Some thoughts about spiritual abuse

[Elisabeth]

I was just thinking about how a lot of people have a hard time considering sexual abuse by clergy abuse if the woman was of age and "consented" - even if the pastor was supposedly counseling her, and then it hit me; a lot of people have a hard time understanding spiritual abuse in general. You would think that committed Christians would realize that if a leader treats someone as a sub-human in the name of Christ, that person has committed spiritual abuse, but I don't think that very many Christians have really thought about that if they haven't been in a spiritually abusive situation or known somebody who has. It's so different to think in a nebulous level "There are false teachers out there," and really know what false teachers can do to a person's soul. :( :( :( So it tends to be very hard for a survivor of spiritual abuse to find people in their new church to understand what they've been through, as I am sure most of the people on this forum have experienced.

When a Christian does get into a spiritually abusive situation, it tends to be like the frog in the boiling water bit. You throw a frog into boiling water; he jumps out. You put a frog into cold water, then you can heat up the water and the frog will stay and get boiled. When a false teacher takes over a church, he knows not to get too off the wall at first. He lets the congregation get acclimated to him, and he to them, then he starts introducing his false teachings, carefully cloaked in scripture. When a new person comes, either they realize something is wrong, and leave, or they are naive enough to join up. All the time, the pastor also makes his congregation feel special, or something, to help keep them there. Then when a person has his or her eyes open, and says that this person is not godly, the others think down on that person, and group to the pastor even more so. :( :( :( So it's even harder to get the pastor out, and even harder to convince people to leave the church. So the cycle continues.

There is only one thing that can really work, really make a difference - prayer. Throwing the false teacher, abusive pastor, out can be an answer, if enough people in the congregation finally realize what is going on, but it's hard to get enough people to realize that. No, realizing that God is over all and through all, and bathing everything in prayer, and letting God work, is the only answer. I have spent so many years in anger, confusion, not knowing who God is and who I am, so this is also a statement of faith from me, saying I will trust Him to work in His own way in my own situation. A burden that is almost 20 years old has been lifted off my shoulders. :D :D

[hornblower]

You know I am coming to the thought that everything is about prayer. You know where Jesus got the whip out...........in the temple and he was fighting mad and why? Because His Fathers house is a house of what???????????????????????????????
Prayer!
The question is what is real prayer?
That is what I think I am to learn.
If you can help me learn it and please dont tell me about a book unless there is absolutely no other way. Anyway Id like to hear more. Elizabeth?

[Elisabeth]

You know I am coming to the thought that everything is about prayer. You know where Jesus got the whip out...........in the temple and he was fighting mad and why? Because His Fathers house is a house of what???????????????????????????????
Prayer!
The question is what is real prayer?
That is what I think I am to learn.
If you can help me learn it and please dont tell me about a book unless there is absolutely no other way. Anyway Id like to hear more. Elizabeth?

I think real prayer is prayer when you totally surrender to God. I have heard about different forms, such as ACTS (adoration, confession, thanksgiving, and supplication), but, when it comes down to it, prayer is worship, and it's time in the throne room between you and God. I've heard that prayer is a conversation; it's that, and more. I hope I'm making at least a little sense here. :D :D

[Elisabeth]

I just thought about something more to add to my original post. I have never really been able to pray about this situation, to really give it to God before - and that's something else that prayer is, Hornblower, giving it to God - because of the mechanics of spiritual abuse. I had been "programmed", and believed that "programming", for so long that the place was a place of God and that pastor was a person of God, that when I realized contrary, I was confused about how I should pray. It was like, going to God about it with a realization of how things really were, and praying in that frame, was wrong somehow. I realize now that's part of the twenty year old recording that had snared me in the first place. Out, stupid recording! :D

[Carmen]

Good for you, Elisabeth! :D

I think that good churches don't let the pastor have too much authority, that pastors have to be accountable for what they do and not above anyone else.

What you described is more like the way the world works and not how churches should work.

I think prayer is the right answer. Take a look at Psalms 139-141 that is what I am praying right now in my situation. God'll sick'em for us, he can do it a lot better too. I still speak out against what has been done to me, but there is no guarantee that it will have any effect.

[Anna Marta]

You know I am coming to the thought that everything is about prayer. You know where Jesus got the whip out...........in the temple and he was fighting mad and why? Because His Fathers house is a house of what???????????????????????????????
Prayer!
The question is what is real prayer?
That is what I think I am to learn.
If you can help me learn it and please dont tell me about a book unless there is absolutely no other way. Anyway Id like to hear more. Elizabeth?

Dearest HB,

You hit the nail right on the head! Indeed, what is real prayer and how do we discover that answer? I can only speak for me and I am no professional, except maybe a professional in struggling with the same kind of thing. :)

I don' think there is such a thing as real prayer anymore than there is such a thing as real conversation. There are different kinds of prayer... there are different ways to pray... BUT - it is all REAL prayer because God hears it all. He even hears the sighs of prayer from deep within me that I can't even put words to.

The problem of prayer, in my life has been mine - not God's. I have had so many times when I felt like my prayer/conversation time (talking to God and listening for his answer) was like talking into the wind. It was like the sound of my voice dissipated into the wind and was lost "out there" somewhere. I listened and heard - nothing... Sometimes it is still like that, if I were to be honest with you. When I examine those times, I think they were when I TOLD God to do or not to do something (according to my wishes) then waited for him to tell me how right I was and that he would take care of my request - immediately!

The most "beneficial to me" prayer times have happened when I prayed with a pen in my hand. I write my heart out and then listen to my thoughts and begin to write what I am thinking about and as I write and write I can begin to hear and feel the Holy Spirit breaking through my facade. Does this work for everyone? I have absolutely NO idea! Do I always pray this way? No...

I babble a lot of prayers. I can pray myself to sleep by thinking of all of those who I love and remembering them before God. I pray when I wash my face and look in the mirror at the list of person's taped there. (If you make our bathroom mirror you have to be in a REAL bad way!) I pray when I sit with my devotional book and write out the scripture that spoke to me. I pray when I sit on the toilet and read Steinar's Norwegian devotional book that sits on the shelf next to the throne. I have read Psalms and wished that God would do what David asked to his enemies. I have read other scriptures and asked God to make me like that or to show me what it means in my life. I like the whip in the temple story too! Sure am glad I wasn't helping with a church bazaar when the happened by. JOKE :D

The hardest prayers for me are those that I do NOT mean in my heart. They are the ones that I tell God that I am praying out of obedience to his word and that if left to me I would prefer not to say... I am honest and ask him to do some of the things for me because I don't mean them, but I know he can handle it. These are forgiveness prayers! Do they help? Poop, I don't know, I still don't like many of those people and don't want them in my life!! But then, I don't have to like them or have anything to do with them, do I? I only have to ask God to forgive them and help me to do the same. Then it's up to him. With some of these people my heart has softened over time, especially if they die. With others, well - let's not go there... but I can at least I can say I don't hate them anymore... ;)

Here is a "catch" for me, I often do not record when God does answer concretely in a situation or through a person or a song or a book or a scripture SO THAT later on I forget how many answers and things God has done in reply. Truthfully in my worst moments, I can - when I am desperate - pray as if he had never done a thing for me or ever heard me ever before!

Put all together... after having read too many books, heard too many teachings and tried many correct ways... I have come to the personal conclusion (as stated in the beginning) that all prayer is REAL. And that all prayer is more for MY benefit than for God's needing to be told or informed of something or other. I think he wants me to be in relationship with him and communication is the foundation of all relationships.

