View Full Version : People can get away with the most bizarre things ...
Elisabeth
05-12-2007, 09:35 PM
I was just thinking. You know, people can get away with the most bizarre things just because they claim that they are from God. If somebody at work or in a social circle tried to do the sh-- that so many of us have experienced from ministers or others in the church, we would tell them to sit on it and find somewhere else to hang out! But we are taught to respect ministers, and other leaders in the church, and by the time we realize that not every one can be trusted, that some are out for themselves and hang everyone else's needs, some of us have been totally sent through a spiritual mix master. I take comfort in knowing that God is still on His throne and in control, even if some people who claim to represent him are false.
ex-shep
05-12-2007, 10:02 PM
I glad for your faith and discernment. Others who have left their groups have not been so lucky. My faith was torn to shreds. It was extremely hard to trust anything remotely evangelical because of the abuse. I can understand why it makes many former members become card carrying atheists. I do not blame them. :eek:
Have to give you credit for separating the wheat from the chaff. Next latte on me.
If somebody at work or in a social circle tried to do the sh-- that so many of us have experienced from ministers or others in the church, we would tell them to sit on it and find somewhere else to hang out!
It's ironic that you said that, Elisabeth. When my husband and I had our private "chat" with "pastor," my husband told him, "If you worked for one of the Big Three (automakers) and you hugged a female coworker the way I saw you hug my wife, your job would be gone instantly and you would be escorted to your vehicle by security." This charming "pastor" snorted and yelled, "This is a church, not a corporation! I am allowed to hug people however I want!" My husband firmly but calmly stated, "No. Only I get to hug my wife in that manner." Finally, "pastor" yelled, "I will never hug your wife again! How's that?" But three weeks later, one day when my husband wasn't around, he said to me, "We'll do it in private, okay?" I said no. When he saw that I meant it, he threw me out of the church.
Sure: now, picture that scenario happening in private industry. I'm thinking of law offices because they're what I know. A lot of "stuff" goes on in law offices that doesn't go on in other places. Really crude joking, double entendres, people messing around - or pretending to - are SOP; it's kind of the "nature of the beast." However, you wouldn't be able to get away with what "pastor" tried to even in a law office. Not for long, anyway.
It's so sad that that's what the church has been reduced to these days. I'm trusting that the Lord will not allow anything remotely resembling what happened to me in that last place to happen with the new church effort I'm trying to get going. (Sometimes I think, what am I, totally nuts????)
mary
ex-shep
05-13-2007, 01:06 PM
It's ironic that you said that, Elisabeth. When my husband and I had our private "chat" with "pastor," my husband told him, "If you worked for one of the Big Three (automakers) and you hugged a female coworker the way I saw you hug my wife, your job would be gone instantly and you would be escorted to your vehicle by security." This charming "pastor" snorted and yelled, "This is a church, not a corporation! I am allowed to hug people however I want!" My husband firmly but calmly stated, "No. Only I get to hug my wife in that manner." Finally, "pastor" yelled, "I will never hug your wife again! How's that?" But three weeks later, one day when my husband wasn't around, he said to me, "We'll do it in private, okay?" I said no. When he saw that I meant it, he threw me out of the church.
Sure: now, picture that scenario happening in private industry. I'm thinking of law offices because they're what I know. A lot of "stuff" goes on in law offices that doesn't go on in other places. Really crude joking, double entendres, people messing around - or pretending to - are SOP; it's kind of the "nature of the beast." However, you wouldn't be able to get away with what "pastor" tried to even in a law office. Not for long, anyway.
It's so sad that that's what the church has been reduced to these days. I'm trusting that the Lord will not allow anything remotely resembling what happened to me in that last place to happen with the new church effort I'm trying to get going. (Sometimes I think, what am I, totally nuts????)
mary
Read my Metro Airlines posts regarding the sexual harassment from a female bully. Go to members list, click "E", scroll to "ex-shep", Click links to all threads started by ex-shep. It was a twilight zone nightmare. The good news is that you are out and can look for a more healthy venue to worship and serve.
ex-shep
05-13-2007, 01:10 PM
Here is a post at my former employer. It got even nuttier. I got tired of baning my head against the wall. I resigned from the company. Enough was enough:
Investigation at work over/Felt like a Cult leaders convention
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I felt I just spoke with a bunch of cult leaders over the sexual harassment complaint at work. Because I could not substantiate the facts and the witness to the abuse chickened out, I was accused of writing a false report. Thankfully it was only a write up with no affect on my career. I have found management sticking their fingers in their ears and blaming the victim over this situation. I finally blew up at the department head for their denial over the situation and had our friends behavior been addressed last fall we would not be having this meeting.
