step 3 bites... I can't get past it...

[Willow]

Well... I did my homework that was given to me by my AA sponsor for steps 1, 2 and 3. It seemed we got through them and she gave me the homework for Step 4, 5, & 6 and we were supposed to spend hours on Jan. 1 doing that part of the program. Then the other day she invited me overe to her house on Jan. 1 for a meal with she and her family... I mentioned that I thought we were going to be together on that day anyway to do the 4th step work... and she had completely forgotten. Not only that... she pretty much told me I had to get through step 3 more successfully before we could tackle step 4. Now... don't get me wrong... I can slow down on the steps and all... but the wording on Step 3 is this: " Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him." I have a problem with this. I don't have a problem believing there is a God and that he's in control of the universe... but I have a distince repulsion toward "SUBMISSION" to god or the "GROUP WISDOM" of AA. Those are big triggers for me and I think I might not be able to continue the program because of them. She gave me some homework to do which involves reading passages of the big book and the 12 and 12 book over and over... in her words "a bunch of times". This to me is the same as indoctrination or brainwashing. I told her I had already read those passages several times trying to understand them... and she said... do it again. So... I'm really getting stuck and the part of the meeting where they talk about those who cannot do the program:

"Rarely have we seen a person fail who has thoroughly followed our path. Those who do not recover are people who cannot or will not completely give themselves to this simple program, usually men and women who are constitutionally incapable of being honest with themselves. There are such unfortunates. They are not at fault; they seem to have been born that way. There are naturally incapable of grasping and developing a manner of living which demands rigorous honesty. Their chances are less than average. There are those, too, who suffer from grave emotional and mental disorders, but many of them do recover if they have the capacity to be honest."

How's that for a pill to swallow? I guess I'm one of those "unfortunates". Makes me feel more like an imbecile than anything else.

I don't think this is a cult... but it's sure tapping into all my triggers. I knew it would, but I thought I could do it anyway. I'm getting too scared to continue though. I read something on a site called step study that mentioned that some folks approach AA more from a social or a psychological stance and lessen the importance of the steps. I think that is more like me than someone unwilling or unable to be honest... that just makes me feel bad when I think about that. No one said that to me... but that's just the implication that is read before every meeting.

[mary]

Well... I did my homework that was given to me by my AA sponsor for steps 1, 2 and 3. It seemed we got through them and she gave me the homework for Step 4, 5, & 6 and we were supposed to spend hours on Jan. 1 doing that part of the program. Then the other day she invited me overe to her house on Jan. 1 for a meal with she and her family... I mentioned that I thought we were going to be together on that day anyway to do the 4th step work... and she had completely forgotten. Not only that... she pretty much told me I had to get through step 3 more successfully before we could tackle step 4. Now... don't get me wrong... I can slow down on the steps and all... but the wording on Step 3 is this: " Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him." I have a problem with this. I don't have a problem believing there is a God and that he's in control of the universe... but I have a distince repulsion toward "SUBMISSION" to god or the "GROUP WISDOM" of AA. Those are big triggers for me and I think I might not be able to continue the program because of them. She gave me some homework to do which involves reading passages of the big book and the 12 and 12 book over and over... in her words "a bunch of times". This to me is the same as indoctrination or brainwashing. I told her I had already read those passages several times trying to understand them... and she said... do it again. So... I'm really getting stuck and the part of the meeting where they talk about those who cannot do the program:

"Rarely have we seen a person fail who has thoroughly followed our path. Those who do not recover are people who cannot or will not completely give themselves to this simple program, usually men and women who are constitutionally incapable of being honest with themselves. There are such unfortunates. They are not at fault; they seem to have been born that way. There are naturally incapable of grasping and developing a manner of living which demands rigorous honesty. Their chances are less than average. There are those, too, who suffer from grave emotional and mental disorders, but many of them do recover if they have the capacity to be honest."

How's that for a pill to swallow? I guess I'm one of those "unfortunates". Makes me feel more like an imbecile than anything else.

I don't think this is a cult... but it's sure tapping into all my triggers. I knew it would, but I thought I could do it anyway. I'm getting too scared to continue though. I read something on a site called step study that mentioned that some folks approach AA more from a social or a psychological stance and lessen the importance of the steps. I think that is more like me than someone unwilling or unable to be honest... that just makes me feel bad when I think about that. No one said that to me... but that's just the implication that is read before every meeting.

Dearest Amy,

My reaction to what you were told: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: !!!

You are no imbecile and you are no oddball. You're struggling, sure, but so are we all.

Where are kindness and humility and encouragement despite (seeming) obstacles in this?!

