Which Religion is the True One?

[Reg]

Just read this. It's no wonder that we are in such a mess.

WHICH, IF ANY, OF THE WORLD'S
10,000 RELIGIONS IS THE "TRUE" ONE?


How many religions are there in the world from which to locate the "true" one?

According to David Barrett and team, there are 19 major world religious groupings in the world which are subdivided into a total of about 10,000 distinct religions. Of the latter, there were 270 religions and para-religions which had over a half million adherents in the year 2000 CE. Within Christianity, they have identified 34,000 separate groups (denominations, sects, individual unaffiliated churches, para-church groups, etc) in the world. "Over half of them are independent churches that are not interested in linking with the big denominations."

Even considering a single religion, Christianity, within a single country, there are often thousands of individual "Christian confessions and denominations." For example, Barrett et al. states that there are:
4,684 groups in the U.S.
3,364 in South Africa.
2,079 in Nigeria.
1,581 in Brazil.
1,327 in South-central Asia.

Among other English-speaking countries, there are:
828 groups in the UK.
469 in Canada.
267 in Australia
175 in New Zealand........................
http://www.religioustolerance.org/reltrue.htm

[outcast]

:eek:

Wow...

I'm stunned.

[Reg]

Just read this. It is excellent. It describles The True Church.

THE TRUE CHURCH


This wonderful classic J.C. Ryle article discusses the Church, Election, Salvation and church-going in a very brief but effective manner. We are pleased to make J.C.Ryle's classic article available.


I want you to belong to the one true Church: to the Church outside of which there is no salvation. I do not ask where you go on a Sunday; I only ask, "Do you belong to the one true Church?"

Where is this one true Church? What is this one true Church like? What are the marks by which this one true Church may be known? You may well ask such questions. Give me your attention, and I will provide you with some answers........................

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/robin.brace/1truechurch.htm

[Voyager]

Which Religion is the True One?

There is none. They are all just made up by men. All they do is turn people into religious, hateful bigots. Religion has caused more wars and more death than any other source in the history of mankind. Religion caused 9/11. Religion is why we are at war in Iraq right now. Religion is the reason why this forum was created.

God doesn't have a cell phone. People who say they are speaking for God are lying. People who follow them are gullible sheep, just like I used to be.

The human race would be much better off without religion.

:cool:

[Elisabeth]

The human race would be much better off without religion.



I saw a bumper sticker I liked outside of Wal-Mart. It had a cross and said "It's against my relationship to have a religion." :cool:

[Reg]

Surprising comments.

Have you actually read the link?

Maybe this will make it clearer for you.

The church viewed through the lens of “institution” is distorted. By contrast, the church seen through the lens of “organism” becomes clear.

There is a gathering climate in the church that will make it possible to return the ministry to where it belongs - God’s people. All of God’s people are called to ministry and they need to demand that their pastors equip them according to their giftedness. They must remember that all believers have direct access to God through Jesus Christ not just a select few in a hierarchy claiming God only speaks through them as ministers of Jesus Christ. The Reformation released us from a stultifying practice of going through a human mediator who pleaded our case before God. We are all priests in that we
minister directly before God.

In this past generation we have experienced six important changes that provide the basis to unleash the ministry of the whole body. These changes have revolutionalized our identity:

1) The Holy Spirit has been discovered as a means of direct encounter with the living God.

2) The Christian life is Christ in you.

3) The church is the living organism, the body of Christ.

4) All God’s people are ministers. “The Priesthood of all Believers”

5) An ecumenism of the Spirit transcends denominational loyalties.

6) Worship is the defining event of the church.

The Spirit’s work is related to the Scriptures. Transformation occurs by filling our minds with Bible content. The Holy Spirit’s job is to point to the written text and create a love for the Word of God. The only reliable source of truth is the Word of God. The Holy Spirit is called “The Spirit of Truth” in the Gospel of John in a few places. The Word is the objective standard by which we measure truth, and therefore it is the test of whether the claims of the Spirit’s work are valid. We are discovering that the Holy Spirit is the means of an encounter with the living God. Greg Ogden believes the Holy Spirit speaks directly to the church today and not soley through the avenue of the written Word of God. “I listen for the inner impulses and the life-generating thought that directs a proper focus for our worship experience.”

God also speaks to the church through gifted people who are channels for the immediacy of the Holy Spirit. We have to be careful however. The work of the Holy Spirit can be falsified and counterfeited. Therefore there must always be
two tests in place.

(a) The Word of God must always be the ultimate test of faith. Wherever the Spirit is separated for the Word and not submissive to the Word, it is a sign of cultic activity.

(b) The Spirit of God is the Spirit of the community of believers. The Spirit is directly available to and energizes all for service and witness to Jesus Christ.

We seek more than dry, institutional faith; we hunger for a God-reality at the center of our being. We are more than rational beings; we are also emotional and spiritual beings who need to be filled with God’s presence, to encounter the living God, and to know and be known. And by God’s grace, this relationship had become a transforming reality to many today.

3. The church is the living Organism, the Body of Christ.

Historically the church has been entrapped in institutionalism. It resembles a corporation with the pastor as head locked into a hierarchy structure.

As a separated, elevated class, the clergy have acted as if only they are able to enter the realm of things spiritual. The clergy as a distinct caste have supposedly received a special unction and calling that enables them to have a
closeness to God unattainable by ordinary church members. This theology of ministry has had more in common with the Old Testament priesthood than with New Testament priesthood.

What has caused this shift to a people-focused ministry in our day is primarily the rediscovery of small groups. Small groups commonly proliferate when the church is being renewed. It is the small group experience, grounded in appreciation of the early church, that has been the most visible feature of spiritual movement today.