I did have a friend who was a former EAP rep sit in. She thought that even though I was overly emotional, I did affectively stand my ground and I had every right to do so. She also had the insight that the offender will not repeat the behavior after I filed the sexual harassment complaint. Her take was that management sufficiently read the riot act to the point of scaring her. It has been a month since I have seen her with the exception of the time she ran away from me an into a bulletin board.
I get a double message that the company takes sexual harassment seriously and even gave me a phamplet on it -- like I have never read the policy. Unless I get beaten up the company will not do anything about it. I get the attitude there is not a problem, except me.
At this point the harassment has ceased and I did not get endanger my job. So I will get this out of my system and move on.
DiligentLily
05-13-2007, 05:36 PM
But three weeks later, one day when my husband wasn't around, he said to me, "We'll do it in private, okay?" I said no. When he saw that I meant it, he threw me out of the church.
Ugh! Sicko!
I was just thinking. You know, people can get away with the most bizarre things just because they claim that they are from God. If somebody at work or in a social circle tried to do the sh-- that so many of us have experienced from ministers or others in the church, we would tell them to sit on it and find somewhere else to hang out! But we are taught to respect ministers, and other leaders in the church, and by the time we realize that not every one can be trusted, that some are out for themselves and hang everyone else's needs, some of us have been totally sent through a spiritual mix master. I take comfort in knowing that God is still on His throne and in control, even if some people who claim to represent him are false.
Elisabeth, I think that the reason the abusers get in so deep in our psyches is because we had already bought into the fact that our church or our pastor or our little denomination was the only one that really (fill-in-the-blank)--taught biblical truth, or really worshipped God, or was pure, or was filled with the Spirit. Whatever the distinction--we all had it. I have been on this forum long enough to know that it wasn't just me. Whatever denomination or tradition or theology we have in this very diverse online community, we had each and all bought into the idea that there was something special about our churches. We had given over our judgment to some degree to the leadership of our churches. We had trusted them and felt it was them and us against the rest of the world.
Then when they turned on us, there was no where to go because we had repudiated everything else, and we blamed ourselves and believed in some degree what they said about us, because trust like the trust we had developed doesn't die easily.
So with that kind of devotion, that kind of us-against-the-world attitude, it is very very hard for us to start doubting the ones we thought were the good guys. Everything depended on our believing what the pastor or other leaders said. They and we had set the stakes so high that we had to hang on to the illusion. Think about it: we had believed that most of the other Christians were apostate or something like it. This was a matter of eternal life and death. If our guys were wrong, well, that was unthinkable.
Until the unthinkable happens and our good guys end up being very bad guys in disguise and the world comes crashing down.
ex-shep
05-13-2007, 05:58 PM
Ugh! Sicko!
Elisabeth, I think that the reason the abusers get in so deep in our psyches is because we had already bought into the fact that our church or our pastor or our little denomination was the only one that really (fill-in-the-blank)--taught biblical truth, or really worshipped God, or was pure, or was filled with the Spirit. Whatever the distinction--we all had it. I have been on this forum long enough to know that it wasn't just me. Whatever denomination or tradition or theology we have in this very diverse online community, we had each and all bought into the idea that there was something special about our churches. We had given over our judgment to some degree to the leadership of our churches. We had trusted them and felt it was them and us against the rest of the world.
Then when they turned on us, there was no where to go because we had repudiated everything else, and we blamed ourselves and believed in some degree what they said about us, because trust like the trust we had developed doesn't die easily.
Until the unthinkable happens and our good guys end up being very bad guys in disguise and the world comes crashing down.
