Hypocrisy - Watch out for this!

[areopa]

I was in a congregation once where the pastor insisted that he could not talk to my wife without permission and that other men likewise shouldn't be talking to women in the Church without the permission of their husbands.

Now, this sort of rule is nowhere found in Scripture and in fact is nothing more than a cultural preference on the part of those who want to live in patriarchal men dominated dreamworlds that just don't exist anymore.

Imagine my shock then when on the gossiping advice of another, the pastor went and talked to my own wife in private about me and proceeded to tell her that my dedication to the church was adulterous and I was a "corrupt covenant head"!

I trust the hypocrisy is obvious here (and I've simplified things a bit to make the contrast obvious). But, any minister that tells you one thing and does another--that ought to be a warning sign that things are not as they should be. Ministers who do these things will tell you in response that they are as ministers allowed such liberties for things like the protection of the flock and shepherding the sheep, but the Scriptures tell us that ministers must meet an even higher standard than the laypeople they serve.

Remember that we are God's children and as a result--we do have the right to question these sorts of things in line with what the Bible says. No minister is beyond question in these things and ministers who avoid questions or talk long and hard about their rationalization for certain actions are ministers who need to be questioned and likely thrown out of the church and the ministry.

Lord bless,
>>>Rev. Kevin D. Johnson

[mary]

Rev. Johnson, yes, the hypocrisy is obvious in what was done to you... You were rightfully outraged. That was a horrible thing to do to you! :mad: :mad: :mad: No one had the right to tell you that you were a "corrupt covenant head." What did he have, microphones and little cameras placed around your home in strategic places?! :eek: :cool: That was terrible and I am outraged on your behalf.

You say,

Remember that we are God's children and as a result--we do have the right to question these sorts of things in line with what the Bible says. No minister is beyond question in these things and ministers who avoid questions or talk long and hard about their rationalization for certain actions are ministers who need to be questioned and likely thrown out of the church and the ministry.

This is certainly the ideal, but "it ain't happening." Some of us (myself included) came from churches where ministers had done something that was blatantly wrong and in some cases, they waged vicious and legally actionable (due to slander and/or libel) vendettas against us. In my case, in accordance with Matthew 18:15-17, I went to an elder and asked for a meeting. The elder proposed a meeting with himself and the other elder, excluding the minister. I said, "No, I want him present because it's not right if I present a list of grievances against him and he isn't there to answer them." The elder said okay, that he would talk to the minister and get back with me. That was in January of last year... I never heard another word. I went to a member of Presbytery, with my husband, and was rebuffed there as well. Then I went to the denomination and, courtesy of that august body, I was thoroughly and finally booted from the visible Body of Christ. Is anyone going to exercise authority over this minister, hold him accountable or throw him out of the church and/or ministry? Pigs will grow feathers like peacocks before that happens! No: that minister threw me out of the church (without taking it before Session) over a year and a half ago. I remain "unchurched," unattached and uncared for by other Christians, except in this forum. That minister cares/cared for me about as much as he does one of the fleas on his dog. Probably less.

Justice for most of us will not come through church channels, whether they be presbyteries, boards of elders, denominational discipline proceedings or whatever. A particular general assembly is occurring right now; I was on its web site last night and I discovered that in the past week, it voted against providing protection for "children, women and vulnerable adults" in proceedings involving the potential discipline of ministers against whom certain charges have been made. Some church.

Justice for most of us will come when the Lord Himself executes it. We may or may not see it ourselves. As to my particular situation, I do pray that God dispenses a great deal of mercy along with the justice that His character requires.

This is a mean, vicious world, and some of those who call themselves Christians are indistinguishable from those in the world. That's why I've pretty much given up.

May the Lord bless His Day for you tomorrow...

mary

[areopa]

Justice for most of us will not come through church channels, whether they be presbyteries, boards of elders, denominational discipline proceedings or whatever.

I fear you are astoundingly correct here. We live in a time that is analogous to the era of the Judges--men do what is right in their own eyes (Judges 17:6) and this includes ministers in the Church. Our own issues with the elder I mentioned below was one that could never go to trial even in the loosely-based presbyterian model they had in place. There was never any protection for laypeople or others who made charges against elders and that process would have been more trouble than it was worth.

In modern presbyterianism today, my suggestion is to not put yourself in any legal/disciplinary situation with elders because they have their bases covered. Don't do it unless you feel called of the Lord that the next two to three years will be all about these sorts of issues. This can kill a family and likely many people have been stretched to the point of nearly breaking through things like this.

It was one thing when judges and elders were men of integrity and didn't exist with the sort of 'good ol' boys club' fraternity in their sessions and presbyteries.

My suggestion is to leave bodies like this and go elsewhere. Do not sacrifice your Christian confession on the altar of the impossible. I wish I could give different advice and that the court of honored men in our churches could be trusted but I completely agree with you here and I'm saddened that there is no place for you to go right now.

[COLOR=black]A particular general assembly is occurring right now; I was on its web site last night and I discovered that in the past week, it voted against providing protection for "children, women and vulnerable adults" in proceedings involving the potential discipline of ministers against whom certain charges have been made. Some church.

I would be very interested to know which presbyterian body has done this--could you msg me or just let us all know. I will speak out against this sort of thing as a minister!

Justice for most of us will come when the Lord Himself executes it. We may or may not see it ourselves. As to my particular situation, I do pray that God dispenses a great deal of mercy along with the justice that His character requires.