Hope this was not too rambling... Thanks for giving me the chance to put my thoughts in order.

Love
Anna Marta

[InTheory]

Great ideas, all! Spiritual abuse is pervasive in churches, and sadly I think that the "perps" probably don't believe that they are abusers-I think that most of them think their sh*t don't stink, so to speak, and think that they're "above the law." Hence the double standards, prevarications, and so on.
Carmen, to your point, you're right-good churches hold pastors accountable (I haven't seen many of them, and am too weary to try anymore).
I do politely disagree with your contention about "more like the world works."

In my observation, the world holds leaders (particularly in business and the like) much more accountable than the church. Also, leaders are not generally given the God-like status that are afforded in churches.

Just my two-cents.

Take care all!

:) Dan

Good for you, Elisabeth! :D

I think that good churches don't let the pastor have too much authority, that pastors have to be accountable for what they do and not above anyone else.

What you described is more like the way the world works and not how churches should work.

I think prayer is the right answer. Take a look at Psalms 139-141 that is what I am praying right now in my situation. God'll sick'em for us, he can do it a lot better too. I still speak out against what has been done to me, but there is no guarantee that it will have any effect.

[mary]

I was just thinking about how a lot of people have a hard time considering sexual abuse by clergy abuse if the woman was of age and "consented" - even if the pastor was supposedly counseling her, and then it hit me; a lot of people have a hard time understanding spiritual abuse in general. You would think that committed Christians would realize that if a leader treats someone as a sub-human in the name of Christ, that person has committed spiritual abuse, but I don't think that very many Christians have really thought about that if they haven't been in a spiritually abusive situation or known somebody who has. It's so different to think in a nebulous level "There are false teachers out there," and really know what false teachers can do to a person's soul. :( :( :( So it tends to be very hard for a survivor of spiritual abuse to find people in their new church to understand what they've been through, as I am sure most of the people on this forum have experienced.

When a Christian does get into a spiritually abusive situation, it tends to be like the frog in the boiling water bit. You throw a frog into boiling water; he jumps out. You put a frog into cold water, then you can heat up the water and the frog will stay and get boiled. When a false teacher takes over a church, he knows not to get too off the wall at first. He lets the congregation get acclimated to him, and he to them, then he starts introducing his false teachings, carefully cloaked in scripture. When a new person comes, either they realize something is wrong, and leave, or they are naive enough to join up. All the time, the pastor also makes his congregation feel special, or something, to help keep them there. Then when a person has his or her eyes open, and says that this person is not godly, the others think down on that person, and group to the pastor even more so. :( :( :( So it's even harder to get the pastor out, and even harder to convince people to leave the church. So the cycle continues.

There is only one thing that can really work, really make a difference - prayer. Throwing the false teacher, abusive pastor, out can be an answer, if enough people in the congregation finally realize what is going on, but it's hard to get enough people to realize that. No, realizing that God is over all and through all, and bathing everything in prayer, and letting God work, is the only answer. I have spent so many years in anger, confusion, not knowing who God is and who I am, so this is also a statement of faith from me, saying I will trust Him to work in His own way in my own situation. A burden that is almost 20 years old has been lifted off my shoulders. :D :D

Dear Elisabeth,

How timely and cogent your words are to me! I am going to download your post.

The reason your post is so timely is that "my" new church effort is getting up and running now. Ministers will soon come here to visit and to decide whether to go full speed ahead with a mission congregation here. This is mostly my effort; although my husband has put some work into it via contacts from work and Bible studies, it's mostly been my project.

I have a big problem, though: in the next few weeks, at some point, I am going to have to let these people in on "what happened" at the old church. I'm not going to do it in an e-mail; I don't even really want to do it over the phone. This is, I think, something that has to be done in person. The ministers are coming here in a month.

What do you say to a minister who asks what happened? I've given a brief sketch to two of them of other denominations, and they were not helpful or comforting. The general attitude of these two very different pastors was that I must be at fault, and even if there was fault on the part of the minister, this must never be spoken of. The person I have to tell is acquainted with the man who did the things to me. The entire subject is so hurtful to my husband that really bad things happen when anything even remotely related to it comes up. It's only been a year and a half...

>>I'm crying; stupid me<< :( :( :( "Father, if it be Thy will, let this cup pass..."

mary

[hornblower]

You know Mary I dont know what it was that happened to you so I cant be a judge of it at all but just reading this Im so angry at these ministers.........Im having a hard time understanding why you would have anything to do with them at ALL!
If they react that way and are not on your side then thats all it would take for me.
Ok so Im alone most of the time.
Id rather be!
If I have to put up with that crap again ...........no way hosea its not my Jesus!
Wrong is wrong thats just the way it is. Authority doing it doesnt make a wrong be right. God is right and what He says is right! WE are the SHEEP of HIS pasture not theirs!
Remember what Jesus said about them?
A false shepherd comes to abuse the sheep but not Jesus He is the good shepherd!
Why have anything to do with any of it?
Ok I hope Im not going to get in big time trouble here and I most certainly dont want to try to tell anybody what to do but heres my take on things. Once you start getting into the hierarchy of building up a church sooner or later your going to have to deal with personalities and egos...............and unfortunately there it is in all its glory................the sin nature big time.

Ive let it go. Its Gods church if He wants it to be built He will build it, not me! This is what I was doing when I got so hurt. Hopefully that is the last time it will ever happen to me if not I will have to learn this same darn lesson all over again.
The church is not a business..........its not something that I can do...........its not something I can succesfully die for..............its not anything I think it is................its not my idea...........its HIS.
Im not in any way shape or form saying dont go to church and dont have anything to do with it Im just saying be warey of what the world thinks of the church..........the world is deceived in their views and always will be until God sets us right we will not be right in any way shape or form.

These men............they want a job............if it were not so they would know you and understand you and would love you and comfort you because that is Jesus............we are to be made in HIS likeness not more submission to authority likeness..........HIs likeness is meek and humble He is a comforter first and foremost.
When I tell my story to anyone if I dont see that spark of a tear coming that way of looking at me like Oh No! How can such a thing happen?............I chalk it up to these things..........they have never been through any of this.............why havent they? One friend i have its simple shes a little mouse that cannot speak at all shes so damaged..........but she says she loves me and she is the one that told me get out of there but I didnt.

Then the others..........like one friend that constantly takes up for the church...............shes steeped into traditions been there all of her life but alas she tries to find some truth for herself although she is for the most part very confused.......the main thing is that she loves those people and I forgive her because her heart is right, we should love them. I love them too.
If its a minister that treats me this way..........Im polite but I never speak to him again.........he is decieved he may not even know the Lord...........he is one of them and hes trying to hide sin and corruption, no way hosea, no more am I going to cater to him or any of them in any way shape or form.

THEY ARE NOT MY HUSBAND and they surely are not my God. For me this is where I am a doer of the word........I see that my husband is smart in these things he smells a rat out far better than I do because hes a man himself and he knows about business dealings..........he wont go to church why should I? If God wants it to change then God has my permission to change my husband. My husband is not perfect but it is to him that I am to submit not these silly men that treat me that way.

Mary I love you and I dont want to see you hurt again. I dont know what you are doing right now in helping build this church but it sounds like your husband sees this the right way. I would take all of this to him and tell him about it and ask him what he thinks? Maybe youve already done that, maybe Im way off base here probably am I should shut up right? Sorry Im just worried about you and Im near tears for you.
Why should Mary cry?
Why arent they crying??????????????????????