There is the distinctive the only reality is the group itself. I get tired of the exclusivity of salvation. I was reading the leadership training manual of Tammy's former group. It had the audacity to imply that Christians were not Christlike and were failing at their mission. I would them to say that to the board of elder of the church I attend, the missions they support, and the seminaries which turn out pastors and see how the group leaders get. It almost smacks of the groups that say the church was in apastosy until they came along. I can understand the slow burn of the forum members.
SpinningHead
05-14-2007, 07:24 AM
You know, people can get away with the most bizarre things just because they claim that they are from God.
They're only getting away with it for a little while. They WILL face their maker! ;)
Read my Metro Airlines posts regarding the sexual harassment from a female bully. Go to members list, click "E", scroll to "ex-shep", Click links to all threads started by ex-shep. It was a twilight zone nightmare. The good news is that you are out and can look for a more healthy venue to worship and serve.
Thank you, Ex-Shep. :)
I did go to your Metro Airlines posts and read them... That was pretty bad. The Lord took care of you, though, and brought you through. For that, I am grateful.
At least, you had somewhere to go. It involved your livelihood, which is absolutely horrible when you are your family's (main) breadwinner. I'm so sorry you had to go through all that mess! :( :( :(
Mine involved a church situation, which on its face is not as bad as what you experienced. However, it was a "spiritual" thing, and this was a very Reformed denomination in which women are subject to men (their husbands, and the all-male pastoral and eldership authorities). "Pastor" was doing things and saying things to me that I knew were wrong, but I couldn't say anything to anyone, for I would have been excoriated and "not believed," as did happen when I eventually went to the elders and to Presbytery with the account of what "pastor" did and said. This was so even though what "pastor" was doing to me was being observed by other church members, including his wife. I'm in a marriage in which there has been physical abuse (but I think that's over with now), especially over the issue of my involvement with "pastor." Over the course of our marriage, other men have come around, kind of "hanging around" me too much or whatever, but I was able to get rid of them myself. "Pastor" was the first one that my husband really got angry about.
Why I'm trying to start a new mission congregation now, I don't know. Why should I ever trust a pastor again? Okay, Ex-Shep or whoever else reads this, according to Ezekiel 34, once we're the victim of a bad minister and we've become "scattered," are we supposed to try to gather ourselves under another earthly shepherd, or are we supposed to wait to be gathered by the Lord? Somehow, I think it's the latter... Maybe I shouldn't be embarking on this venture at all. One of my big reasons for doing this, though, is that I want to be in fellowship with other Christians again and I want other people to hear the kind of preaching and have the benefit of the kind of teaching that one gets from this kind of a church. As it is now, my husband and I "church-hop" on Sundays. Since Oct., 2005, we haven't had a "home." And we both want one. Our son isn't happy where he goes to church, but it's a big place where he just fades into the woodwork and it suits him for the time being.
I'm flummoxed, I guess. But the Lord will lead and all I need to do is follow my real Shepherd. I think, however, that He expects us to use the talents He gave us and not sit on them... Which is what I'm trying to do... :o :o :o
mary
Blownaway
05-14-2007, 08:59 AM
I have pondered Ezekiel 34 many times. I look at my own situation at our church and then look at scripture and think surely God won't leave this alone. There will be a payday and near the front of the line for payment will be those that were left in charge of His sheep. His last encounter with the disciples before He ascended was "if you love me, feed my sheep/lambs". There will be much required from them on that day. When I think of the manipulation, and the self-serving that goes on it makes me sick, but then I think about judgement day and then I usually calm down. This will be a bad ordeal!
ex-shep
05-14-2007, 09:09 AM
Why I'm trying to start a new mission congregation now, I don't know. Why should I ever trust a pastor again? Okay, Ex-Shep or whoever else reads this, according to Ezekiel 34, once we're the victim of a bad minister and we've become "scattered," are we supposed to try to gather ourselves under another earthly shepherd, or are we supposed to wait to be gathered by the Lord? Somehow, I think it's the latter... Maybe I shouldn't be embarking on this venture at all. One of my big reasons for doing this, though, is that I want to be in fellowship with other Christians again and I want other people to hear the kind of preaching and have the benefit of the kind of teaching that one gets from this kind of a church. As it is now, my husband and I "church-hop" on Sundays. Since Oct., 2005, we haven't had a "home." And we both want one. Our son isn't happy where he goes to church, but it's a big place where he just fades into the woodwork and it suits him for the time being.
