Sermon on laity and service in the church

[areopa]

I've posted yesterday's sermon on our website--this sermon focuses on the giftedness and the identity of laypeople in the church:

http://www.trinityphoenix.com/?p=75

I would be elated if it is at all useful for anyone here and I'd be happy to entertain any comments, question, or suggestions on the sermon or topic.

The Lord bless you all,
>>>Rev. Kevin D. Johnson

[mary]

Rev. Johnson, I'm going to listen to your sermon as soon as I can... I'm very much looking forward to it. For now, though, we've been dealt a dirty blow - and it's on point with your sermon topic. (My thread "They've Pulled the Rug Out..." explains it.)

Meanwhile, in about 4 hours, the first "meet and greet" of the new mission start-up is supposed to take place here at our home. I thought the Lord had plans for this and I thought things were coming together...

Maybe a house church is the only thing that will work here now.

Maybe a sheep shouldn't try to gather herself... :( :( :(

mary

[jane]

Maybe a sheep shouldn't try to gather herself...

Mary, let me be honest, that sounds like a line that someone would use in a dysfunctional church to keep someone from doing something.

Is it scriptural? You are always eloquent with the WORD. Ask yourself, If I wrote that, what scripture verses would you have with me about why that doesn't line up with the word of God........

I think it says, for where two or more are gathered, I am in the midst of them.

Doesn't sound like anyone outside, including God does the gathering.....sounds to me like the believers are gathering together themselves...and that God is in the midst of such of thing.

Don't buy the lies, the lines, the newest movement or craze..........Jesus is the same yesterday, today and forever........

He is in the midst of you when you gather.

love,
jane

[jane]

Kevin D. Johnson-

I am not sure about your post. What are your motives? Are you trying to get the people here to follow you or your sermons??

I haven't been around of late because I have been busy, so I am unfamiliar with you, this is my first reading of a post of yours.

Do you know what this forum is for?

I am not comptfortable when a reverned or anyone comes on with a sermon or web site trying to draw us there.

I am not going to be listening to your sermon..........and can only hope that your motives are sincerely from God......

seems off to me, to be posting sermons from one's own church in a place where there are spiritually wounded...... why not rectruit from a different group of people?

Or better yet, why not pray for healing for the people here........and listen for a while, HUH?

Jane E. Mski







I've posted yesterday's sermon on our website--this sermon focuses on the giftedness and the identity of laypeople in the church:

http://www.trinityphoenix.com/?p=75

I would be elated if it is at all useful for anyone here and I'd be happy to entertain any comments, question, or suggestions on the sermon or topic.

The Lord bless you all,
>>>Rev. Kevin D. Johnson

[areopa]

Jane,

I understand that it can be difficult dealing with people who are servants of the Church when you and others have suffered greatly at the hands of ministers. So, I take your comments in stride and am glad at least that you asked the questions rather than make unwarranted accusations.

I'm also sorry that my presence here makes you uncomfortable but I'm not sure what I can do about that.

I posted a link to my sermon only because my previous sermon was brought to the attention of this forum by someone else and was pretty well-received. You can view that thread here:

http://www.christianrecovery.com/vb/showthread.php?t=6729

I am actually doing a series on the role of ministers and laity in the congregation, what church membership means (next Sunday), and how to look for warning signs in terms of abusive elders and/or congregations that violently attack and abuse the sheepfold of God. I will leave it to the forum members as to whether or not my sermons are worth considering--I brought the link to the last one only to hopefully provide some help and empathy for what is always undoubtedly a difficult and trying situation.

Last, I have been listening/reading the concerns of the group (and praying for you all) and it rips my own heart out. That such a forum even exists or is necessary is all too telling about the state of the Church in our world today.

However, you might consider that men like me too have been the victim of similar ministerial abuse and as a result I do everything in my power to both prevent it and provide support for those who have been unduly victimized by it. Spiritual abuse is a great crime and the Lord will not hold those who practice such things guiltless. We likely have more in common than might be apparent at first glance.

I pray that whatever situation you and everyone else finds themselves in in regards to the Church--that we all rely on the Spirit of the Lord and His promises to go from day to day. Do not lose heart and do not place your faith and trust in men--trust in the Lord--he will make your path straight.

The Lord bless you and yours,
Rev. Kevin D. Johnson

[mary]

Mary, let me be honest, that sounds like a line that someone would use in a dysfunctional church to keep someone from doing something.

Is it scriptural? You are always eloquent with the WORD. Ask yourself, If I wrote that, what scripture verses would you have with me about why that doesn't line up with the word of God........

I think it says, for where two or more are gathered, I am in the midst of them.