4. All God’s People are Ministers. “The Priesthood of all Believers”

Laity too often perform tasks for the church, but are frequently not allowed to exercise ministry gifts to build up the body of Christ. As the reality of the church as an organism has been rediscovered, we are finding that in God’s
design all people in the church are gifted for ministry. Ministry is not to be equated with what professional leaders do; ministry has been given to all God’s people. So the pastor’s role is not to guard ministry jealously for himself, but instead to turn the spotlight on this multi gifted body. Christianity is essentially a lay movement.

We are discovering that ministry is not confined to the church building. We are beginning to see the church as a base of operations called to support and equip people to live out their Christian witness in the work environment. When we begin to have this view of ministry as what God performs through all persons, the doors are flung open to women.

5. An Ecumenism of the Spirit Transcends Denominational Loyalties

The upper echelon has gotten out of touch with its constituents. Its hierarchy does not exist to serve the grass roots; rather , it has become a bureaucratic end in itself, expecting the local church to carry out the wishes of those in
denominational headquarters. (WCG)

In contrast to organizational union, a sign of renewal in recent years has been an ecumenism of the Spirit that transcends denominational loyalties and has nothing to do with structures. Denominational distinctions become blurred when Christians connect with each other through the Spirit.

So an ecumenism of the Spirit shifts our focus of loyalty. We are loyal first to the movement of God’s Spirit wherever his work is being accomplished, and loyal only secondarily to structures.

Conclusion: Although this overview for the signs of renewal has been brief and selective, we get the impression that we live in a historical moment of enormous opportunity. This very foundation of the church of Jesus Christ is rumbling with renewal. God is raising up at the grass roots a Spirit-filled people who see themselves as ministers, spiritually gifted ecumenists who see
worship as a center.

From the book "THE NEW REFORMATION - Returning the Ministry to the People of God" - by GregOgden

[Voyager]

Are religion and religious differences to blame for war and conflict? Many war leaders have claimed to have God on their side, but should religion get the blame? A "War Audit" commissioned for the BBC programme "What the World Thinks of God" investigates the links between war and religion through the ages. It was carried out by researchers at the Department of Peace Studies at Bradford University.

George Bush was in little doubt about how the US-led coalition would bring down Saddam Hussein.

At a prayer meeting, shortly before the invasion of Iraq, he said: "Behind all of life and all of history, there's a dedication and purpose, set by the hand of a just and faithful God."

Behind all of life and all of history, there's a dedication and purpose, set by the hand of a just and faithful God.

But God's help was being invoked in Baghdad, too. Saddam Hussein told Iraqis: "Fight as God ordered you to do."

So does that makes last year's Iraq conflict a religious war?

The authors of the War Audit suggest that it was arguably a war driven by religion.

But, as they point out, the Pope and the US Catholic bishops, the Archbishop of Canterbury and many theologians around the world argued that it fell well short of the rigorous criteria for a "just" war.

President Bush and Saddam Hussein were only the most recent of a long line of political leaders who have drawn on religion to help them in battle or to justify a military campaign.

But the War Audit set out to identify conflicts that were more closely linked to religious belief than to political causes - that could most properly be called religious wars.

And that, it concluded, means going back to the wars of Islamic expansion beginning in the 7th Century, the Crusades starting in the 11th Century and the Reformation wars beginning in the 16th Century.

Here the wars were fought primarily because of religious differences.

Most are much more complex.

To some extent, the nature of a war is in the eye of the beholder.

Political grievances

But the authors of the War Audit say it is much more about his opposition to the political order in Arab countries and the presence of US forces in Muslim nations.

One of the most extraordinary armed campaigns I have witnessed was that of the Holy Spirit Movement in Uganda in the 1980s, the forerunner of the Lord's Resistance Army that remains locked in battle with the Ugandan army in northern Uganda today.

Alice Lakwena, the leader of the Holy Spirit Movement, claimed that God had commanded her to seize the Ugandan capital and I and other journalists found and interviewed her in a banana grove about 100 kilometres (60 miles) short of Kampala.

Superstition played a large part in the progress her ragtag band of followers had made.

They smeared themselves with a potion they were told would protect them against the army's bullets.

But this bizarre campaign has also fed on northern political grievances in Uganda.

And this is echoed down the ages.

Few truly religious wars

Why is religion a factor in war at all when all the main faiths have little time for violence and advocate peace?

The War Audit says that although armed conflicts may take on religious overtones, their genesis invariably lies in factors such as ethnicity, identity, power struggles, resources, inequality and oppression - and one factor is often exacerbated by another.

It is often suggested that there has been a sharp rise in religiously motivated conflict.

But the authors of the War Audit say there have been very few genuinely religious wars in the past century.

A Knight Templar from the time of the Crusades
The Israel-Arab wars from 1948 to the present day are often seen as wars over religion.

In fact, they say, they have been about nationalism, self-defence or the liberation of territory.

So why is religion a factor in war at all when all the main faiths have little time for violence and advocate peace?

Because, it is suggested, leaders use differences over faith as a way of sowing hatred and mobilising support for political wars.

As the American civil war leader Abraham Lincoln put it almost 150 years ago: "The will of God prevails."

"In great contests, each party claims to act in accordance with the will of God. Both may be, but one must be wrong."

"God cannot be for and against the same thing at the same time."