[hornblower]

Anna

The problem of prayer, in my life has been mine - not God's. I have had so many times when I felt like my prayer/conversation time (talking to God and listening for his answer) was like talking into the wind. It was like the sound of my voice dissipated into the wind and was lost "out there" somewhere. I listened and heard - nothing... Sometimes it is still like that, if I were to be honest with you. When I examine those times, I think they were when I TOLD God to do or not to do something (according to my wishes) then waited for him to tell me how right I was and that he would take care of my request - immediately!



Lol I can dig this big time.............going through it this morning too. I forgave my husband for our horrid fight the week former and then prayed god go ahead and get him his silly car and make it be everything he will love..............God did just that got him just the thing and on his birthday too.................I should have been happy right......it mad me so depressed.............ayvey!
Me and my stupid sinful self so completely selfish to the core.
Now he might be loosing his job another prayer of mine that is ongoing..........I dont know somethings not right at his job and I keep on telling him this its something I feel inside when I pray...........we have to make plans and something has got to change for our next move etc...........if he stays where he is then we have to stay where we are. It doesnt jive.

Im no different when I work than my husband is completely loyal to my employer and no matter how bad things are i just keep on staying sort of like being boiled to death like that frog. Im sure God tries to get us to see the light but we are such fearful little creatures we cant hear over all of our own noise..........even if we did hear we wouldnt do what we are told anyway.......because we are way too chicken.

As my Stevens minister always says God is always talking to me... I just dont want to listen.............so true so true.

My last church I was in prayed constantly.........al night all day............he believed in prayer for sure..........they were praying for the right thing too..............for the Holy Spirit to move on the hearts of men.

When you think about it you dont see much of this going on anywhere in churches..........maybe Im wrong.........I would have stayed at that church too but they were way off in other areas so I had to leave before they got to to me............ my little friend wasnt so lucky. She stayed and was destroyed by them. All over a parking space??????????

[SpinningHead]

a lot of people have a hard time understanding spiritual abuse in general. You would think that committed Christians would realize that if a leader treats someone as a sub-human in the name of Christ, that person has committed spiritual abuse, but I don't think that very many Christians have really thought about that if they haven't been in a spiritually abusive situation or known somebody who has.

When a Christian does get into a spiritually abusive situation, it tends to be like the frog in the boiling water bit.

I think these are very observant points!

Christians also don't want to believe that spiritual abuse could happen in their church. They don't want to believe that they could possibly be following an abuser because they want to believe that they are mature enough or aware enough to see an abuser and stop it. They certainly wouldn't want to admit that they have enabled an abuser to be abusive. And most important, they wouldn't want to admit they themselves are "spritually nieve" enough that they themselves are being abused. I think all these have to do with ego. :(

I love your second point about the frog...I think a victim is often wooed into an abusee's position. :( I rarely think it happens overnight...an abuser has to get you to agree with the abuse to make you stay in that situation. That takes a lot of time and wooing. :(

[Ladybug]

Anna Marta,

"The most "beneficial to me" prayer times have happened when I prayed with a pen in my hand. I write my heart out and then listen to my thoughts and begin to write what I am thinking about and as I write and write I can begin to hear and feel the Holy Spirit breaking through my facade. Does this work for everyone? I have absolutely NO idea! Do I always pray this way? No... "

I find for me when I keep my Prayer & Praise notebook, I can look back and see how the Lord has or hasn't answered prayer. I can also times where I've been close to Him and where I have drifted. For me when I am writing this helps me to stay focused and my mind doesn't wonder.

Another reason I keep these notebooks is for a witness to the next generation in how my relationship was with the Lord.

I know there are times when I don't have words, that the Holy Spirit will make intercession for me.

Prayer isn't so much for God as it is for me. To help me see what is in my heart. For example, when God asked Abraham to sacrifice his son Isaac. God knew that He wouldn't let Abraham kill Issac. God wanted Abraham to see his heart and if in his heart would he find himself being obedient to God and doing as God requested? Abraham saw his faith when he and Isaac began to walk up the mountain. When Abraham made the statement, "God will provide," God did provide a ram to be sacrificed. Abraham saw his faith in believing God to provide and that he and Issac would return to the servants.

Prayer is for to come to God in agreement with His Word. It's not what "I" want, but what does God want?

Hope this helps, give me feedback, please. :)

[Elisabeth]

Turn it all up and shake it upside down!!! :D As Spinning Head said in another post, we are taught by the very pastors who abuse us that if we are true followers of God, we will listen to them and not question them. I say this to that teaching "PTHHHHH!" :p :p :p The little "tape" that was stuck in my head was stuck on something like that; buried so deeply I couldn't find it, let alone turn it off! Well, I found that tape, and not only turned it off, but also destroyed it, ripped it to shreds! :D :D Truly following God means testing, questioning if something doesn't seem right, and shaking the dust off your feet if something isn't right. Ministers aren't in a "special place" with God because of their positions! In fact, if a minister deliberately leads someone astray, the word is clear that they will be judged more harshly. :eek: How can anyone believe in a God of love, get into the position of teaching His word, and then deliberately lead people astray?!

[mary]

You know Mary I dont know what it was that happened to you so I cant be a judge of it at all but just reading this Im so angry at these ministers.........Im having a hard time understanding why you would have anything to do with them at ALL!
If they react that way and are not on your side then thats all it would take for me.
Ok so Im alone most of the time.
Id rather be!
If I have to put up with that crap again ...........no way hosea its not my Jesus!
Wrong is wrong thats just the way it is. Authority doing it doesnt make a wrong be right. God is right and what He says is right! WE are the SHEEP of HIS pasture not theirs!
Remember what Jesus said about them?
A false shepherd comes to abuse the sheep but not Jesus He is the good shepherd!
Why have anything to do with any of it?
Ok I hope Im not going to get in big time trouble here and I most certainly dont want to try to tell anybody what to do but heres my take on things. Once you start getting into the hierarchy of building up a church sooner or later your going to have to deal with personalities and egos...............and unfortunately there it is in all its glory................the sin nature big time.

Ive let it go. Its Gods church if He wants it to be built He will build it, not me! This is what I was doing when I got so hurt. Hopefully that is the last time it will ever happen to me if not I will have to learn this same darn lesson all over again.
The church is not a business..........its not something that I can do...........its not something I can succesfully die for..............its not anything I think it is................its not my idea...........its HIS.
Im not in any way shape or form saying dont go to church and dont have anything to do with it Im just saying be warey of what the world thinks of the church..........the world is deceived in their views and always will be until God sets us right we will not be right in any way shape or form.

These men............they want a job............if it were not so they would know you and understand you and would love you and comfort you because that is Jesus............we are to be made in HIS likeness not more submission to authority likeness..........HIs likeness is meek and humble He is a comforter first and foremost.
When I tell my story to anyone if I dont see that spark of a tear coming that way of looking at me like Oh No! How can such a thing happen?............I chalk it up to these things..........they have never been through any of this.............why havent they? One friend i have its simple shes a little mouse that cannot speak at all shes so damaged..........but she says she loves me and she is the one that told me get out of there but I didnt.

Then the others..........like one friend that constantly takes up for the church...............shes steeped into traditions been there all of her life but alas she tries to find some truth for herself although she is for the most part very confused.......the main thing is that she loves those people and I forgive her because her heart is right, we should love them. I love them too.
If its a minister that treats me this way..........Im polite but I never speak to him again.........he is decieved he may not even know the Lord...........he is one of them and hes trying to hide sin and corruption, no way hosea, no more am I going to cater to him or any of them in any way shape or form.