Doesn't sound like anyone outside, including God does the gathering.....sounds to me like the believers are gathering together themselves...and that God is in the midst of such of thing.

Don't buy the lies, the lines, the newest movement or craze..........Jesus is the same yesterday, today and forever........

He is in the midst of you when you gather.

love,
jane

Yeah, I know, Jane... I was just thinking about Ezekiel 34, where the Lord says that He will gather the sheep from where they've been scattered, and I thought, I'm a dumb sheep, running around looking for a shepherd! I'm saying, "Here, shepherd, shepherd!" Do sheep do that?! :o :p I just got really discouraged yesterday. I lost it temporarily. Then today I got two more nasty e-mails from township officials about the proposed church meeting and service... But I read several psalms this morning and some of John's Gospel, and I feel better now. House churches -- well, sure, if you have to do it, then, as you say, "where two or more are gathered..."

Thank you so much for your note! BTW, I went to your site -- counting down the days, huh? Bet you can't wait to see that little face!!!! :) And I'm anticipating reading about him/her on here! :D

Re: Rev. Johnson - I listened to his first sermon when Lily posted a link to it here and I was very blessed by it. As you know, I worked for a couple of decades as a legal/medical writer, researcher and investigator, and I think (although I got fooled at my last church - :o) that I can usually detect it when someone's "not the real deal." Rev. Johnson's first sermon was fantastic, I thought, and I put the notes that I took while listening to it on Lily's thread... uh, Lily, what was that thread called? (I'm still feeling the effects of the sucker punches I took yesterday.) Anyway, I do believe he is the real deal; he means to help us, not hurt us, and he offered me some helpful advice. I'm looking forward to listening to the rest of Rev. Johnson's series.

Thanking you again, and keeping you on my prayer list,

Love,

mary

[jane]

well, I certainly appreciate you taking the time to respond to me.

Like I said, I haven't been here as often as I was.......so if I am wrong, I will stand corrected.

I am uncomptfortable reading, "come read my sermon" and signing your name with a title..........Just my opinion, no offense intended.

Plus, before I typed, I only found 4 posts that you had written,
so yeah, I am curious about who you are and what you experienced....before I trust.

There seems to be a pattern in the abusive church community to even take a new issue.........make themselves appear sincere.........and twist it to abuse.

I could see it becoming the new topic in my old church, "spiritual abuse....blah blah blah blah......." from the pulpit.....and then later, "well, of course Pastor is not spiritually abusive, HE ADDRESSED THAT FROM THE PULPIT. Looking at the abused victim like they were crazy or decieved

Not accusing you of such a thing, just voicing my need to wait and see before I trust.

******************************************
and I do believe that men in leadership are abused......in fact, I believe that my old pastor sincerely was seeking the heart and will of God.........went to a seminary in the south that made him a slave in the name of servanthood.......before he could become pastor.........the stories he told of "growing" were horrific to my ears and felt abusive. His wife almost died in labor and left a premature sick newborn with her sister.......to remain faithfull to the call; his training and returned south with him by his side. He spoke of being screamed at for not sweeping the dinning room floor perfectly enough..of not being dedicated for oversleeping one day after studying all night........


just like abused children without healing grow up and perpetuate cycles of abuse blindly........

so with compassion, I understand.

But I stand firm with my boundaries that I have in time trusted God "to lay in pleasant places".


Your response letter says you understand why I might have issues with servants of the church........I do have many issues.

Starting with that fact that we are all servants of Christ.......

and that the lest is the greatest amongst us.......and things like that which Jesus spoke. So while you serve Christ by leading and teaching...........I will also honor the people who are serving by caring for the children in the nurseries..........and visiting the sick.......feeding the hungary, clothing the naked.......doing all the little things in the name of Him.

So I react to your title........just as I would react to a man coming on as PROPHET........or any title implying an earned position above.......because of my wounds......but also because of my love for the sheep as some would call the church.......

jane







Jane,

I understand that it can be difficult dealing with people who are servants of the Church when you and others have suffered greatly at the hands of ministers. So, I take your comments in stride and am glad at least that you asked the questions rather than make unwarranted accusations.

I'm also sorry that my presence here makes you uncomfortable but I'm not sure what I can do about that.

I posted a link to my sermon only because my previous sermon was brought to the attention of this forum by someone else and was pretty well-received. You can view that thread here:

http://www.christianrecovery.com/vb/showthread.php?t=6729

I am actually doing a series on the role of ministers and laity in the congregation, what church membership means (next Sunday), and how to look for warning signs in terms of abusive elders and/or congregations that violently attack and abuse the sheepfold of God. I will leave it to the forum members as to whether or not my sermons are worth considering--I brought the link to the last one only to hopefully provide some help and empathy for what is always undoubtedly a difficult and trying situation.

