Interesting thing I thought of

[Elisabeth]

I had been spiritually abused so badly in that one church, I didn't even recognize what I went through in another as spiritual abuse. It left it's mark on me, though.

When my husband and I were first married, we were going to this very large church across the street from our apartment complex. He dropped out after a month though. He also started smoking pot again. I kept going to the church, hoping that he would come back.

Nobody there was my friend. :eek: I was a married woman whose husband had dropped out of the church and I couldn't get him back. So I was pretty well shunned by the other couples. :mad: They believed mostly in counseling by the leaders of the church, not outside counseling, so I went for counseling with my Sunday School teacher who was also an assistant pastor for that church. I told him about the abuse that I had experienced from my previous pastor, but I didn't really realize that it was abuse, so I said it was an affair. He said that he could see how that could happen; pastors are usually nice to be with, they're friendly, well groomed, dress nice, smell nice. A part of my mind wondered if he was trying out! :eek: :eek: I also mentioned about my husband, about our marital problems, and about the pot. He told me that I should really think about it, realize it was illegal; he wasn't saying I should turn him in, but really think about what I was doing. :( :mad: He asked me about my church background other than the pastor who abused me, and I mentioned that I spent some time in an Assembly of God church. He asked me if I believed in tongues and prophesy. I said yes, and he dropped the subject, and I thought that was it. Then on Sunday, in Sunday School (a class of about 20 to 30 couples, BTW) he started in on how he doesn't believe in tongues and prophesy, how he knew that some of us might have been taught differently, but... Then he went through why he didn't believe in tongues and prophesy! :mad: :mad: I felt picked on. By the time I left that church, my husband's and my marriage had almost dissolved, mostly because of that church, their teachings, and the fact that he was the one who had me going there. :( When I left, our marriage started improving within months.

[DiligentLily]

It is so great when in our healing we can go back through other incidents that we had pushed to the back of our mind, and realize the abuse there! That has happened for me a lot since joining this forum. And this place is such a wonderful safe place to talk about these things.

Good for you remembering that and identifying it!

[abbey]

Boy E, you have been thru the mill regarding weirdo churches and SA! May I ask, are you in a healthy church now? I am and it makes a world of difference! I feel free and at ease with my new found church!:D Not that I suggest where to go, but I am attending a Church of God. It quitely worships with just piano and voices. No weirdo tongues ( i know you believe in that, I do too, BUT what abused in a charasmatic church so gotta stay away ATM) No fire and brimestone, pastors veins popping out of his neck preaching. Just a gentle, balanced worship and teaching.

Hows your church now?

[Elisabeth]

Boy E, you have been thru the mill regarding weirdo churches and SA! May I ask, are you in a healthy church now? I am and it makes a world of difference! I feel free and at ease with my new found church!:D Not that I suggest where to go, but I am attending a Church of God. It quitely worships with just piano and voices. No weirdo tongues ( i know you believe in that, I do too, BUT what abused in a charasmatic church so gotta stay away ATM) No fire and brimestone, pastors veins popping out of his neck preaching. Just a gentle, balanced worship and teaching.

Hows your church now?

We're in a good church. We'll be moving to a different community soon, about 35 miles away from where we currently live, and I'm a little nervous about going to a different church. This is particularly so because it's the same community that my SA church is in.(the one where the pastor actually sexually abused me.) :eek: But there is a new church going to start up in late June, and I'm wanting to get involved in that. I've e-mailed the pastor, and he seems really nice! :)

[Elisabeth]

I realized something else. The pastor that sexually abused me blamed me, and one of the things he said was, "Well you brought that (sexuality) up, what did you expect would happen?" :mad: When I said that I brought it up because I thought that you could go to a pastor with your problems problems, he said "Spiritual problems!" So I blamed myself for it, because I brought up the subject myself, and I would bring up the subject of sexuality with other pastors to try to prove that I did nothing wrong by bringing up that subject. If another pastor told me that he didn't feel all that comfortable talking about it, or that he didn't have enough training, or cut me short, which was really almost all my pastors, then the self blame would snowball. :( :(

