Another day in the life . . .

[Florence]

Today I ran into two women who each used to be paid staff worship leaders at my church (over 6 years ago). When I saw them talking, I walked up to say, "Hello" and couldn't help but notice that they were both in tears. One of them (I'll call her "Lori") returned my greeting and had to go, but the other (I'll call her "Judy") continued to weep and told me how hurt she has been and is by the pastor. She was born in this church and has called it home for 57 years (you wouldn't believe she is 57 - she looks like she might be 40. Anyway . . . )

"Judy" told me how she felt forced out of her position there (she resigned) because she wasn't "spiritual enough" and that ever since she resigned she has been black-balled - only being called upon to "help out" when "Lori" is asked to fill in because absolutely no one else is available.

As "Judy" stood there weeping, telling me how the pastor had once told her she was one of his "best friends" but now he treats her like so much rubbish that he wishes would stay in the dumpster, I found myself weeping with her. Not only for my own pain, but for hers and "Lori's."

Of course, wouldn't you know that the pastor then happened to pass near us and saw us talking. I'm sure that only served to brand both of us even further.

As I shared our conversation with my husband, also with tears, I was chastising myself for getting so emotional about something that I should be getting used to when I began to wonder if perhaps my tears are not my own but perhaps are those of the Holy Spirit who dwells within me (ICor. 3:16). It's amazing to me to think that my tears are not a sign of my own weakness or inability to "get a grip" or any of those other accusations I have endured because of the tender-heartedness I have had toward church hurts. Perhaps my tears are rather the tears of a loving and compassionate God who feels deeply the wounds and pain put upon us by those who claim the name "Christian." After all, if He can use my hands and feet to reach out and share His love, can He not also use my heart and eyes to weep for those whom He loves?

Florence

[Hope 98]

Perhaps my tears are rather the tears of a loving and compassionate God who feels deeply the wounds and pain put upon us by those who claim the name "Christian." After all, if He can use my hands and feet to reach out and share His love, can He not also use my heart and eyes to weep for those whom He loves?

Florence

Florence that is beautiful. I believe that you're right. I've had the experience myself feeling that the overwhelming sadness that I was experiencing was not my own at all, but the tears of a compassionate God.

The other thing that sprang to mind as I read your post is how Jesus wept over Jerusalem, and how he wept with Mary & Martha for Lazarus.

[Jerry]

Matt 13/43 Shine forth sweet Florence ;)
Love Jerry

[Kerrin]

Florence,
How much I would love to be blessed with a friend such as you, who can weep with a hurting sister. Since my pastor accused me of "not submitting to the office of vicar", meaning him. Oh, and that I am a "jezebel" :eek:
My best friend of 10 years has ignored me, for fear she will be influnced by my disobedience. How lonely it has been with me and my tears.
What a lovely gift you are.
Bless you, Kerrin

[Florence]

Remember how I said the pastor passed by and saw "Judy" and me talking? Well, call me paranoid, but late last night I got an email from someone in the church who was actually vice president of the elders when I brought up my concerns about the music pastor a few years ago. This person is very, very close to the pastor. Every once in a while, I get an email from this person or an invitation to have coffee or we have a "chance" meeting in the foyer of the church. These communications always seem to have an uncanny timing to them and for a long time I have suspected that the pastor sends this person to talk to me to find out "just where I am at" in my feelings about the church, how I am being treated, etc. I haven't communicated with this person in months - never told anyone except my references that I had applied for a job at the church.

Anyway, I get this email and it says: "When I hear some of the things you have been through in the name of ministry I wonder how you manage to keep a positive attitude. Maybe you don't. It's difficult for me to understand why the "church" loves to put labels on things and if you are in this category then you can't be a good person to work in this or that place."

I'm thinking that since the pastor saw "Judy" and me talking (and kleenex being used), he has given this person the mission of finding out "how I'm doing." I believe this person is a pawn who really doesn't understand that any information they take back to the pastor will only be used against me. I'm sure it is presented in that loving, caring, Mr. Roger's kind of way that makes this person think that the pastor is only wanting to find out what's going on in case he can "help" in some way but that he isn't able to speak to me himself because of my past "church hurts."

I was rather proud of my response. Here it is:

What a nice surprise to hear from you! Your emails have uncanny timing . . .

Hmmm . . . how do I keep a positive attitude? Or do I? Not always. I don't always cling to Jesus, but I am convinced that He always clings to me . . . "O Love that will not let me go."

I am learning to say, "Okay God, I don't know what You're up to because from where I'm standing things look pretty bleak. But You are God (and I'm not) and no matter what has or is or will happen, I'm just going to keep my focus on You - because You are worthy of being first in my life. In all that I say. In all that I do. Wherever I am. Whatever happens."

I had a brother and sister duo that were students of mine at [Bible college where I taught] come to [my work church] to sing today. As people came by afterward to thank them for coming, one lady asked how we knew each other. The brother said, "She was our favorite teacher at [college]. We really miss her." He went on to say that I had high expectations of them both musically and as people involved in ministry - and that my love, care, and encouragement had helped them to move far beyond what they ever thought they could do or be. It doesn't get any better than that.

I also spoke to someone today who told me that she had heard that I was "unfit" to work at [my home church]. I don't know where she heard it or why she felt compelled to tell me that but I know it doesn't get much worse than that. I just don't understand why I have to hear these things through the grape vine . . .

Okay, it's late and I'm rambling . . .

Good night.

That should give the pastor a little something to chew on for a while.
Florence

[Doug64]

Hi:


Good comments to the e-mail writer.