Last, I have been listening/reading the concerns of the group (and praying for you all) and it rips my own heart out. That such a forum even exists or is necessary is all too telling about the state of the Church in our world today.

However, you might consider that men like me too have been the victim of similar ministerial abuse and as a result I do everything in my power to both prevent it and provide support for those who have been unduly victimized by it. Spiritual abuse is a great crime and the Lord will not hold those who practice such things guiltless. We likely have more in common than might be apparent at first glance.

I pray that whatever situation you and everyone else finds themselves in in regards to the Church--that we all rely on the Spirit of the Lord and His promises to go from day to day. Do not lose heart and do not place your faith and trust in men--trust in the Lord--he will make your path straight.

The Lord bless you and yours,
Rev. Kevin D. Johnson

[butterfly]

Areopn , The word "Pastor" is a warning sign to some of us here. It means

Pastor = Danger Danger!!!

Jane and I with some other members were here when "Pastors" who came on the forum trying to preach and heal us they had all the answers for our cure.:mad::mad:


:) So far I don"t see anything. Danger.

If you are willing to share some of your SA on the forum that would be very helpfull to me.


Some get triggered by some bible verises, the word pastor, plus people trying to tell us how to heal our self.

I know you are not doing this I just want you to know how we react sometimes.

I am sorry you have been SA and share if you want to. In your own timeing.

butterfly shilrey

[Elisabeth]

Jane and I with some other members were here when "Pastors" who came on the forum trying to preach and heal us they had all the answers for our cure.:mad::mad:



Some pastors did that?! Barf, barf, barf! I know that I have encountered some clueless pastors when I would tell them my story, like in their office or after church, (actually, most of them were clueless when it came to SA) but to go on a forum like this and claim they had the answers?! What nerve!

As far as I can tell, Rev. Johnson here is for real, though! I love it!:D Guess the main reason why I feel that way is the fact he doesn't try to heal us, tell us what to do, and doesn't claim to have all the answers.

[butterfly]

Yes Elisbeth and there have been people who came here that found the answers to healing SA. Who wanted to fix us because they had the answer to healing.

Those times were very upsetting.:(:(:(

It was like being invaded in our safe place. Well that is how I felt.

I have nothing against Aerpo. I know their are pastors who have been abused just like the rest of us.

Some have come here because of being abused and asked for help and prayer.

I just wanted to explain how some of us react when we see pastors here.

For me it doesn"t mean I don"t think pastors should not come here.

Its just the ones who have a mission for preaching and being S abusive.

:D I use the word barf alot . Going to the church I went to just made me sick.

They should have barf bags at the door.

butterfly

[jane]

butterfly-

I had a friend who went to a church that handed out barf bags.........when you were delivered, if you didn't vomit out the demon- it was still in you.

Can you imagine?

I can see myself now, pregnant, in a service with everyone barfing out demons......YIKES! I would have a few demons to deliver that would have more to do with pregnancy hormones reacting to the barfing :D



YEAH, we had a few people here that have had "the only way" to heal us......through us begging for forgiveness for our unforgiveness and bitterness.......and following only THEIR way..........ONE felt on a ministry by the Lord to get us all on track and out of deception and bitterness......

RIGHT?

Something like when a young child is molested and is told by all that it is in her imagination:mad::mad::mad::mad:

Someone SERVING THE CHURCH would NEVER hurt the bride:mad:

Oh well, time will tell.

jane

[Carmen]

Visited areopa's site, don't have time to write my opinions on it, on the whole not bad though in my opinion, by what I've seen so far. Still need to delve a little deeper, didn't get to the sermon itself (gotta see a few of those to get a feel for things), but have run out of time today. Am marking this thread so I can come back to it...so little time...have the mods checked into things?

[areopa]

Areopn , The word "Pastor" is a warning sign to some of us here. It means

Pastor = Danger Danger!!!

That's completely understandable. Not a problem at all. In fact, likely very much warranted and sadly so. There is a sense in which all of us who are ministers must be ready to take the hit for what others have done wrong.


If you are willing to share some of your SA on the forum that would be very helpfull to me.

I may in time. For now, many of my experiences are reflected in my sermons and both sermons contain 'warning signs' which do reflect some of the situations I've been in myself. You are welcome to take them or leave them.

I'm not here to try to fix anything or anyone. I can't. I can tell you where I've been, what I understand the Bible to say, and where I think a person who has been wounded can go but it is only the Spirit of the Lord that can comfort, help, guide, and make it possible for us to forgive and move on.