You have the heart of a true Christian. Yes, mercy is what we should pray for but you are right--the Lord's judgment will not go unsatiated. It is a fearful thing to consider the consequences of abusing the flock. I don't like to even talk about it because men earn the severe judgment of God when they are so abusive and the consequences are drastic whether we see them in our own interactions with them or not.

This is a mean, vicious world, and some of those who call themselves Christians are indistinguishable from those in the world. That's why I've pretty much given up.

Well, we pray for the Church at our church and I'll remember you in prayer. I realize it isn't an easy thing to continue as if you were walking in a desert wilderness for the last three years...some of the reason why I don't tell people all the details of what I've gone through during my life in terms of spiritual abuse is because it can be a discouragement and the last thing people wounded by spiritual abuse need is discouragement.

I pray the Lord will bless you, give you strength to move on, and help you to find the right sort of fellowship to be with other fellow Christians that embrace Christ and live all their days working for Him alone.

>>>Rev. Kevin D. Johnson

[Elisabeth]

My suggestion is to leave bodies like this and go elsewhere. Do not sacrifice your Christian confession on the altar of the impossible.

I like that. For a long time, I was thinking things would only be "right" if I could get my abusive pastor out of that church, and be able to at least occasionally visit that church. I was wanting to tell my abuser's congregation what he had done to me. A few months ago I asked my sister in law, who is still a member of that church, although she can't stand the pastor, if she would want to get a confidence vote going against that pastor. She told me it probably wouldn't do any good; he's got so many people buffaloed. My step father in law said how he would love to get the pastor out of there, but he's got this person in his pocket, and that person, etc. He is a good liar.

[mary]

Thank you so much for your response, Rev. Johnson, and for your kind words... I, too, agree with Elisabeth that what you have said about not sacrificing our Christian confession on the altar of the impossible is profound. It brings peace and health to the efforts that we do make on behalf of spreading the Gospel, if we don't waste them where, obviously, they're not going to bear fruit.

We think that things are bad today in churches, but has the devil ever not hassled Christians? I read about what C. H. Spurgeon went through in the mid-19th century: he was run out on a rail by his own people. Not once; multiple times. So many others in years and centuries past were defamed, debased, abused, imprisoned. This is not unusual; it's just that it's happening to us.

Bottom line: our Lord advised us to "count the cost" of following Him, but really, there is no alternative... We must leave earthly things behind, all of them, including the fellowship of some people, even "authority figures," if we are to follow Him; we are not to look back at a smoldering city or at wickedness, as Lot's wife did - and we are to look lovingly at our Lord and precious Savior and say, Yes! As Peter said to Him, "Where else can we go? You have the words of eternal life..."

It's Saturday evening, the preface to His blessed day... I thank Him tonight for the fellowship and the kindness of everyone here, among all the other blessings He's given. We're not alone here: we have each other, but most importantly, if you have the Lord Jesus Christ, you have everything and every One you need.

Yours in Him,

mary

[Anna Marta]

Thank you Kevin for your honesty and sage words. I whole heartedly agree with you. The body of Christ is being destroyed from within by the people who have the responsibility to safeguard and build it up. Makes me think of poor old Nehemiah and his workers. The threats came from within the ranks as well
from enemies outside. He had to post guards for his own protection and his men had to work with a sword in one hand.

My initial exposure to information about such behavior in a church was a book written in Norwegian (that has not been translated into English) entitled "Power Hungry People in the Church." The author is a trained Christian counselor. When it was published some years ago it hit this society like an atom bomb. It was the first time this kind of information was actually written down and disseminated. He called these people psychopaths. The book is small and written in short chapters. It hit my stomach like a wrecking ball. He described the behavior and the futility of trying to deal with such persons. His descriptions are concise and based on his counseling experience.

I have retained several salient points:

By the time you are aware of the actions of this person and have decided to move against them, you have already been out maneuvered.
Leave the church saying as little as possible because anything you say or write will be twisted and used against you.
Lay people need to be given permission to stand up and fight what is happening in the church without being persecuted.
Pray for the abuser(s) once and then give them to God; intensive prayer for them to change prolongs healing.


I marveled at how many of these personalities could be found in churches until I finally understood that the church is fertile ground in which they can grown and thrive.

There is a sense of unreality about trying to come to terms with the "real thing" of SA. I looked a bit like a punch drunk old boxer for a long time. Staggering around in some kind of fog-like "other" reality that no one seemed to understand or accept and the abusive parties denied, it nearly made me think I was going crazy. The very things they preached against and did were the very things they were saying and doing themselves and denying.

Recovering from SA is serious business! It is much more intense and involved than those never touched by it can comprehend. I am becoming a better person and Christian as a result of it, but sure wish it hadn't touched our lives.

Anna Marta

[Anna Marta]

Sorry I messed up the listings I hit submit instead of preview... :o

[Elisabeth]

Pray for the abuser(s) once and then give them to God; intensive prayer for them to change prolongs healing.


I like that; so many times when I have told people not to talk about my abuser, somebody would say "Pray for him." But you're right; if a person hopes so much that the abuser will change, the wound will stay open.

[Jerry]

Imagine my shock then when on the gossiping advice of another, the pastor went and talked to my own wife in private about me and proceeded to tell her that my dedication to the church was adulterous and I was a "corrupt covenant head"!



Hats off to you Kevin,,,,,,,,I probably would have busted his nose :mad: :D