What type of group were you in?

[Ontheroad]

I guess this would be kind of like a poll. If you are comfortable answering this, what type of chult (church cult) were/are you in? I'll go first:

Nondenominational, formerly of Maranatha Ministries

[Beautiful_Dreamer]

The Non-denominational church was fine, but the family I was involved with got most of their later-harmful ideas from TBN and the Word of Faith movement.

[Jerry]

I went to "Our Lady of Unending Pain and Self Loathing" :eek:

[Doug64]

Non-denominational law and holy day keeping group.


Doug :rolleyes:

[Siobhanne]

Mainstream denomination whose publishing company is located in Nashville Tenn. The church was Biblically sound before our pastor became involved in the church growth movement and sought to model our church after his guru's church.

Siobhanne.

[Willow]

I have had 3 different experieinces. The first was with a shepherding group started from the Jesus Movement in the 60s. I joined at the tail end of the ministy's existence in the early 80s. After that I joined another shepherding church. Non-denominational and part of the large shepherding movement in existence today. From there I joined the exact same group Siobhanne mentioned. I thought by joining a mainstream denominational ministry I would be safe.... NOT!!!!!!!!!

HUGS to Siobhanne. I am familiar with your experience.

[Siobhanne]

Bless you Willow!! Maybe I'm not completely insane after all. Thank you for understanding!!

Siobhanne

[Florence]

First: Non-denominational
Second: Main-line denomination on the fast track to being a mega-church - currently about 3,000 attenders.

[Willow]

Siobhanne, You are not insane at all! You are very wise to see the trap and damage in such a group. Like Katie said, You don't realize the damage until it's done to you... then you can see all too clearly in the rearview mirror.

[Siobhanne]

The abusive church I attend is also a mega-church, with slightly over 6000 members. Many megachurches, regardless of denomination, often employ the same style of ministry philosophy that is tied into the church growth movement. When I see the tell-tale signs that this method is being used ( and it is very deceptive) it gives me the willies. I know that somewhere, there are other people going through the same things that I'm going through and like me... they are under the impression that THEY are the problem.

Siobhanne

[Ontheroad]

I know that somewhere, there are other people going through the same things that I'm going through and like me... they are under the impression that THEY are the problem.
Siobhanne

This is unfortunately so terribly true. :( I know I wondered for years - what is wrong with me? Why can't I discern what the pastor discerns? Why do I have these nagging doubts? It's because I was told that any concerns or doubts or questions I had about anything the pastor said showed that I had a "bad heart". (verbatim quote) So for years, I thought I had a bad heart before the Lord and cried and asked the Lord what I had done to get a bad heart and how could I change it.

I bet many are in this position - told by leadership that asking questions = being rebellious or sinful or just lacking discernment. It's tragic and horribly abusive. :mad: :( :mad: :(

I'm so sorry that you experienced this as well.

[Ontheroad]

The Non-denominational church was fine, but the family I was involved with got most of their later-harmful ideas from TBN and the Word of Faith movement.

So many people have been hurt by the Word of Faith movement. A better label for it would be Word of Presumption movement, because it is pure presumption and pride to think if God as a big Santa Claus waiting to give out everything we want just because we name it and claim it. Sadly, TBN does have alot of these type of leaders.

I'm really sorry for your pain and what you went through.

[Ontheroad]

I went to "Our Lady of Unending Pain and Self Loathing" :eek:

LOL, Jerry. Sounds very similar to my church, Our Lady of Mind Games and Big Confusion.

[Ontheroad]

Non-denominational law and holy day keeping group.


Doug :rolleyes:

Doug, it's amazing how the number of people hurt in nondenominational groups/churches. I wonder if it is because they lack accountability and structure? Also, it seems like many nondenominational types are prone to the flakier side of Christianity - always looking for the next manifestation, movement, and hype instead of getting rooted in the Word, which is less emotional. What do you think?

[Ontheroad]

I have had 3 different experieinces. The first was with a shepherding group started from the Jesus Movement in the 60s. I joined at the tail end of the ministy's existence in the early 80s. After that I joined another shepherding church. Non-denominational and part of the large shepherding movement in existence today. From there I joined the exact same group Siobhanne mentioned. I thought by joining a mainstream denominational ministry I would be safe.... NOT!!!!!!!!!

HUGS to Siobhanne. I am familiar with your experience.

I am now in a "mainline" denominational church. I really, really hope that it will stay as safe as it seems now. I'm definitely keeping a watchful eye, though.

[Ontheroad]

First: Non-denominational
Second: Main-line denomination on the fast track to being a mega-church - currently about 3,000 attenders.

Florence, can you explain about it being on the fast track? I'd be interested in hearing their method of fast growth.

[ex-shep]

I was in the shepherding/discipleship movement at the state university I attended 1980-83. It was not until after I graduated did all the connections became known. At the same time a close friend was abruptly recruited into what was then a fundalmentalist shepherding group, now considered an aberrant controlling Christian group.

I was briefly in a Oneness church in New England, but was able to escape. I started attending services at a pentecostal Bible school with associations with the Latter Rain movement and the christian renewal movement. In 1984, after I was turned down for admission to the Bible school, I was invited to join what simply known as the "name of midwestern city" church. I was getting evasive answers on the name of the church. Reluctantly I was left with no choice but to contact a friend and a cult researcher in Chicago. After a few phone calls, it was brought to my attention that "Tammy" was in a shepherding group.

I went back out to the midwest to get help for her. What ended up happening was that I realized what I was involved and came to a realization of the harm caused. Now armed with the names of shepherding leaders and the concepts of mind control, I walked out of the bible school two months later in November 11, 1984.

[Florence]

Florence, can you explain about it being on the fast track? I'd be interested in hearing their method of fast growth.

Their method of fast growth . . .

1) Senior pastor befriends the "rich and famous" of the community - and when I say "rich and famous," I mean REALLY rich. This is a community of about 10,000 in a rural area of the mid-west with no major metropolitan cities in the entire state, but it has the highest per capita millionaires in the country - and the majority of them were wined and dined from the minute the senior pastor came here. I believe they call this "sheep stealing" since a majority of them attended other churches before he wooed them. Essentially, that provides them with the $$$ for any and every project. They have built a $10,000,000 state of the art facility that is completely paid for, and he has now raised the funds to build a $6,000,000 additional building that will house a gymnasium, auditorium, youth facility, offices, etc.

2) Emphasis on three major areas:

A) Children/youth and their parents. The children's ministry was developed following the model of Willow Creek and soon grew to where there are over 80 children attending per grade/age level. It is an excellent program with 7 full-time and several part-time staffers and over 150 adult volunteers. The parents of these children and youth are drawn to the very professional contemporary worship music, drama, video clips, and down-to-earth preaching. Classes are offered in Spiritual Gifts, marriage enrichment, Encountering God, etc. There is also a program that one can go through that ultimately leads to a seminary degree. The church also houses a full-service coffee bar and a Christian book store.

B) Grace. Grace is preached at every turn. The church is maligned in the community for welcoming those who are hurting - those who are divorced, drug addicted, homosexual, abusers, porn addicted, on parole, etc. They are not at all concerned with having their fish cleaned before they catch them. Their arms are open to embrace and love everyone.

C) Lending a helping hand. Need a car? Tthe church will give you one. Need money for rent? Not a problem. Need your gutters cleaned? We'll be there.

So, what makes such a Disney Land church abusive? I can only speak from my own experience.

