The Shall Nots

[Reg]

Please bear with me on this one.

What got me thinking about this again is what I read from yeshua'smags where she wrote: “
Doctrine isn't from God. He really didn't even want to give us "The Ten Commandments". Much
less rules about dumb stuff like "no dancing" and liturgical color is appropriate. Satan is the
father of confusion and chaos....God is the Father of comfort and clarity.”

I have always wondered why the 10 Commandments where always presented in the negative,
“Thou Shall Not”.

"You shall have no other gods before me.
"You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth
beneath or in the waters below. 5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them

"You shall not misuse the name of the LORD your God, for the LORD will not hold anyone
guiltless who misuses his name.

"You shall not murder.

"You shall not commit adultery.

"You shall not steal.

You shall not give false testimony against your neighbor.

"You shall not covet your neighbor's house. You shall not covet your neighbor's wife, or his
manservant or maidservant, his ox or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbor."

Only "Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy and "Honor your father and your mother, so
that you may live long in the land the LORD your God is giving you are in the positive.

Why do you think this is so?


It has been proved that you cannot get a positive result from a negative suggestion or command.
Any golfer knows that if you tell your playing partner not to miss the putt, go in the water or
woods that is what they think about before hitting their ball. Where the ball shouldn’t go instead
of where it should go. It seems that has a negative affect on them and they usually end up doing
what you say NOT to do.

The correct strategy is to focus on where you want the ball to go, not where you don’t want it to
go. To visualize this helps a great deal in making a good shot.

So why did God give us the “Shall Nots”?

I’ve had this thought on and off for several years. Has anyone else thought about this or am I way
off base here?

Here is something that I read that is how to achieve positive results in your life by how you think.
It’s not really psyco-babble. It’s the way it is. Although geared toward business, it also works in
other areas of our lives.

Thirteen Strategic Actions To Achieve A Positive, Proactive and Prosperous Life
by Glenn Ebersole

At each of my business coaching sessions or at a Strategic Planning Team meeting, I always ask
my clients to share a positive story or positive business and personal experience that they have
had since our last meeting. I strongly believe in celebrating success in business and in our
personal life and encourage my clients to do just that. Most of the time, my clients readily share
something, but sometimes they hesitate or struggle to think of something positive to share. This
experience of witnessing their hesitancy and/or their struggle with this has been extremely eye-
opening and valuable to me as a business coach. It has provided me with an opportunity to coach
them on how to achieve a positive, proactive and prosperous life and to recognize the many
positive things that surround them everyday, which they may be taking for granted or not
recognizing. Your Strategic Thinking Business Coach developed the following list of strategic
actions that if followed will afford you the opportunity to never be at a loss to share something
positive when asked to do so.

Strategic Action #1: Develop a clearly defined and focused vision for your business and your
personal life.

Strategic Action #2: Develop goals and objectives with deadlines for your business and yourself

Strategic Action #3: Commit to and become a better steward of your time. Work toward being a
better manager of your time and make sure you include time for yourself and family.

Strategic Action #4: Become a lifelong learner. Always look for and take advantage of new
learning opportunities.

Strategic Action #5: Always be thankful for whatever you have. Commit to being positive and to
adopt an attitude of thankfulness.

Strategic Action #6: Focus on what you have achieved, rather than what you have not achieved.
Avoid the ““perfectionist syndrome.””

Strategic Action #7: Make investments in yourself. As a business coach, I highly recommend that
my clients invest in their self-improvement. There are many avenues to do this and I believe the
best or one of the best investments you can make today is an investment in yourself.

Strategic Action #8: Overcome your fears and gain the ““will to win.”” Fear is a very powerful
negative emotion that kills motivation. Most people will never take chances because they fear
failure or some other consequence. By taking some chances you will have a greater probability of
success as compared to those who never take a chance.

Strategic Action #9: Find good mentors and retain a professional coach. The advice and the
independent view gained from them will be very valuable to you.

Strategic Action #10: Be someone who gives, but does not expect anything in return. Give to
others ““without any strings attached.””

Strategic Action #11: Follow the Golden Rule and treat other people the way you would like to
be treated.

Strategic Action #12: Discover your passion and follow it in your business and your personal life!