I pray for those things to come your way in incredible abundance - and soon!

mary

[Willow]

Thanks for the affirmation mary. I"m beginning to think this program may be for a different set of struggles than I'm having. I wanted to give it a try just coz the 12 steps have always been a trigger for me... even on this forum. But... I'm sincerely struggling with taking the medicine they offer. I do have an addictive type of personality... obsessive mostly... but I'm just not sure this is what I need... there's other stuff that bugs me, but I really don't want to go in depth about it just yet.

[Reg]

Thanks for the affirmation mary. I"m beginning to think this program may be for a different set of struggles than I'm having. I wanted to give it a try just coz the 12 steps have always been a trigger for me... even on this forum. But... I'm sincerely struggling with taking the medicine they offer. I do have an addictive type of personality... obsessive mostly... but I'm just not sure this is what I need... there's other stuff that bugs me, but I really don't want to go in depth about it just yet.
Amy, you are so right.

Here’s a quote from the thread below. I also experienced problems with the 12 Steps. I understand some of the triggers you feel.

“We cannot slide into a dangerous one-size-fits-all mode that is sure to be wrong for many people.
If we remember the overall goals are to alleviate people's suffering, we can put our rigid egos
aside and ask, "What works? What doesn't work?" Are there ways support groups could be more
effective, possibly for different groups of people such as those who have been spiritually abused?
Because of my two years in Celebrate Recovery as the Assimilator Coach, CR is NOT the place
for the spiritually abused. A program embracing the 16 Steps that is more flexible and doesn't
insist on rigid conformity is what is needed to help them move past the pain and trauma they
suffered from the last group they left. Only such a program can give them the support they need
to help them begin to "Trust" again. This is one of their greatest needs, to have their "trust
muscle" healed at the deepest level of their being. They need an Authentic, caring place based on
LOVE! Love creates TRUST!”

As I also said, “We need to find ways to create SAFETY in these 16 Step recovery
(uncover/discover) groups so there are fewer instances of CONTROL, ALIENATION &
EXPLOITATION. All of these are areas the spiritually abused understand completely. We need to
instill in people a sense of internal power that they lack in their "POWERLESSNESS". It is this
attitude of ”Powerlessness” that fosters a new dependency on their recovery groups. Recovery
grounded on fear does not lead to the development of a healthy aware ego (self-image).”

“We will remain as children tied to a 12 Step program because we have not internalized our own
belief systems and have given this power to another person or program. We need to be mature
people who live by their own internal morals and authority.”........

“To lock them into a similar 12 Step program will present too many triggers that will make them
withdraw. While initially it may seem to help them, they will eventually leave because they
realize they have to stuff too much to stay connected to the group at the cost of their human
development. By staying locked in a rigid box/set of rules and authority like the controlling
group/church/cult they left, they will continue to stuff and not advance in their healing.
Eventually they will leave when it becomes too unbearable.”

Start reading here.... ”In reading the book "Many Roads - One Journey"....” It is in two parts.


16 Steps vs 12 Steps
http://www.christianrecovery.com/vb/showthread.php?t=5998&highlight=steps

16 Steps - Modified with scriptures
http://www.christianrecovery.com/vb/showthread.php?t=7160&highlight=steps

[ex-shep]

The way I got around Steps 3 and 11 was to realize that it was not God's will for me to drink, be in addictive relationships. or be in my former groups. Therefore by default, it was God's will to recover through whatever modality he cared to choose. The acronym of G.OD for Good Orderly Direction helped. For us who were spiritually abused, it can feel like a dose of cyanide. There AA literature on those who group in abusive groups. I cannot think of the citation at the moment. I believe I saw it in the little red book. I will be forward the post on Step 3 from the "SARA big book"

Take what you like and leave the rest. I can understand the rest.

There are the "Big Book Nazis" who believe Bill W said it, that settles it, and that is good enough for me. If your sponsor is triggering cult flashbacks, you can always fire her and find somebody else. I deserve to be around healthy people -- and that includes meetings.

[Reg]

Amy,

When you get the time read the Customer Reviews section. They are very helpful in understanding why The 12 Steps are not for everyone.

First Sentence in this book reads:
In 1935, when Bill Wilson, cofounder of Alcoholics Anonymous, stopped drinking alcohol, he went home to a loyal, dedicated wife, a warm home with enough food, and a circle of people who cared about him......

If that is the environment you live in and become an alcoholic, then the 12 Steps work.

One reviewer wrote:......."This book clearly explains the history of the 12 Steps, the original intentions of Bill W. (founder of AA), the ways the steps are implemented in current 12 Step programs, and, very importantly, why they don't "work" for a lot of people (contrary to the message that one gets in AA and other step groups). She also takes a look at the strengths and weaknesses of alternative recovery programs...........