A few years ago, they hired a full-time music minister - against the advice of the search committee who had been given the task of hiring someone. I was fairly new to the church and he immediately began asking me to "help out." I was on the platform with him every Sunday except 5 over the following 8 months. In that time I was able to get to know him very well - enough to realize that he did everything he could to get other people (mostly me) to do his job for him - yet he took all the credit. He also became very vocal about how he viewed his job - he told me he "hated" the choir and the only reason he participated in it before he was hired was because the senior pastor had told him it would help him get the job. He didn't trust the personnel committee and bad-mouthed them constantly. He refused to allow the two women who had been handling the music ministry part-time before he was hired (they were too much of a threat). The first time I filled in for him because he was going on vacation, he told me, "If you look good, I look good, and if you look bad, I look even better."

He would ask me to spend hours burning the midnight oil to arrange music and rehearse with people, and then he would pull it from the service at the last minute. He would have a "run-through" with the worship team in which they would feel completely unprepared and ask to extend the rehearsal, but he would refuse - he told me privately that it didn't matter if the worship team did a good job or not - if they sounded lousy, he would sound great. His goal was to always make himself look good by making everyone around him look inadequate.

After 8 months, I took my concerns to the senior pastor who directed me to the head of the board. That person listened to my concerns and promised to set up a meeting with the personnel committee. Another two months went by with no word. Then came a Sunday in which I had prepared everything for the service only to find out 30 minutes before that everything had been switched around. This wouldn't normally be a problem for me, but I was working with a brand new worship team who was very nervous and suddenly everything that they had worked so hard to prepare had been completely changed. We made it through the service fine, and then I told the powers that be that I would no longer be working (volunteering) with this guy. In the process, I found out that the senior pastor was the one who had changed the service around nearly a week earlier and he had told the music guy because the senior pastor had no idea that I was the one who was putting that entire service together outside of the sermon, of course. The music guy set me up.

Any way, to make a long story even longer, since I decided I wouldn't work with this guy, I was labeled the "bad person." You see, you are supposed to support the staff no matter what. I have been ostracized by the rest of the staff and other people in key positions. I did lead the worship for the women's ministry for a few years, but the pastor had a staff person constantly questioning the other ladies on the team concerning my behavior. That caused a couple of them who were power-hungry to constantly be "reporting" me. All the while, the pastor kept pretending that he and I were fast friends.

I stepped out of the women's ministry after reading the book "Boundaries" and "The Purpose Driven Life" and a few months later, with the blessing of my pastor, I left my job at a Bible college to become the minister of music at another local church. Last spring, the music guy left my home church and in the fall, they advertised a position that I applied for. I was then told that I don't "measure up" to be on the staff there, that if I want to pursue a staff position, I would need to quit my job, attend classes at the church, and MAYBE I would some day be allowed to participate on a worship team. Then, after some time of more measuring up, I MIGHT get the opportunity to lead a worship team, and, if I really measured up, sometime in the far distant future, I might be fit to have a staff position - though doubtful.

I was finally forced to admit that, while not as blatantly abusive as my previous church, this was definitely a place that was headed in that direction. Over the past couple of years, the government of the church has changed from a member-controlled system to a staff-driven system, complete with the senior pastor being named CEO. The only other ordained pastor left when this change was proposed and they have decided not to hire any other ordained ministers. Every one on the staff is a "lay" person and has essentially no formal training in their area - though there are three staff members who are apparently going through the program that will ultimately give them a seminary degree. The senior pastor holds all the cards and everything that happens is because he ordains it.

The most recent "teaching" has been on being baptized by the Holy Spirit. This is a reformed denomination, not charismatic at all, and, while I have no problem with the baptism of the Holy Spirit (I have the t-shirt on that one) I am concerned that this could lead to further abuses.

Well, this is an awfully long answer to your question. I hope it helps more than it confuses.

Florence

[fender]

Sorry this is so long but I have to get it off my chest.

Started out 10 years ago in the renewal/Vineyard movement. A small church that had some goods points (helping the poor, street evangelism, youth ministry for those who society had labeled as write-offs, etc.). Trouble was, the pastor and staff were not trained adequately and did not have a heart for helping the druggies and mentally ill, which was what most of the church was due to street ministry emphasis. The teaching was very shallow, and the ministry focused mainly on "soaking" and "manifesting".

The pastor quit after a couple of years and his replacement was a nightmare. She was the most inconsiderate, dishonest, backstabbing control freak I have ever met. But she had a lot of charisma and that's what kept in the ministry until she finally left last year.

I was on the worship team for a few years until her son learned how to play guitar and sing and I was thrown off after a bunch of cooked up allegations of giving drugs to the teens. Eventually the whole worship team and leadership was "dismissed" for various concocted reasons until it consisted of her immediate family, in-laws, and close friends. She was seen stealing several times from the collection plate, and once stole a large donation from an international sponsor. The money was supposed to go to putting a down-payment to buy the building we were renting. We never heard anything about the money until the sponsor came for a visit to see how we were doing. I don't know how she beat the legal and Revenue Canada investigation but she pulled it off somehow and then blew town.

I and others tried many times to report her to the head office but they wouldn't do anything about her. After dozens of letters from people who had left over the years they finally sent someone to investigate the allegations - his conclusions: - "we are just a bunch of whiners who couldn't get their own way". There are literally hundreds who have been stung by this woman and the Vineyard in this town, most of whom have been turned completely off of church and vowing never to walk through church doors again.

Since I left 4 years ago I've tried to get into several mainline denominational churches, but I find a lot of the same stuff going on, although not as blatant or severe. I can't get into the big plastic Sunday production and the looking good crap. I've tried to fit in but they can't relate to me. I've had quite a rough past (years of heavy drugs, crime and violence) and I carry the mental, emotional and physical scars. I can't seem to relate to people who have no idea where I'm coming from and why I think and talk the way I do. And I can't understand where they're coming from having been born and raised in the church and sheltered from it all. I've led several people to the Lord from the "wild side" and they usually end up leaving a few weeks after because of the hypocrisy and lack of friendship.

I've been a musician for 30 years. My last gig was at an Aglican church. I was on the worship team for 3 years and we put out a CD and were playing out a lot. All of a sudden they were cool towards me. Then I found out they were talking behind my back, saying I was too "country" (which is BS, I'm a rocker), too pushy, too worried about professionalism, and whole pile of other crap. When I gently confronted the leader and asked him to open up to me he just clammed up and wouldn't say anything. Then I heard that they were going around saying I quit the band. Nice folks. I knew one of them for 10 years. That was 6 months ago and they have never contacted me since.

My cry right now is to shake the abuse off, get on with my life and make some new friends, but I'm having a hard time meeting brothers and sisters who can relate to me. They usually blow me off after a few weeks or months. I don't know, maybe I'm an a__hole or something. But you know, I never had any trouble making and keeping friends before I came to the Lord. I have (or should I say had) a passion for life and Christ, to get out there and make a difference and be salt and light, but I CAN'T DO IT ALONE!

These last 3 years have been the most lonely and miserable time of life. I know hundreds of Christian brothers and sisters, and I haven't had one call or visit in the last 6 months. This holiday season finds me lower than I've ever been before in my life. And i've been very low in my past life with drug addiction and depression. But nothing like this.

I can't see a whole lot of hope. I used to almost live for music but I haven't picked up my guitar for 6 months. I've thought about giving up all together and back into the drug scene where the people seem to be more friendly and real, but I know I can't knowing what I know now about the Lord. Seems like there is no light at the end of the tunnel for me. Not in this life anyway.

I need your prayers to get through this.

Thanks and God Bless

Mike

[Ontheroad]

Mike,

I'm so very sorry for your pain and for how you were mistreated. I think it truly does hurt worse when a fellow Christian mistreats us than when a non-Christian does, because we expect that a Christian will imitate Christ-like behavior, or at least try to do so. (Not that non-Christian's don't do that; I've seen plenty of non-Christians who act more like Christians than most Christians do.) It is so sad how the Church treats itself. It must truly break the Lord's heart to see His children mistreat each other and misrepresent Him to non-Christians.