Strategic Action #13: Commit to achieving good health. Strive to have a healthy mind and a
healthy body.

[mary]

But... But...

The "thou shalt nots" are taken care of for us by Jesus Christ, aren't they? We're not under the law; if we're His, we're under grace. (1 Corinthians 15, et al.) Obedience to the Ten Commandments is a fruit of the Spirit, given first when we're converted, and then progressively as we're sanctified. We can't improve upon anything that Christ did for us when He said, "It is finished." Can we?

If we violate one commandment, we've violated them all. Therefore, we're all ultimately and finally guilty. Except that we have an Advocate Who pleads for us and will always be heard and win. And that's Jesus Christ, the Perfect Man. We win! :)

There's no violation of the Ten Commandments or any other man-made or God-given law that we can commit that God's forgiveness and mercy can't exceed. He will always restore us to His friendship.

Exactly so: Satan is the father of confusion. I rest my case against him on that.

If it's all of Jesus, by His Holy Spirit, and we're kept by and for our loving, Heavenly Father's pleasure, and the Bible is correct in its reiteration that we can "rest in Him," then how do this "doing" and business model stuff apply? Maybe - probably - I'm stupid, but --

I reiterate what I started out with: but... But...

mary

[yeshua'smags]

Mary, you are anything but stupid!

I, on the other hand....:D...well maybe not stupid, just simple? Anyway, I look at it like this....

I have not committed murder today, not even in my heart (I don't think :o). I have not cheated on my husband today ( or any other day....I know what you were thinking....:D jk). I have not gone out and represented God in a way that he wouldn't want to be represented, (taking his name in vain)....those are all positive things even though I have not done them.

Does that make sense?

[mary]

Mary, you are anything but stupid!

I, on the other hand....:D...well maybe not stupid, just simple? Anyway, I look at it like this....

I have not committed murder today, not even in my heart (I don't think :o). I have not cheated on my husband today ( or any other day....I know what you were thinking....:D jk). I have not gone out and represented God in a way that he wouldn't want to be represented, (taking his name in vain)....those are all positive things even though I have not done them.

Does that make sense?

Yeah, but Jesus said "whosoever looketh upon a woman..." and "whosoever hateth his brother..." or "whosoever [calls his brother a name]..." Every single day, I call people morons, idiots, dirtbags, etc. Oh, James 3 and Romans 7, but the blessedness of Romans 8:1! :o Admittedly, about 90% of this happens when I'm behind the wheel of my car. But I still say things every day to my husband that I later regret. Those things are awful. I hate my foul mouth and I wish I could stop saying these things. I shouldn't say or do a lot of things - and they stand as irrefutable proof of my still-sinful nature. For about 5 minutes a couple of years ago, I felt "flattered" by "pastor's" attentions. Sinful, sinful mary!!! :eek: And :mad: - at myself. What a rotten thing that was even to occur to me!

But will I pay eternally for these sins? No! Will you or anyone else who is His pay for his or her sins? No! My Lord and Savior has taken them from me and they're no longer laid to my account, though humans can and do lay them to my account. I'm starting to care less about that. If, however, I say I am without sin, I lie. (1 John, somewhere...) If I am caught speeding in my car, I will pay the earthly consequences in the form of a ticket. But the sin of disobeying earthly laws will not be held against me.

I look at O. J. Simpson on TV and think terrible thoughts sometimes. But vengeance is the Lord's and He will repay. I don't know what I would do if I ever saw O. J. in person, but I would hope that my behavior would bear some faint resemblance to that of my Heavenly Father's towards me when I was still so far off from Him...

"All we like sheep have gone astray..." I've gone astray more than most, especially with my mouth. All I can say now is, "Lord, have mercy on me, a sinner..." Forgiven and set free now, though, no longer under the bondage of Adam's sin! Now under the Second Adam, Jesus Christ! And so are all those who believe and repent! What a wonderful place to be! :) :) :)

All I can do now is praise Him and thank Him - and give Him all the glory!

Whaddya think?????

Love,

mary

[yeshua'smags]

I agree, I was just saying that they aren't negative just because they say "You shouldn't".

