admitting the problem is the first step

[outcast]

I was talking yesterday to another former cult member who left years before I did and she had brought up another lady who was still having difficulty breaking free from some of the cult's mindsets. Namely, the one that said if you spoke about the cult pastor in a negative way God would curse you b/c he was supposedly a prophet of God. :rolleyes:

I shared with her that I had realized over this last year that it seemed as though the ones who had left our cult fell into 2 categories. The first category was full of those who felt that the cult was not really a bad place - just not the church for them and that the pastors there were really okay people called by God to still minister to the masses. *vomit*

The second category (which I ascribe to), realizes the church is a cult, calls it a cult, and therefore has tried to follow the prescribed cult recovery steps in order to heal from the experience.

In my experience it seems as though unless someone falls into the second category, he/she doesn't really heal from the cult's unhealthy mindsets.

I would liken it to the stages of alcoholism in the sense that just like one has to admit he/she is an alcoholic to get help - one has to admit he/she belonged to a cult to get help too.

I suppose the reason people do not admit their church was a cult or even spiritually abusive is b/c of the stigma attached to such ideas.

For me, I find it is best if I am very up front and bold about it. If I am talking to someone who is trying to get to know me as a friend, there will be a point in time when I will tell him/her that I used to be in a faith based cult. I believe that although that fact doesn't define me as a person it is an integral part of my life at present.

People I am currently close to are also used to my transparency about this fact and they really don't think anything about it now. Most of them used to laugh nervously when I would say it, but b/c they see my motives for talking about it are to heal, they now discuss it openly with me as well.

My purpose in posting this topic is just to make all of us think about where we are in the process. I don't mean to try to make myself sound important or better than those I know who won't or don't admit to cultism. Really, I can understand where they are coming from b/c it took me awhile to face the fact myself.

I also realize that not every SA church is a cult, and that is to be considered in the healing process as well. :)

Outcast

[Anna Marta]

I also realize that not every SA church is a cult, and that is to be considered in the healing process as well.

That is a true statement. But I wonder if the SA church/leaders exhibit the same kinds of behaviors? Are there such things as "pre" cults?

Anna Marta :confused:

[Elisabeth]

I also realize that not every SA church is a cult, and that is to be considered in the healing process as well.

That is a true statement. But I wonder if the SA church/leaders exhibit the same kinds of behaviors? Are there such things as "pre" cults?

Anna Marta :confused:

I would think that if they exhibit some of the same behaviors, but maybe aren't to the point of actually being a cult, I would say they have cultish tendencies. Perhaps that has to be considered in the healing process as well. Just realize that an SA church / leader is not reflecting Christ even though they might claim to! :eek:

[outcast]

I would think that if they exhibit some of the same behaviors, but maybe aren't to the point of actually being a cult, I would say they have cultish tendencies. Perhaps that has to be considered in the healing process as well. Just realize that an SA church / leader is not reflecting Christ even though they might claim to! :eek:

I agree with Elisabeth here. The church we attended after leaving the cult is not one I would think was a cult itself, but I do think it has cultish tendencies. I think that cult leaders start out as being SA in the beginning and as their abusive tendencies get worse they tend to foster a cultish environment to cover up what they are doing. So, I guess I agree with Anna as well that maybe they are pre-cultish.

Often, I think the sad difference is that the pre-cultish leaders are not too late to reach - if they still hold their desire to please God above desire for power and control.

Hubby and I had some friends who are examples of this case in point. They were SA at one point as youth pastors, but b/c they were still soft towards God's conviction and they did not desire power over godliness, they began to legitimately change their ways and are much better now.

Of course, what makes this situation a sad one is when pre-cultish leaders refuse to hear the truth b/c of pride and other reasons. Then it is unusual to see them turn later on b/c they harden their hearts. :(

[hoipoloi]

I wonder what we mean by a "cult"?

Usually a church regards any other church which has a different theology as cultish, or pre-cult, or cult, IMHO.

It's all very subjective.

My view, probably a minority one, is that the behaviour of the church leaders tells us about cultishness -- and (surprise surprise) this turns out to be the behaviour of the leaders of a SA church.

The question is: where are the boundary lines between cultish, pre-cult, cult?

I feel that this is not an acedemic question: if we say that a SA church may not be cultish, then we are letting that church off the hook -- and this is an excuse for no action to be taken.

The church that subjected me to spiritual abuse had changed and become a Cult, no question, spade a spade, end of!