I appreciate everyone's honesty and prefer that to ridiculous politeness. On titles and being called "reverend" or "pastor"--that is a lot more about my obligation to live up to being an example for Christ than it is some sort of respect thing. There is respect due the office of minister much like we respect the office of the President of the United States. But the respect due any individual minister should really first be earned. And any trust you give a minister in regards to your own life should first be earned trust as well. I don't expect any respect from anyone that isn't earned and even then a minister should have a gracious posture that allows him to meet people where they are rather than where he might think they should be--because Christ died for that person as much as He did for anyone else.

The word "minister" means "servant", not arrogant jerk, and the model for servanthood is Christ who gave Himself up for us on the cross and considered others as more important than Himself (Philippians 2:3-11).

I don't expect anyone to automatically refer to me with those titles or without them. I also don't expect people to agree with me or even like me. Really, I don't have any expectations of the forum--I'm just glad to be able to be a part of it and thank you all for being at least welcoming enough not to chase me off. :)

[Willow]

And thank you for sticking around and talking to us as well. It's nice to do some rational and honest dialogue with someone still in the ministry. I was quite used to being treated as an underling or a child by my pastors. I began to wonder if people in the church were ever allowed to grow up... and whether the pastor and wife should really be called mommy and daddy.

[butterfly]

Iam glad you are able to help Christians who were abused with your church and web site.:D

I wished I had a pastor who said I understand what you have gone thru with the SA.

No such thing around here where I live.
If there was I would be in church maybe.

I live in a small area with small towns.

Most of the pastors know each other and have their own kind of SA.

We were told not to go to other churches because they didn"t beleave like us.:(:(

Thinking about it now it is funny.:) My pastor didn"t obey his rule.

He would have breakfast with the other pastors on Thursday mornings.:rolleyes:

If we did leave and go somewhere else the pastor would tell us that we should go back. He didn"t want bad feelings with the other pastor.

Because he didn"t want him to feel that he was stealing his people.:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:
butterfly

[Elisabeth]

The word "minister" means "servant", not arrogant jerk, and the model for servanthood is Christ who gave Himself up for us on the cross and considered others as more important than Himself (Philippians 2:3-11).

Wish more ministers would realize that. :( Unfortunately, I think that some people go into the ministry because they are arrogant jerks and figure they deserve to be the leader of a group of people, and that they know God better than anyone. :mad:

[Elisabeth]

And thank you for sticking around and talking to us as well. It's nice to do some rational and honest dialogue with someone still in the ministry. I was quite used to being treated as an underling or a child by my pastors. I began to wonder if people in the church were ever allowed to grow up... and whether the pastor and wife should really be called mommy and daddy.

I hear that! My SA pastor was like that, too.:(

[Anna Marta]

We have listened to the 2nd sermon and found it encouraging. Gave us (Steinar and I) hours of tossing ideas back and forth.

I think we all need to remember that Kevin Johnson is pastor of a traditional denominational church with its' own doctrinal viewpoints. Given this, I have a great deal of respect for him as he reaches out to the hurting and abused. His use of the title Rev. is a form of respect for the office and goes along with his background as well.

I found that I had to put aside some things as I listened for the golden kernel of the message. My husband and I thought he was very clear in helping people to understand their true position as a part of the Body of Christ and found that encouraging. His list of what to look for in order to avoid becoming part of (or becoming aware of) an abusive situation was good.

I have the sense that Kevin is definitely speaking from personal experience and can sense his heart for not wanting others to be hurt. I respect that.

Anna Marta

[Reg]

Hi Jane,

Like all of us, our trust muscle has been severely injured. However I detect Kevin Johnson is one of the good Pastors. It's like I said on this thread

Good sermon about SA online
http://www.christianrecovery.com/vb/showthread.php?t=6729

Dear Pastor Johnson,

You are a rare Pastor tackling a very thorny issue that much of mainstream Christianity is in denial of.

May God bless your efforts to inform all of this. I believe that Satan has many strongholds in the visible church. He does not like to be exposed and will mount an attack against those who expose his subtle deceptive work within the visible church. This is what Jesus did and was one of the main reasons the religious leaders hated Him and had Him crucified. This is what all of us long for here. For those who are deceptive religious leaders in Christianity to be exposed.

In Matthew 23 are the words Jesus used against these religious leaders of his day. Who has the courage today to use such hard terms today? Who has the zeal to expose them today?

I don't think you realize how much we value someone like you.

May God bless you and protect you in this venture of yours.