new with questions

[FoxInSox]

Can y'all help me figure this out? Was this spiritual abuse, or was it just the result of spiritual experiences being filtered through the lies associated with emotional abuse?

I grew up in what seemed a Christian idyll. My parents are beleivers, I went to parochial school until 6th grade, I attended lots of church activities...

Yet, so many of my church memories are so painful.

My Bible-believing parents are both terribly wounded and were emotionally abusive. My dad is either happy or angry, and when he was angry, I took responsibility for it while he covertly blamed me and my mom excused his behavior and I felt terrified. My dad was very authoritarian over the household, including my mother, who docilely accepted this. Neither parent ever seemed to like me much; there were very few hugs and cuddles, encouragements, "i love you's". Because I seemed unacceptable to them, I assumed I was unacceptable to God. My body and personality were both just too big for them.

Most of my time at parochial school was desperately lonely. I didn't have friends, and it wasn't uncommon for a day to pass without another student talking to me. I didn't fit in with the student body here, and I (baptist/bible church) was not the same denomination (Lutheran) as the school, which meant I was exclused from some things, like communion. My parents didn't beleive me (or at least behaved as if they didn't), and the teachers didn't notice (or acted that way if they did). From this, I learned that I was different, and displeasing to God, and I didn't have any recourse about that situation.

My time in youth group was with a relatively legalistic church. By this time, my parents had quit attending church. The other teens were superficial and in the Good Church Youth Group Role, but the adults doted on them as though they had unique connections with God. The other teens spoke as if they did, and the adults seemed to support it, so I denied what I knew to be true (the fakery), and beleived them. When I never developed that special connection with God, I took responsibility for that in my unholy, unrighteous self.

Then I went to college. I got involved with some really charasmatic people, and followed them like sheep. They were upper classmen, and they seemed to accept me, so even when it didn't seem "right", I followed (Baaa...Baaaa). They/we seemed to think that if we could just get ourselves holy and righteous and justified enough, we could bring revival to our whole campus. (Needless to say, this didn't happen). They also seemed to have all these emotional, spiritual experiences that I didn't have. I wasn't sure if I thought they were nutty or if I was defective.

In all this, I learned that how/when/why/etc I prayed determined how God responded. I learned that a spiritual leader was someone who was a "better christian" than me, which meant that if I wanted to go to church and he didn't, then I couldn't go because that would be spiritual leadership. I learned that a woman is always under the authority of her father or husband, and should he ask her to sin, a woman's response is "Yes." Our first responsibility is to obey our husband or father.

Around this time, I also read "Weigh Down Workshop," from which I learned that because I wasn't thin (although I was definitely within a healthy BMI at that time), I was displeasing to God. The fat I carried around on my body was sin personified, and I needed to excise it from myself. Eventually, this developed into an eating disorder.

When I got married, I discovered that sex was exceptionally painful. I beleived that to admit the pain would be to deny him sex, which was very sinful. It would be the same as denying God; after all, my husband was the representative of God for our new home. This craziness lasted about six month. Each time, I felt like I was being raped. Even when my husband would ask me if it hurt or something, I would lie, and say, "No." Although the truth came out, and I've had the problem fixed, the emotional wounds are still healing.

I get so twisted up. Was any of this spiritual abuse? Or, was it just the spiritual aspects of life filtering through the results of emotional abuse? Some of this obviously isn't my responsibility, such as what happened when I was a small child. But what about high school? I had abstract reasoning by then, am I responsibile for the woulds I caused myself by attending a church with superficial peers and legalistic and somewhat blinded adults? What about college, with Weigh-Down and the early months of marriage, when I LIED to my husband and allowed him to HARM me during intimacy?

What is my part in this? What isn't? Why? How do I figure out truth here?