[Tristan]

Here is something I picked up at my work through professional development workshops:

Telling someone, "Don't forget to take out the garbage." instead of saying, "Remember to take out the garbage".....the last is more pleasant to remember. Same message but different send.

At my job we are often reminded to try to find a positive way to send a message to co-workers - this strategy has come up many times. Supervisors will ask "how could we say _____ so " " will be more willing to hear you?" People tend to tune in on the second and third words of a message. If the message has negativity in it, we tend to block it out because it isn't pleasant. Our minds connect negative words with negative experiences even though they are unrelated situations. e.g. how many times do people say "forget that!" or "just forget it!" when angry and frustrated. "I forgot," then "how could you forget?" .... and continuing dialogue within - "if I forget to take out the garbage" becomes "oh, I dont want to think about it".....so we don't. "Don't..." is often associated with a nagging tone. Negative feelings result from these conversations but we continue to communicate this way because we are not usually aware we are doing it, not because we would actually want to send a negative message to others.

Positive messages such as "Remember to..." uses a softer tone and is more pleasant to receive resulting in anticipating even an unpleasant task with a more positive attitude. The task takes less engergy because we are less stressed by all the negative thoughts. That doesnt mean the task will always be remembered, however when getting back to task, there is less or no guilt and blame involved.

Before my job place began encouraging staff to change their strategies in this area of communication, there was a lot of complaining, low moral, cliques....basically poor communication and misunderstanding. Changing over to more positive communication - more respectful ways to say what we expected or hoped for from others brought a lot more productive, happy relationships. In all the jobs I've had, this atmosphere is always the most relaxed and enjoyable to work in.

Anyways....just something I connected with when I read the post. :) Tristan.

[Hope 98]

I have often wondered about the "shall nots" myself.

Much of the old testament seems focussed on what one should NOT do. And sometimes I think that the point behind all that was contrast. In some ways the stories of Israel are to show us that humans CAN'T keep the law.

Jesus, however, said "Love God, and love your neighbor as yourself". Notice the absence of the word "not". He also said that all of the Law & the prophets hang on that simple concept.

"The Law" is good, but it doesn't save us. It can only bring death. Grace brings life.

[Jerry]

Yeah, but Jesus said "whosoever looketh upon a woman..." and "whosoever hateth his brother..." or "whosoever [calls his brother a name]..." Every single day, I call people morons, idiots, dirtbags, etc.
Dear Mary,,,
There is a subtle new-once to this passage that I offer for your consideration that you seem to have missed......ie; "whosoever says to his brother "Racca !!" is in danger"........Notice that it says in danger of ,,,,not that the act of that judgment is sin in and of itself...If we did not make internal judgments there would be no "Disearnment"....Rather Christ warns here that punishment remains Gods domain and that "internal discerning judgment" is to be used to modify our own behavior,,,NOT to take action to modify someone else's behavior....As for "Morons,idiots and dirtbags",,,,,,well lets just say there is a rather large amount of them scattered generously throughout the entire population :D
Love Jerry

[Jerry]

But... But...

The "thou shalt nots" are taken care of for us by Jesus Christ, aren't they? We're not under the law;
If we violate one commandment, we've violated them all.

Dear Mary,,,,
Looks like this is "Gang up on Mary Day" :D not really ;) it's just that this discussion brings up scripture concepts that are often twisted. I can't tell you how many times I have heard it preached that Christians are no longer under the law....That "Preaching" is a total absurdity....Christ Himself states,,Do not think that I come to destroy the law,,for I tell you this,,That not one jot or tittle shall pass from the law until all is fulfilled ,,,, "All" will be fulfilled upon His return,,,,and to my knowledge,,, He ain't here yet....Read over the "Moral Laws" in Leviticus,,,tell me which of those laws can I now ignore because I belong to Christ?????....No ,the only things nailed to the Cross with Christ were the "Blood Ordnances" as He became the "perfect sacrifice",,,,,,everything else stands as it was and is.If we are not under the Law there would be no need for forgiviness and Christ's suffering was for naught.....