THEY ARE NOT MY HUSBAND and they surely are not my God. For me this is where I am a doer of the word........I see that my husband is smart in these things he smells a rat out far better than I do because hes a man himself and he knows about business dealings..........he wont go to church why should I? If God wants it to change then God has my permission to change my husband. My husband is not perfect but it is to him that I am to submit not these silly men that treat me that way.

Mary I love you and I dont want to see you hurt again. I dont know what you are doing right now in helping build this church but it sounds like your husband sees this the right way. I would take all of this to him and tell him about it and ask him what he thinks? Maybe youve already done that, maybe Im way off base here probably am I should shut up right? Sorry Im just worried about you and Im near tears for you.
Why should Mary cry?
Why arent they crying??????????????????????

Oh, dearest (((((HB)))))))!!!!

Thank you, thank you for your post!!!!!! You're doing the Lord's work - that's what you're doing... You've helped me more today than I can tell you... You've given to the least of them, HB, and so you've given most kindly and generously to our dear Savior and Lord...

I'm having a very rough day. For a few weeks now, I've been dealing with hives, giant ones... I think it's partly from the stress of this new church and having to deal with these people again. At least, that's what my allergist told me, but I have about a dozen food allergies anyway. I'm a cauldron of Benadryl and Phenergan and I seriously don't know if I'm afoot or horseback. The Phenergan that I took last night had this horrible, "new-bottom-level" effect and I thought this morning, this is it. I can't take it anymore. I'm going to turn the church thing over to my husband: he said he wants to go at it, and of course to the Lord.

I didn't want to leave this earth "without benefit of clergy" and I didn't want my son to go through that as to my leave-taking - that's one reason that I made this church effort. It seems not to be what I thought it was going to be, though. It may not fly. People have walked out on it in the last day or so, people I counted on. Oh well. If this church isn't in the Lord's will, then I don't want it.

I'm too tired to do anything now but turn in...

Hornblower, you're wiser than you know...

Once again, thank you, with love and in the peace that only Jesus Christ can give,

mary

[Jerry]

I was just thinking about how a lot of people have a hard time considering sexual abuse by clergy abuse if the woman was of age and "consented" - even if the pastor was supposedly counseling her, and then it hit me; a lot of people have a hard time understanding spiritual abuse in general.

To All,,,,
This is one of the major problems in our Churches today....We now have a large portion of Clergy that are under educated and incompatint...They claim to be Clergy by some kind of anointing........I don't doubt their anointing,,,,I doubt the source of their anointing :mad: Any clergyman that enters into a sexual relationship with a woman that he is counseling,weather she consents or not,is not just an abuser,but is a Predatory,anti-social,sexual deviant,that should be removed from society at large.These men do not have the blessings of God and in fact are utterly repellent to His Christ.They are in short "Human Garbage".......If this post is an offense to Clergyman reading this board,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,Oh well :(
Love Jerry

[Carmen]

I'm sorry you're so stressed out, (((Mary))).

You might have to let Husband and God do a bit more and sit back and take care of yourself. You can all meet without a minister too, if they decide not to send one out to you. Remember, church is where two or three are together in his name. God is the one with the power, not the ministers, and God can and does work through every one of us, not just the ministers. Not all teachers have been ordained (you know God steps over some that have been ordained to appoint others no one would have thought of) and we are all there for each other. It can't be that everyone has walked out?

I'll be praying for the upcoming meeting, hoping that your wishes come true - and knowing that God's will will be done.

[DiligentLily]

I have a big problem, though: in the next few weeks, at some point, I am going to have to let these people in on "what happened" at the old church. I'm not going to do it in an e-mail; I don't even really want to do it over the phone. This is, I think, something that has to be done in person. The ministers are coming here in a month.

What do you say to a minister who asks what happened? I've given a brief sketch to two of them of other denominations, and they were not helpful or comforting. The general attitude of these two very different pastors was that I must be at fault, and even if there was fault on the part of the minister, this must never be spoken of. The person I have to tell is acquainted with the man who did the things to me. The entire subject is so hurtful to my husband that really bad things happen when anything even remotely related to it comes up. It's only been a year and a half...

>>I'm crying; stupid me<< :( :( :( "Father, if it be Thy will, let this cup pass..."

mary

Mary, I understand. I have had to hold back on telling people, too, because I know instinctively that I will be blamed--not them. My husband, on the other hand, has such a confident manner about him, that he has been able to tell friends and acquaintances our story and all of them hear it and come away shocked at the abuse and they don't blame my husband and me for it. But I know that when I try to tell the story my phantom guilts will show through, and people will doubt me instead of my abusers.

One thing that may be helpful is to have someone else, an advocate of yours, tell your story for you. Then it's not just your word against the abusive church's. My priest has stepped up to the plate for my husband and me a couple of times, and that really helped us gain credibility in the Christian community.

[mary]

(((((Carmen))))) and (((((Lily))))),

Thank you so much, dear sisters in the Lord... :) :) :)

Your posts contain such wonderful ideas!

Yep, Carmen, you're right: we don't need ministers; and I've got to let go somewhat. I've been thinking, okay, this week I've got 15 people "signed on;" the next week, it only looks like 8 or so and it's all my fault. :eek: No: the Lord will provide the increase. I got a nice e-mail back from the minister in the South, telling me not to be discouraged and that God will work it out. I'm too much of a "Martha" and not enough of a "Mary." (Ironically enough.)

Lily, you're right, too: I can't tell this story anymore. I'm not telling it to any more ministers. The immediate reason for my being thrown out of that church was that "pastor" asked explicitly for something that I was morally prohibited from providing. Okay, Jerry, he's among the scum of which you wrote. He's a narcissistic sociopath; he's a predator. My husband told me that on one occasion, what he saw "pastor" do to me were the actions of a "male animal" - and he knows I didn't see it coming. But "pastor" enjoys the esteem and good will of the entire denomination and outside of it as well. There's absolutely nothing I can do about that. I see now that I'm done, "cooked" if a minister or a church requires a letter of transfer or for me to give a reason that I can never get one from that church. So be it. God will right all wrongs and He will exact a penalty from those who approved of OUR respective "pastors'" actions, whether by calling us liars or denying what they saw with their own eyes, or by simply doing nothing when they knew they should have done something (Matthew 18 imperatives).

Lily, you're truly blessed to have a priest advocate for you! You're in the minority and I'm so glad that your situation worked out that way! :) :) :) Maybe there's hope for the rest of us!!! After all, as long as we're here, the situation doesn't yet have a "wrap."

(Feeling somewhat better today, now that I've taken enough Benadryl to drop a Clydesdale... ;) )

Love to all of you,

mary

[DiligentLily]

really really wanted control, so he denied us our letter for three months while he tried to conduct an investigation into our private lives and try to dig up something he could use to bring discipline against us. It was an absolute nightmare. We couldn't go to another church. We couldn't go to our church because the gossip and judgment were so bad. We feared excommunication. When we finally got out of there, I don't think I really prayed for several years.

Lily, you're truly blessed to have a priest advocate for you! You're in the minority and I'm so glad that your situation worked out that way! :) :) :) Maybe there's hope for the rest of us!!! After all, as long as we're here, the situation doesn't yet have a "wrap."