If you've ever felt uncomfortable with the 12 Steps, or have not been able to work the program successfully, or have not felt comfortable attending meetings, this book will help you realize that those feelings are not indicative of "defects of character", and will present an alternative philosophy which may make more sense to you. It certainly did to me."


Many Roads One Journey: Moving Beyond the 12 Steps
http://www.amazon.com/Many-Roads-One-Journey-Moving/dp/0060965185/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1198691877&sr=1-1

[Reg]

I just remembered, I wrote a review of this book.....:)

Reviews Written by
R. Borrow "Gray Hair" (Ontario,Canada)

http://www.amazon.com/gp/cdp/member-reviews/A2QNGZF3Q2L6BN/ref=cm_cr_pr_auth_rev?ie=UTF8&sort%5Fby=MostRecentReview

[Willow]

Thanks Reg... this is most helpful.
I read your review of this book and am on my way to read the review. I think I've done both in the past... but I have reached a new set of reasons to do it again. The lure of unconditional support of the AA meetings is powerful... but the steps and the reason I am there (the things I need recovery from) are incompatible somehow.

ex-shep... I don't think this one is the sponsor's fault at all. I think the program just doesn't fit my needs. I don't want to admit that because I finally found a support group that's available around the clock for me and now I have to turn my back on it. How frustrating is that? But... it's not going to be helpful to me in the long run I don't think. Maybe I can find one of the 16 step programs here in middle tennessee... we'll see what other stones I can turn. I'm not going to stop going to the AA meetings just yet. I'd like to get my 3 month chip! LOL... no really... I am afraid I'll lose the group and individual support if I can't follow the steps. Ah well... I'm at a decision point again.

[Jerry]

Dear Amy,,,
The way I see it you have to go one of two ways.You can give their way another shot,or you can go back to "your" way.......How was "Your" way workin for ya ??????? ;)

Love Jerry

P.S. Remember,AA is for gettin sobor,,,,,,,not for finding the meaning of life :D

[Willow]

Well... It did work pretty well to quit drinking. I'm glad I went for that part of it.

[mary]

Well... It did work pretty well to quit drinking. I'm glad I went for that part of it.

Maybe I'm just making a royal display of my ignorance here (probably! - :o ), but I guess I always thought that if AA helps anyone to quit drinking, and that blessed individual is put into an "I'm sober forever!" mindset and habit, then isn't that about the extent of AA's abilities? I have a friend who's been cold sober for 20 years, not tempted to start drinking again - and she still goes to AA meetings. She's a dear friend whom I've known since the 4th grade; we're like sisters. I don't discuss the AA thing with her because I'm "not one of the group" and I accept that. But my parents were both serious, extremely destructive alcoholics and so it isn't as though I know nothing about the subject. I concede that if you haven't "been there," you lack a measure of authority... I sometimes assert that as to cancer experiences as I've had two separate diagnoses of that, and so I need to concede that unless one has struggled with alcoholism, one does lack some authority to speak about it.

Neither of my parents was interested in AA; I went to one Al-Anon meeting myself, but it was "geographically undesirable" and so I didn't go back. I did like it, though.

Amy, I do so feel a kinship with you in so many things! :) :) :) We're both obsessive - but tough - chicks... :D :eek: :p I pray for the Lord to enfold you more and more into His fellowship - for that's where you'll find what AA has thus far come up short in giving you... Not to preach, for that's not my calling; not to shove God on you where you don't want me to... Just to extend a loving hand of friendship through this cyberspace...

mary

[Willow]

Thanks mary... you are certainly a tough chick and a great example in perseverance through trials. I admire you for that.

As far as AA goes... I thought it was about more than just the alcohol... however, I was just making too much of step 3. It's not turning my life over to God or anyone else... the wording just tricked me. All it is... a desire to stop drinking and letting God help me. I can do that much... and already did. Jerry has a way of knocking some stone hard cold sense into me sometimes. Other times he's just obnoxious. NEENER jerry!

As far as fellowship goes... I may still find a place where I fit. Online places are easier to find than real life ones. AA is pretty close... but I'd hate to use it just to satisfy my need for support and not properly go through the steps. I read all of this to my sponsor on the phone last night. She doesn't really know what to do with me. The message I'm getting from her right now is... "JUST FORGET THE STEPS FOR NOW>>> OK????"

[mary]

You know what, Amy? As before, I'm no expert, but maybe you've gone as far as you can with "the steps" right now, and you need to let it gel or something. No going back, no beating up on yourself, not even a little, okay? :) :) :) Can you let "Amy be Amy" for awhile and be okay with it? And just seek out people whom you know are going to lift you up?