I'm flummoxed, I guess. But the Lord will lead and all I need to do is follow my real Shepherd. I think, however, that He expects us to use the talents He gave us and not sit on them... Which is what I'm trying to do... :o :o :o
mary [/QUOTE]
It's a dirty job, but somebody has to do it. This is one area in the kingdom where the harvest is plentiful but the laborers are practically nonexistant.
I also like to reference to the parable of the good samaritan. I look at the victim of the parable as being one of us. I hate the WWJD cliche with a passion, but there is an element of truth there. Not too many lighthouses out there. We need all the help we can get.
It's a dirty job, but somebody has to do it. This is one area in the kingdom where the harvest is plentiful but the laborers are practically nonexistant.
I also like to reference to the parable of the good samaritan. I look at the victim of the parable as being one of us. I hate the WWJD cliche with a passion, but there is an element of truth there. Not too many lighthouses out there. We need all the help we can get.
Yep, it is a dirty job, isn't it? Ex-Shep and Blownaway, your encouragement means so much and I pray for both of you, as I pray for everyone here, every day. What a sheer and wonderful blessing this forum has been to me for the past year and a half!!!! Someone said to me that there must be "joy" in this church effort -- but I'm "not feelin' it." :( Not yet, anyway. I'm just so nervous about it and my various physical ailments are kicking up a huge fuss... Talk about being "a fool for Christ..." :o I'll have a literature table set up a week from tonight at our "meet and greet" gathering; we're basically all set for that but I have no idea how many will show up. We could have 5 - or 35. In any event, I'll have to report about it to the ministers who are coming in June. This is extremely nerve-wracking. But the Lord will provide.
At any rate, this is likely my last huge effort for the Lord. Can't let any part of it go to waste...
Love to all, and prayers,
mary
ex-shep
05-14-2007, 01:27 PM
Talk about being "a fool for Christ..."
I guess in Cleveland that makes me a mistake on the lake.
Erie thought, isn't it?!!
Elisabeth
05-14-2007, 02:09 PM
Talk about being "a fool for Christ..."
I guess in Cleveland that makes me a mistake on the lake.
Erie thought, isn't it?!!
You're in top form, Ex-Shep! :D
Talk about being "a fool for Christ..."
I guess in Cleveland that makes me a mistake on the lake.
Erie thought, isn't it?!!
Ah, we can have "Erie thoughts" now - because Erie doesn't smell like it used to, does it? ;) :) (Neither does the Cuyahoga River... :D - right, Ex-Shep?!)
No: no one of Christ's own, such as you are, can be "the mistake on the lake;" that was only Municipal Stadium, right? And now you have the gorgeous Jacobs Field, in which my family and I have spent many happy hours watching Chief Wahoo's boys... (May that mascot prevail!)
Elisabeth is right: you ARE in rare form today, Ex-Shep!!! :D :eek: :cool: :D Or is this the way your mind usually works? If so, your wife is one fortunate gal!!!!
(Speaking of Cleveland Municipal Stadium: I have never seen more mosquitoes in one place than I saw there during a game we went to in that stadium's last season... I didn't think mosquitoes made fortresses of themselves - but they do! :D We were sitting along the first base line, more towards right field... But -- Jacobs Field is very nice: the mosquitoes have not yet claimed squatters' rights there, to my knowledge!)
mary
areopa
05-14-2007, 03:19 PM
Why I'm trying to start a new mission congregation now, I don't know. Why should I ever trust a pastor again? Okay, Ex-Shep or whoever else reads this, according to Ezekiel 34, once we're the victim of a bad minister and we've become "scattered," are we supposed to try to gather ourselves under another earthly shepherd, or are we supposed to wait to be gathered by the Lord? Somehow, I think it's the latter... Maybe I shouldn't be embarking on this venture at all. One of my big reasons for doing this, though, is that I want to be in fellowship with other Christians again and I want other people to hear the kind of preaching and have the benefit of the kind of teaching that one gets from this kind of a church. As it is now, my husband and I "church-hop" on Sundays. Since Oct., 2005, we haven't had a "home." And we both want one. Our son isn't happy where he goes to church, but it's a big place where he just fades into the woodwork and it suits him for the time being.