-----------------------------------------

SELECTED EXTRACTS FROM RELIGIOUS TEXTS:

'Then you must utterly destroy them; you shall make no covenant with them and show them no mercy' (Torah, Book of Deuteronomy 7:1-2)

'Thou shall not kill' (Torah, Book of Exodus 20:13)

'All who take the sword will perish by the sword' (New Testament, Matthew 5:43-44)

'Fight in the cause of God against those who fight you, but aggress not' (Koran 2:190)

'Whoever fights in the cause of God, then gets killed or attains victory, we will surely grant him a great recompense' (Koran 4:74)

'When all efforts to restore peace prove useless and no words avail, lawful is the flash of steel' (10th Sikh guru, Guru Gobind Singh)

'May your weapons be strong to drive away the attackers, may your arms be powerful enough to check the foes, let your army be glorious, not the evil-doer' (Hinduism's Rig Veda 1-39:2)

Osama Bin Laden portrays the campaign being waged by his terror network as a religious duty.

[Voyager]

I saw a bumper sticker I liked outside of Wal-Mart. It had a cross and said "It's against my relationship to have a religion." :cool:

LOL! I saw a sticker that said, "A man without religion is like a fish without a bicycle."

Well said. My life is so much better without religion. The entire world would be a much better place without it. Less war, less hatred, and less bigotry.

"Which Religion is the True One?" I says it's the one that leaves no casualties, no wounded soldiers, no bigotry, and no hatred. I have yet to find a religion that can claim any of that.

:cool:

[Anna Marta]

Thank you Reg,

I have read the article as well as your comments. It confirms our observations and "sense" that something incredibly important has been occurring in the "church" world over the last 20+ years. I have observed that all new births this transformation of the concept of "church" has been happening in fits and starts with many pendulum swings within the various church and para-church organizations as well as movements that have sprung up along the way.

People want to come together and share faith and love of God in Christ. There is a wonderful "something" that happens when believers come together in worship and praise and pray for each other. I love it! I love the old hymns and the new worship songs and the instrumental expressions of love and speakers who share their hearts as they teach the bible. I need these kinds of people in my life.

We have seen the same kinds of things happening in churches the european countries with which are familiar as well as in the area of the states where our family lives. The Holy Spirit is speaking to His children individually and they are sharing what He impresses on them in their groups - and it spreads... like sound waves reverberating around the world. These are excitning times!

This is why I am so thankful for you Reg and for all those who so willingly share their experiences.

Love
Anna Marta

[Reg]

Thanks Anna.

Voyager,

Let me repeat: "The church viewed through the lens of “institution” is distorted. By contrast, the church seen through the lens of “organism” becomes clear."

What you are looking at is the visible church/religion. What I and the article talks about is the invisible church guided by the Holy Spirit. It is not an organization but a living ORGANISM. The Spirit guides and directs those who have His Spirit. It is scattered thoughout the visible church and not to be confused with the visible church.

John 4:23
Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks.

I agree with what you wrote about what has occured in the name of Christianity and the religions of the world. However the invisible/spirit led church has not taken part in any of it. It follows the principles of Christianity and has been largely ignored by much of the Institutional Church.

Hope that further clears it up for you.

[Reg]

Here is what one reviewer of “The Body” by Charles Colson (Author), Ellen Santilli Vaughn
(Author) says:

The question was asked: ”If a given religion is the correct path, why have I not found it?”

Tim says:
You do ask many tough questions, and because we are human, I don't think that we will ever
have all the answers. But I do believe that we can find out enough to grasp the basic questions
that we have to know. You ask, "Why is it so hard?" Well, I believe we were created to be in
relationship, and most would agree with that as we look at that and realize how humanity works,
and especially when we think about why a God would create us. The only real answer is for
relationship. Now, to all those that have loved at any point in their life, you have to ask the
question, "Would I want that loved one to love me because of who I am, or would I rather force
them to love me and not worry about the work it takes to be someone that is easy to love?" The
answer that comes back is that I don't think anyone would honestly say that they would just want
to have the ability to force people to love them. That only works on a short term basis, when
were frustrated with someone who doesn't like us. Truly we all want people to love us for who
we are. With that in mind, I believe God is the same way. He will never force us to love him, but
has given each of us a choice to choose to love him. He showed us His love by sending His
own Son as a sacrifice for our sins. He didn't deserve the punishment, we did. Think about
standing on a road with me and a loved one of yours, preferably a son or daughter if you have
one, but any loved one will do, and let's say a car was coming that I didn't see. Your loved one
dives and pushes me out of the way and is killed in the process. A willing sacrifice of his or her
life for mine. As you come running up crying asking whether I'm alright, I push away your hand,
dust myself off and proclaim that I could have saved myself, I didn't need your loved one. What
would you do and feel with a person that trampled on the love and good graces given by your
loved one? But you ask, "Why can't I get to heaven, I'm a good person?" Well the question must
be asked," Have you ever lied? Have you ever looked at another person lustfully?" Jesus said, "If
you look at a woman lustfully in your heart, it's as if you've committed adultery." By yours and
my own confession, we are guilty.

****Balance snipped****

Let me add to this. Love is a choice. Without real freedom to make this choice there can be no
real love. To have a loving relationship with someone, you don’t need to be told what to do. You
will always do what is loving towards the other person. When it comes to God, we can apply the
same principle. However with God, it takes a lifetime to really get to know Him. He tells us what
He is like in His word.

John 15:13
Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends.

Really understanding this, we can begin to understand what the Love of God is like. How can we
resist such a love unless God is not drawing us to Him?

John 6:44 (NIV)

"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the
last day.

When we base all our thoughts and actions based on the Principle of Love, we would never
partake in the atrocities that have been perpetuated in the name of Christianity/Religion.

This is the basic principle that we need to apply to make this possible:

James 2:8
If you really keep the royal law found in Scripture, "Love your neighbor as yourself," you are
doing right.

A Royal Law supercedes all other forms of law. That is the one that Spirit led Christians follow.