I could identify a little with what you went through with false allegations being made about you. Someone who at one time I considered my closest friend made up some awful, awful outright lies over a long period of time about me, which my pastor readily believed and which he would no listen to me about when I tried to refute them. When I found out, I felt foolish and totally rejected and betrayed that this person would appear kind when in my prescence, all while backstabbing me in a very cruel way at the same time. And to have my pastor believe the lies was another big blow.

My father was a denominational minister, but had alot of unresolved hangups from childhood, and consequently was very emotionally abusive and unstable. Then my former pastor (the one above) turned out to be a lying and very abusive man. I've really had to struggle with wondering if there really are any genuinely Christian Chrisitans out there, especially leaders.

That all being said, I have also known plenty of Christians who have treated me kindly and been true friends, and I do know personally a couple of pastors who are good guys. My current pastor seems to be one, though I am keeping a watchful eye. So there are sincerely good Christians out there. I'm just so sorry that so many you have come accross have betrayed or mistreated or neglected you. That is sooo not God's heart for you.

Please hang in there and don't give up and head back to your former life. The acceptance you would temporarily feel wouldn't be worth the inevitable heartbreak of getting pulled back into that lifestyle. You deserve better than that, and God wants better than that for you. Please continue to write here and know that I, for one, do care about you and what you've gone through. For whatever it is worth, I would also like to apologize to you on behalf of the Church at large for the gross mistreatments you have had.

[Willow]

Hi Mike,

I was a music director at a charismatic church and suffered disappointment through having reponsibilities heaped on me while withholding recognition or reward. Anyway.... I did a short stint with the Vineyard. It was a nice church while we met in homes, but soon as they mentioned a building, the dynamics changed and the power struggle began. I bailed out. I don't go to church anymore. I feel like you about the production, manipulation, structure, control... and an overall feeling that I'm in a business and not a spiritual family. Anyway... I found some helpful resources on a New Zealand site that may also help you. The only two alternatives are not the church or your drug friends. It takes awhile to lock into the healthy alternatives, but I'm slowly finding other places to get and give the community interaction I need. One place is at work. Another place is the farm where I keep my horses. There's spiritual, warm, good people all around you. Don't box them into a christian definition, but please don't get back on drugs. That would be suicide. Hey... maybe you should move to Nashville. That's where I live and it's full of people who make a living from being artists. And it's OK to be weird here... LOL! I know... I are one!!

Here's the web site and article that helped me so greatly.

http://www.reality.org.nz/articles/32/32-jamieson.html

[Beautiful_Dreamer]

On The Road, I definitely hear you. My group didn't tell me this, but I have been told or it has been inferred to me that if you ask questions or ask 'too many questions' (and usually one or two is too many), that you are somehow rebellious or sinning or evil or subversive or ...something. I am suspicious of groups like that because it would be one thing if I were intentionally trying to upset people but I am not and I figure if a group or leader doesn't have anything to hide about their beliefs then why should they get upset if I ask a question? Isn't it their job as a pastor to answer questions and help people along their spiritual paths?

[Beautiful_Dreamer]

Doug, it's amazing how the number of people hurt in nondenominational groups/churches. I wonder if it is because they lack accountability and structure? Also, it seems like many nondenominational types are prone to the flakier side of Christianity - always looking for the next manifestation, movement, and hype instead of getting rooted in the Word, which is less emotional. What do you think?


I think the lack of accountability is a big part of the problem. I notice the 'flakier' stuff too...honestly they do seem to get more into the emotional side of things and are very similar to the Pentecostal movement in terms of the energy and speaking in toungues, but since they have no real structure or organization you often cannot find out what they believe until you actually go in or get involved, and sometimes by then the damage has already been done.

[Beautiful_Dreamer]

((fender))

[Doug64]

Hi:


I agree that accountability is a big part of it.
The group we were in was very structured. But not everything taught was based on sound (generally accepted) Bible understanding.
They were as Beautiful Dreamer said - strongly against being questioned about anything.

Doug

[Patty]

Hi all, haven't posted in awhile because I couldn't figure this new forum out. But this particular subject made me get motivated. I really wanted to respond to "Mike." Mike, your experience is DITTO mine and my families. It was affirming just to read what you wrote. I was in the same kind of church that you were in and frankly, am surprised more people haven't spoke out about it. (I will write more, but am checking to see if this actually will post)

[ChurchHappens]

Many people might not know what the Sheperding movement was and is. So here is a great article about it.

http://www.slm.org/pubs/samples/ccbook2.html

In fact this book called Charismatic Captivation was very good: (It isn't a slam on charismatics.... just bad ones and what happens in bad churches). It certainly helped me thank the Lord in seeing what he rescued me from.

http://www.slm.org/pubs/samples/cctoc.html

http://www.slm.org/pubs/samples/ccbklet.html

Other good articles:

http://www.slm.org/trtdigst/articles/abuse.html

After going through my experiences I have compiled many of the articles and resources onto my site at: http://www.churchhappens.com/

[Doug64]

Hey (((((Willow))))):


Interesting site. Thanks.

Doug

[Sheep]

Denonimational/legalistic/in addition to the Bible we have these "guidelines"

Sheep

[mountain]

Many people might not know what the Sheperding movement was and is. So here is a great article about it.

http://www.slm.org/pubs/samples/ccbook2.html

In fact this book called Charismatic Captivation was very good: (It isn't a slam on charismatics.... just bad ones and what happens in bad churches). It certainly helped me thank the Lord in seeing what he rescued me from.

This book called Charismatic Captivation is better than good, it is great...

I have seen much of this myself. There is a tendency in many spiritual walks for discipleship. When it works, it is fantastic for the disciple. However, there are huge prices to pay for this "shortcut" to fellowship.

What we all need most of all is fellowship with the Lord Jesus Christ. However, most of us have trouble seeing Him, learning of Him, and leaning on Him so we take our problems to another human. If that human is mature and healthy, then we benefit because the fellowship provides relief from our depression, isolation, and depravity in general.

However, there are two immediate risks that can have big problems.

1. The fellowship from the discipleship becomes our drug that we become hooked on and we agree to anything to keep getting our "fix"... This leads to submission of our spirit to the point of brain washing and we loose our own God given ability to think for ourselves.

2. Even if the discipleship is healthy, one most be very careful to assure that the disciple grows in faith towards his own relationship of the Lord Jesus Christ leading to eventual independence. Too much fellowship and dependent disciples leads to stunted growth and underdeveloped faith. So in reality, as with many things, the secret is to teach a man to fish but don't catch the fish for him.

My favorite saying is that "God don't have any grand children"... everyone has to be born into the immediate family.

I was a preacher's kid and it took me 35 years to find Jesus...

mtn

[ChurchHappens]

Mountain: Ok, you're right, that book was fantastic. :)

The Lord used that as one of many things to see what was wrong with the church I came out of and to try to help my friend. If you're interested here is my story:

My ordeal started when at every meeting I was being told about the leaders authority over the members. After awhile I decided to do some research and this is what I found:

http://www.churchhappens.com/articles/authority.htm

What I was seeing from the leaders in the church was more of a rulership. They were heavy into controlling the people and everyone had to have a discipler.

