows better........Both may receive forgiveness;However; The "Wicked" man may still be subject to the consequences of his sin while the man sinning in ignorance may have the consequences of his sin held in abayance.....at least that is what I understand is being said. :)
Love Jerry

Jerry, but aren't "ungodly" and "wicked" synonyms for each other? I mean, "outside of grace" is where the ungodly/wicked are. "Outside of grace" is just that. And even those of us who live and walk in God's grace, who know the Lord Jesus Christ, occasionally do/think wicked things (Jeremiah 17:9; Romans 3:10; Romans 7:16-20). I know I do. :o Christ was "made sin" so that His righteousness could be put to our account (2 Corinthians 5:21); it's not that we assume His righteousness (as a certain large denomination teaches); it's that we remain in the flesh, still capable of horrendous deeds, but given the ability to resist them because the Holy Spirit lives in us and due to Christ's righteousness, the Father sees us as His own. Compare Leviticus 17:4 with all of Romans 4.

Many of the wicked and the ungodly, however one wants to bandy about the terms, will prosper here on earth "for a season" (cf. Hebrews 11:25), but their day of judgment is coming.

Love,

mary

[Jerry]

Dear Mary,,,
The key word in my post is "may" ;)
Love Jerry

[Willow]

The nacr devotional today really hit this nail on the head for me...

NACR Daily Meditation for Saturday, 1/12/2008

by Dale and Juanita Ryan

(Rooted in God's Love, the book from which these meditations are taken, is back in print. For details go here)

Let us then approach the throne of grace with confidence, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help us in our time of need.
Hebrews 4:16

Many of us find it very difficult to feel confident in intimate relationships. If we learned early in life that the people most important to us were unapproachable, then confidently approaching others as adults may be difficult. There are many ways to learn that approaching other people is dangerous. It can come from abuse, or criticism, or disinterest.

One result of experiences of this kind is that we find it difficult to be confident when we approach God. This is particularly true when we are feeling fragile, weak or needy. The last thing we expect is mercy and grace in our time of need. We expect to be criticized. We expect God to say 'why are you still so needy?'. We expect to be abandoned. We expect God to say 'I'm busy now.' We expect to be rejected. We expect God to say 'If only you had more faith or prayed more or read the Bible more or trusted me more.' With expectations like this, it is no surprise that we lack confidence when approaching God.

But God offers us an invitation we long to hear. He invites us to approach. And, God invites us to come with confidence. God will pay attention. God will hear us. God will be interested in our well-being. God will respond with mercy, grace and help.

I don't have much confidence, Lord.
I don't trust other people very much .
I don't trust you very much.
I don't expect mercy and grace
from anybody, especially in times when I'm this needy.
I expect criticism, abandonment, and rejection.

Thank you for inviting me to come to you.
Thank you for providing good reasons to have confidence in you.
You are full of mercy and grace.

This is a time of need for me, Lord.
Give me confidence to approach you today.
I need your mercy and grace.
Amen.

[Reg]

I did a search of who the wicked were to try to differenciate them from the ungodly. They are those who are inherently evil. I believe there are people who are like that. Who are beyond redemption. Sad as that is.

Ps 9:5 You have rebuked the nations, You have destroyed the wicked; You have blotted out their name forever and ever.

Ps 9:17 The wicked shall be turned into hell, [And] all the nations that forget God.

Ps 37:20 But the wicked shall perish; And the enemies of the LORD, Like the splendor of the meadows, shall vanish. Into smoke they shall vanish away.

Ps 50:16 ¶ But to the wicked God says: "What [right] have you to declare My statutes, Or take My covenant in your mouth,
Ps 109:2 For the mouth of the wicked and the mouth of the deceitful Have opened against me; They have spoken against me with a lying tongue.
(Sounds like our abusive pastors.)

Mt 13:38 "The field is the world, the good seeds are the sons of the kingdom, but the tares are the sons of the wicked [one].

This last scripture identifies who the wicked are.


I made a discovery in my search. The word repentance is not in the OT. Interesting. The Bible says, "Mat 3:8 "Therefore bear fruits worthy of repentance,"

Heb 6:4 For [it is] impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit,
6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put [Him] to an open shame.

Apparantly, the wicked are those who will not repent and are doomed.

Pr 16:4 The LORD has made all for Himself, Yes, even the wicked for the day of doom.
Job 21:30 For the wicked are reserved for the day of doom; They shall be brought out on the day of wrath.

[mountain]

Oh how great is grace... below is from a friend...

He taught that we should forgive our trespassers 7 x 70 in one day...
that is once every 2.9 minutes... so I believe he would not teach
something he would not do... so the Lord is saying, if your brother sins
against you every 3 minutes, forgive him. My point is this, if you sin
against the Lord every three minutes, is he not your Lord and not your
heavenly father, those who taught this, and do you not think that he
would do the same? I say yes, he will forgive, and he understands how
hard it can be...

So, as Reg and I have discussed below, Jesus is FULL of BOTH truth and grace...

Truth shows us our sin; and it is by Grace we are forgiven...

The rationality of this is difficult to understand for sure

But we have a wonderful God who says its so...

Lets just sincerely confess, be thankful for grace offered, and share it with those that sin against us...