[Voyager]

The above Scriptures sound great, but to follow the Bible you have to follow the whole Bible, not just the good parts. Here are some of the reasons that I don't want anything to do with organized religion anymore:

Deutoronomy 25:11-12:

When men strive together one with another, and the wife of the one draweth near for to deliver her husband out of the hand of him that smiteth him, and putteth forth her hand, and taketh him by the secrets:

Then thou shalt cut off her hand, thine eye shall not pity her.

Deutoronomy 23:2:

A bastard shall not enter into the congregation of the LORD; even to his tenth generation shall he not enter into the congregation of the LORD.

Deutoronomy 22:23-24:

If a damsel that is a virgin be betrothed unto an husband, and a man find her in the city, and lie with her;

Then ye shall bring them both out unto the gate of that city, and ye shall stone them with stones that they die; the damsel, because she cried not, being in the city; and the man, because he hath humbled his neighbour's wife: so thou shalt put away evil from among you.

Deutoronomy 20:18-21:

If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them:

Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place;

And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard.

And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear.

2 Chronicles 15:12-13:

They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman.

Exodus 21:15:

Whoever strikes his father or mother shall be put to death.

Leviticus 20:13:

If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives.

Leviticus 20:27:

A man or a woman who acts as a medium or fortuneteller shall be put to death by stoning; they have no one but themselves to blame for their death.

Deutoronomy 20:10-14:

When thou goest forth to war against thine enemies, and the LORD thy God hath delivered them into thine hands, and thou hast taken them captive,

And seest among the captives a beautiful woman, and hast a desire unto her, that thou wouldest have her to thy wife;

Then thou shalt bring her home to thine house, and she shall shave her head, and pare her nails;

And she shall put the raiment of her captivity from off her, and shall remain in thine house, and bewail her father and her mother a full month: and after that thou shalt go in unto her, and be her husband, and she shall be thy wife.

And it shall be, if thou have no delight in her, then thou shalt let her go whither she will; but thou shalt not sell her at all for money, thou shalt not make merchandise of her, because thou hast humbled her.

Deutoronomy 22:13-21:

If any man take a wife, and go in unto her, and hate her,

And give occasions of speech against her, and bring up an evil name upon her, and say, I took this woman, and when I came to her, I found her not a maid:

Then shall the father of the damsel, and her mother, take and bring forth the tokens of the damsel's virginity unto the elders of the city in the gate:

And the damsel's father shall say unto the elders, I gave my daughter unto this man to wife, and he hateth her;

And, lo, he hath given occasions of speech against her, saying, I found not thy daughter a maid; and yet these are the tokens of my daughter's virginity. And they shall spread the cloth before the elders of the city.

And the elders of that city shall take that man and chastise him;

And they shall amerce him in an hundred shekels of silver, and give them unto the father of the damsel, because he hath brought up an evil name upon a virgin of Israel: and she shall be his wife; he may not put her away all his days.

But if this thing be true, and the tokens of virginity be not found for the damsel:

Then they shall bring out the damsel to the door of her father's house, and the men of her city shall stone her with stones that she die: because she hath wrought folly in Israel, to play the whore in her father's house: so shalt thou put evil away from among you.

Leviticus 24:10-16:

One day a man who had an Israelite mother and an Egyptian father got into a fight with one of the Israelite men. During the fight, this son of an Israelite woman blasphemed the LORD's name. So the man was brought to Moses for judgment. His mother's name was Shelomith. She was the daughter of Dibri of the tribe of Dan. They put the man in custody until the LORD's will in the matter should become clear. Then the LORD said to Moses, "Take the blasphemer outside the camp, and tell all those who heard him to lay their hands on his head. Then let the entire community stone him to death. Say to the people of Israel: Those who blaspheme God will suffer the consequences of their guilt and be punished. Anyone who blasphemes the LORD's name must be stoned to death by the whole community of Israel. Any Israelite or foreigner among you who blasphemes the LORD's name will surely die.

Is anyone here willing to follow these commands from the Bible? Don't get mad at me, all I did was copy and paste from the Bible. These are not my words, they are direct quotes from the Bible.

:cool:

[Anna Marta]

Dear Voyager,

I understand where you are coming from. It is important to interpret the bible in context. You have chosen scriptures from the Torah which is the first 5 books of the bible. The books of the the law and the history of creation and the great men of faith are recorded in them.

The law ritual and dietetic laws were of immense importance during those historic periods for the protection and to sustain God's chosen keeping them separate from the cultures around them. Although these laws sound harsh and hateful to us, they were necessary to keep order in "that world." They are a reflection of just how powerful and just our God is. The punishments were meted out because there was no other way to hold order and for those people to learn that God was mighty and meant business!!! We no longer have to live under that law and it's requirements. (Paul explains this whole thing a lot better than me... in his letters especially to the church in Rome)

Jesus summed the entire law up by telling the pharisees the well known sentences - Love the Lord your God with all your heart, all your mind and all your strength. Love your neighbor just as much as you love yourself. He went to tell them that those 2 sentences are the foundation for all the law and the prophets.

Jesus was clear when he stated that he had not come to nullify or abolish the Law, he came to fulfill it... meaning that his substitutionary death fulfilled the requirement for justice of Almighty God. For those who believe in Jesus there is no death, even if we are put to death by a legal system or terrorism - we cannot die. It is my personal understanding that no one dies, we just wake up where we chose to be. IF we chose to reject God and His offer of love and eternal life because we did not want him in our life Voila! We get our wish for all eternity, separation from God. (I guess the word for that is hell, to be separated forever from all things loving and good and beautiful)

The word church is not in the bible. The word ekklesia means a gathering of people who are set apart. In terms of the Body of believers who love God, hear his voice and recognize the gifts and wisdom of each other as God uses them. When "man" in his own wisdom tried to organize, institutionalize and control the various gatherings - they really screwed things up! (and continue to do so) As I wrote some time ago, I haven't the foggiest idea how to do this gathering together correctly, but I can recognize when it is right and when it is wrong.