I certainly hope so. It was nothing but the providence of God that we just 'found' ourselves at this new church. We had never heard of it or of the amazing man who is pastoring there. We just got lost on our way to a different church that we were looking for and went to this new place instead. The priest there had heard of our story from our 'enemies' side, and knew right away that we had been wronged, in spite of our failings. I think his generosity is due to his being a recovering alcoholic. He knows how important mercy is and he know we are all sinners.

, (Feeling somewhat better today, now that I've taken enough Benadryl to drop a Clydesdale... ;) )

Love to all of you,

mary

Love to you, too, and better health!

[Elisabeth]

To All,,,,
This is one of the major problems in our Churches today....We now have a large portion of Clergy that are under educated and incompatint...They claim to be Clergy by some kind of anointing........I don't doubt their anointing,,,,I doubt the source of their anointing :mad: Any clergyman that enters into a sexual relationship with a woman that he is counseling,weather she consents or not,is not just an abuser,but is a Predatory,anti-social,sexual deviant,that should be removed from society at large.These men do not have the blessings of God and in fact are utterly repellent to His Christ.They are in short "Human Garbage".......If this post is an offense to Clergyman reading this board,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,Oh well :(
Love Jerry

Yeah, Jerry! I don't think it would be an offense to a Clergyman who's following Christ; it's the truth! I don't know how large a large portion is; me, I think that if it's even 1 percent of pastors who would do that, the portion is too large. Unfortunately, I think the portion is larger than that. :( I guess we just keep on the straight and narrow, and keep following God, even though there are liars in our midst.

[Elisabeth]

I see now that I'm done, "cooked" if a minister or a church requires a letter of transfer or for me to give a reason that I can never get one from that church. So be it.

I never really thought about that with letters of transfer, even though my denomination does letters of transfer. Now that I think about that, I can see how, if a church insists on a letter of transfer, it can be used as a tool from an abusive church to abuse. My denomination, they ask for either a letter of transfer or a statement of faith. I didn't have to do a letter of transfer from my abusive church (fortunately) because I went to a different denomination for awhile, one that doesn't do letters, dropped my membership in the abusive church, and then when I started going to a church of the same denomination as the abusive church, I went on a statement of faith.

[Carmen]

Mary,

About letters of transfer - the reformed church my parents go to will accept one from another church, but also lets people join after they have been there a while, after they have gotten to know them and when they agree to the London Bapt. Confession of 1689. I will never be able to belong there though, because I don't agree with that confession.

[mary]

Lily, oh, it's so clear now re: your priest: he was forgiven much, and so he can put himself in your place! So Biblical! Abusive pastors and their supporters may not know the forgiveness that we know; they may be tares among the wheat (in fact, they probably are) and so they don't know or care enough not to abuse the sheep or not to further abuse already hurt people by supporting the abuser, not the abused.

Elisabeth, you're right... The churches I'm primarily doctrinally "on all fours with" do require letters of transfer or a truthful explanation of why it's not possible to obtain such a letter. I reasonably could be "done out of" a church for the rest of my life. I'm still technically on the membership rolls of the place that threw me out. He ("pastor") gets to constructively eliminate me from membership in a Christian assembly for the rest of my life. :mad: Whatever. The Lord knows about it and He will provide. This requires tremendous amount of trust in Him - ultimate trust. But no more trust than He requires of any of us - in any situation.

If the article below has already been copied and posted here, mea culpa (a little Catholic lingo there). I might have done it myself, but maybe it's worth a repeat... I had to edit it a lot for length; if you want to read the whole article, I'll post the link.

mary
__________________________________________________ ______

Blaming Women for the Sexually Abusive Male Pastor

by Ann-Janine Morey

Ann-Janine Morey is associate professor of religious studies at Southern Illinois University in Carbondale, Illinois. This article appeared in the Christian Century, October 5, 1988, p. 867. Copyright by the Christian Century Foundation and used by permission. Current articles and subscription information can be found at www.christiancentury.org. (http://www.christiancentury.org/) This material was prepared for Religion Online by Ted & Winnie Brock.

With the exception of a few recent articles, most of them cited here, studies on clergy sexuality published in sociological, psychological or religious periodicals -- as well as fictional treatments -- have focused on male clergy adultery without mentioning the consequences suffered by women involved... Many women don’t speak out about sexual abuse by pastors because, along with enduring terrible damage to their own self-esteem and relentless public shredding of their reputations, they will suffer the loss of personal and community relationships -- what may amount to a devastating social and spiritual exile. The time-honored response to such situations is to blame women -- the "other woman" or the pastor’s wife -- for the sexual transgressions of a male minister.
Typical of recent treatments of the topic is "The Sexual Hazards of Pastoral Care" (Christianity Today, November 8, 1985) , by Dean Merrill, which describes the minister as an attractive target for "the Enemy," or a "sitting duck for the romantically starved." The pastor’s work "allows for a flexible schedule with little accountability"; he is "attuned to the aesthetic, emotional and interpersonal side of life" -- all reasons why "moral failure in the ministry is more often the result of inattention than intent." These excuses portray him as a misguided but innocent victim of circumstances -- he was manipulated by a predatory female; he suffered from flextime confusion.


One of the few contemporary accounts I have found that speaks for the woman involved is a pseudonymous, first-person narrative by a former church secretary ("My Minister Kept Making Passes at Me," Ladies Home Journal, July 1985) Joan Clayton, working as an essential wage earner for her family, says her minister made repeated sexual advances to her, and her efforts to repel or avoid him were unsuccessful. She finally confided in another church member and learned that several other women in the congregation had endured such harassment. When these charges were brought before the personnel committee, however, the minister, called Smithson in the article, denied the allegations, and the committee immediately dropped the matter.
Clayton filed a letter of intent with the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission. Evidence surfaced showing that members at Smithson’s previous church had leveled similar charges, which were dropped for insufficient evidence. Smithson finally admitted to "hugging and embracing," but said the women had misinterpreted him. It was recommended that he be transferred and that he seek counseling.
But Clayton, who suffered debilitating stress-related illnesses during this ordeal, reports that this was not the end of the matter. "Overwhelmingly, the congregation supported the minister," she complains... An anonymous letter accused her of being a liar; she was snubbed at church and labeled a troublemaker... "What hurt me the most was the automatic assumption that because the charges were made against a minister, they must be lies," she says.
Although clergymen protest that they are vulnerable, they in fact enjoy some powerful social protection. Traditional respect for the office, along with the congregation’s unwillingness to believe it could have misjudged its pastor, constitute two parts of his protection. Often congregations are remarkably ready to believe the woman involved to be the greater of the two sinners. Like a rape victim, a woman who becomes sexually involved with her pastor is frequently considered to be the most guilty party -- and it is she, not he, who is ultimately put on trial.
Churches must also stop making excuses for ministers. They should not deny the often unreasonable theological and institutional pressures that pastors endure. But they must acknowledge that a pastor possesses a unique amount of power. Like a doctor or a therapist, he sees people at their most vulnerable, but unlike the other two, his interest is freighted with a divine imprimatur. A sexual encounter between pastor and counselee is a profound violation not only of the body but of the spirit as well. Only death exposes more clearly the mutual vulnerability of body and spirit.
Andre Bustanoby has suggested in his article "‘The Pastor and the Other Woman" (Christianity Today, August 30, 1974, pp. 7-10) that sometimes the ministry attracts a competitive and narcissistic kind of male whose goal is ego gratification and for whom sexual conquest is a key source of gratification. "Those who are concerned about the problem of the other woman in the minister’s life should not look first for a seductress in the congregation. They ought first to concern themselves with the ‘top dog’ minister who grasps at every opportunity to fortify his faltering ego."
Clearly, a man who engages in sexual abuse of female parishioners is sick, and in need of treatment and support. But legitimate concern for a pastor’s well-being ought not to draw support away from the women who are victimized by him. Fortune asserts that "pastorally, the response to the victim is the first priority." Mary Pellauer believes pastors should assent to the guidelines and ethics of accountability applied to therapists. "Professional counselors view any sexual contact between the counselor and the client as the deepest breach of professional ethics. The professional is always responsible; sex with a client is never okay " ("Sex, Power, and the Family of God," Christianity and Crisis, February 16, 1987, p. 47)
...No one -- minister, congregation or woman -- escapes unharmed from the church’s failure to confront sexual abuse. But we apologize for the male minister as we do not for women, and our knowledge is seriously skewed. We have only some anonymous stories told by frightened, humiliated women who are trying to speak to an institution that has blamed them in advance because of their female sexuality and bids them be silent. Because of his professional power in an androcentric institution, the male minister is responsible for sexual violations that he commits while tending to his professional duties. Until there is cultural and institutional parity between male clergy and their female parishioners, the church must listen to victims of sexual abuse, speak for those who are afraid or cannot speak for themselves and respond with justice and compassion.