Thanks.
~m

[Jerry]

Dear ~M,,,,
I think your abuse is deep and profound....To ignore and isolate a child ,,,,,is abuse big time.When small children reside in a home the home should have an atmosphere resounding with laughter and deep rolling giggles of joy emanating from "Every" child with not one left out......A church should be full of people at peace with others,the world,and themselves,ready for any difficulty that comes their way......A church should be a place of forgiveness and reconciliation,,,,,not a "Hall of Justice" .....I also sense from your post that you have your answers already,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,I know sweetie,the truth is hard to accept :( It's OK,,,healing started when you clicked submit ;)
Love Jerry

P.S. Re.your post,,,,,,,,,,John11 vs 35

[Willow]

Heya ~m

I also did not find inclusion in the church or the school of my childhood. Both were bad... but church should have been a place of refuge for us... not further rejection. Why is it that church can be the most abusive place for someone who doesn't, can't, won't, fit the mold. Oh... I tried and tried to cram myself into their expectations and their formulas for existing. But like you... I wasn't "superior" like them and I just couldn't be. The whole structure... along with your parents' neglect and abandonment of you... yes... it was abandonment... is a formula for trauma. I am so incredibly sorry you were traumatized by those people. To this day, I just don't understand how the church can be so cruel while the bottom dregs of the world can be so accepting and compassionate. Then again... who did Jesus hang out with??

I was wondering if you saw the devotion for today? I found it helpful and it kind of matches the topic. Especially this sentence:

"God does not seem to be at home among the well-nourished, the resourced, the un-needy. In a reversal of all of our expectations, God comes to the needy and limited with invitations to participate in the Kingdom."

http://www.christianrecovery.com/nacr/cgi/dailymed.cgi

[FoxInSox]

Jerry and Willow,

Thank you for your responses.

What I find confusing is that it seemed to KEEP HAPPENING. Even in places that were MY CHOICE.

I had no control over my who my parents were, what their own wounds were, and how they chose to deal with that. I didn't have any control over the way they presented our faith to me, or how tyrannical my dad was, or how scary they made God seem.

As a child, I envisioned God as my dad -- authoritarian, placing heaps of inappropriate responsibility on me, expecting me to figure out his selfish capricious desires and needs, and the most powerful thing in my universe. I didn't really have control over that, either.

I didn't have any power - NONE, even when I tried - over where I went to school from grade 2-6. UGH.

Both home and this school environment were emotionally abusive. I hate that truth, but it IS truth.

But...in high school, my parents weren't going to church. They would take me where I wanted to go until I drove myself. I CHOSE to go to the youth group I described.

That environment took all the fear I had of my God-as-my-dad and the sad social environment of parochial school and blended it for a special form of hell. And I CHOSE that. A couple of the youth leaders were very kind to me, but in general, the environment was legalistic and lonely. And I stayed. I chose to be there. I showed up several times a week and said, "Please, add to the mind-**** that is my life so far."

And, a childhood friend, who had attended this church for her entire life, but wasn't there for most of these experiences because she left for college early, when we were juniors, doesn't recall it being like this at all. She beleives me, but her experience is so very different.

So I wonder...was the environment really like that? Or did it just SEEM that way as it filtered through the crazy half-truths I'd already learned?

The same goes for college experiences. By then, I was an adult. No one MADE me read Weigh-Down. What I took from Weigh-Down was definitely a twisting of the authors words, although she certainly hints at it.

And, I KNEW, felt unsettled with what went on with my charasmatic friends, yet I followed along like a blind sheep, parrotting the words I knew even THEN to be untruths.

And...during all this...for the most part, it wasn't really a leader or preacher standing up and TELLING me all this. It was the overt stuff I picked up from the environemnt and my peers. What is THAT about?!?!

[Reg]

Jerry and Willow,

Thank you for your responses.

What I find confusing is that it seemed to KEEP HAPPENING. Even in places that were MY CHOICE.

I had no control over my who my parents were, what their own wounds were, and how they chose to deal with that. I didn't have any control over the way they presented our faith to me, or how tyrannical my dad was, or how scary they made God seem.

As a child, I envisioned God as my dad -- authoritarian, placing heaps of inappropriate responsibility on me, expecting me to figure out his selfish capricious desires and needs, and the most powerful thing in my universe. I didn't really have control over that, either.

snip

That environment took all the fear I had of my God-as-my-dad and the sad social environment of parochial school and blended it for a special form of hell.

snip

And...during all this...for the most part, it wasn't really a leader or preacher standing up and TELLING me all this. It was the overt stuff I picked up from the environemnt and my peers. What is THAT about?!?!
Hi FoxInSox,

A BIG welcome. Like a lot of us, it’s the old tapes that keep playing. It takes time to quiet them in
our heads.