Then I get this dream one night and heard a voice say "I am THE LORD not a lord, don't make a man your LORD". I didn't understand what that meant but it stuck with me. The next day a friend that also attended that same church went to have prayer with the pastor and his wife. Now these are the deliverance type prayers and can last many hours. His was over 2 hours and when he came back he said that him and the pastor are now blood brothers. I asked what do you mean? He said that the pastor made about a 15 minute vow to God in how he (the pastor) would never hurt him (my friend) and his family and in return he needs to put his trust in him (the pastor). When he told me that I flipped inside but didn't tell him right away until I did more scripture hunting and found we are never to do that and we even need to be careful even if we make vows to God. (Numbers 30 is an interesting chapter. It really shows the spiritual headship of the man of his household and not a priest. It was good for my friend to see because his family was receiving these same prayers and told to obey the leaders without question. Even to disobey their father and husband. So when there was conflict in the home his family would run or call their disciplers at all hours of the day.)

Then I was given a book by a discipleship leader called "Under Cover" and it didn't sit right with what I read in the New Testament and my earlier research. Again it sounded like the Old Testament priestly rule. Even on page 101 he translates the verse "Slaves obey your earthly masters" to "Servants [employees, church members, civilians, etc.] respectfully obey your earthly masters [employers, church leaders, civil authorities, etc.]...." (Eph. 6:5-8) So church members are servants and church leaders are their masters. That word for master is the same as Lord. So maybe that was what the Lord was talking about in my dream.

Then I read some more scripture: 1Co 7:23 You were bought with a price; do not become slaves of men. Rom 6:16 Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey,... Mat 6:24 "No one can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to one and despise the other...

Well I did more research on the "Under Cover" book and I wrote to the pastor of the church branch I was attending and that pastor told me not to return because I was divisive and dangerous and so I met with the head pastor and he gave me a book called "Spiritual Authority" by Watchman Nee and he told me that I could only attend the main church.

That book was worse than "Under Cover" for example:

Page 22-23 under “First Lesson a Worker Should Learn Is Obey Authority”: We are under men's authority as well as having men under our authority. This is our position. Even the Lord Jesus on earth was subject not only to God but also to other's authority... A Christian worker ought to know who is above him. Some do not know who are the authorities above them, hence they do not obey. We should not be occupied with right or wrong, good or evil; rather should we know who is the authority above us. Once we learn to whom we must be subject, we naturally find our place in the body.

Page 71 under “Be Fearlessly Subject to Delegated Authority”: People will perhaps argue, "What if the authority is wrong?" The answer is, If God dares to entrust His authority to men, then we can dare to obey. Whether the one in authority is right or wrong does not concern us, since he has to be responsible directly to God. The obedient needs only to obey; the Lord will not hold us responsible for any mistaken obedience, rather will He hold the delegated authority responsible for his erroneous act. Insubordination, however, is rebellion, and for this the one under authority must answer to God.

Page 180-181 under “To Be in Authority Often Means Loneliness”: In learning to be in authority we ought to be sanctified before brothers and sisters. Many legitimate things we cannot do and many lawful words we cannot speak. We must be sanctified both in words and in sentiments. According to ourselves we take a certain attitude, but among God's children we will be sanctified. Even our fellowship with brothers and sisters must have a limit beyond which we will neither be casual nor frivolous. We should rather lose our liberty, we rather will be lonely. Loneliness is the mark of authority... The opposite of holiness is commonness, not sin. To be sanctified is to be different from others....The sparrows fly in flocks, whereas the eagles fly singly....To be in authority requires restraint; one must sanctify himself. Others may but you cannot; others may speak, but you cannot....You may feel lonely and miss the fervor of the crowd; nevertheless, you dare not mingle with the brothers and sisters in joking and jesting. This is the price of authority. Unless we sanctify ourselves like our Lord we are not qualified to be in authority.

Page 182-183 under “To Be in Authority Requires Restraining One's Affections”: I will show myself holy among those who are near me."...There is a much severer discipline applied to them than to the people in general.... As has already been mentioned, the opposite of holiness is commonness. Holiness means that others may, but I cannot. What the disciples may do, the Lord does not. What other brothers may do, those in authority cannot do. Even lawful affection needs to be put under control; otherwise death can be the consequence. The people of Israel died because of their sins, but priests may die because of not being sanctified....Those who serve are anointed by God. They should sacrifice their own affections, denying even legitimate ones. All who would maintain God's authority must know how to oppose their own feelings, how to lay aside the deepest of their affections towards their relatives, friends and loved ones. The demand of God is exacting: unless one lays aside his own affections he cannot serve God. He who is sanctified is God's servant; he who is not sanctified is a common person.

Page 184 under “Sanctified in Life and Enjoyment”: It is therefore a matter of enjoyment. Others may enjoy, but we cannot. Others may rejoice in pleasures (for wine speaks of rejoicing), but we cannot. People serving God are under discipline that they may be able to distinguish between the holy and the common, and between the unclean and the clean.... The higher the office, the stricter the demand. The degree of nearness to God becomes the degree of His demand. Of him to whom God entrusts more, the more will He demand. God especially concerned with whether of not His servants have sanctified themselves.

Page 185 under “Authority Is Based on Sanctification”: Authority has its foundation in sanctification... You cannot represent God if you maintain very liberal and loose communication with the people. The higher the authority the greater the separation.

Page 191 under the chapter “The Conditions for Being Delegated Authorities”: To be in authority is costly; such ones need to be sanctified from the rest and be ready for a lonely life.... As soon as one becomes too common, he is dropped from the work. His usefulness is gone, and his authority is lost.

At least now I understood where their teachings came from.

(Continued on the next post)

[ChurchHappens]

Well it was my turn to receive prayer from the pastor and his wife and when my wife and I prayed we asked God if He wanted me to go and we felt He said NO. Then we asked if He wanted us to attend that church and He said NO.

So I emailed the pastor and said: "I know this might sound strange but we have not gotten the go ahead for prayer or attending the main church at this time. I will let you know when this changes. Thanks again for your offer. I know it is a very special offer."

Then I get an email back from the pastor saying: "Your response is entirely inconsistent with the verbal understanding, agreement, and spirit of unity that you expressed in our meeting of last week, including your departing words at the close of our meeting. Due to your response to my email, I at this time ask that if you do decide to attend our churches, that you not do so, until you meet with all of the elders together to discuss your situation. This request to not attend our churches includes all ministries at this church and our other churches. We will be glad to minister to you and to have you as a part of our church family, but not in your current state of mind and heart as expressed in your recent interactions with us."

And that was it. I have not written or spoken with the pastor since then. So in a way it was one of those you can't quit you're fired things.

My friend also left after some stuff happened to him but his family stayed in that church. After about a year of not being able to get his family out he returned. Since I left the Lord lead me to alot of scriptures, books and other articles that have really allowed me to see how dangerous that teaching truly is. I believe that the LORD rescued me from being captured by a man and I'm so thankful that I obeyed HIM. My friend no longer talks with me because I'm the bad one in the churches eyes. I guess you could say that even Jesus was divisive and dangerous... especially to the religious leaders.

So the site http://www.churchhappens.com is a compilation of the best articles and resources that I have found since. It has been 2 years now and I must say it has been an interesting journey. But if we stay close to THE LORD He will guide us as He promised. For He truly is our Good Shepherd.

[Willow]

Hiya ChurchHappens,

The first ministry I was involved with took it's authority teachings directly from the Watchman Nee book you mentioned. "Others may, you may not" set off lots of memories to me. I had forgotten that phrase and it came back full force to me upon reading it. Spiritual Authority was one of the "must reads" of that ministry... among others like "Revival Lectures" and "Systematic Theology" by Charles Finney; and "Youth Aflame" by Winkie Pratney. There was a long list of books to read and seminars to attend. Bill Gothard was a popular promotion. They even modeled an "Animals" childrens record after his teachings. I've since discovered that that ministry was established on an errant doctrine called "Moral Government". It's nasty stuff ya'll and difficult to unlearn. Much of the discipleship movement seems to be influenced by their teachings. It's been hard for me not to be drawn into kinder gentler versions of this type of theology...