But I realized, I really didn't do anything wrong by bringing up the subject. I had brought up a lot of spiritual problems, too, including the fact I wasn't sure I was saved, and also the subject of baptism, and the pastor who abused me should have said to me, when I brought the subject of sexuality up, "I can advise you on your spiritual problems, but I'm not comfortable with this." But he didn't do that. Instead, he told me to come talk to him anytime about anything on my mind; to not be afraid to. :mad: :mad: I was only 23! I honestly thought he was wanting to help me! But, he admitted later, he was enjoying hearing me talk about it from the very first. :mad: :mad: So he used me, and then blamed me just because I trusted him when he said I could talk to him. :mad: :mad: :( :(

[Elisabeth]

I'm kind of thinking, perhaps one of the reasons why spiritual abuse is so prevalent in our church society, and why so many ministers get away with it, is because in our church society we tend to put ministers on a pedestal. So many people look at their ministers with "blinders" on, and if something is said, they tend to be "oh, it's not so bad." If really bad sh-- is brought up about the minister, then the person who brings it up is controlled by a demon! I mean, the pastor couldn't have done that kind of thing.

And the putting ministers on a pedestal has another bad consequence - people who want to be put on pedestals go into ministry. We have been talking about narcisstic personalities; ministry does tend to attract them just because of that.

And all this is nothing new. Part of Martin Luther's theses dealt with the fact that Christianity was being destroyed by the very ones who were supposed to protect it! Priests, instead of preaching the Word of God, were corrupt. The only defense against this is God, and knowing, and doing, His word.

[DiligentLily]

I'm kind of thinking, perhaps one of the reasons why spiritual abuse is so prevalent in our church society, and why so many ministers get away with it, is because in our church society we tend to put ministers on a pedestal. So many people look at their ministers with "blinders" on, and if something is said, they tend to be "oh, it's not so bad." If really bad sh-- is brought up about the minister, then the person who brings it up is controlled by a demon! I mean, the pastor couldn't have done that kind of thing.

And the putting ministers on a pedestal has another bad consequence - people who want to be put on pedestals go into ministry. We have been talking about narcisstic personalities; ministry does tend to attract them just because of that.

And all this is nothing new. Part of Martin Luther's theses dealt with the fact that Christianity was being destroyed by the very ones who were supposed to protect it! Priests, instead of preaching the Word of God, were corrupt. The only defense against this is God, and knowing, and doing, His word.

Elisabeth, I think we should have a whole new thread to talk about why this is happening. One friend of my husband's says that church is run by the people who show up! :D It's true! You don't have to be particularly mature or insightful or healthy, you just have to show up and want to run things.

There's also a parable in the bible about the trees getting together to decide who will rule over them. It's here in Judges 9, and starts at verse 7 (http://bibleresources.bible.com/passagesearchresults.php?passage1=Judges+9&version=9). One of the points of the story is that all the good and fruitful trees had better things to do than become king of the trees and 'wave over them all'. The only one that would agree to become king was the bramble.

I think it's like that now, (maybe especially in independant churches where ordination may not be so rigorous as it is in more hierarchical churches--but I'm not putting down that sort of church structure at all). People who like having authority over other people, and who are good at managing the religious bureaucracy are the ones who end up running things.

[DiligentLily]

I very much hope I didn't offend anyone by mentioning a particular kind of church being more susceptible to abuse. I don't favor any one over any other. I think it depends mostly upon the hearts of the people there, more than anything else.

[mary]

I don't think most seminaries care anymore whether someone has a real calling to be a minister. They just want the warm bodies and the bucks, or pounds.

I don't think seminaries care whether someone already admitted exhibits "good fruit" or "fruit of the Spirit" or what he does on the weekends or whatever. They don't care what they put in pulpits anymore. Men with narcissistic personality disorder (but without the Spirit of the Lord Jesus Christ dwelling in them) routinely make it into pulpits and more often than not, find enough "co-dependents" to have a good-sized congregation going for years and years.

The only healthy ones, really, are those who flee these sick places or get thrown out for "insubordination."

WE are the healthy ones.

mary

[DiligentLily]

The only healthy ones, really, are those who flee these sick places or get thrown out for "insubordination."

WE are the healthy ones.

mary

I think that's right!

Recently a co-dependant of my abusers told me that it's wrong to call it spiritual abuse--that I'm being too hard on my abusers because as the co-dependant said, "They are highly respected in the community."

That one through me for a loop for a while, until I remembered that their community is absolutely miniscule, and that a couple of dozen or more healthier families and people have left the church over the years since I knew them. I think that all that's left there must be all the co-dependants.