Good explanation of the word Ekklesia from a web site - URL below
What is the ekklesia?
The word 'church' in the New Testament is translated from the Greek word 'ekklesia' which comes from two words 'ek' meaning 'out' and 'kaleo' meaning to 'call.'
An ekklesia or 'calling out' was not just an assembly. The words agora and paneguris as well as heorte, koinon, thiasos, sunagoge and sunago can all mean an assembly.
The word ekklesia was a political term, not a religious term. Jesus was the King and the Bible used the term ekklesia for a good reason. In classical Greek "ekklesia" meant "an assembly of citizens summoned by the crier, the legislative assembly."1 In Israel the legislative assembly was originally composed of the elders of each family group.
Since, the authority of State in Israel was originally in the hands of the elders of the families, who were the princes of Israel, they did not usually gather together to overthrow the corruption of government since they were the government. But once they sought a king who appointed officers over them the need for an ekklesia steadily grew.
When the Greek city states found their governments had become too corrupt and oppressive, they would call for an ekklesia, an assembly outside the civil authority of the city. If enough people came out and refused to be under the civil authority, that government would collapse. Like Ghandi's strikes, marches for civil rights, Jesus' procession into Jerusalem the call for the people to stand against a corrupt oppressive government can be a powerful and non violent force to change the course of History.

The word Church was a poor choice in place of the Greek ekklesia but what men often mean unto evil God turns to good. The word Church which has its origin in lordship has come to mean exactly what Jesus intended from a certain point of view. This may not be so in the average dictionary or in the minds of most people but its evolved definition where it counts is strangely accurate.
The ekklesia of Jesus Christ was founded and established by Jesus Christ almost 2000 years ago. It was a government established by Jesus the Christ, Yahshua, the anointed King and appointed to look after His Kingdom. Jesus was recognized by the existing civil government, Pontius Pilate. Jesus and His ekklesia, the called out, were persecuted by the apostate church of that day, the usurping authority of the remnant of Israel. He was killed and rose again and is living upon His throne.

http://presys.com/~ekklesia/welcome.htm

Anna Marta

[hoipoloi]

I have read this thread with interest and, among all the complex words, there seems to be the following idea:

The one true church, outside which there is no salvation (and which interprets scripture correctly) is contrasted with the visible church, which perverts and misinterprets and exploits and spiritually abuses.

Now I know that this forum is committed to healing, and bringing the abused back into the church community having persuaded them not to lose their faith.

But people can be abused so much that, having given decades of trust to the church (visible or otherwise), that they are left with the impression that there may be no real true church: only a collection of expoitative, spiritually abusive organisations of this world.

Maybe anyone who thinks this is not welcome on this forum because they do not contribute to the spirit of the house rules.

I'm very close to this thinking.

Am l still welcome here? And should I change my opinions (at least publically) in order to remain?

Or maybe I shouldn't even be asking the question?

[Anna Marta]

Thank you for daring to ask the question!

Welcome here? I should say so!!! Are we not called to struggle with exactly these kinds of things?

Shalom
Anna Marta :D

[Willow]

Although it can be disturbing to have strongly differing opinions on religion all in one place... it can also be strengthening. How many of us had our voices muted in our former groups? How many of us are learning to use our voices and disagree civilly? How many of us are learning to be genuine in our statements, feelings and opinions? I know I am. It's very difficult for me to have an opinion, much less voice it when there are so many strong voices. Conflict terrifies me. It's equal to rejection to me... but I realize this is not a healthy idea. As an adult, I want to be able to debate and stand on my own feet in a debate without being rendered voiceless by fear or in some cases losing control of my temper. It's an ongoing problem for me... feeling like I don't have a voice.... am not an adult... am not as good as the others around me... am not truly a valid person...

[Voyager]

But people can be abused so much that, having given decades of trust to the church (visible or otherwise), that they are left with the impression that there may be no real true church: only a collection of expoitative, spiritually abusive organisations of this world.

Well said. My feelings exactly. I see no true church anywhere, and I have serious doubts that there will ever be one. However, I don't believe that I am blinded due to my abuse. On the contrary. The abuse opened my eyes to see through all of the lies and brainwashing that has gone on for centuries. Tradition tells us that there is a "true church", but common sense and observation tells me that there is not.

:cool:

[Voyager]

Although it can be disturbing to have strongly differing opinions on religion all in one place... it can also be strengthening. How many of us had our voices muted in our former groups? How many of us are learning to use our voices and disagree civilly? How many of us are learning to be genuine in our statements, feelings and opinions?

Good points. If we cannot discuss it here, then where can we? Spiritual abuse silenced our opinions... we were not allowed to think outside the box. While we are here healing, discussing our opinions about religion should be encouraged - regardless of whether they fit in with the mainstream traditional churchianity belief systems or not.

:cool:

[hoipoloi]

Many thanks for your responses -- much to think about.

So many preachers are power-seeking Sadducees, mere church politicians, that I wonder if any church official is of good conscience.

But my intense. ongoing anger could be blinding me.

Or, I could be seeing things as they really are, for the first time.

[Jerry]

Many thanks for your responses -- much to think about.

So many preachers are power-seeking Sadducees, mere church politicians, that I wonder if any church official is of good conscience.

But my intense. ongoing anger could be blinding me.

Or, I could be seeing things as they really are, for the first time.

