Our Church Preparing to Incorporate

[Reg]

I just got this email from our church. I starting reading it and got those bad feelings again.

As you are aware we have been in the process of preparing to incorporate BBC for the past few years. Here is a link to our website that will connect you to a proposed BBC Constitution document that will be introduced at the Congregational Meeting on June 24. We will be inviting feedback over the summer months with a view to approving a final version at the Fall Congregational meeting. We wanted you as a member to receive a copy as early as possible and will look forward to interaction with you about the document.



I have no experience in these matters but somehow don't like it. Does anyone have any experience in this. :confused:

What I read here gives me the willies. :(
http://hushmoney.org/

[mary]

I just got this email from our church. I starting reading it and got those bad feelings again.

As you are aware we have been in the process of preparing to incorporate BBC for the past few years. Here is a link to our website that will connect you to a proposed BBC Constitution document that will be introduced at the Congregational Meeting on June 24. We will be inviting feedback over the summer months with a view to approving a final version at the Fall Congregational meeting. We wanted you as a member to receive a copy as early as possible and will look forward to interaction with you about the document.



I have no experience in these matters but somehow don't like it. Does anyone have any experience in this. :confused:

What I read here gives me the willies. :(
http://hushmoney.org/

I understand, Reg...

Here's something you might be interested in; I googled church incorporation in Canada and came up with this: http://www.crcna.org/pages/model_articles_canada.cfm

It's basically the Christian Reformed Churches' boilerplate incorporation documents for "doing business as a church" in Canada.

I also went to www.hushmoney.org (http://www.hushmoney.org). Yes, the idea of government interfering with churches is creepy, but here in the States, we have to do it.

I didn't post this in its own thread because I don't want to attract a lot of attention to it, but the good news right now is that we have a baby church coming here! Presbytery decided last Saturday that they will start a mission congregation here and so now, we have to plan for possible incorporation as a 501(c)(3) entity here in MI. I'm familiar with the details because I've worked in this area before. A corporation is a creature of the state (province) and your Canadian laws appear to be similar to ours. Churches must incorporate here in order to do business, collect money and to be exempt from taxation.

I don't want to say any more to you at the moment because I know little of your circumstances. If you want to PM me, go right ahead. I'll give you an e-mail address, if you want.

More than happy to talk to you soon, Reg... :)

mary

[Doug64]

Hi Reg:

Is the church tax exempt now?

What is the stated reason for incorporating?

Does their constitution document seem clear?

As you know, WCG was tax exempt and for a while a corporate sole.

doug64

[jane]

Reg-

I don't know much about these matters.......but I wanted to let you know that I was reading and listening.

I hope you find the answers that will help alleviate your fears and concerns.

jane

[Reg]

Hi Reg:

Is the church tax exempt now? YES.

What is the stated reason for incorporating? NOT SURE.

Does their constitution document seem clear? WILL ADVISE.

As you know, WCG was tax exempt and for a while a corporate sole.

doug64

[Reg]

Reg-

I don't know much about these matters.......but I wanted to let you know that I was reading and listening.

I hope you find the answers that will help alleviate your fears and concerns.

jane
Thanks Jane,

I won't be able to look into this in more detail until after cottage season and I start attending regularly. Since this is still in the proposal stage and won't happen for approx another year I will have the time to take a closer look at it.

The email they sent me was the first I knew they were persuing that direction. I'm not exactly sure why they want to do that now. I will have to find the reason(s) why later.

[jane]

Reg-

there was a local congregational church........now this is going back a few years......I think that they voted to join the UCC; does that sound right?

A few years later I think it was that group, the UCC that announced support of homosexual something- pastors or marriages; I forget.

The church left the UCC (now it may have been another organization) and made statements against following those beliefs.........they lost some members particularly the gay ones.

I remember all of this because we used to go to a camp that was awesome- and this church was part of the UCC and could go..........when they left the group; the camp was no longer available.

Does this make me sound shallow? I remember being bummed because I loved that camp and the outings that we went to there........wasn't a member of the church; but friends with many and could join the retreats.

I think that if your church is joining an organization or an overseer of some kind; the problems lie in being able to make individual decisions......usually a few from the church are sent to represent the rest....and we all know with politics how well that works out.

Have fun cottaging.........won't be attending the beach much this summer :( but there will be next year God willing.

jane

[ex-shep]

[QUOTE=jane;51437]Reg-

there was a local congregational church........now this is going back a few years......I think that they voted to join the UCC; does that sound right?

A few years later I think it was that group, the UCC that announced support of homosexual something- pastors or marriages; I forget.