This prevous thread may help explain how this affects us in later life. It sure did to me.

Father Images In Cults
http://www.christianrecovery.com/vb/showthread.php?t=7546&page=2

[Willow]

Hi ~m,

I just googled the term "trauma bond" and thought it might help you to do the same. There's lots of reading out there that might help you understand why you are drawn to abuse over and over again. Let me know if it helps. I don't have time to research the links and see which one appears to be most applicable. I just know when I was in therapy my counselor threw that term out there and it really made sense to me and helped me understand why I seem to be drawn to abusive environments and people which are very similar to the environments which initially traumatized me.

[Willow]

Doh... I couldn't stop myself! I had to read a few of those results! Here's one I read the first paragraph and it mimicked what you were writing about nearly to a "T".

http://home.mchsi.com/~ftio/mc-trauma-bonding.htm

[Willow]

And another one...

http://www.forgetaboutdiets.com/trauma/askbrendafiance.htm

OK... I really really really need to stop now... LOL :D

[FoxInSox]

Thanks Willow.

What you call "trauma bonds," my sister calls "soul ties." Thank you for the links. Because of the connection between "soul ties" and "trauma bonds," I'm going to step back from those for a bit.

Honestly, I understand WHY.

I guess...what I'm really asking...if I CHOSE some of those environments, did I do it to myself? Is it still spiritual abuse? What about stuff that got all twisted up, like Weigh-Down? While I have heard that Shamblin's own church went much the way of me with the practices, that was all between the book and my head. [Getting thin was just another attempt to win the love of my parents (which I am realizing is impossible) and God (which I already had, it seems).] What about allowing painful sex? That most certainly stemmed from beleiving wrong stuff about "my role as a wife" which I learned at church, but I DID all the choosing of that all on my own, all in my head...

[Willow]

hi ~m

I'm certainly no expert... just a survivor like you. I think there are some questions no one but you can answer... and sometimes the answers aren't obvious. I have learned that at the point of my trauma my inner child was frozen and emotional/social/sexual development stunted. I've had to try to grow that part up. It's slow work, but doesn't take as long as growing up physically did since I have an adult mind that can absorb and apply the information I learn more quickly than a child can. Did you happen to see the article at the NACR home page about childhood trauma? I found it helpful.

http://www.nacronline.com/

[Hope 98]

I guess...what I'm really asking...if I CHOSE some of those environments, did I do it to myself? Is it still spiritual abuse?


I'm not qualified to say this with authority - but I believe it anyway.

You DID NOT do it to yourself. And it is STILL spiritual abuse.

While you made choices, you were trained to make those kinds of choices. It's part of our human condition to try to repeat our mistakes until we make the results different. Eventually, hopefully, we learn that we need to make changes to get different results. We need to make DIFFERENT choices.

It is honestly a long hard process, for most of us. And I say "most" only because I'm allowing for the possibility that I don't know everyone in the whole world.

"It's not what you don't know that worries me so, it's what you KNOW that's just not SO!" That's somebody's quote :)

in my own words, the hard part of learning something new is usually UNLEARNING what you were taught before.

You've found a good place to sort it out. Welcome.

[FreeinJesus]

...I guess...what I'm really asking...if I CHOSE some of those environments, did I do it to myself? Is it still spiritual abuse? What about stuff that got all twisted up, like Weigh-Down? While I have heard that Shamblin's own church went much the way of me with the practices, that was all between the book and my head. [Getting thin was just another attempt to win the love of my parents (which I am realizing is impossible) and God (which I already had, it seems).] What about allowing painful sex? That most certainly stemmed from beleiving wrong stuff about "my role as a wife" which I learned at church, but I DID all the choosing of that all on my own, all in my head...

Dear FoxInSox, WELCOME to the forum! Sounds like you have been through a lot! I don't have much time right now, but I wanted to welcome you & also mention that I have not heard good things about "Shamblin". I think her name is listed on the F.A.C.T. Net & another cult research group as someone whose teachings are well, 'not sound', that's being nice because I don't really know too much about her.