Viewed 7809 times.

[mary]

Carmen, our posts were somewhat simultaneous...

Oh, I wouldn't either be able to belong to a church that would require me to accept the London Baptist Confession to become a member. Eeewww.

I even have some problems with the Westminster Confession of Faith... :D

mary

[Elisabeth]

Mary,

The link for the whole article would be nice. :D :D

[mary]

Mary,

The link for the whole article would be nice. :D :D

Agreed. :) Here's the link:

http://www.religion-online.org/showarticle.asp?title=959

The stuff I had to cut to make it short enough for a post is pretty valuable, I thought... Hope it helps where and however needed.

mary

[ninaspirit]

what is a letter of transfer and why is it important? it sounds like business more than church. ninas.

[mary]

Ninas, you're right that it is more "business" than "church," but they cloak it in "Biblical" reference. In Reformed and probably in other churches, too, if you want to join, the "powers that be" want to know that you are a member in good standing of another church. They want to know that you're not under church discipline, that you've publicly professed faith in Christ, etc. So they require you to get a "letter of transfer" from your former pastor or the board of elders, saying that you are a member in good standing in that church and you're just transferring your membership from one congregation to another, not fleeing church discipline.

Obviously, I can't do that. The way things are set up now is that I have no dealings with "pastor" except through an attorney. This is because of his and his lovely and gracious wife's slander of me in the weeks after he threw me out. There's no way that I'd ever get a "letter of transfer" from him. A couple of the last things he ever said to me was that I was "beyond (his) forgiveness and reconciliation forever" and that he outweighed me by 70 pounds and he "could take (me) down." No letter of transfer forthcoming. :(

So I will not ever again be able to join a church of my particular doctrinal persuasions. In my case, "pastor" has won, at least here on earth.

mary

[DiligentLily]

Obviously, I can't do that. The way things are set up now is that I have no dealings with "pastor" except through an attorney. This is because of his and his lovely and gracious wife's slander of me in the weeks after he threw me out. There's no way that I'd ever get a "letter of transfer" from him. A couple of the last things he ever said to me was that I was "beyond (his) forgiveness and reconciliation forever" and that he outweighed me by 70 pounds and he "could take (me) down." No letter of transfer forthcoming. :(

So I will not ever again be able to join a church of my particular doctrinal persuasions. In my case, "pastor" has won, at least here on earth.

mary

Yikes! That's serious! In our case, we were able to wrestle the letter out of the session after several months, (it's moot now anyway since we're Episcopalian) but some of the elders were so bitter about the fact that we 'won' the legal argument with them that they pursued us for more than a decade after that and tried to smear our reputations and get my husband fired from a job that had nothing to do with them.

[mary]

Yikes! That's serious! In our case, we were able to wrestle the letter out of the session after several months, (it's moot now anyway since we're Episcopalian) but some of the elders were so bitter about the fact that we 'won' the legal argument with them that they pursued us for more than a decade after that and tried to smear our reputations and get my husband fired from a job that had nothing to do with them.

Whoa!!!! That is serious, Lily! :( :mad: What a bunch of rip-roaring, bottom-dwelling sleazes. May they reap what they have sown, and may this "crop" of theirs be at least double what they've done to you and your husband. That's absolutely horrible.

As I hear more of your story and those of others here, I've come to hate profoundly what "church" has become, around here and, it appears, almost everywhere else. Since leaving Catholicism, I've been treated worse (and seen others treated terribly as well) by people in "churches" than I've ever been treated in any law office I've ever worked in. Most of my career in the legal field was, admittedly, working for "ambulance-chasers," i.e., plaintiff lawyers. During the last nearly 5 years, however, I worked in administrative law, but things weren't exactly pristine there, either.

Even after I was a Christian, the general demeanor in law offices (even in places where I was the only gentile and everyone else was Jewish) towards me was better than that in just about every church I either joined or tried to associate with. A sobering statement to have to make, wouldn't you say? What is wrong with these stinking churches?! Why do they always have to extend "the fist of fellowship" to people rather than a friendly hand? Why do they consistently bear no resemblance to the One Whose precious name they claim? I always refuse to counter with a fist of my own and so I get booted, or something else miserable happens.

As I've said before, if my doctrinal beliefs weren't what they are, I would have been much better off staying in the Catholic Church. Catholics only rarely treat each other in these ways. Protestants and other non-Catholics are so mean - with the many shining and beautiful exceptions of those on this forum! :) :) :)

If I can't get this new church up and running, then I positively give up and that's it. No more looking for a church or trying to start one. My husband can go to a church of his choice, but unless he orders me to go with him, I'm staying home on Sundays, just reading God's Word and maybe going on www.Sermonaudio.com (http://www.Sermonaudio.com).

It may be better and healthier to stay far away from "God's people" on Sunday mornings, at least around here.

[End of today's "whine" (no "devotional," was it?! ;) ). Sorry.]

mary

[ninaspirit]

Ninas, you're right that it is more "business" than "church," but they cloak it in "Biblical" reference. In Reformed and probably in other churches, too, if you want to join, the "powers that be" want to know that you are a member in good standing of another church. They want to know that you're not under church discipline, that you've publicly professed faith in Christ, etc. So they require you to get a "letter of transfer" from your former pastor or the board of elders, saying that you are a member in good standing in that church and you're just transferring your membership from one congregation to another, not fleeing church discipline.

Obviously, I can't do that. The way things are set up now is that I have no dealings with "pastor" except through an attorney. This is because of his and his lovely and gracious wife's slander of me in the weeks after he threw me out. There's no way that I'd ever get a "letter of transfer" from him. A couple of the last things he ever said to me was that I was "beyond (his) forgiveness and reconciliation forever" and that he outweighed me by 70 pounds and he "could take (me) down." No letter of transfer forthcoming. :(

So I will not ever again be able to join a church of my particular doctrinal persuasions. In my case, "pastor" has won, at least here on earth.

mary

Thanks for explaining Mary,,,,,we dont think a pastor who is is a loving paster would turn you away if they knew your story. but it must be kind of hurting if you keep having to be asked questions about that pastor and what happened every time you ask for transfer. is it common in all the churches there to send transfer letters between denominations?

when we reported the pastoral counseler and then went to talk with the head pastor - he believed us right away even though he didnt know us and he didnt know of any issues from other people about that counselor. He just said he had no reason not to believe us. the counseler denied his behavior about 8 years and then admitted he said "just because." In all the 8 years the pastor never changed his thinking.

love ninas.