[Katie]

Willow, what have the kinder gentler forms of this type of theology looked like to you? How would you describe them? Watchman Nee's book was considered the standard on authority in the church I came from. The methods of control were very subtle though, and I don't believe they would consider themselves to be in the discipleship model.

[ChurchHappens]

Willow, it is good to hear that there are others here that have been shown the same thing about those errors.

At first it looked so good and the pastor seemed so humble and at first he even talked about servant leadership, that the leadership doesn't do anything without them all agreeing and how the people are to do the work of the ministry. Later I found that all not to be true. The pastor was also an elder and he was what they called the "point man" and he did make decisions without the others. In fact if anyone questions they are labeled disloyal and rebellious and told to straighten up or leave.

As far as that church, God just wants me to pray for those that would hear His voice. There have been many people that have left and it is funny how the leadership sees it as an attack from the enemy. Oh how we can be deceived. As Steve says, the problem with deception is that the deceived are deceived about being deceived.

David had a good prayer as recorded in Psalm 109 (http://bible.gospelcom.net/passage/?search=Psalms%20109;&version=51;). :eek: I haven't prayed that way towards them but there were days that it might have been a good idea. :o

[Willow]

Hi Katie... what I mean by kinder, gentler forms is that they were not as outwardly shaming. It was more of a hidden message... less outright fear and more unspoken rules and manipulation. It's really hard for me to describe without giving you names of ministries. The first group I was with demanded we sacrifice and serve under the 100% rule. We were love slaves for Christ and thus signed over our lives to the ministry. In later ministries I was with, the demands were less overt. I didn't have to disdain and leave my family... but there was still the encouragement to consider them less of a family than my church. Does this help any? It's kinda hard to put my finger on it.

[Willow]

It is pretty obvious once you get into a ministry like that and they are tearing people apart for asking simple questions... etc. I'm glad you also saw the way out.

[Pinkie Pie]

I was in a non-demoninational church that focused on healing/deliverance/casting out demons. There seemed to be a lot of band aid approaches to dealing with wounded people. After being "delivered" if you still struggled with the problem, you were basically ignored or chastised for holding onto the problem. So people stuffed their feelings and just about everyone was "walking wounded" - including the pastor. Which is probably why the abusiveness was perpetuated - because the hurt wasn't dealt with and allowed to heal, it became poison in everyone, including me, I am sorry to say.

Sometimes I still feel like a toxic person and can't understand how anyone could love me....but that's a different post......

[Ontheroad]

Pinkie Pie,

Your church sounds eerily similar to my former church. The entire focus of the church eventually surrounded issues of deliverance/casting out demons from people. Like you said, if it didn't "solve" the problem or if someone still struggled, they were lectured on the evils of not being sincere about wanting deliverance, or of being "passive" (one of the pastor's favorite words) about maintaining the deliverance, or of harboring secret sin that. Everyone was walking wounded as well, confused, condemned, and many times, disillusioned. Yet the pastor discouraged or even forbade getting outside help. Those who were truly committed could get all the help they needed from him and his ministry.

We also focused on corporate deliverance, and spent many, many hours supposedly casting demons out of territories and states, even nations. Whatever....it was a huge waste of time, in retrospect. There are so many legitimate needs of people and nations out there, and instead of helping meet them in tangible ways, we were told to fight the battle by casting out everything and anything.

I DO believe in prayer, as it is essential and the necessary. But also it should be coupled with humility, wisdom, and practicality.

[Pinkie Pie]

We also focused on corporate deliverance, and spent many, many hours supposedly casting demons out of territories and states, even nations. Whatever....it was a huge waste of time, in retrospect. There are so many legitimate needs of people and nations out there, and instead of helping meet them in tangible ways, we were told to fight the battle by casting out everything and anything.

I DO believe in prayer, as it is essential and the necessary. But also it should be coupled with humility, wisdom, and practicality.

Oh my I forgot about the "corporate" deliverance. I agree, I too believe in the power of prayer, but we dabbled in the corporate deliverance stuff too. I think that may have been part of the reason I got soooo discouraged about prayer for a period of time, because we even did "corporate" deliverance for all the crap going on at our own church, and nothing changed. We walked the neighborhood praying and doing spiritual warfare. Well the neighborhood is unchanged after all these years, and the church is gone! I believe in demonic forces and that there is a place for spiritual warfare. But "spiritualizing" everything, which is what that church did, is I believe a big part of why people are getting wounded in the Body of Christ.

"Spiritualizing" everything got so ingrained in me that I STILL struggle to overcome it to this day. I have to consciously make the effort not to see every single bad situation as a demonic attack or something to do spiritual warfare over. No wonder I got burnt out!!!

[Doug64]

Well, you have certainly summed up the former teaching from the group I used to attend. They had this convenient mixture of Old Testament and New Testament that succeeded in kepeing you in line and under their control. Any questioning was considered opposition.

I'm glad you are free of it, too.

Doug :)

[Beautiful_Dreamer]

ChurchHappens, what kind of group *was* this? Not to be rude, but this sounds more like something out of a novel than a church. George Orwell or Aldous Huxley couldn't have made this up any better. I have to wonder if the pastor and other leaders might be mentally ill somewhat, and being that I have bipolar for me to say someone else is sick really means something!

It is good that you are talking about this so that other people know that they are not alone and can also have an idea of what signs to look for before they get too involved...

I am so happy and thankful that you and yours were able to get away, and I have to say I feel very sorry for those who are still there. Have you been in contact with anyone from that group? I understand that they have probably been told to shun you but there are always those who ignore that order...

[Beautiful_Dreamer]

Willow, this 'others may, you may not' seems to go against a lot of Biblical teaching for me, because it seems that the things that are being talked about are completely innoccuous. In Romans 14, it does talk about things that might be wrong for some but not others, but it is very clear (at least to me) that if someone is wrong for you then it is because it bothers your spirit to do it, not because someone told you it was wrong because of your position. I understand keeping your nose clean and setting a good example and all that, but this doesn't seem at all what the book is talking about.

I really have to wonder about any person or group who feels the need to control people to this level.

but one thing I have had to learn is that we have to weigh what a group or man or whatever is teaching against Biblical teaching and if there is a discrepancy, the Bible wins.

[Beautiful_Dreamer]

Pinkie Pie, your group sounds so familiar I would ask if it were the same one if not for the location difference:) One thing that really bothered me was the 'corporate' casting...i do believe in prayer as well and it is great to pray for healing for people, groups, nations...but it bothered me how everything had a 'spiritual' explanation. For instance, I asked my ex once what he thought about why places like some African countries and Haiti had the problems they did while our country and many places in Europe are blessed...and he basically said that he was taught that the reason is that Africa and Haiti were 'cursed' because they were not Christian and practiced voodoo and all of that, while the US and Europe were Christian and basically we obeyed God.

This is complete crap, and anyone who knows anything about the state of the world today would see this. Many of the major countries in Europe do not consider themselves Christian countries any longer, or they are in name only...and the ones that do have a strong church have one that is not considered a 'Real Christian' church by these people (like the Catholic or Orthodox countries). And Africa has more Christians now than we do and they have felt the need to send missionaries *back* here and to Europe because of this...And never mind the fact that we are not a Christian country, although some people seem to think the only people who matter are fundamentalist Christians...but I digress...

But even if it *were* true, the sheer lack of compassion I hear for the countries in peril shocks me. I have heard some people even imply that the tsunami happened in the places that it did and caused the destruction it did because the countries involved being Muslim or other faiths. How sick is this? This is said but I don't hear a whole lot said about what should be done to help the people in need.