I had the same problem with the UMC. The church took an unusually liberal stance. For me, my conscience could not cope with that. This was too bad. It is a great church for one dealing with spiritual abuse.

[Willow]

I personally like unusually liberal stances!!! LOL

[hoipoloi]

I am following this thread with great interest.

Is there any connection with the business-motivated Purpose Driven Churches of Rick Warren, or is there no real connection at all?

I noticed on a news programme that Warren was sympathetic to the American Right in politics, and so the State may have some influence here.

This is of concern for me because my church (which is persecuting me for my negative view of its future plans) has moved towards a Purpose Driven path and my reading of the web-sites (found by googling "rick warren tactics") leaves me with apprehension.

So I am interested in where this thread is leading.

:confused:

[mary]

I noticed on a news programme that Warren was sympathetic to the American Right in politics, and so the State may have some influence here.

I don't think there is any longer, as of about the last year or so, an "American Right." It's gone. Decimated. Consumed while on life support and decompensated by the shrill nuttiness and uncharitable blather of the Ann Coulters of this country. The "American Right" might as well have been car-bombed. It would take DNA testing to find out where it is at present. :cool:

Anyone who hated "the American Right" can rejoice, at least for the foreseeable future, for that entity is no more.

This is of concern for me because my church (which is persecuting me for my negative view of its future plans) has moved towards a Purpose Driven path and my reading of the web-sites (found by googling "rick warren tactics") leaves me with apprehension.

I'm interested in the details, Hoipoloi... What are your church's future plans, etc.? The basis of your negative view of them - and the persecution tactics used? I'm very curious... I'm starting up a church here now that's based in the UK and "the never-say-quit Christian researcher" in me is intrigued by your account here.

So I am interested in where this thread is leading.

Me, too.

mary

[ex-shep]

[QUOTE=mary;51453]I don't think there is any longer, as of about the last year or so, an "American Right." It's gone. Decimated. Consumed while on life support and decompensated by the shrill nuttiness and uncharitable blather of the Ann Coulters of this country. The "American Right" might as well have been car-bombed. It would take DNA testing to find out where it is at present. :cool:

Anyone who hated "the American Right" can rejoice, at least for the foreseeable future, for that entity is no more.



There is still a strong religious right. I hear it on the Christian stations I listen to. Yahoo News has referenced it. From what I gather, there may be two polarizing forces in the 2008 election. I know the camps have just about split the United Methodist church right down the middle. Knowing my former penchant for fiery oratory, I am going out of my way to stay detached.

[hoipoloi]

Hi Mary

My experience of the "Growing" Church and some results of other similar churches as shown when you google "rick warren tactics".

A building project was started which goes beyond what is really necessary and gives the impression that there is intense activity which must mean spiritual growth. (This usually leads to Temporary increase in Numbers but Permanent long-term Financial Debt.) Those who resisted (like me) were offered an alternative service at an unpopular time (very early) so that resources for this were limited and transferred to the main noisy service for the young. The older members were side-tracked (although they were still expected to give their money). Members of the out-of-the-loop service were expected to leave the church and the service shut down. (Ironically, this secondary traditional service has thrived, much to the chagrin of the preachers.) Before the project was started, there were "open" meetings where it became clear that decisions were already made, and dissidents were made to look foolish, harrassed, physically surrounded by loyalists, scapegoated (this happened to me, and continues to happen), persecuted both in the church and in the geographic neighbourhood. (Some of these tactics were used in other churches but not in mine -- I put them here for completeness sake.) The central preachers' gossip groups spread lies about those who asked questions, in the usual SA ways. Members of the congregation were encouraged to join long-term small groups (Bible, Prayer) in order to "close the back door of the church" (Rick Warren's words). Modern paraphrases of the Bible are cherry-picked for support of the propaganda of the new teaching whose aim is to get large numbers of people to finance the project and to put the church into debt to Rick Warren Associates or similar. The thing is run as a profit-making company. I can understand why processes like this are used because the Church of England is in a mess and some diocese are bankrupt, so a move to free-standing congregationalism is on the cards.
But, Jesus was not into buildings. Jesus is being marketted right out of the church.
The church structure is being changed so that the marketing gimmicks attract people from other churches -- There are only a few new people for Christ.
I could go on, but I've probably lost my audience already. :eek::mad::(

[ex-shep]

Hi Mary

My experience of the "Growing" Church and some results of other similar churches as shown when you google "rick warren tactics".