I have been searching my soul for quite some time.....I conclude that everything would be all right,if everyone would do as I say !!! :eek: :D....Yes,,,,I'll be just fine now LOL :rolleyes:

[Reg]

Hi John,

Anna Marta gave you a good explanation. I seem to recall I wrote you something about this before. Simply, that God was dealing with a carnal nation, Israel.
They did not have the Holy Spirit available to them at that time. I wrote about the difference between Law & Grace previously here. In fact, I don't believe Grace is even mentioned in the OT.

Law & Grace (Part One)
http://www.christianrecovery.com/vb/showthread.php?p=19686#post19686

[Reg]

CORRECTION:

Grace is mentioned in the OT but not in the first 5 books of the Torah.

In fact it is not mentioned until Psalm 45:2.

Then it is mentioned several times in Proverbs but not in the context of the Grace of God.

It then is mentioned in Isaiah 26:10

This is a very interesting scripture:

Though grace is shown to the wicked, they do not learn righteousness; even in a land of uprightness they go on doing evil and regard not the majesty of the LORD.

I remember being in Ammon, Jordan and seeing some men without a hand. I found out that that was their punishment for stealing. It was a good deterent.
When dealing with carnal people it seems that an eye for an eye principle works. They do not seem to grasp the principle of Grace.

The last place it is mentioned in the OT is Zechariah 12:10

[ Mourning for the One They Pierced ] "And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication. They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son.

That was a prophecy about the time Grace would be available through the Holy Spirit.

[Anna Marta]

It's very difficult for me to have an opinion, much less voice it when there are so many strong voices. Conflict terrifies me. It's equal to rejection to me... but I realize this is not a healthy idea. As an adult, I want to be able to debate and stand on my own feet in a debate without being rendered voiceless by fear or in some cases losing control of my temper. It's an ongoing problem for me... feeling like I don't have a voice.... am not an adult... am not as good as the others around me... am not truly a valid person...

Willow,

You are speaking as if from "my heart". Being terrified of conflict and rendered voiceless by those who I have looked at as "better/more powerful or worthy than me" has been an ongoing theme in my life. So often I was afraid of speaking up for fear of rejection by those persons. I walked away suffering as only passively responsive people do - furious at myself for not saying what I wanted to say, or even worse, what I believed should have been said.

Finding "my voice" as you call it, seems to be a life long struggle for many of us. Thank God for His support as we struggle.

You Willow are a truly valid person and you have a wise and wonderful voice that many of us respect.

Love
Anna Marta

[Willow]

Thanks Anna... HUGS
I seem to do so much better expressing myself in writing. This place has helped tremendously. Verbally... I"m miles behind though. I have some friends that help me. I went camping this weekend. ONe of my friends asked me if I'm autistic. I was fascinated that he asked that, because I"ve often wondered the same thing. hmmmm

[Anna Marta]

Thanks Anna... HUGS
I seem to do so much better expressing myself in writing. This place has helped tremendously. Verbally... I"m miles behind though. I have some friends that help me. I went camping this weekend. ONe of my friends asked me if I'm autistic. I was fascinated that he asked that, because I"ve often wondered the same thing. hmmmm

Wow Willow,

That seems like something to look into. Wouldn't it be a kicker if all these years you suffered with self-esteem issues, when in fact, there was a good reason for your "up close and personal" struggles?

I'm not autistic I've been just plain scared of people in authority! :o It has taken me years and years to comprehend that such a fear has nothing to do with one's intelligence. I thought it was because I wasn't smart enough or good enough, then when I went for counseling and more further education I discovered I'm not nearly a dumb as I thought I was!

You are one of the most succinct writers, deepest thinkers who has a unique ability to see into people on the forum. The above would make sense for why you may be better with the written word.

Anna Marta

[Willow]

Well... it's just a thought in passing. However.... I might mention it to my doctor some day and see what he/she says.

[Ron]

I see " church" only as a structure, where doctrines, or religions, of man have been changed so much, down through the ages, to this present day, that society has gotten away from spirituality. Spitituality, is not a religion, it is a way of life. Jesus said, upon you I will build my church.
I often wonder, why do so many people get hung up on the word religion.
Every church has its own definition of Religion, with each thinking they have the only true one. of course, there are different thoughts on spirituality as well.

[Voyager]

The problem that many people have with religions (including myself) is that they are all man-made. Everything we have ever learned about God was written in books by men who said they were speaking for God. Personally, I no longer believe that any man could speak for God after seeing how human beings use religion to manipulate people. Therefore I don't aspire to any religion anymore.

I guess I am considered an Agnostic, which means that I do not deny the existence of God; rather, I have concluded that the truth about God remains unknown. I am perfectly content believing this way. It is actually much less confusing than embracing one or more of the thousands of man-made religions that are floating around out there.

:cool:

[yeshua'smags]

Blah blah blah blah blah...same crap, different day! Would you feel better, Voyager, if we told you that you are right and that you win, we're converted?!! No more silly God rules! Live the way you want, God will love you anyway, and if He doesn't, well forget Him! It's all just Man-made! There is no absolute truth! The Bible can't be trusted, eventhough it is God-breathed. You are absolutely right. Because you have been hurt and things haven't gone the way you think they should, well it just must all be BS! I mean look at the Hippie movement...that worked so well for them!:rolleyes: I mean gosh, you have like what, 6 whole verses to back that up?

While I am in complete agreement that RELIGION is completely useless and should die, God is not! The Bible is NOT!
The things you spew on here every time someone tries to be the least bit spiritually helpful are so offensive and maddening, yet everyone lets you get away with it.
I imagine you sitting there with your arms folded, pouting like a 4 year old, thinking up your "intellectual" condescending answers, and it would make me laugh if it weren't so frustrating.