But then, they were highly suspicious of any explanation or anything 'the world' had to offer and everything had to have a spiritual cause. A cigar was never just a cigar...

[Florence]

My "first" abusive church had very little in common with what ya'll are talking about as far as praying for deliverance or casting out demons. That was too "charismatic" for them. It is a non-denominational church that is completely against anything remotely like that. In fact, if anyone ever admitted to having spoken in tongues, they were told they were under a demonic influence and told never to return to the church - this was true of visitors and members/regular attenders alike. Of course, they would not attempt to cast out the "demon" because this would be too "charismatic."

The church was very anti-women and any woman (usually someone new to the church because they didn't know the "rules") who had strong skills or gifts or abilities would, within 3 years, find herself to be facing all kinds of allegations. A woman could not offer suggestions or ask questions without being labeled a trouble maker or rebellious or even malicious. A woman was not allowed to pray aloud unless there were no men present. A woman could not speak from the platform. The female choir director could not make any comment to the congregation about the song the choir was about to sing - she had to have a man from the choir do the talking. A woman could not teach boys in Sunday School once they reached the 5th grade. Women could only serve on committees that were only 'for' women - like the nursery committee or the kitchen committee (men never served in the kitchen or nursery).

In my particular case, I was asked to assist the pastor in planning the worship services - offering suggestions for music, organizing and rehearsing the worship team, transposing and arranging music, etc. I was spending 20-30 hours per week working for the church (as a volunteer - the only staff position a woman could hold was secretarial). I would do all of this and then 20 minutes before the service the male songleader would show up and run through the songs with the team. (There was a group of men who did this, but they were "too busy" to attend the rehearsal earlier in the week.) They would dictate last-minute changes to the music that were often-times nearly impossible to do with this fledgling group of musicians.

When I started asking that the song leaders attend the rehearsals, I was a bad person. When the pastor selected a song that a song leader didn't know, I was blamed. When the pastor asked that I close a meeting in prayer, I was lambasted for agreeing (it was one of those unwritten rules that I was unaware of until I broke it. The pastor later told me he was testing me when he asked that I pray to see if I would be rebellious enough to pray with men present). I was admonished for pulling our 4-wheel drive pick-up out of the parking lot that was heavily sanded due to an earlier ice storm and spinning my tires - I was told this was an indication of my rebellious nature.

When I decided to take the summer off from the planning and directing of the worship team, well, that's when the sh*t really hit the fan. I met with the pastor privately to tell him and he seemed very supportive. Then something really strange happened. He insisted on giving me a hug before I left (something he had never done before - in public or private) and when he did, he attempted to kiss me. I was stunned, but told myself he was just trying to comfort me, knowing that I was giving up something I truly loved to do.

Later that same day, he met with the elders and I was suddenly the most difficult woman on the planet to work with, I was rebellious, I was not obedient to the pastor whose main concern was that I would no longer be around to make him look good. Interestingly enough, there were a couple of committee heads (there to report to the elders) at that meeting who were good friends of ours (and relatively new to the church so not aware of the unwritten, unspoken rules) who were appalled at what was being said about me in this meeting. They both came separately to tell us what had been said and were so upset by it that eventually they both left the church (one is mentioned below).

Then the pastor began preaching about me from the pulpit - not by name, but with enough information that I knew it was directed toward me.

Since there was a bit of concern expressed about my taking a break (people asking what in the world was going on), a special meeting was held with all of the people that worked closely with me in the area of worship and they were told what a terrible person I was. (I sat there with a tape player and still have the tape.) One man stood up and completely supported me and gave all the reasons he himself was concerned about the church, the pastor, the "abuses" (though he didn't call it that, no one there knew about spiritual abuse at the time), and he was subsequently run out of the church.

My husband was called in and told what a wicked woman I was and when he disagreed and pointed out the things that I had been dealing with, he was told that the pastor knew me better than my husband did and that my husband was also being rebellious in not having me under control or not supporting the pastor in wanting me to continue working under him in order to make him look good. The pastor demanded that I stand before the entire congregation and "confess" my sins of rebelliousness (which I refused to do- thank you for the applause).

The final straw actually came when we met with the pastor and the elders and one of the elders asked, "Do you believe Pastor Mike and the elders do the will of God?" I replied, "I believe you WANT to do the will of God, but no one can do His will perfectly." They all nearly went into apoplectic shock. You see, they believe they do God's will perfectly all the time. That explains why when we and others would point out times that the pastor contradicted himself, he was still "right" - he could never be wrong since he always does God's will perfectly. We walked out of that meeting and never went back. We got a couple of letters that we never opened - just wrote "Return to Sender" and put them back in the mailbox.

Only a couple of weeks later, we found out that we had been preached about from the pulpit - by name this time. He asked that if anyone knew if we were attending church somewhere else, he wanted to know so that he could "warn" that church about us.

Almost a year-to-the-day later the man was forced to resign because he was caught having an affair with a new woman in the church that he had been "counseling." It was not his first affair. So, I would say that at that church, the degradation of women was the main thrust of the abusive behavior.

While this is not the entire story - that would take a book, it is what I remember. God is so gracious in allowing me to forget much of what happened. I do have pages and pages of notes if I should ever need them outlining exactly what happened with dates, names, etc. Maybe someday I will write that book.

Florence

[Reg]

Florence, I read the whole thing and could feel my anger building. :mad: :mad: :mad:

What a bunch of chauvanistic pigs. How could they treat a woman that way. They should be whipped. All I can say to you Flo is that GOD KNOWS! ;)

The Bible says, Rom 12:19 not avenging yourselves, beloved, but giving place to wrath; for it is written, "Vengeance [is] Mine, I will repay, says [the] Lord." (MKJV)

So as hard as it is to do, they need your prayers. Remember what David said?

Heb 10:31 [It is] a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. (MKJV)

So, they are in BIG trouble and unless they repent......

I wouldn't want to trade places with them. You know the saying, "Whatever goes around comes around."

[ex-shep]

[QUOTE=Reg]Florence, I read the whole thing and could feel my anger building. :mad: :mad: :mad:

What a bunch of chauvanistic pigs. How could they treat a woman that way. They should be whipped. All I can say to you Flo is that GOD KNOWS! ;)

I must admit I have the same feeling as Reg. The preaching from the pulpit is an old shephderding ploy. We shunned a member out a a campus group that way. Admittedly the person did have some serious theological issues and had become disruptive; but that still leave a bad taste in my mouth. I cannot talk to the leader of the group to this day. Rest assured I have forgiven him amd moved on. It does show how low one can go.

In any case, you did not deserve that and you certainly deserve better.

[Patty]

I,too, shuddered reading Florence's post. But for a few details, her story could have been mine. Men in power in the church, who use that power to sexually harrass women who are "under" them (no pun intended) are unfortunately all too common. What is even more appalling and sometimes more damaging than the original offense is the amoral cover-up that takes place, protecting the man and accusing and usually ousting the "jezebel" woman. So far pervasive are these cover-ups that a woman so wrongly affected, as soon as she gets a whif, a hint, a little suspicion that the "pastor," "elder," "shepherd," or other so-called man in power that uses his position to worm his way into her (again, no pun intended) that the only thing she can do is LISTEN to that inner voice, it is probably the Holy Spirit and FLEE!! Flee, even if it means giving up your church family, close friends, your ministry, whatever. No good will come from it. Honestly, I have never read of one single situation, where a man such as this admits his sin and apologizes and the woman is embraced and cared for by the church. Never. Usually, he has to get caught red-handed before he will come out of denial. And then, its only because he was caught. Even, then, the church will probably pay for his counseling, love him, have him and his poor wife over for many dinners and restore him as soon as possible, while the offended woman must leave, tainted and slandered. This scenario is as old as the Bible, unfortunately.