[Jerry]

I don't think seminaries care whether someone already admitted exhibits "good fruit" or "fruit of the Spirit" [/COLOR]

Yes Mary,,,,
Seminaries miss the point that "Fruit" is ALL it is about,,,,,,,,It's all about "Figs" ;) ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,Jer 24 vs 1-10 ;) ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,Selah
Love Jerry

[Jerry]

Interesting point of trivia ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,Two kinds of "Figs" grow in the Middle East,,,,,,,there is the "Sweet Fig" which is a wonderful fruit :p YUM !!!.....and the "Goat Fig" which of course,tastes like crap :eek: :( ......Both kinds of "Figs" look the same,taste is the only way to tell the difference. Jer 24 is an "Agricultural Metaphor" .........................

[Elisabeth]

My hubby is wanting to get involved in a certain church when we move, and as I have mentioned before, I want to get involved in a church start up in the area. I realized that the reason why I don't want to get involved in the church he wants to get involved with is partly because it does remind me quite a bit, in what I've heard and read, to the spiritually abusive church that I started this thread talking about. And a lot of that spiritual abuse was related to the fact that my hubby didn't go to church. And one of the doctrines of the church that Hubby wants to get involved with is a doctrine of separation which states in part "Separation from all worldly and sinful pleasure and practices is commanded by God. We further believe that the Scriptures plainly teach that Christians should not marry or have other entangling alliances with unbelievers; that Christians should not fellowship with those who deny the faith." Do you think that this church would be really open to accepting a woman and her hubby when her hubby goes to church for awhile, then doesn't want anything to do with God for awhile, and has other problems? I could be wrong, but I'm not sure I would be totally accepted in that church. I don't think I'm willing to take that chance, and I know it would be a strain on the marriage if I felt that people weren't accepting me in church because hubby wasn't always beside me.

[DiligentLily]

My hubby is wanting to get involved in a certain church when we move, and as I have mentioned before, I want to get involved in a church start up in the area. I realized that the reason why I don't want to get involved in the church he wants to get involved with is partly because it does remind me quite a bit, in what I've heard and read, to the spiritually abusive church that I started this thread talking about. And a lot of that spiritual abuse was related to the fact that my hubby didn't go to church. And one of the doctrines of the church that Hubby wants to get involved with is a doctrine of separation which states in part "Separation from all worldly and sinful pleasure and practices is commanded by God. We further believe that the Scriptures plainly teach that Christians should not marry or have other entangling alliances with unbelievers; that Christians should not fellowship with those who deny the faith." Do you think that this church would be really open to accepting a woman and her hubby when her hubby goes to church for awhile, then doesn't want anything to do with God for awhile, and has other problems? I could be wrong, but I'm not sure I would be totally accepted in that church. I don't think I'm willing to take that chance, and I know it would be a strain on the marriage if I felt that people weren't accepting me in church because hubby wasn't always beside me.

Lizzy, dear, I think you're asking exactly the wrong question. Don't ask what these people will think of you. What really matters is what you think of them. It sounds very much to me like what you think of them is that they're not safe to be around.There is no reason in the world you should go to a group of judgmental, elitist, xenophobic control freaks and hope they accept you. If they want new members, they should be be the ones auditioning for your approval, not the other way around. You need to remind yourself over and over again that you are a child of the king, and deserve to be treated with respect. You are worthy of anybody. Don't sell yourself short.

[Elisabeth]

Lizzy, dear, I think you're asking exactly the wrong question. Don't ask what these people will think of you. What really matters is what you think of them. It sounds very much to me like what you think of them is that they're not safe to be around.There is no reason in the world you should go to a group of judgmental, elitist, xenophobic control freaks and hope they accept you. If they want new members, they should be be the ones auditioning for your approval, not the other way around. You need to remind yourself over and over again that you are a child of the king, and deserve to be treated with respect. You are worthy of anybody. Don't sell yourself short.

Thanks Lily! Yeah, I'm not sure about these people, and when we talked to a couple that visited us in our home it was, well pastor thinks this and pastor thinks that, to the point that alarm bells were going off in my mind. Not to mention they were talking about rules and not having stuff to do with any interdenominational movements because they don't want people to bring in stuff they learned in other churches. Sounded way too strict for me!