My whole family are "unbelievers," but let me tell you: an hour or two with my sister, my brother in Chicago (just talking to them on the phone helps), or whoever, and I'm a whole, new, happier person. :D Sometimes you just need to hang with a new crowd for awhile and get your head in a new space. Doesn't matter if they're firm believers in AA or which steps they think are helpful or if they even know what AA steps are... Maybe they can help you.

I agree: Jerry's given me a pretty substantial cyber-kick in the butt at times - and by the time it radiates up to my head, it's done a whole lotta good... :D :p :eek: ! Always grateful for it!!! :D

Take care, Amy...

mary

[Willow]

You know what, Amy? As before, I'm no expert, but maybe you've gone as far as you can with "the steps" right now, and you need to let it gel or something. No going back, no beating up on yourself, not even a little, okay? :) :) :) Can you let "Amy be Amy" for awhile and be okay with it? And just seek out people whom you know are going to lift you up?

I think that's a pretty good idea mary. I think that's what my sponsor is trying to do too... just let me rest for awhile. I'm in the middle of some significant life changes and maybe the steps stuff is just putting me over the edge.

[mary]

I think that's a pretty good idea mary. I think that's what my sponsor is trying to do too... just let me rest for awhile. I'm in the middle of some significant life changes and maybe the steps stuff is just putting me over the edge.

Yep, (((Amy!))) :) You definitely don't need any more "edge-dangling...!"

Love,

mary

[SueJean]

Willow, thank you so much for sharing. I attend Adult Children meetings for my own personal recovery from my family of origin; I attend Al-Anon meetings to help me to better understand my unrecovered mother; I attend open AA meetings to better understand my unrecovered father. I'm learning to take what I like and leave the rest. Learning...I'm emphasizing the word learning. I haven't arrived by a long shot. Triggers from my abusive family of origin as well as triggers from the cult get hit often. Counseling helps me to voice my feelings (of which I am very much struggling with) along with thoughts. I'm glad that at least you attended 12 Step meetings. That's an accomplishment, my dear. Give yourself credit. I'm still working on trusting others. Scary. I have very few phone numbers.. even after attending for over 30 months. New year coming up quickly. One of my goals for this new year is to get one name along w/ a phone number from each group that I attend... then, call. Scary even thinking about it. One day at a time. Made a decision.... that's healthy for me. As for dealing w/ the cult garbage, I have one lady I talk with as she is also recovering from cult abuse. We do what we are able to support each other, listen and learn from each other, and love each other where we're at in our recovery. She does much better in calling me, I admit. New year. Oh, I said that already. Sorry. I'm allowed to change :) Hugs a bunch.

[Willow]

New year. Oh, I said that already. Sorry. I'm allowed to change :) Hugs a bunch.

Right... RIGHT... New YEAR! And we're growing and changing machines. I only put the steps on hold for awhile. I'm not out of the game entirely. However... I'm like you... LOTS of triggers in the program!!!!

[SueJean]

Right... RIGHT... New YEAR! And we're growing and changing machines. I only put the steps on hold for awhile. I'm not out of the game entirely. However... I'm like you... LOTS of triggers in the program!!!! Hmmm, wasn't that the name of a horse? Trigger? A little humor goes a long way. hee hee.
Ohhh, those triggers! Drat them anyway. The good news is that I'm more aware of them due in part to attending the 12 Step meetings. I'll encourage you if you encourage me. Baby steps. (Bill Murray comes to mind from that movie "What About Bob?" Funny movie.)

[Willow]

Hmmm, wasn't that the name of a horse? Trigger? A little humor goes a long way. hee hee.
Ohhh, those triggers! Drat them anyway. The good news is that I'm more aware of them due in part to attending the 12 Step meetings. I'll encourage you if you encourage me. Baby steps. (Bill Murray comes to mind from that movie "What About Bob?" Funny movie.)

I love horses! Maybe triggers aren't bad things after all, eh? LOL

That movie was pretty funny. I remember seeing it in a drive in theater and laughing my butt off.

[SueJean]

I love horses! Maybe triggers aren't bad things after all, eh? LOL

That movie was pretty funny. I remember seeing it in a drive in theater and laughing my butt off.

For me, it's what to do w/the triggers to disarm them, or lessen their destructive capabilities. First, I gotta be aware of those little buggers.

It's almost "Groundhog Day" time! :D

[Willow]

I can't wait for spring!!!
I'll never picture triggers the same again. From now on when someone says trigger... I'll picture a palamino horse riding across the plain.