Sadly, the gathering to which you refer to originally in Ezekiel 34 is supposed to be the Church under the terms of the New Covenant. What is sad is that the Church in America often now has become something which resembles the wickedness of the original shepherds of Israel that were judged.
I cannot speak to what your conscience would have you do--and you need to remember that the Spirit speaks to you as equally as He would to myself or others--but I can speak to the general biblical take on this particular question. What we cannot do is forsake "assemblying together" (Hebrews 10:25) because we've had such problems with wicked and/or abusive elders and ministers in the past. God is our Father and the Church is in some sense at least our Mother--very few of us would completely cut off ties with our Mother simply because she had sinned greviously against us. Even though some of us quite reasonably feel that there are more bad ministers out there than good, the Lord has not left his church without legitimate shepherds.
But, part of being involved with a new community will undoubtedly be to forgive those in your old community of faith--recognizing that we are human and forgiveness is a process and not just an immediate change of mind as to how you feel about someone--and if the new church is following Christ, this community itself will help you do this just by being able to participate in the legitimate life of the Body of Christ as the days go on.
It is good to see that you are thinking of your family as well here and we often forget that there are unintended consequences to being in abusive environments with regards to our children.
Church-hopping is one of the most trying experiences faithful Christians can go through and it is a wilderness experience all its own. A sheep was never designed to move from flock to flock for its entire life. My advice is to settle into a good community of believers as soon as you can but finding the right one can be sooooooo difficult. Sometimes you may have the luxury of working with other Christians to start a new congregation. For those not so blessed, here are a few things to consider when trying to find a new church:
1) Ask as many faithful believers you know about where a church is that you can grow. Trust your brothers and sisters in Christ, but more than that trust your own God-given sense of intuition. Remember Christ is within you and that the Holy Spirit speaks to you as much as to anyone else.
2) Do not pay too much attention to differences in worship style and/or programs offered--bad elders exist in every denomination and style or culture will not keep them away (however, there are certain environments that can lend themselves to a more autocratic and abusive temperament, obviously)
3) Make sure you find a community where the Bible is taught--but more than that look for a church where the Bible taught is actually the Bible lived by both members and elders in a gracious and charitable way (ie. non-oppressive).
4) Do not join a new church for some months or even a year after you have been there. If you are pressured to join, leave immediately and go elsewhere even if it means another year of finding the right place.
5) Actively involve yourself in the lives of the members of a potential congregation. Invite several families over for dinner while you are considering membership and ask them about Christ and how He impacts their lives. If they (or the majority of them) talk all about their pastor and the leadership instead of Christ. Say goodbye and leave as politely as possible from the church.
6) Look for churches that are multicultural if at all possible (in certain areas of the country, this is almost impossible to find) as well as a church that values varied traditions in the church. Elders behaving badly almost always have one black-and-white view of how the world works and are exceptionally bad at tolerating other viewpoints. The Church has existed in a variety of cultures and environments in her two-thousand year history and our worship, liturgy, music, and life should reflect that diversity or we are not functioning as the Church of the Ages. Now, by diversity, I do not mean find a church which is operating out of the normal creedal/scriptural bounds of orthodox Christianity--so please don't misunderstand me--but there is a legitimate amount of diversity in and among Christians as our history rolls forward. If elders can't respect that, the church isn't worth joining.
7) Look for a congregation that highly values a wide tradition of arts and music. Churches that focus almost exclusively on doctrine or on their particular understanding of doctrine are limiting and dangerous (or put something in the place of "doctrine" above--one issue churches are not being churches as the Bible has called them to be). Correspondingly, churches which do not have outlets for ministry by laypeople are seedbeds for authoritarian elders who abuse the flock.