If we violate one commandment,we've violated them all...A teaching of Paul that is commonly used (twisted) to really load the Christian wagon with guilt......Paul was simply stating that anything that serves to separate us from God can be defined as "sin"......It was never Paul's intent to define all sin as equal beyond that simple axium.....Take the case of two sinners,,,,,"Ted Bundy",,,,,and 7 year old Johnny who stole candy from the Drug Store....Common sense tells me that God looks at one with "Thundering Vengeance" and looks at the other with a wink and a smile....Both sins needing correction,I do not believe God is an idiot ;)
Love Jerry

[mary]

Hey, Jerry,

Well, I don't mind being ganged up on because, as you know, I came back here to the forum with a new 'tude! :D :D :D

What I meant by not being under the law is that we who belong to the Lord Jesus Christ and are being readied by the operation of His Holy Spirit to live with Him for eternity are not under the law as to our eternal destination. We're under grace; that and that only saves us, not our own "good works." Our good works are fruit of the indwelling Spirit, not of ourselves. Likewise, when we sin, "it is no longer I who sin, but sin dwelling in me." (Romans 7:17.) We still, however, must endure the earthly consequences of our sin, and sometimes, God must take us to the woodshed for resisting and, by the free will we have, obstinately opposing the work of the Holy Spirit within us.

The Lord Jesus Christ fulfilled the requirements of law-keeping for those who are His, yet we must still ask for forgiveness when the sin that still lives within our "work-in-process-of-sanctification" nature manifests itself.

God didn't step in and stay the hand of the State of Texas when it was time for Karla Faye Tucker to pay her debt to society. He put the sword in the hand of the state, and she had to pay her due penalty. But I do think there's a good chance that she's now with Him, due to the "fruit" she showed after her trial and conviction...

The difference is that when God takes us, His children, to the woodshed, it's only out of the love of a compassionate Father. Good things will come out of it, only good things. When He takes the ungodly to the woodshed, sometimes He does it to draw them to Himself and to act in concert with their conversion, and other times He does it in wrath. It's not up to any of us to say which is which. At one time, many years ago, when I was one of the ungodly, God took me to the woodshed and used it as a means of conversion. Some lessons I still haven't learned and I won't until I'm in glory. I bow gratefully to His chastening now, for I know it comes from love. Not the love of an earthly father, of which I know absolutely nothing, but the love of a Heavenly Father who loves as no earthly father ever could.

You cite Matthew 5:18; the verse in context states in full, "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven." (Matthew 5:17-19.) Jesus Christ fulfilled the entire law, including the Levitical ones, on our behalf and His righteousness is imputed to us. This is one of the problems I had with Messianic Judaism: they were still keeping many of the Levitical laws, even though as believers in Yeshua HaMashiach, they were under grace. They were misguided, to say the least.

You bet that anything that separates us from God is sin! I recall my old "pastor" standing up there in the pulpit one Sunday, preaching that "anything that is contrary to God's will or God's Word is a 'gate of hell' to us and we should avoid it as the death-dealer it is." Well, I thought at the time, and what are you to me, pal? You're requiring me to violate my marriage vows - with you. "Pastor" was a gaping, vast "gate of hell" to me, but he had his own "moral code" and didn't see it that way. Jerk. :mad: (There I go again, calling people names! :o :cool: )

All sin is a stench in God's nostrils and offensive to Him in ways we can't begin to imagine. But I believe literally and for all time that we can't sin beyond God's ability to forgive. Sincere repentance, given to a person by the action of the Holy Spirit in one who is converted, will always result in God's forgiveness. He's promised us that.

This kind of discussion is why I am in support of a separate forum in which to discuss theological/doctrinal points. Admittedly, I approach these issues from a Reformed Protestant (extremely Reformed) stance. I expect disagreement here, if anywhere - :) (I get vehement disagreement from those I interact with every Sunday who are "Reformed Lite" Prots, but that's okay; I'm used to it) - and I welcome discussions of this nature.

Always in the love of our Lord Jesus Christ,

mary

[Hope 98]

You bet that anything that separates us from God is sin! I recall my old "pastor" standing up there in the pulpit one Sunday, preaching that "anything that is contrary to God's will or God's Word is a 'gate of hell' to us and we should avoid it as the death-dealer it is." Well, I thought at the time, and what are you to me, pal? You're requiring me to violate my marriage vows - with you. "Pastor" was a gaping, vast "gate of hell" to me, but he had his own "moral code" and didn't see it that way. Jerk. :mad: (There I go again, calling people names! :o :cool: )

All sin is a stench in God's nostrils and offensive to Him in ways we can't begin to imagine. But I believe literally and for all time that we can't sin beyond God's ability to forgive. Sincere repentance, given to a person by the action of the Holy Spirit in one who is converted, will always result in God's forgiveness. He's promised us that.