[SueJean]

I can't wait for spring!!!
I'll never picture triggers the same again. From now on when someone says trigger... I'll picture a palamino horse riding across the plain. Heee haw; that's the attitude :D I like that picture. I like that a lot. Thanks for sharing that pleasant thought.

[Willow]

Heee haw; that's the attitude :D I like that picture. I like that a lot. Thanks for sharing that pleasant thought.

Thanks SueJean... I think I made it through the dark tunnel and am back out in the light today. I have one more day off work and then the new year begins... full of resolutions to change and do better! :eek:

[Learning to trust]

Hey Willow...

I have been following your threads about the steps. Your sponsor is approaching the steps very differently than mine did. It almost sounds like your sponsor is playing God in some ways. She probably is not meaning to do that, yet it is what it seems like to me.

Sponsors can only give what they have, and there are times (usually) where our best falls way short of others needs. Each of our journeys are unique to some extent. Part of the importance of working with others is to continue to see God's spirit work in the lives of others in ways we can't even imagine. If we just try to duplicate our experiences in the lives of others, then what we end up getting is lot more of what we have already had ... and are desperate to get away from.

I'm not sure I'm succeeding in communicating what I am trying to say. Mostly, I hope that you will find our way ... if it means you need a new sponsor ... I hope you will get one .... If it means sticking to your guns with this sponsor and finding your way together ... then I hope that can happen.

Take care and good luck... learning to trust

[Kerrin]

LOL....sorry Willow,
I read the first part of the thread and felt hackles...say no more...

But the 'Trigger" thing, I can't say , or think that word now without thinking surfing , thanks to Amy (my Amy)....www.triggerbrothers.com.au
It's the first web site she goes to when she wakes up ...check the surf of course, at her favourite spots!:D
Love to you and so glad the light is at the end of the tunnel again..)have a look at www.swellnet.com.au sometime, it may make you feel a bit warmer and brighter...just a thought.....and as an after thought, one of the surf beaches has horse riding every day, Gunnamatta Beach (it's an aboriginal name and a beautiful beach)...it has the toughest Surf on our coast, Amy got dumped badly last week,(:(), but the horses are really pretty; I'm too scared to get on one of them too!;):D
Cheers
Kerrin;)

[Willow]

I can see the surf community has a language all it's own... a lot like the horse community... and even our former church communities. Oh... and don't forget the lingo of the AA community!

I truly appreciate the support Kerrin and L2T. There was a gentleman at the meeting last night that helped me significantly. He asked me if I would be willing to surrender to God. And I said I would if He wouldn't hurt me. So he said... what if I told you I know He won't hurt you? I said I would then be willing to surrender to God. So... that was a little trick of the mind... but it did seem to help my inner child relax a small bit.

As far as my sponsor... I may need to get a new one anyway. I have a feeling she may be too busy to deal with me or not wanting to for some reason... and this is why the delay... just a hunch.

Not to mention... the 12 steps may indeed not be the right approach for me to recovery...

[Learning to trust]

Hi again Willow ....

Your sponsor may not have time, or may not be willing ... but also (and this is the one I lean towards since I see sponsorship more as a support rather than a domineering kind of relationship) She may not have what it takes to sponsor you in a way that is helpful to you.

The twelve steps are only tools that are available and "can" help us become more honest, humble, open, available to ourselves and to others.

The twelve steps are not a religion. There is nothing "magical" within them... They just "can work" in a way that frees us from ourselves and others to connect with God ... The God of our own understanding...

To me, that doesn't mean there are 50 million different Gods out there... it just means that each of us are honest about where we are in our understanding of God and we stop trying to make it anything other than what it is. We are open to having experiences with a power greater than ourselves ... and for me, that included a power greater than everything and everybody also ... and as I have experiences with this "power" I begin to build a personal and genuine faith in something greater.

It is hard to trust this greater power ... but for me, this path ... though ssssssllllllllllllooooooooowwwwwwwww....... it is "real" and it is not based on what others try to tell me or cram down my throat.

Willow, I hope you will not give up on the twelve steps. Groups and people will always be just that ... groups and people... all trying to find their own way and stumbling along in our process.

Take it as slow as you need to take it.

My sponsor does not come from the group that I attend that i find to be most helpful to me. My sponsor is a person that trusts the process and God (the power greater than himself) to guide me. My experiences have been different in many ways from my sponsors ... yet, my experiences build my sponsors faith and my sponsors experiences build my faith. And in that way, I too am learning to respect and appreciate other people's unique experiences as valid and powerful.

thinking about you and hoping for peace, hope and serenity for your journey... learning to trust