A building project was started which goes beyond what is really necessary and gives the impression that there is intense activity which must mean spiritual growth. (This usually leads to Temporary increase in Numbers but Permanent long-term Financial Debt.) Those who resisted (like me) were offered an alternative service at an unpopular time (very early) so that resources for this were limited and transferred to the main noisy service for the young. The older members were side-tracked (although they were still expected to give their money). Members of the out-of-the-loop service were expected to leave the church and the service shut down. (Ironically, this secondary traditional service has thrived, much to the chagrin of the preachers.) Before the project was started, there were "open" meetings where it became clear that decisions were already made, and dissidents were made to look foolish, harrassed, physically surrounded by loyalists, scapegoated (this happened to me, and continues to happen), persecuted both in the church and in the geographic neighbourhood. (Some of these tactics were used in other churches but not in mine -- I put them here for completeness sake.) The central preachers' gossip groups spread lies about those who asked questions, in the usual SA ways. Members of the congregation were encouraged to join long-term small groups (Bible, Prayer) in order to "close the back door of the church" (Rick Warren's words). Modern paraphrases of the Bible are cherry-picked for support of the propaganda of the new teaching whose aim is to get large numbers of people to finance the project and to put the church into debt to Rick Warren Associates or similar. The thing is run as a profit-making company. I can understand why processes like this are used because the Church of England is in a mess and some diocese are bankrupt, so a move to free-standing congregationalism is on the cards.
But, Jesus was not into buildings. Jesus is being marketted right out of the church.
The church structure is being changed so that the marketing gimmicks attract people from other churches -- There are only a few new people for Christ.
I could go on, but I've probably lost my audience already. :eek::mad::(


Did experience a slightly similar experience. A Saturday evening was canceled due to lack of audience. With a threatened mass walkout and a deafening outcry, the church backed down. Things have started to get wierd since I left. A student pastor is using old shepherding groupspeak. So your scenario does sound plausible.

[mary]

Dear Hoipoloi,

You know what? I can't believe you're not writing about a particular large church just 12 miles from us, rather than a church clear across the Atlantic! They, too, undertook a large, stupid building program under a specious premise ("we have 5,000 members now; we expect to double in five years"), failed, started the service that was the requisite "Big Noisy Affront to Real Worship" for the young folks - and their attendance and membership figures dropped like a stone. We were members of said stupid church from 1992 until 2000, when we decided we didn't like it that "music," if you can call it that, was 75% of every service... I sent an e-mail to a particular "noisy" associate pastor, a nice e-mail, simply reminding him that "the Bible requires that we worship God in and by prayer, preaching, singing and the reading of the Word, but three of those are missing." I got a nasty e-mail back from him and I decided it would be better to leave before we got literally thrown out. But the truth was that we didn't leave before the Session of that church sent us a letter telling us that we'd been "removed from the membership rolls." :confused: :confused: :confused: I still don't understand that...

In your case, though, the "powers that be" were much less subtle about dispensing with the older, more Biblically-based people and instituting the Rick Warren folderol, weren't they? That's horrible. :eek:

It's incredible, too - but then, who said that those who hate "worship in spirit and in truth" have to differ, one continent from another? They're all cut from the same bolt of cloth. They all deceive in the same way, and they all hate and treat those who stand up for Biblical directives in the same manner.

You're absolutely right that Jesus is being marketed right out of these places. Interesting way to put it. In that case, I refuse to affiliate with them anymore. As I said before on another thread, was there one good temple in either Sodom or Gomorrah for Lot to attend? No? And neither are there are many decent churches anywhere anymore, I guess...

It really is all about money. I didn't want to believe that, but I've done a lot of research into these "church growth" things - and that's the real end to be achieved. They're of the world; there's nothing of God there. There's nothing they won't do if the money will run a certain way: into their pockets.

What encourages me, though, is the knowledge of God's sovereignty over the whole thing. He'll gather whom He will. He never leaves us, even though the churches have left us and are marching to sulfurous tunes coming right out of Satan's malodorous bagpipes...

mary

[ex-shep]

Dear Hoipoloi,

You know what? I can't believe you're not writing about a particular large church just 12 miles from us, rather than a church clear across the Atlantic! They, too, undertook a large, stupid building program under a specious premise ("we have 5,000 members now; we expect to double in five years"), failed, started the service that was the requisite "Big Noisy Affront to Real Worship" for the young folks - and their attendance and membership figures dropped like a stone. We were members of said stupid church from 1992 until 2000, when we decided we didn't like it that "music," if you can call it that, was 75% of every service... I sent an e-mail to a particular "noisy" associate pastor, a nice e-mail, simply reminding him that "the Bible requires that we worship God in and by prayer, preaching, singing and the reading of the Word, but three of those are missing." I got a nasty e-mail back from him and I decided it would be better to leave before we got literally thrown out. But the truth was that we didn't leave before the Session of that church sent us a letter telling us that we'd been "removed from the membership rolls." :confused: :confused: :confused: I still don't understand that...