[mary]

Thanks for explaining Mary,,,,,we dont think a pastor who is is a loving paster would turn you away if they knew your story. but it must be kind of hurting if you keep having to be asked questions about that pastor and what happened every time you ask for transfer. is it common in all the churches there to send transfer letters between denominations?

when we reported the pastoral counseler and then went to talk with the head pastor - he believed us right away even though he didnt know us and he didnt know of any issues from other people about that counselor. He just said he had no reason not to believe us. the counseler denied his behavior about 8 years and then admitted he said "just because." In all the 8 years the pastor never changed his thinking.

love ninas.

No, it's just really Reformed churches that want a letter of transfer or an explanation. They want to make sure that no one is under any Matthew 18 discipline or has been duly excommunicated. I agree with you that a loving pastor will not require an explanation. Also, they "fence" the communion table (1 Cor. 11), but I don't really think that's any of their business. If we "eat and drink unworthily," it's our sin and to our damnation, not theirs. Whatever. I was forced to tell one pastor because he was not going to allow me to take communion at his church unless I told him what had happened at the other church. Yeah, it does hurt to be asked "what happened" and to see the look of pain that crosses my husband's face... This is not a good situation here.

I'm glad that you were believed! :) Gives the rest of us hope and I'm glad it worked out that way for you: that's excellent that he said that he had no reason not to believe you!!!! Wonderful! :D

Love,

mary

[Carmen]

(((Mary))), I'm sorry you'll never get into a church of your accepted doctrines, just because of a letter of transfer. :(

I think that some pastors are afraid of using Matthew 18 discipline too, because they would have to put all of their stuff out on the table too, for everyone to see, and that just wouldn't do if they have skeletons in the closet. The pastor that SA'd me didn't consider Matthew 18 in my case.

[mary]

(((Mary))), I'm sorry you'll never get into a church of your accepted doctrines, just because of a letter of transfer. :(

I think that some pastors are afraid of using Matthew 18 discipline too, because they would have to put all of their stuff out on the table too, for everyone to see, and that just wouldn't do if they have skeletons in the closet. The pastor that SA'd me didn't consider Matthew 18 in my case.

Hugs back at you, (((Carmen!)))

Well, we'll see... So far, the "new church start-up" ministers haven't forced me to tell them what happened at the old church; we'll see if it comes up when they visit. I'm hoping to avoid the whole thing. I'm certainly not going to bring it up! ;) Maybe they'll let me in...

Now, the question arises, if the pastor who SA'ed you "didn't consider" Matthew 18, then nothing about his actions was Biblical, was it? The whole thing was a phony set-up. Everything he did only counts to his detriment in God's economy, then, doesn't it?

Interesting how many "churches" avoid the whole Matthew 18 issue. Just shows their basic apostasy, I guess. (BTW, the word "apostate" was one that my "pastor" told me, "I don't want to hear that word come out of your mouth ever again!" I thought, say what? :eek: :confused: :D It's in the Bible...!)

mary

[Elisabeth]

Well, we'll see... So far, the "new church start-up" ministers haven't forced me to tell them what happened at the old church; we'll see if it comes up when they visit. I'm hoping to avoid the whole thing. I'm certainly not going to bring it up! ;) Maybe they'll let me in...



I'm sure the ministers realize the possibility that some ministers in the denomination are, to put it bluntly, asses! ;) Just be honest, Mary, and don't stress about it. I have told some ministers what that one pastor did to me, and with the exception of one time, which I wrote about here, the response from them was positive toward me. :D

[mary]

I'm sure the ministers realize the possibility that some ministers in the denomination are, to put it bluntly, asses! ;) Just be honest, Mary, and don't stress about it. I have told some ministers what that one pastor did to me, and with the exception of one time, which I wrote about here, the response from them was positive toward me. :D

Thanks so much for the encouragement, Elisabeth! I'm glad that you were believed - that must have felt so validating and great! :) :) :)

I think I will try to hold off telling them anything until we have a face-to-face meeting. I would ask first if this minister is familiar with or knows the minister who's here. Then I would go into how involved I was in that church vis-a-vis putting the bulletin together, cooking for them, even helping "pastor" out with his becoming a U. S. citizen, etc. There is a particular reason that "pastor" went after me, but not others, and this will be apparent to anyone who sees what's there to be seen and knows "pastor."

What I would really like to do is to let others know what he did as far as his embezzlement practices went, but that's not my story to tell. The lady who told me specifically that he embezzled from her - and how much - has died. I'm sure he has other "marks" by now. I would like him to be stopped from this kind of behavior, i.e., swindling money from "tender hearts with investment portfolios." It's absolutely repulsive. :mad:

Anyway, no one is in my face at this moment about what happened at the other church, and until they are, I'm not going to worry about it...

Once again, thank you - you have been such a help to me! God bless you, Elisabeth!

Love,

mary

[Carmen]

Mary,

I have figured out somewhat how the wind blows in such circles. I think that you should probably avoid mentioning the situation in the old church. If they do bring it up just stick with the facts, don't say anything they might take as "gossip" and try not to show any hard feelings towards the first pastor. Hubby might have to make a discreet exit to "get" or "do" something if the subject comes up (talk to him about this ahead of time how you both will speak of and handle the situation) lest he show he has hard feelings. Such things don't go over well in reformed circles, I think.

My parent's pastor listened intently as I talked factually about the SA and agreed that the pastor in question had handled the situation wrongly, but when I started to talk about my feelings he turned away to do something else. I know he did it intentionally, probably so that no "gossip" would reach his ears. I know he was trying to protect himself from what he might hear, and perhaps trying to protect me from gossiping (sinning), but I still think that talking about my feelings in the matter is important for me to heal. Why can't I talk about it with other Christians? Why do I need to go to a counselor or psych. to do it? It is one of those little things I don't like about that kind of church. Even if I go to my parent's church for a while, I'll still need a psych. on the side to help me with what I cannot discuss there. They're nice people at that church, caring, understanding, but too conservative IMO.

I'd say, discuss things ahead of time with Hubby just in case, but don't overdiscuss them. Work out your strategy. If you stick to the facts about your particular case of SA I don't think they can keep you out. If they are as understanding as my parent's pastor (despite his being so conservative) they won't keep you out.

[DiligentLily]

Carmen, this sounds pretty wise to me. It made me think of a passage in the Gospel of John that seems very interesting:

24Jesus did not commit himself unto them, because he knew all men,

25And needed not that any should testify of man: for he knew what was in man.

It seems to tell how Jesus understood that he couldn't trust men with everything that was on his heart. We can't either. I still cannot talk about my abuse plainly to anybody but my husband, mom and sister. Only this past month have I begun to brooch the topic a little with our priest and his wife. And this is even after they have been ardent defenders of ours.

[mary]

Carmen & Lily, you're right, of course.

I am not going to bring up the issue of what happened at the old church myself. There is absolutely no way. First of all, for awhile over a year ago, my husband was toying out loud with the idea of mentioning it at work (he was in a sort of half-plant, half-test lab environment). There are some people there who know him, like him, weigh about 350 lbs. and would have enjoyed roughing up "pastor" for kicks. They do it to other people "for sport" after bar closing hours anyway... I said NO - that's beyond the pale. My husband has forbidden even the mention of "pastor's" name in his presence. Our son told me, of his own accord, "Dad's still very upset and hurt..." My husband cannot discuss it or even be around if it is discussed.