SA leaders need to repent before a church can move on. But the leaders have power; they do not see the reason to repent. The congregation usually supports the leaders because there is nobody else for the postion. There is the vicious circle which will never resolve until a true change of ethos and leadership happens in such a church.

This, no doubt, is my ongoing anger speaking -- but that does not mean that it is untrue!

Again, in my opinion.

[Reg]

I wonder what we mean by a "cult"?

Usually a church regards any other church which has a different theology as cultish, or pre-cult, or cult, IMHO.

snip
Great question. That word means different things to different people. I got this from http://www.religioustolerance.org/cults.htm

MEANINGS OF THE WORD - “CULT”

Positive Meaning:

Theological usage: Oxford English Dictionary defined "cult" as: “worship; reverential homage
rendered to a divine being or beings" “a particular form or system of religious worship; especially
in reference to its external rites and ceremonies" devotion or homage to a particular person or
thing."

This is the historical meaning of the word, but is rarely today heard outside of religious circles. A
reference to the "Cult of Mary" appeared in a newspaper report on the Pope's 1999 visit to the
Americas. It simply means that the Pope devotes special attention to the Virgin Mary.

Cultural usage: The word is often associated with cult films, cult bands, or cult TV programs.
Here, the term "cult" refers to a small but devoted following of a movie, entertainment group or
television program. Avid supporters of Star Trek may be referred to as devoted cultists.

Neutral Meanings:

Sociological usage: A small religious group that exists in a state of tension with the
predominant religion. Hinduism might be considered a cult in North America; Christianity might
be considered a cult in India.

Additional sociological usage: An innovative, fervent religious group, as contrasted with more
established and conventional sects and denominations.
The Observer: An English newspaper seemed to use the term to refer to any small religious
group, no matter what its age or teachings.

General religious usage: A small, recently created, religious organization which is often headed
by a single charismatic leader and is viewed as an spiritually innovative group. A cult in this
sense may simply be a new religious movement on its way to becoming a denomination. The
Christian religion, as it existed in 30 CE might be considered a cult involving one leader and 12
or 70 devoted disciples as followers. The Mormon denomination was started in the 19th century
by Joseph Smith and a few followers; it met this definition of "cult" but has since grown to
become an established denomination of about 15 million members.

Negative Meanings:

Evangelical Christians and Counter-Cult Movement (CCM) usage: They define a cult as any
religious group which accepts most but not all of the key historical Christian doctrines (e.g. the
divinity of Jesus, virgin birth, the Trinity, salvation by faith, not works, etc.). The implication is
that the cult's theology is invalid; they teach heresy. Under this definition, The Church of Jesus
Christ of Latter-day Saints (the Mormons), Unification Church, Jehovah's Witnesses, and many
others would be cults. But the CCM would not classify Wicca as such, because it is not
associated with Christianity. The earliest use of this meaning of the word "Cult" is believed to be
a 1938 book "The Chaos of the Cults" by J.K. VanBaalen. On the other hand, new religious
groups such as the Mormons, Unification Church and Jehovah's Witnesses generally regard
themselves to be the true Christian church. They view all other denominations as being in error.
Thus, one group's true church is another group's cult. One group's heresy is the other group's
orthodoxy.

Fundamentalist Christian usage: Some Fundamentalists would accept the Evangelical
definition of cult defined above. Others brand any religious group which deviates from historical
Protestant Christian beliefs as a cult. This definition would include the LDS Church, Wicca,
mainline and liberal Christian denominations, Islam, Hinduism, and all of the other religions of
the world. The vast majority of humanity would belong to cults, by this definition.

Anti-cult movement usage: The anti-cult movement (ACM) attempts to raise public
consciousness about what they see as dangerous and authoritarian mind control cults and
doomsday cults. Most do not care about the faith group's theology. They target only what they see
as deceptive practices, and dangerous psychological pressure techniques, such as brainwashing.
The ACM appears to hold opinions about the effectiveness of brainwashing that are not shared
by the mental-health community generally. They see mind control/doomsday cults as a
widespread social problem.

Very negative meaning:

Popular, media usage: A cult is considered a small, evil religious group, often with a single
charismatic leader, that engages in brainwashing and other mind control techniques, believes that
the end of the world is imminent, and collects large amounts of weaponry in preparation for a
massive war. The earliest use of this meaning of the word is believed to have been in a 1965
book by Walter Martin "The Kingdom of the Cults"

We have seen "cult" used to refer to Evangelical denominations, the Roman Catholic Church,
Unification Church, Church of Scientology, United Church of Christ, The Church of Jesus Christ
of Latter-day Saints, Wiccans, other Neopagans and many other faith groups. The term is
essentially meaningless.