What is your point? Why, if you are so enlightened, is it not ok for us to believe the way that we do? Why can't you just let us discuss what we need to discuss and let it go? That is what we have to do with you. It's ok for you to pontificate, no matter how misguided, or wrong; God forbid we question you. We all know what you are going to say before you say it, we know what you think....you tell us ALL the time. So what say you just LET IT GO?
I am so happy that you have finally settled into a label you can feel comfortable with. I'm glad that Agnostic fits you. How about you go to an agnostic forum and stop trying to convince us you are right, and yours is the only path that has any intelligence?

[Voyager]

Blah blah blah blah blah...same crap, different day! Would you feel better, Voyager, if we told you that you are right and that you win, we're converted?!! No more silly God rules! Live the way you want, God will love you anyway, and if He doesn't, well forget Him! It's all just Man-made! There is no absolute truth! The Bible can't be trusted, eventhough it is God-breathed. You are absolutely right. Because you have been hurt and things haven't gone the way you think they should, well it just must all be BS! I mean look at the Hippie movement...that worked so well for them!:rolleyes: I mean gosh, you have like what, 6 whole verses to back that up?

While I am in complete agreement that RELIGION is completely useless and should die, God is not! The Bible is NOT!
The things you spew on here every time someone tries to be the least bit spiritually helpful are so offensive and maddening, yet everyone lets you get away with it.
I imagine you sitting there with your arms folded, pouting like a 4 year old, thinking up your "intellectual" condescending answers, and it would make me laugh if it weren't so frustrating.

What is your point? Why, if you are so enlightened, is it not ok for us to believe the way that we do? Why can't you just let us discuss what we need to discuss and let it go? That is what we have to do with you. It's ok for you to pontificate, no matter how misguided, or wrong; God forbid we question you. We all know what you are going to say before you say it, we know what you think....you tell us ALL the time. So what say you just LET IT GO?
I am so happy that you have finally settled into a label you can feel comfortable with. I'm glad that Agnostic fits you. How about you go to an agnostic forum and stop trying to convince us you are right, and yours is the only path that has any intelligence?

You are completely out of line. All I did was make a statement on what I believe. Your reply is full of anger, hostility, and rage. How dare you attack my beliefs like this? Why don't you state your own beliefs instead of attacking mine? If you don't like the way I believe, then don't read my posts. I am not going to change my beliefs for you or anyone else - regardless of how much you shame me for them. Your reply is only a confirmation that people can leave spiritual abuse, but it doesn't necessarily leave them.

Maybe it's time for the monthly forum meltdown again? All of the fundies can get out their Bible verses and start slapping the people who don't believe the way they do. While you are busy trying to hit anything that moves, I'll be spending my time on a different forum that doesn't allow shaming, nasty posts like the one above.

:cool:

[Willow]

no meltdown this time.
triggers happen.
disagreement is not equal to rejection.
opposing viewpoints are not equal to hate.

[Voyager]

disagreement is not equal to rejection.


I agree with you Willow. I do not reject people who disagree with me, and I do not try to manipulate people to agree with me. However, the above reply told me to go and join some Agnostic forum, and said all kinds of nasty things about me. It is full of rejection based on what I believe (or in this case, what I don't believe). So, unfortunately, in this case disagreement is equal to rejection.

Isn't it great what religion has done for the human race? NOT! I need religion like I need a hole in my head.

The reason I come to this forum is because I was spiritually abused, not because I want to be converted to a specific religion. If we cannot get along without having to force our religious beliefs on others, we may as well go back to our spiritually abusive churches.

:(

[yeshua'smags]

While you are busy trying to hit anything that moves, I'll be spending my time on a different forum that doesn't allow shaming, nasty posts like the one above.

:cool:

Yay.

[Elisabeth]

What's all this? :mad: Yay leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

[yeshua'smags]

What's all this? :mad: Yay leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

It was meant sarcastically.

[hoipoloi]

Yay.


Maggie, let's all be supportive -- we are all in the same boat.

:(

[Anna Marta]

I agree with you Willow. I do not reject people who disagree with me, and I do not try to manipulate people to agree with me. However, the above reply told me to go and join some Agnostic forum, and said all kinds of nasty things about me. It is full of rejection based on what I believe (or in this case, what I don't believe). So, unfortunately, in this case disagreement is equal to rejection.

Isn't it great what religion has done for the human race? NOT! I need religion like I need a hole in my head.

The reason I come to this forum is because I was spiritually abused, not because I want to be converted to a specific religion. If we cannot get along without having to force our religious beliefs on others, we may as well go back to our spiritually abusive churches.

:(

Dear Voyager,

Au contraire to the first sentence above.

YM's is an angry response, to your present and past postings. Voyager, you are adept at "blame shifting" and "deflecting" attention away from your own communication style by pointing out another's perceived rejection of you. However, using terms like "...fundies getting out their bibles and slapping people..." are most definitely perceived as rejection by those who hold the bible in high regard as a source of consolation and hope.

In essence, what YM's was trying to tell you is to stop pounding away at those who have not lost their faith in God, in the bible as His Word or in a gathering of people in a church-like setting.

"Man made can be God breathed;" something can be created and done under the guidance and leadership of the Holy Spirit by those who act in obedience to Him and hear His voice- even though it will not be perfect...

Mercy and Grace are God's way of saying He knows we're gonna screw things up royally, but that we can always begin again with a clean slate when we recognize what we did wrong, learn from it and start over in a new direction.

We are all looking for God and that grace and mercy in our lives right now Voyager. But it is only as we practice it in our own lives that we can hope to receive it from others, and never never will we receive what we most desire from another human being - perfect love and acceptance.