In your case, though, the "powers that be" were much less subtle about dispensing with the older, more Biblically-based people and instituting the Rick Warren folderol, weren't they? That's horrible. :eek:

It's incredible, too - but then, who said that those who hate "worship in spirit and in truth" have to differ, one continent from another? They're all cut from the same bolt of cloth. They all deceive in the same way, and they all hate and treat those who stand up for Biblical directives in the same manner.

You're absolutely right that Jesus is being marketed right out of these places. Interesting way to put it. In that case, I refuse to affiliate with them anymore. As I said before on another thread, was there one good temple in either Sodom or Gomorrah for Lot to attend? No? And neither are there are many decent churches anywhere anymore, I guess...

It really is all about money. I didn't want to believe that, but I've done a lot of research into these "church growth" things - and that's the real end to be achieved. They're of the world; there's nothing of God there. There's nothing they won't do if the money will run a certain way: into their pockets.

What encourages me, though, is the knowledge of God's sovereignty over the whole thing. He'll gather whom He will. He never leaves us, even though the churches have left us and are marching to sulfurous tunes coming right out of Satan's malodorous bagpipes...

mary

I guess it depends where one goes. It was Rick Warren church. It was a diverse congregation with no pressure to conform. The fact that the senior pastor started out in the shepherding years of the Community was incentive to not go back there. I have a nose of cultic activity. Not until this winter did I have any warning bells go off. I was there for 2 years and enjoyed immensely. I was referring to the Community church I attended in Texas.

I guess it depends where one goes.

[hoipoloi]

Thank you, Mary and ex-shepherd, for your responses.

In many ways I am not as angry as I have been about 3 years ago, and my aim is to help other churches understand the problems of the "Growing Church".

You are absolutely right in saying that IT'S ALL ABOUT MONEY. Which is a shame. It seems to make the leaders lose all sense of the Love of God through Christ.

There is, of course, room for a more lively church service for the next generation, but that it should go OTT, when there should be times for quietness and calm also, is unfortunate. I feel that it really brings so much of our noisy fraught world into the church itself: but this is a personal view and I am open to a different opinion. And "The Peace" ..... But I won't go into that.

As I mentioned, the irony of it all is that the traditional service on early Sunday morning, where those who want to have a calming Christian perspective for the following week, has got quite popular with those who have found out about it, many traveling from other districts. The preachers were going to review it after a year (to close it down), then after two years, but since the numbers have grown slightly, they cannot do this. My wife and I encouraged the leaders to start this service and they agreed, no doubt thinking it would not work, and they have never forgiven me personally -- the beginning of my problems. It is a little Christian haven in the midst of a church of pandemonium.

But I fear it will not last because of "natural wastage", so to speak.

Meanwhile, while it's there ......

:)

[Elisabeth]

One thing that I found really, really, cool:

I met with the pastor of the start up church that I want to get involved with. He is a young guy, as is the others in the church planting staff. They are planning on non-traditional contemporary music, emergent church style, etc. But he says that he doesn't view churches as being in competition with each other. He says that, sure, his church might not be able to reach some of the older folks, the more traditional people who want the quieter, traditional worship and Sunday School and Wednesday evening Bible study at the church instead of home groups, etc. But there are several traditional churches, even in the same denomination, in the area. Also his non-traditional church would be able to reach several people which traditional churches would not be able to reach. I liked that. :D

[hoipoloi]

Hi Elizabeth

You are quite right in thinking that a balance among the different styles of worship is an excellent goal. In fact, the mild success of the quiet service prevented it being closed down, and the preachers have taken the credit for our church being so inclusive and welcoming in character :confused:. Meanwhile, the SA persists ;).

[Elisabeth]

Hi Elizabeth

You are quite right in thinking that a balance among the different styles of worship is an excellent goal. In fact, the mild success of the quiet service prevented it being closed down, and the preachers have taken the credit for our church being so inclusive and welcoming in character :confused:. Meanwhile, the SA persists ;).

You know, Jesus said something really excellent. He said that the greatest command is to love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, and mind, and the second is like it: to love your neighbor as yourself. Too bad this isn't always practiced in churches.