[Florence]

This all happened several years ago now and during the initial months after he was caught in the adulterous affair, I had several people calling, writing, or stopping me on the street to "apologize" for shunning me and to update me on what was going on. Many people in the church wanted to get him counseling and then "restore" him - but he said he didn't want to be restored. He did leave the ministry and is now a motivational speaker who travels all over the world. They let him sell the house they had bought him and keep the money. They paid for his move to another community and for his supposed counseling (he was so slick I think he could have played any counselor and made them think in a very short time that he was "healed.") They also gave him a sizable amount of money - I believe it was comparable to one year's salary so that he would have time to find a job and get settled in a nearby town (where his wife's parents live - his wife stayed with him but on the condition that she live near her parents and daughter.)

The woman with whom he had the affair was not shunned - before he was caught, she was being mentored by an elder's wife and she told the elder's wife first that she was having an affair and that it was with someone in leadership in the church. So, she, being a frail, helpless female (unlike those of us who were "rebellious" because we were more outspoken) was completely supported and stayed in the church. I assume she is still there even now. Poor thing.

The wife is happy to have him off traveling the world - I doubt they have a real marriage but she had never worked and could not have supported herself and the kids who were still at home, so she stayed with the bum and lets him globe-trot (and I'm sure there are plenty of women out there) while she is well-kept with his large salary, big house, and fancy cars.

"Vengeance is mine, I will repay . . . " Okay, Lord, I'm waiting . . .

[Patty]

Wow, I have never, to this day, had one single person, ever apologize to me for the "Shunning" which, to tell you the truth, has been very painful. I no longer hope or wait for these apologies like I used to. I just have to trust that God knows what I need and rest in His providence. It has been a hard lesson for me.

[ex-shep]

Wow, I have never, to this day, had one single person, ever apologize to me for the "Shunning" which, to tell you the truth, has been very painful. I no longer hope or wait for these apologies like I used to. I just have to trust that God knows what I need and rest in His providence. It has been a hard lesson for me.


Thankfully I did apologize to the woman who was shunned in the campus group in 1982. She, sadly was too far gone in her own spiritual venue [ended up in faith healing group which eschewed medicine], but at least I came clean and felt the better for it.

[ex-shep]

Brought the post forward. I was actually looking for posts containing the story of my groups, but failed. I have feeling it disapeared into cyberspace with the demise of the original forum. Still the threads are a good read.
Any new members are welcome to share what they were in if they feel up to it. It is also OK to take a rain check. I can safely say the forum would understand.

[Elisabeth]

The only one I read so far is Florence's. My own SA church was rather like that; not as bad with the sexism, but bad enough.:(

[ex-shep]

The only one I read so far is Florence's. My own SA church was rather like that; not as bad with the sexism, but bad enough.:(

The "Community" even today has many women in an unusually subservient state. There was church in Texas where the single women were silent and unaproachable, even my wife present. I still cringe at the arranged marriages.

[Elisabeth]

The "Community" even today has many women in an unusually subservient state. There was church in Texas where the single women were silent and unaproachable, even my wife present. I still cringe at the arranged marriages.

Arranged marriages?!:eek: Wow!

[ex-shep]

[QUOTE=Elisabeth;50397]Arranged marriages?!:eek: Wow![/QUOTE

I have never had the heart to tell Tammy that an elder would have matched us up if I joined. I did not wake up to that until I was in an online forum of former Community members. It took a couple of days to process that one and let the shock wear off.

[secrethopes]

I guess this would be kind of like a poll. If you are comfortable answering this, what type of chult (church cult) were/are you in? I'll go first:

Nondenominational, formerly of Maranatha Ministries

Vineyard... many claim to be nondenominational but it has been a movement long enough to really be considered a denomination

[Elisabeth]

I was in a large mainline denomination. A pentecostal group got me out of the abusive group and helped be start to heal. The interesting thing is I am in a church in the denomination where I was abused again, and this church nothing like the abusive one. It is very healthy, and I am going through a lot of healing with their help. I'm not sure it really matters what denomination you were abused it; I know that some people on this forum were abused in a denomination and stayed in that same denomination, just started going to a different church within that denomination. Abuse like what we in this group have experienced can happen in any denomination, no matter how well thought of and biblical that denomination is. I like the word that was coined here, chult, because people who have never experienced spiritual abuse, or have but haven't acknowledged it, think of cults as being groups that are "way out there." They don't think of the possibility that a cult group can be in a church of their own denomination, only a few miles away! The sad truth is, it can. :eek: :eek:

The flip side of it is if a person has been abused, they can find healing in a different church, maybe even of the same denomination. I have never regretted going back to the denomination where I was abused in. I do think there are many good Christian leaders out there. :D

[ex-shep]

I was in a large mainline denomination. A pentecostal group got me out of the abusive group and helped be start to heal. The interesting thing is I am in a church in the denomination where I was abused again, and this church nothing like the abusive one. It is very healthy, and I am going through a lot of healing with their help. I'm not sure it really matters what denomination you were abused it; I know that some people on this forum were abused in a denomination and stayed in that same denomination, just started going to a different church within that denomination. The flip side of it is if a person has been abused, they can find healing in a different church, maybe even of the same denomination. I have never regretted going back to the denomination where I was abused in. I do think there are many good Christian leaders out there. :D


I can relate to your post. I would never in most wildest dreams imagine the group I would get Tammy out of, I ended up joining for 2 years. The group was a mixed bag. There were some groups which were unusually healthy. There were others still stuck in the shepherding mindset of its origins. Looking back on it, it was two years well spent. I do not regret it.

Of course you are right, any group can be abusive. There was an evangelical Quaker church that received some bad press in the Eighties. It was rather surprising at the congregation runs the church and will not move unless there is unaminomous consent. The clerk of meeting must have rule with an iron fist- an oddity in a pacifistic group.

[hoipoloi]

I went to "Our Lady of Unending Pain and Self Loathing" :eek:


I know that this was a very serious posting, but I could not help laughing out loud at the sheer spot-on truthfulness of this with my own experience.

:eek::):) And I still have tears of hysteria coming down my face.

Pulling myself together .....

My own church:

For 40 years I have gone to a Church of England church in the north of England, and I have been very content and spiritually renewed each week.

However, a few years ago, the church went down the fundementalist Rick Warren path (this detail became clear this January by a response here to a post where I described what was happening).

In hindsight, I was obviously the scapegoat needed for the process to work, and I had to endure the spiritual abuse that goes with it. My experience is not as bad as some, but the type of church is an interesting question.

When the preachers were truly accountable to bishops, things were not bad -- when the links were weakened and the church started the Purpose Driven road, suddenly it all became fascistic. This seems to fit with what has already been said about true accountability.

I hope this has been helpful in your "poll".

God bless to all.

:)

[jane]

I was in a non-denominational- spirit led, bible preached, family centered church..........(little did we know they meant centered around pastor's family)..........

where the Pastor attended many of those mega church trainings out west......and came back dreaming of being the head of a mega church......... heard some of the names of what people are listing.

Then we went to Calvary Chapel for less than 6 months......they don't believe in some of the "gifts" that our last church did.....but they did believe in pastor worship, leadership idoltry,sexism, racism and had many same spiritually abusive ways..........so we left


jane

[ex-shep]

I know that this was a very serious posting, but I could not help laughing out loud at the sheer spot-on truthfulness of this with my own experience.

:eek::):) And I still have tears of hysteria coming down my face.

Pulling myself together .....