You are a deep thinker and a passionate feeler, and like many of us on the forum, you are also deeply hurt, disappointed and angry. It appears that you have chosen to direct your anger at God and anyone who has retained their basic faith in Him and the bible. That anger, as explained by the Ryan's in their writings and meditations, is part and parcel of the recovery process.

We are all free to post where and when we will about what we choose, but we need to remember that what we post shows the condition of our hearts... "out of the mouth the heart speaks."

What we hope to receive is both acceptance AND honesty. With this comes the understanding that where I am now is not necessarily where I want to be or wish I was. And that's a good thing, in the long run... without honesty from others I don't know how I come across and am unable to change and grow... without acceptance I am unable to hear and receive the friendship and love I so dearly want.

Shalom,
Anna Marta

[hoipoloi]

I cannot believe what has happened here!

This is exactly what a spiritual abusive church does. Cannot any of you see this? Has any of you actually been spiritually abused so that you can empathise? Or are you indulging in revenge by proxy?

And the leaders of the dogs of war will get away with it.

Absolutely unbelievable!!

My sheer disgust at this crucifixion is beyond words.

I appeal to you all: consider the story of the Passion: are you with the crucifiers or are you with the crucified.

:(:mad:

[hoipoloi]

I'm outta here.

[Willow]

The problem that many people have with religions (including myself) is that they are all man-made. Everything we have ever learned about God was written in books by men who said they were speaking for God. Personally, I no longer believe that any man could speak for God after seeing how human beings use religion to manipulate people. Therefore I don't aspire to any religion anymore.

I guess I am considered an Agnostic, which means that I do not deny the existence of God; rather, I have concluded that the truth about God remains unknown. I am perfectly content believing this way. It is actually much less confusing than embracing one or more of the thousands of man-made religions that are floating around out there.


Anna... I know you are talking to Voyager... but I just don't see any attack in this particular post. He's speaking in his own experience and conclusions he's come to. I understand in the past he's been aggressive when he's attacked, but does that mean all his posts are filtered through every other post he's ever done? Maybe if we try to address each post independently of past posts it would help significantly.

It's interesting that this thread was started by an article from a site called religious tolerance.

[Willow]

Dear Voyager,

However, using terms like "...fundies getting out their bibles and slapping people..." are most definitely perceived as rejection by those who hold the bible in high regard as a source of consolation and hope.

This is different than a statement directed at someone personally. I still see this as voicing strong feelings at a generalized group of people and don't take it personally. It would be akin to someone saying... all those spiritually abused people are just whiners. I wouldn't take it personally... but I would open dialogue with someone who said it. If they direct the offending statement at me personally is when I take offence because at that moment it is directed at me.

[Reg]

WOW!

How did we ever get to this point? I see the accuser at work here. Where is the love of God in this? Are we speaking the truth in Love?

My main purpose in starting this thread is to point out that there is a body of believers that exist as Christians. It is Spiritual in nature. It is the Invisible Church that is in the visible Christian church. We need to make that distinction. That is what a lot of people still don't get.

Jesus said:

Matthew 16:18
And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it.

That is the church I am relating to. It is the True Church. The Church that Jesus Christ is building. It exists today. Many of us here are a part of that Church.

[jimsmuse]

Sometimes, when you just come and go from this site and "read only" it can get very frustrating.

I have been here for two years now and I haven't really posted much nor have I started any threads save for one when I ventured into my spiritual abuse......it's tricky to post here.

You lay yourself open and offer your heart or whatever wisdom God has granted you for the moment and depending on a host of variables you can come away feeling like gee, you don't even matter in cyberspace!!

Then, something "triggers" a response on a topic you are passionate about to the core and depending on who you are it is an attack!

There are some even tempered humans on this forum and there a some that just explode sometimes! And it can be anyone at any given time.......

Peace at any cost is not Peace :(

[ninaspirit]

we see the invisible church as a spiritual church,,,not the church where people go into a building - we mean the one that comes from our heart and goes to God and relates to others in a spiritual way that builds each other up. a lot of times we dont even realize we are doing it. we just need to ask our self how we can love a person.

just like there is a good spirit there can also be an evil spirit - that helps us decide what is the good spiritual church. when we know who God is to us we can love others as Jesus loved - that is the invisible church. what others do or say does not change that. it has nothing to do with meeting in a building or being part of a certain group.

the invisible church is there - it is as big as God. and it is filled with love.

people get God mixed up with what is culture or what a few people have said is the right way - that is where rules and control come in --- in are culture people will say - what do we as menonite christians believe about "whatever"? in other words what rules did the mennonite culture give us (with how they understand the Bible) so our faith becomes more christian. for us that makes it become religion. when a group of menonites think people have to follow their rules to the T it becomes cult. some one told us once a mennonite always a mennonite. some choose to make those rules part of their faith but are ok if others dont. for us we dont believe that way any more. we are christian first. period. mennonite is what a man named menno simons decided what was right or was not right in the church - and people followed him and made his ideas their culture and religon. not every thing in a culture is bad - and not all the rules are bad - just dont put mans ideas as if they are from God.

well that is just how it is for us.

[Willow]

the invisible church is there - it is as big as God. and it is filled with love.

Excellent Ninas. I think this also is what Reg is saying.

[Elisabeth]

Yeah, I don't think anyone needs to put someone down on this forum when someone else believes differently about God or the Bible than they do. I myself believe in God, believe that Christ died for my sins, believe that the Bible is God's holy word, and that all scripture is God breathed, but I do know that not everyone believes as I do. I have also seen the Bible misused terribly to bang people over the head with. And I think that in this forum we have to concentrate on healing from what we have escaped from, and lift each other up.

[Anna Marta]

Friends,

I'm going to lay low for awhile. :rolleyes:

If anyone wants to contact me you can send an e mail to "grammy@garhovd.net"

Anna Marta