8) If and when you meet with elders or ministers about joining their congregation--and many of them are quite sincere and flattering when speaking to you in this way--ask them how things will be when--not if--you disagree with them about a matter. Ask how is disagreement handled in the church? If you are at all unsatisfied with their answer or if there is just down in the deep part of your soul the sort of pang that says, "Run!"--no matter how much you want to be a part of that church--RUN. Go with your intuition and the work of the Spirit in your own heart and soul every time and do not bow to any pressuring.
9) Finding a new church is hard work. But so is being engaged and getting married. You should look at the two different scenarios as analogous. You are joining a community where men will baptize your children, where the most precious people in the world to you will hang on their every word, where your daughters and sons will one day kiss their future brides or husbands after the minister proclaims them married, and on and on it goes. These brothers and sisters in Christ are supposed to become brothers and sisters to you in a sense that ultimately will prove--by the power of God through the Spirit--to be stronger than normal biological or social family bonds. Don't cheat yourself by being in too much of a hurry. Look hard and long at the church you're proposing to marry your own family to and God will bless the painful hard work that it will be to get to the point where you can be comfortable that this is where God wants you to be.
Hopefully, some of these things will help those looking for a church. The list is by no means exhaustive and I'm sure I could come up with more things to either watch out for or make sure a church has under its belt.
One other thing, and I didn't mean to type this big of a message(!), but you asked why you should ever trust a pastor again. I can't give you the reason behind the answer--but I can tell you that there is a respect due the office of elder/pastor/minister like the respect we give the President.
But the right respect beyond that--the kind that allows you to place your life and the lives of your family in his hands--due an elder ALWAYS is EARNED. Not given by default and any minister that demands respect that is unearned is no minister worth following.
The Lord bless you and yours in this difficult time,
Rev. Kevin D. Johnson
Dear Rev. Johnson,
Thank you so much for your detailed, thoughtful and kind reply...
It certainly makes a lot of sense not to join something if you're "pressured" into it. Actually, the last church we joined - the one I was pitched from - we joined unwittingly. The deal was that they had a "closed" communion: you had to interview with Session if you wanted to take communion. We'd only been attending there for a few months and had no intention of joining yet. We just wanted to participate in the Lord's Supper, and I told "pastor" that. "Session" interviewed us - and then, they welcomed us into membership! My husband and I were shocked. We hadn't intended to join, but we decided to make the best of it. That turned out to be a big mistake. We should have seen the red flag, flying as big as life in a stiff breeze.
My new church effort involves trying to bring a whole new denomination to my metropolitan area that consists of a few million people. This new mission congregation, if it gets going, will be unique to this area in its doctrinal and worship practices and I'm finding that there are a number of people interested. I don't see why the Lord is allowing me to do it, but I'm open to doing anything that results in His getting the glory...
You're absolutely right that church-hopping is no fun. I absolutely hate it and I want to be done with it as soon as possible. I don't think we'll ever again be in the position of being duped into joining a church; we'd do it the right way the next time. We also don't want to wind up somewhere un-Biblical... The world, even the "church world," has so little tolerance for clear, Biblical preaching and teaching. That's why to me, your sermon was such a breath (really a blast!) of fresh air.
Fortunately for us, we live in an area in which it's not difficult at all to "go multicultural." That's one thing we have going for us.
We'd like to find a place in which our young adult son could also worship, and maybe meet a young Christian lady... and get married. :)
I came out of Catholicism (raised in it, educated in it for over 16 years, beyond my first bachelor's degree and into a graduate theology program at a Jesuit university) and so I was certainly comfortable with the idea of the respect due to a pastor. The fact is that one treated me like absolute garbage for years; I thought I deserved it because he said I did - and as I had bad experiences with both parents, this was like "the last straw." A year and a half out, no, I'm not totally recovered. Even though I know I'm saved and my name is written with others' in the Lamb's Book of Life, there's still a part of me that doesn't feel "good enough" to be in church, with other Christians. I don't feel "good enough" to join anywhere and I don't know that I ever will. I pray about that. I'm definitely a "scattered sheep" now.
Thank you again, Rev. Johnson... I know we're thousands of miles apart, but your sermon and your posts have made me feel somewhat "fellowshipped" again. Thank you for that!
Yours in our Lord Jesus Christ,
mary
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