My own church:

For 40 years I have gone to a Church of England church in the north of England, and I have been very content and spiritually renewed each week.

However, a few years ago, the church went down the fundementalist Rick Warren path (this detail became clear this January by a response here to a post where I described what was happening).

In hindsight, I was obviously the scapegoat needed for the process to work, and I had to endure the spiritual abuse that goes with it. My experience is not as bad as some, but the type of church is an interesting question.

When the preachers were truly accountable to bishops, things were not bad -- when the links were weakened and the church started the Purpose Driven road, suddenly it all became fascistic. This seems to fit with what has already been said about true accountability.

I hope this has been helpful in your "poll".

God bless to all.

:)


It is interesting how some churches can go bad and others not. The church in Texas was committed to Rick Warren and Saddleback. It was relaxed and easy going. Much to their credit, the church remembered its shepherding origins and went to great lengths to distance themselves from it.

You may have a point though. There was an attempt to discontinue a service with an emphasis on biblical exposition. Fortunately the outcry was do deafening that the effort was abandoned. My wife and I left before that stage.

Good share. Thanks for the contribution.

[Elisabeth]

Of course you are right, any group can be abusive. There was an evangelical Quaker church that received some bad press in the Eighties. It was rather surprising at the congregation runs the church and will not move unless there is unaminomous consent. The clerk of meeting must have rule with an iron fist- an oddity in a pacifistic group.

My abusive church was "congregationally led" also. I put that it quotes because it was in words, and what they claimed to be, but not in reality. The pastor was always the one who would lead the business meetings, and he was in so much control over the people, if he didn't like something, he could usually shut down any movement in that direction by letting his displeasure be known. Likewise, if he liked something, he could usually get it to go through by pumping it up. Also, there were times he stonewalled things or acted behind the congregation's back...

[Carmen]

Doug, it's amazing how the number of people hurt in nondenominational groups/churches. I wonder if it is because they lack accountability and structure? Also, it seems like many nondenominational types are prone to the flakier side of Christianity - always looking for the next manifestation, movement, and hype instead of getting rooted in the Word, which is less emotional. What do you think?

I currently attend a non-denominational church - founded for ex-pats that live in or around Milan. They are structured though, and not flaky at all. The pastor gives expository sermons (was in the book of John for m-o-n-t-h-s, and only very rarely topical ones - expository preaching keeps pastors on track, I think. Another pastor is associated with their church, he has a reformed education, but prefers to be called non-denominational. I have talked at length with both, they are definitely not flaky, are easy to approach and not judgmental.

I used to be into word-faith, believed in healing a-la Benny Hinn, prosperity teaching, speaking in tongues (gibberish, not real languages), Joel's Army, spiritual mapping, looked for experiences rather than God himself (though I thought I was looking for more of God at the time). Even away from such churches TBN kept me going for a while. I was such a dope. Can't say I'm wise now, but am wise enough to learn from my mistakes, I won't go back to that stuff.

Before finding the non-denominational church I was spiritually abused in a reformed church (the strict and judgmental kind) I don't blame the kind of church though, think it was just the pastor's quirk.

[ex-shep]

My abusive church was "congregationally led" also. I put that it quotes because it was in words, and what they claimed to be, but not in reality. The pastor was always the one who would lead the business meetings, and he was in so much control over the people, if he didn't like something, he could usually shut down any movement in that direction by letting his displeasure be known. Likewise, if he liked something, he could usually get it to go through by pumping it up. Also, there were times he stonewalled things or acted behind the congregation's back...

It actually remembered went I went to visit a Quaker meeting on a Sunday morning. The clerk was a women who ran the announcement section with ununusual deliberation. I got a ride to the train and asked if the meeting had a pastor. No, it was an unprogrammed silent meeting. I ran this past a lifelong Quaker friend. He said you can get clerk who will run a meeting. Some much for naievete.

[ex-shep]

Even away from such churches TBN kept me going for a while. I was such a dope. Can't say I'm wise now, but am wise enough to learn from my mistakes, I won't go back to that stuff.



No, you are not a dope; you just had not smartened up to what was going on. I have had to remind myself that it was not my fault. Isn't mind control wonderful? :eek:

[Elisabeth]

No, you are not a dope; you just had not smartened up to what was going on. I have had to remind myself that it was not my fault. Isn't mind control wonderful? :eek:

Before I got onto this site I never even considered how much mind control figured into the abuse I suffered. It figured in totally.

[tke316]

Churches of which I have been an official member - Missouri Synod Lutheran (2 years), Reformed Church in America (18 years), Fundamentalist Independent Baptist (1 year), Christian and Missionary Alliance (5 years), Roman Catholic (13 years)

Churches I have attended for at least a few months - Evangelical Free, Presbyterian, United Methodist, Baptist, Covenant, United Church of Christ, emerging church version of Christian Reformed (or is that Christian Reformed version of an emerging church?)

Churches I have visited - Seventh Day Adventist, Assembly of God, Evangelical Lutheran Church in America, Wisconsin Synod Lutheran, United Brethren, Lutheran Brethren

I've been around the block a few times.

I've been on the rolls (roles?) of three Catholic parishes. All the moves were at least partially due to geographic changes.

It was one of those parishes where I perceived I was a bit abused.

I may have brought the abuse on myself by trying to light fires under the luke-warm and the luke-warm folks did not see that as my role. I was employed by the parish and was trying to do work for the Lord.

I was eager to enable Christians to be effective. Many Christians do not want to be effective if it compromises their ability to be comfortable. My efforts were not well received. Tradition and heritage count more in some circles than effectiveness.

I have not given up on the Catholic church but I'm not putting all my eggs in one basket. I am also now involved with a non-Catholic group that is trying to be effective by studying what it means to be part of the emerging church; studying how to be effective in a post-modern world.

[Willow]

Many Christians do not want to be effective if it compromises their ability to be comfortable.

Isn't there some way to be comfortably effective? Just curious...
It's preached so hard in many churches to deny yourself, take up your cross, and follow the leader. I did that for over 20 years and at the end had little of myself left.

[tke316]

Isn't there some way to be comfortably effective? Just curious...
It's preached so hard in many churches to deny yourself, take up your cross, and follow the leader. I did that for over 20 years and at the end had little of myself left.

There's got to be some balance.

I also get nervous with those who go looking for pain (think of the popular conception of the Opus Dei). Life gives us enough pain without thinking God wants us to give ourselves pain with no possible gain.

But if we are Christians we are likely to be uncomfortable now and then. Helping other people will not always be comfortable. Praying with other people is about the most uncomforable thing I can think of but I know I need to learn to do it. Even praying is uncomfortable for me but I know I need to do it.

[Elisabeth]

Isn't there some way to be comfortably effective? Just curious...
It's preached so hard in many churches to deny yourself, take up your cross, and follow the leader. I did that for over 20 years and at the end had little of myself left.

That's just it - it's taught to follow the leader - the pastor, the church, traditions, etc., instead of following God.

[Willow]

Praying with other people is about the most uncomforable thing I can think of but I know I need to learn to do it. Even praying is uncomfortable for me but I know I need to do it.

There are certain moments in life... that the urgency and desire is so wonderful, I forget myself and my fears and have already prayed, acted, ministered... before I even realized what happened. Later I can only wonder at how I was able to do that?

[Doug64]

I see the problem as being a type of 'all or none' situation.

Because we take up our cross (whatever that is) and follow Christ (live in His example) doesn't preclude us from ministering to someone, offering an ear for their problems, or doing something to help another person.

My brother-in-law liked to quote the following sort-of joke which seems to be all too true at times.
"My friend told me to cheer up, things could be worse......so I cheered up and right away they got worse.

Doug64