[outcast]

I wonder what we mean by a "cult"?

Usually a church regards any other church which has a different theology as cultish, or pre-cult, or cult, IMHO.

It's all very subjective.

My view, probably a minority one, is that the behaviour of the church leaders tells us about cultishness -- and (surprise surprise) this turns out to be the behaviour of the leaders of a SA church.

The question is: where are the boundary lines between cultish, pre-cult, cult?

I feel that this is not an acedemic question: if we say that a SA church may not be cultish, then we are letting that church off the hook -- and this is an excuse for no action to be taken.

The church that subjected me to spiritual abuse had changed and become a Cult, no question, spade a spade, end of!

SA leaders need to repent before a church can move on. But the leaders have power; they do not see the reason to repent. The congregation usually supports the leaders because there is nobody else for the postion. There is the vicious circle which will never resolve until a true change of ethos and leadership happens in such a church.

This, no doubt, is my ongoing anger speaking -- but that does not mean that it is untrue!

Again, in my opinion.

Good question HP. :) I remember back when I was in the cult I would get frustrated with those who told me I was in one b/c they never expounded on what a cult actually was. When I talk about a cult now, I have a particular definition in mind based on the research I've done since leaving. Many sources agree on the tenets of a cult when it concerns SA. The following excerpt comes from the website found at:

http://www.cultclinic.org/qa3.html



CULT, CULTIC GROUP RELIGION

1) Deceit in recruitment
2) Totalitarian
3) Destroys the family unit
4) Isolates its members
5) Keeps non-believers out (fostering an us v. them mentality)
6) Limits development of individual
7) Exploits and manipulates its members with mind control techniques
8) Commitment is encouraged during recruitment process
9) Criticism is met with threats of legal action (or promises of curses from God)
10) Leader and follower consider leader to be above reproach
11) Questioning the leader, or basic tenets, is not allowed

I do agree with many of the things you point out here about SA and cultishness. I hope I have helped to clarify my own meaning of a cult set out in the opening post.

[hoipoloi]

Great postings, Reg and Outcast, and answers many of my questions.

And they are all relevant to the original idea of a church admitting that it has a problem of being a cult, and then starting a healing ministry.

Once again, many thanks for the clarifications. :):)

[SpinningHead]

I think a cult..or cultish behavior is anyone who tries to and demands to think for me...and I had better go along with it. :(

[Reg]

Here's another good read to understand the meaning of this word.

Cult
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cult

[Reg]

Here is a better one that most of us can relate to:

User:Andries/drafts/cult
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Andries/drafts/cult

[outcast]

Here is a better one that most of us can relate to:

User:Andries/drafts/cult
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Andries/drafts/cult

Most excellent Reg. Very accurate indeed. :D

[Elisabeth]

I think a cult..or cultish behavior is anyone who tries to and demands to think for me...and I had better go along with it. :(

I know the feeling, SH. I know the feeling. And if you don't go along with it, both the leaders and the others in the "church" put you on the sidelines. :mad:

[ex-shep]

As I got into 12 step recovery in 1986, I quickly learned how I was powerless over my previous groups and how my life was unmanageable.

It did not take me long to see the insanity. This is why I decided to write a big book recovering from spiritual abuse.

I can relate to the maddening why some members get it and others remain in denial.

For several years I would bang my head against the wall, "How come I am out and Tammy is still in her cultic la la land?" A year later, I got a woman out of the bible school before she got in. We have been good friends for years. We went out for coffee. By the end of the evening, she was not going back. Go figure.

I was at an AA meeting last Saturday. The person who spoke twice went back out drinking before he finally got it. Most alcoholics did not get it.

Tammy and I, curiously enough having open discussions. I have never dreamed that such exchanges would be possible.

Recovery is an interesting journey where some get it and some do not. I just let go and let God years ago.

[Willow]

I wish you would finish that book and publish it!!!! It's gonna be a hit!!!!

[ex-shep]

I wish you would finish that book and publish it!!!! It's gonna be a hit!!!!

I hope not. Sado masochism is not my deal. :p

[Willow]

OK... so we're back to the stand up comedy routine then :p

[ex-shep]

OK... so we're back to the stand up comedy routine then :p


The things I put in my resume, I will tell you. ;)