You're right about Reformed congregations. As the minister in Lily's link in the other thread said, "Presbyterianism used correctly and Biblically is okay. Presbyterianism used by evil men is a HORROR." How right that is! This kind of thing cannot be talked about in Reformed circles. That's why I'm not going to mention it unless I get backed into a corner and I have absolutely no way out. "No way out?" - I used to be a professional "arguer." I'll make a way out.

Thanks again!

Love,

mary

[butterfly]

Mary I don"t know what a reformed church means. Is it a break off from another church?

I haven"t seen many here in New England but there is one in a town near my town.
Once I thought about going there. Then I thought it could be worse than I came out of.

I"m pray you will be blessed with the new church.:D :D
shirley

[Jerry]

Could someone please tell me where in the Bible it talks about "Letters of Transfer" ?????

[Jerry]

How about the Catholic Cardinal in California,that advocates amnesty for illegal aliens,,,,,,,,,,,,then refuses communion to good Christians in his church because they don't happen to be catholic...........Me thinks the "Good Cardinal" speak with "Forked Tongue" ;) :mad:

[hornblower]

How about the Catholic Cardinal in California,that advocates amnesty for illegal aliens,,,,,,,,,,,,then refuses communion to good Christians in his church because they don't happen to be catholic...........Me thinks the "Good Cardinal" speak with "Forked Tongue" ;) :mad:

Most of the illegal aliens are Mexican which usually are all Catholic so of course they are "IN" the fold, they can take communion. The rest of us we are all going to the hot place.

[mary]

Thank you so much, Shirley!!!! :) :) :)

As for your question, a Reformed church is one that teaches the original intent and theology of the Protestant Reformation, which started with Martin Luther and his 95 theses nailed to the church door at Wittenburg, proceeded through John Calvin and John Knox, and found modern-day expression in the preaching and teaching of Charles Haddon Spurgeon, Robert L. Dabney, J. Gresham Machen, the Protestant Reformed Church of America, etc. Reformed doctrine has largely been kicked to the curb these days because of our particular cultural leanings at this time in human history. A culture such as ours - and I include western Europe along with this continent - cannot and will not tolerate Reformed doctrine, nor can 99.9% of its Christian ministers. There are "degrees" of Reformed doctrine and theology. Sometimes it's called (contemptuously these days) "Calvinism." The five points of Calvinism can be summarized in the acronym "TULIP," which are:

1) Total inability: salvation is all of God [John 6:44]; man can't save himself by anything inherently good in him or by choosing God of his own inclinations. Our salvation is a result of His sovereignty over everything; our "good works" are the fruit of salvation, not the cause of it [Ephesians 2:8-10];
2) Unconditional election (there was nothing about us personally that made us "look good" to God and therefore, He saved us) [Ezekiel 16; cf. Romans 3:10-12];
3) the Limited atonement: although Jesus's death and atonement were potentially efficacious ("enough") for everyone in the world and that is why we must witness to everyone, in the end, not everyone is saved. [John 17:9; Matthew 7:14.] If Jesus's death was "for" everyone, then why must anyone pay for his own sins by being separated from God forever? Aren't Hitler and Stalin "probably" in heaven? Jesus's death was "for" everyone in that anyone might be saved, even a Ted Bundy or a Karla Faye Tucker, but only God knows who "anyone" is. And God is in control of that. [Cf. Mark 10:17-27.]
4) Irresistible grace: one cannot resist the drawing of the Holy Spirit [John 17:12-20]. One can run from the Lord once one is saved, but the indwelling Holy Spirit will draw that person back. Those He has set His love upon, He will keep, and for eternity [Romans 8:35-39];
5) Perseverance of the saints: one cannot lose one's salvation. [Philippians 1:6]. That which God has promised to keep, He will keep forever. [Romans 8:1]. God does not make a covenant that He breaks. We may stray from Him, and we all do in our sinful flesh, but He will not cast us aside [John 6:37].

Some people believe in two or three points of Reformed theology, but not all five. For example, at that Messianic synagogue we attended, they believed partially in the total inability; they believed fully in unconditional election, not at all in the limited atonement, mostly in irresistible grace and totally in the perseverance of the saints. So they were, at most, about 3-point Calvinists. The irony of their position was that they claimed they "had fellowship" with Reformed clergy, but basically, they wanted nothing to do with them.

That's my capsule summary of Reformed Protestant doctrine. I do not champion it here because that's obviously not the purpose of this forum. I can only explain briefly what it is and leave it at that.

"TULIP" is just a short summary of Reformed doctrine; there are tons of materials that go beyond what I just described.

I know a lot of people who are 4-point "Calvinists." They believe in "T, U, I and P," but can't accept the idea of the limited atonement.

Reformed doctrine and theology, practiced by born-again believers, can be a blessing, a comfort and it certainly provides eternal assurance. However, as the miniser in the sermon that Lily linked stated, "Presbyterianism (Reformed doctrine) practiced by evil men is a horror." Yes, indeed! :eek: :) In that case, it becomes a horrid mockery of what was meant to assure, keep and help God's people grow in grace and love, towards Him and towards the whole world.

Enough for now...

mary

[mary]

Could someone please tell me where in the Bible it talks about "Letters of Transfer" ?????

It is not in the Bible. Anywhere. You are correct, sir.

mary

[mary]

How about the Catholic Cardinal in California,that advocates amnesty for illegal aliens,,,,,,,,,,,,then refuses communion to good Christians in his church because they don't happen to be catholic...........Me thinks the "Good Cardinal" speak with "Forked Tongue" ;) :mad:

That's modern-day, "replace theology with social justice, leftist norms," Catholic teaching these days. "Forked tongue?" Do you think?!

We could also talk about pagan, Aristotelian-derived, "substance-versus-essence" characterizations of exactly what communion (the Eucharist) is, but I'm not going to get into that. "Wouldn't be prudent."

mary

[Elisabeth]

My son went to day care at a Reformed Church. The pastor was a woman. I thought that was cool! :)

[ex-shep]

"TULIP" is just a short summary of Reformed doctrine; there are tons of materials that go beyond what I just described


Probably the reason some go tiptoe through it.

[mary]

My son went to day care at a Reformed Church. The pastor was a woman. I thought that was cool! :)

I would just respond with kind of an alternative: http://cbmw.org/questions/

And I'm going to "tiptoe" through it myself...! ;) :) :) :)

mary

[Elisabeth]

"TULIP" is just a short summary of Reformed doctrine; there are tons of materials that go beyond what I just described


Probably the reason some go tiptoe through it.

Tiptoe through the tulips! That's a groaner! :rolleyes: :cool: :D

[ex-shep]

Tiptoe through the tulips! That's a groaner! :rolleyes: :cool: :D

I just rose to the occassion and still came up smelling like daiseys.:p

[mary]

I just rose to the occassion and still came up smelling like daiseys.:p

Talk about groaners!!!! "Rose" and daisies, indeed! Ex-Shep, I'm about to get viole(n)t!!!! :D :D :D

mary

[butterfly]

:D :D Thanks Mary,

Your post helped me to understand better what a Reformed church means.
shirley

[mary]

:D :D Thanks Mary,

Your post helped me to understand better what a Reformed church means.
shirley

You're very welcome, Shirley!!!! :) :) :)

(I think I managed to keep my own predilections "embedded," right?! ;) :p :) )

Love,

mary