I'll just mention that we are shaped by our circumstances & people can & do influence us in our life. Sometimes our choices aren't really our own by what we have been spoon fed to believe is the truth......that's just my opinion.
God bless & guide you!!!
FreeinJesus

[FoxInSox]

Hope and Free,

Thank you for your encouragment and support.

It's just weird...in parochial school, the teacher's weren't going around teaching what i learned...in college, there weren't ministers or leaders going around teaching the crazy things i learned...in high school, yeah, there were. a few of the things were explicitly taught by the youth leader or his wife, but the worst of it was implicit by the de facto leader of our class, a full out mean girl in the name of jesus (think Saved! and mandi moore).

outside of her, it was all just...overt, implicit, weird, intangible...no one person to hold responsible, jsut random repeated weirdness and halftruths...

[FreeinJesus]

Dear FoxInSox,

I'm NO expert except that I have experienced Spiritual Abuse, so the only thing I have to go by is my experiences & what I have learned through them.

One of the best books I have read on SA is Twisted Scriptures by Mary Alice Chrnalogar, I think because she described the mind game exactly as we/I (meaning my husband & I) experienced it, though your experience may have been quite different.

In reading her book it made more sense when I substituted words, but the application was the same
'discipleship groups' = 'abusive organization' = 'abusive church' basically all the same thing.
'discipler' = 'leader' = 'pastor'
'disciple' = 'new convert' = 'trusting naive christian'

I think these words in her book could be interchanged, just my opinion. Because my abusive 'pastor' was not called a 'discipler' I just substituted pastor & it fit what happened to me almost to a 'T'! The same with abusive 'church', my SA church was not really called a 'discipleship', but again, the application of what she was saying still fit.

It could help if you got some good counseling to sort through your issues. Maybe you could also find some good books or websites as well.
Gotta finish cooking New Years Dinner!
oh, btw, Happy New Year 2008!
FIJ

[hornblower]

Hi foxinsox...I like that name.
Isnt everything in every disfunctional family really spiritual abuse when the end result is you arent seeing God as Love?
I believe these are satans tactics in this world for destroying us. He comes as an angel of light......via church......via supposedly, supposed to be loving, caring, Dad or Mom or whoever.

That might be way too simplistic for some people, thats ok, I still really do see this happening in every aspect of my life and frankly I am tired of not calling a spade and spade.

This world is full of lies and liars. God is good and God is love its as clear as the bible says it is its right there written for us to read and choose to believe.

Nope you may not have had a choice in a lot of ways the younger you are but once you hear the truth and you decide to believe it then you can choose to work on it.
I remember when I came to this knowledge with my sexual abuse and forgiveness and just pure dee getting on with living a normal life. yes it affects me. It may affect me in every situation untill I die........but it doesnt have to destroy me.....and that is what the enemy of ME wants to do....destroy me.
A lot of christians take satan out of the scenario.
But let me put it to you about evil in this world plainly, unfortunately its not going to go away.

I saw and experienced all of this clique stuff happening to my daughter in our church and in the church school. Its wrong I knew it was wrong before I happened upon it you know why I knew it was so off the wall? Because i experienced the same thing in the real world of high school and middle school and elementery school at the hands of people that the name of God was never mentioned at all.
We therefore can not call that type of behavior SA can we?
Still though it just about killed me and Im not kidding it almost killed not just me but other young girls too. This emotional abuse is serious stuff.

Ive learned these truths in this journey of my life.

Church is just people. The same people that abused me in the worlds system will contuinue to abuse me in the churches systems watch out, beware, everywhere people ARE SINNERS!

I am a sinner too........I can be deceived........i can not follow the right ways or do the right things for myself or others.

satan and his cronies hate my guts.......why......they just hate thats why.....they dont need a reason. People that listen to these spiritual whatever they are will do the same things they do and that is to hate.

People that love are like God....they are good and they do good things for me and to me, maybe not what I want.......like I want a million dollars that would seem like love to me but heres the rub......it isnt love.
Love always is encouraging and it always helps me see things in the truth and light instead of more false hopes.

Bad things dont have to keep on happening to me as I grow closer to taking good care of myself because why? Because God is my real Father and He loves me and wants the best things for me. My earthly Father and Mother they loved me in their own way but they are not God they cannot possibly be perfect in any way its best to get on with the bigger kinder job of forgiving them.
Its not what I want to do and I may not be able to do that just yet, thats ok because Jesus took care of that for me by forgiving them for me instead. All sin was forgiven at the cross, every single one of them but its up to the individual if he or she can accept it and go on with it and grow.