It is a mystery I agree, but if we humbly accept it and live it, we dont have to fully understand it.

mtn

[Reg]

Agree Mountain,

Forgiveness is necessary. Yet that is what is so difficult for many of us. The scars from the wounds that are so deep are still there. When we feel the fresh wounds and see the scars, they remind of us of the pain we felt. Because of this, forgiveness does not come easily. To forget, is beyond us. Additionally, to do that would not be wise.

"Once burned, shame on you. Twice, shame on me."

Here is an article from www.forgiving.org ...you can go directly to the article: http://www.forgiving.org/Working/myths.asp

Myths About Forgiveness

Look at what a professor of psychology at Hope College says: "Forgiving doesn't mean ignoring an injustice or letting someone treat you badly. Remember that it's not a wimp's response. It takes a strong, courageous effort to make that move. Letting go of your grudges takes a great deal of moral muscle." (Charlotte vanOyen Wilvliet, quoted in Zest Magazine, (UK) October 2000.) Professor vanOyen Wilvliet's study, "Embodied Forgiveness: Empirical Studies of Cognitive Emotional & Physical Dimensions of Forgiveness-related Responses" was approved for Campaign for Forgiveness Research funding.

Forgiveness is not about glossing over wrongs.
Archbishop Desmond Tutu: "Forgiveness is taking seriously the awfulness of what has happened when you are treated unfairly. Forgiveness is not pretending that things are other than the way they are."

Forgiveness is not amnesia.
"Forgiveness does not equal forgetting. It is about healing the memory of the harm, not erasing it." Dr. Ken Hart, as quoted in Zest Magazine (UK), October 2000. The offense will still be part of your history, but it does not have to dominate your life.

Forgiveness is not pardoning, condoning, or excusing: forgiveness does not remove consequences.
Pope John Paul II forgave his intended assassin in a face-to-face encounter. The individual remains in prison where he can do no further harm.

Forgiveness does not have to include reconciliation; forgiveness is not the same as trusting.
The injured party can forgive an offender even though the offender may never (or for safety sake, must never) be a part of his or her life in the future.

"Forgiveness is not a magic trick that allows us to control other people."

Robert D. Enright, PhD.

Even if you change, the other person may not. Each person has free will.

Here's a thread where we talked about this awhile back...

Forgiveness???
http://www.christianrecovery.com/vb/showthread.php?t=4174&highlight=forgiveness&page=2

[mountain]

I agree comprehending grace is paramount to experiencing forgiveness...

I guess for me, I have OD'd on truth all my life, and finding grace is just such GOOD NEWS that makes most things ok

If I am forgiven and have hope through His grace, I am happy to share it provided I can comprehend my own.

Grace brings me sanity... from my own wrongs and those that are done to me.

It is through grace that I live... without it, I am entrapped in snares of my own while attempting to find vengeance of that done to me... I grew very tired of that life.

Grace is the answer I needed for hope of my own and to find peace with those around me.

mtn

[mary]

By Reg: I did a search of who the wicked were to try to differenciate them from the ungodly. They are those who are inherently evil. I believe there are people who are like that. Who are beyond redemption. Sad as that is.

(For some reason, the "quote" feature isn't working right now... :()

I do believe that one's conscience can become "seared," and I do also think that God hardens some people and as an effect, they won't be saved. There were, after all, in the OT, "stiff-necked" Jews who refused to bow to the Lord and obey His commands. While there are no sins that are beyond the efficacity of Christ's atonement, there are some people who will always reject Him. There is the "unpardonable sin," which is denial of the work of the Holy Spirit. Judas Iscariot committed it (he was predestined to do so), but I don't know of anyone else who did. I've often heard it said and preached that anyone who's in fear that they've committed it, HAS NOT. So that's good news. The Gospel is all good news to those with "ears to hear."

I've known very few inherently evil people in the course of my life. I would never say of anyone who's living that they're beyond hope. You can never say of anyone, even, who has died that you "know" exactly where they are, for you don't. Even my father: I'm 99% certain that he died without trusting in the Lord Jesus, but I don't know for sure. He did exhibit consistently and inherently evil behavior and characteristics throughout his life; if pressed, I honestly don't think I'd be able to come up with even one act of kindness that I ever saw or heard of him performing for anyone except himself. However, his sins, heinous as they appeared, didn't put him beyond the reach of Jesus Christ's mercy, grace and love, if the Lord chose to bestow them upon him. So - I don't know where he is today and I wouldn't presume to state that I do. I don't know if the Lord was gracious to him; it's really none of my business.

Same goes for "pastor." He's still alive - but the Lord needs to give him the grace to repent of the things he's done. After all, against God only (not against me) has he sinned. The score he needs to settle is with God; he will have a more serious account to pay because he did stand as my pastor for awhile, and he "scattered" my family and me and made shipwreck of our faith for a period of time. I pray earnestly that he doesn't face God with that serious of a score to settle.

I guess, therefore, that I've mostly forgiven him. But I'm left with what will probably be a permanent lack of trust in most clergymen. That's better than "putting trust in men," as it says in one of the psalms. A valuable lesson learned, and a thoroughly Biblical principle applied.

Mountain, you have said something so profound in your implication that only because of grace can we stay sane in this world. Only because of grace can we restrain our own evil impulses...

More reason to give praise and honor and glory to God - and to Him alone! :) :) :)

mary

[Reg]

Just read this thread again. Very moving and thorough. For those newer here, it can be a real boost.