Always in the love of our Lord Jesus Christ,

mary

Agreed!!

[Anna Marta]

Taking my minutes "up" today to jump into this discussion.

I have no problem with the OT "Thou shalt nots" probably because based on my studies of the culture at that time, it was the ONLY way God could communicate with the people. It was "an eye for an eye" or a blood revenge culture. There simply was no grace and mercy available unless it came from the king or the judge at his whim. God understood this and when His kids were wandering alone in the desert there weren't many options to keep them safe and organized other than black/white swift justice.

I know it sounds pretty drastic to us today, and to some, mean spirited and unloving, but it was designed to keep them safe. Poor example, but case in point, daddy does not begin teaching to kids NOT to go out on the main highly trafficed road in front of their home by saying, it's not a good idea. He says "Do NOT go in the street!" and he means it because IF they go out in that street it will not only could by would mean DEATH to them! Is daddy mean? When they grow older he can say, remember we don't go in the street, but that is ONLY AFTER the fear of doing so because of the fear of what daddy will do to me has been established.

Am I making sense? The grace comes only after the awe and fear have been established or maybe someone has rescued the child with the risk or cost of their own life and welfare from the danger. Bonnhoeffer called the kind of grace "cheap grace" when there is no cost to it. We have to learn and appreciate the price paid for our escape or it means nothing.

I am adult and the rule and the consequence remains the same, I do not play or dawdle on the main road in traffic! Only now I know better than to do that because I understand the cost both to he who tries to rescue me or to he who ends up killing or harming me because I disobeyed the rule.

Hope this makes sense.

Love
Anna Marta

[yeshua'smags]

Well put Anna! I always thought of the Old Testament being the guardian of our physical selves and the New Testament being the guardian of our hearts.

If that even makes sense...it makes sense in my head....:D

[Anna Marta]

Makes purr-fect sense to me!

AM

[Reg]

Hi Anna,

You mirror much of my thinking on this. Basically, everyone in OT times did not have the Holy
Spirit and did not understand grace except for a few. Everyone else were basically carnal in their
outlook. They were spiritually immature and only understood DON’T. They were motivated more
by fear of punishment than anything else. An eye for an eye worked very well in regulating human
social conduct. Muslim countries are basically run this way. It is called the ministration of death.
Mercy is seldom if at all applied. Grace is completely foreign to them. They look on it as a sign of
weakness. So the only way to regulate society then that was completely carnal were with ways and
means that were completely physical. If was for this reason they had 613 statutes & judgements in the Book (Law) of Moses situated beside the Ark in the Holy of Holies in the temple.(At the heart of halakhah is the unchangeable 613 mitzvot that G-d gave to the Jewish people in the Torah (the first five books of the Bible). According to Judaism, the 613 mitzvot or "commandments" given in the written Torah, as well as their reasonings in the oral Torah, were only issued to the Jews and are therefore only binding upon them, having inherited the obligation from their ancestors. At the same time, at Mount Sinai, the Children of Israel were given the obligation to teach other nations the embedded laws. It is actually forbidden by the Torah for non-Jews on whom the Noahide Laws are still binding, to elevate their observance to the Torah's mitzvot as the Jews do.[4]

The Ten Commandments were the first installment of what is known as the Book of the Law, or the Book of the Covenant, or the Book of the Law of Moses. These were spoken by God from Mount Sinai to Moses . The people were very fearful and told Moses to hear what God had to say because they didn’t want to die. They asked him to come back speak his words to them (Exodus 20:18-19). Neh. 9:13: “You came down also on Mount Sinai, and spoke with them from heaven, and gave them just ordinances and true laws, good statutes and commandments.(all of it is from Gods mouth)14 You made known to them Your holy Sabbath, and commanded them precepts, statutes and laws, by the hand of Moses Your servant.” So we see Moses was the mediator for all that God spoke and commanded.