I choose to keep growing not destroying myself.
Yes so some things can be my fault either by past tapes programed into me or by just plain not knowing what to do instead of the way Ive always done things.
So Im not always so smart after all Im a sheep not a wizard.......I dont know why I am the way I am but God loves me this way so Ill choose to go with it. If God loves me the least I can do for God is to start by finally loving myself and stop letting people treat me like crap.
I can choose to talk straight from now on and ask questions and not be afraid any more...... like 'why are you saying that to me?' when people say mean things or by choosing to just hang around certain people that treat me bad.

Its up to me and with Gods help and others that are kind and good hearted I will make it.
I dont have to be on top of the heap or on the bottom either.
I can simply be me!

[FreeinJesus]

Isnt everything in every disfunctional family really spiritual abuse when the end result is you arent seeing God as Love?
I believe these are satans tactics in this world for destroying us. He comes as an angel of light......via church......via supposedly, supposed to be loving, caring, Dad or Mom or whoever....

...This world is full of lies and liars.

... It may affect me in every situation untill I die........but it doesnt have to destroy me.....and that is what the enemy of ME wants to do....destroy me....

... it just about killed me and Im not kidding it almost killed not just me but other young girls too. This emotional abuse is serious stuff.
Ive learned these truths in this journey of my life.

Church is just people. The same people that abused me in the worlds system will contuinue to abuse me in the churches systems watch out, beware, everywhere people ARE SINNERS!

satan and his cronies hate my guts.......why......they just hate thats why.....they dont need a reason. People that listen to these spiritual whatever they are will do the same things they do and that is to hate.

People that love are like God....they are good and they do good things for me and to me,...


...Because God is my real Father and He loves me and wants the best things for me. My earthly Father and Mother they loved me in their own way but they are not God they cannot possibly be perfect in any way its best to get on with the bigger kinder job of forgiving them.
... All sin was forgiven at the cross, every single one of them but its up to the individual if he or she can accept it and go on with it and grow.

I choose to keep growing not destroying myself.
.... If God loves me the least I can do for God is to start by finally loving myself and stop letting people treat me like crap.
I can choose to talk straight from now on and ask questions and not be afraid any more....

...I can simply be me!

This is really good stuff here! This spoke to me Hornblower, THANKS!!!

[Elisabeth]

Foxinsox,

I think the first thing I would say is quit saying you did it to yourself. I myself experienced extreme spiritual abuse, when I was 23, at a church I myself chose.

You wanted to go to church because you wanted to get close to God, and that was the way you knew how. You didn't know enough to know how to pick a healthy church. You had enough twisted teachings by the time you got to the weigh down workshop, and by the time you got married, that both those events caused more problems. See, from what I've seen and experienced, spiritual abuse is a snowball rolling downhill; you get some stuff taught wrong, you go to places and read books which reinforces that and also teaches you more stuff wrong, and, after awhile, you also develop a 'filter' where you 'hear' the wrong teachings you received prior in a place where those teachings are not, in fact, being taught. That's what comes from the twisting of scripture; the people who taught you wrong use the words of scripture but attach a meaning that's not there, and it's hard to see the true meanings. And I've gone through it all, believe me.

So it's hard to stop the snowball from rolling. But it's not impossible. Groups like this help; counseling helps; one thing that has helped me is a good Christian friend I can say anything to no matter how nutty, and she doesn't call me crazy. :) And their is a light at the end of the tunnel, I know, I see it now, but it is a journey to get there. And probably the hardest thing I had to do was throw out all my preconceived notions of Christianity, and to a large extent throw out my pride too, and admit I didn't really know anything about God and Christ, and the church, and, really, start over. BTW, I'm a Baptist with some Charismatic background, too. And you know how us Baptists really like the fact we know the Bible! So I think you can appreciate how difficult it was for me to admit to my lack of knowledge. But I realized something; even though I knew scripture, I had a lot of twisted teachings attached to a lot of scriptures. And admitting that, and admitting my lack of knowledge turned out to be very freeing. :D