I King 2:3: “And keep the charge of the LORD your God: to walk in His ways, to keep His statutes, His commandments, His judgments, and His testimonies, as it is written in the Law of Moses.”

The people were to be obedient to all that God has said Exod.24:7: “ Then he took the Book of the Covenant and read in the hearing of the people. And they said, “All that the LORD has said we will do, and be obedient.” Deut.30:1 “if you obey the voice of the LORD your God, to keep His commandments and His statutes which are written in this Book of the Law, and if you turn to the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul.” Num.15:40: “and that you may remember and do all My commandments, and be holy for your God.” Notice all the laws were read for them to be obedient. This was in reference to all 613 Commandments if one did not do them they suffered the penalty.

Neh.10:29 “these joined with their brethren, their nobles, and entered into a curse and an oath to walk in God's Law, which was given by Moses the servant of God, and to observe and do all the commandments of the LORD our Lord, and His ordinances and His statutes.” We can see the law was a unit and they were to obey all, not just part.

In Joshua 1:8, “This book of the law shall not depart from your mouth, but you shall meditate on it day and night, so that you may be careful to do according to all that is written in it; for then you will make your way prosperous, and then you will have success.”

All 613 laws, included the Ten Commandments were to be obeyed. God told Moses to write all of His words down and put them in a book because these words were a covenant between God and Israel. These words of God included the Ten Commandments and all of the other laws given in the Torah (the Torah are the books from Genesis-Deuteronomy). So, not only were the Ten Commandments written in stone and kept in the Ark, but the same Ten Commandments along with all of the instruction concerning them (the other 603 laws) made up the Book of the Law which were placed in the side of the Ark (Deut.31:26) The first installment of the ten were not kept separate from the rest. http://www.letusreason.org/7thAd10.htm

They had little or no understanding of the spiritual except for the magicians and diviners of their day. Of course there is no grace and mercy from that source. Only deception.

God seemed like a cruel taskmaster in those times but it was the only way to deal with people in
OT times that they understood. Much of this world is still like that except for those who are
believers and the largely western democracies that have a measure of this understanding. However,
in our legal system there is little to no grace applied. It’s all done strictly according to the law.

P.S. Tristan, I appreciate your comments and agree wholeheatedly. The old expression, "You can get more bees with honey than with vinager" sure holds true.

[Anna Marta]

Reg,

I LOVE doing this with you! Thanks for the URL

Anna Marta

[Reg]

Reg,

I LOVE doing this with you! Thanks for the URL

Anna Marta
Me too!

Here's another link along those lines. It is excellent.

LAW AND GRACE

I like this one quote....."The N.C. is Gods intervention, the O.C. operates from mans ability. The O.C. could not save, it had no power, the N.C. saves absolutely."

http://www.letusreason.org/7thAd7.htm

[Doug64]

Maybe they are 10 'thou shalt nots' because that's the shorter list.

One thing I've noticed regarding judging is that God says in the verse that we are not to judge. But if we repeat what HE says is a sin, we have not judged - God has.
God does not say dancing is a sin - man does.
God says murder is a sin. If we say a murder has sinned, we aren't judging him. God has already done that.

Those laws still apply today; the difference being that through grace we are saved from the (permanent) penalty of death.

doug64

[Reg]

Excellent points Doug.

Here's another quote I like along those lines...

"The misunderstanding many Christians have in their thinking is that without the law we are lawless. Just because a law is obsolete and abolished does not mean we are without law! Likewise all the moral code in the Ten commandments and the moral Law of God in the Old Testament is brought over and re-instated under the new Covenant the Law of Christ. The moral law was there before the law was given to Moses and it continues afterwards."

[Tristan]

This was written in the link Reg posted:
Gal.5:4: "You who would be justified by the law (obedience and works) you have fallen away from grace." To be justified is to make one more obedient or more right with God. Whether one adds food or baptism or a day its all useless for a spiritual life. Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now trying to be made perfect by the flesh." I hope you don’t fall for any of this.

I like that. Its so simple. Its good to know we no longer need to keep the rituals of performance to realize God's love and acceptance and that we give to others. :D Tristan.