I think it's called the "sandwich" effect. Something bad sandwiched between two good things.
That's how we were instructed to evaluate speeches. It's nice that some of it was good. There are probably others out there who would toot your horn too, it they knew it would help.

Doug :)

[Florence]

Well, he's at it again. It's been almost two months since I heard from the pastor's "spy" (four months since I have had any meaningful communication with the pastor) and I guess I shouldn't have been surprised. It was announced on Sunday that they would not be filling the position that I had applied for (apparently I was the only applicant and since I am not "fit" for the position, they aren't going to hire anyone.) They did hire a "professional" worship leader for the contemporary services who is from a city an hour away and will come and lead worship whenever he isn't on the road promoting his cd's. The blended service will be led by various volunteers.

Anyway, that announcement was made on Sunday and on Tuesday night the "spy" sent an email to check up on me. The job wasn't mentioned but the person did seem to suggest that since I have been labeled with a red letter and if I am unhappy with the church, I should consider leaving. Here is my response:

*What I find most fascinating about wearing the red letter as you so aptly called it, is that people are so quick to conclude that expressing a concern and/or taking a stand is an indication that a person is disagreeable or a downright trouble maker. I have searched my heart on this many times and don't believe that it has ever been my intention to be either of those things or any other negative label I have found pinned to my chest. Most of the labels are in fact placed on me by people who don't know me in a personal way and never took the time to personally speak with me in such a way as to discover the intent of my heart. Oh well. Have you ever read John Grisham's book Bleachers? For a novel, it is a great book about leadership and how leaders are often deeply hated. It's a quick read if you ever have a free afternoon - good for a snow day when it's best to stay curled up at home.

*Right before Christmas I heard they had come out with a new list - Cheesiest movie lines of all time. One of them is from the movie Jerry McGuire: "You had me at hello." I think this aptly describes the relationship I mentioned to you several weeks ago. It seems that since the first time I ever saw this person and he said "Hello" to me (and at the time I had no idea who he was - wouldn't find out until three months later) I have been "for" him - no matter what he says or does to me or about me, I am unable to turn my back or walk away. Something mysterious inside me just won't allow that to happen.

On the other hand, I have finally come to realize that I will never be able to say or do or be or possess anything that will ever cause him to be "for" me - to turn toward me. I don't have that kind of power. In fact, I am completely impotent. I don't know if that is something that only he can do, or if this "mysterious something" would have to do it, but I know that I cannot. So, I have given up trying. That's what I've been doing for years. Trying to do or say or be enough of whatever it is that would change his mind about me. Finally I realized that it's not up to me.

It's odd, realizing that nothing I say or do matters. Suddenly, I, who always seemed to have something to say to him, am speechless.

As I re-read your email, it occurred to me that perhaps you think I am "unhappy" with [my church] and should consider leaving. I guess this is what makes me different from other people. When I state an opinion or express a concern, I don't see that as a negative or an expression of "unhappiness" so much as a request for clarification. "The devil is in the details" and often, all I want is to understand what has led to the decision or position. Even if I don't agree or would rather it be my way, most of the time I am supportive. And even if I am not, I don't think that is grounds for division or separation or for being labeled. I don't understand when people think that differing opinions automatically means that we can't be or are not unified. In many ways, unity is staying friends despite our differences.

Too often, people assume that I am taking SIDES when, in fact, I am seeking clarification so that I can support the STAND. I'm sure that the person of whom I spoke earlier believes that I have taken an adversarial position against him because I have expressed disagreement or asked for clarification (which I never receive) when, in fact, I am his champion. I think he is brilliant, gifted, annointed, and Spirit-led and I never speak of him in a negative light. (That's why I have not and will not give you his name. Even the fact that he is not "for" me and never will be is not something I see as negative, but more as a misunderstanding.) I am completely "for" him and what he is doing. I don't always understand so I have questioned and expressed concern. And I have been awarded with many labels and red letters. I can only assume that he does not see me as I truly am. But I will continue to be his champion even though he will never be mine. "Father, forgive him. He just doesn't know."


I think people often misunderstand or misrepresent what the Bible has to say about unity. Often, unity is defined as pretending to get along or acting like we agree when we don't. That is not Biblical unity. It is a counterfeit. In this system, the peace of Matt. 5:9, Phil. 2:2, and Eph. 4:3 is false and hypocritical. This is the "Peace, peace where there is no peace" of Jeremiah.

I think that true Biblical unity comes when peace is made when there is no peace - when concerns are addressed and questions are answered instead of being ignored or used as grounds to label people as troublemakers. As they say, peace comes through TRUTH, not TRUCE. Sharing concerns in an environment of safety and oftentimes, simply being helped to understand the "why" of a decision or position or situation is all that is necessary to "maintain" peace (which is actually the true scriptural interpretation). When questions and concerns are ignored or labeled as divisive, etc., the assumption is that something inappropriate is taking place. You don't hide what is appropriate.

As a leader, I would love it if no one ever questioned or disagreed or opposed me. But, because of the labels I myself have received, I try to be diligent in not labeling those folks as disloyal, unsubmissive, divisive, or as challenging my authority. I try to convey an atmosphere where people can bring their questions and concerns to me and know that they will be heard and not judged for expressing them or kept from using their gifts in the church. Because I know that my own heart has been "right:" when I have expressed concerns, I begin with the premise that those who question are much like me and are approaching me not to be cantankerous, but because they truly believe they have valid concerns. I would be doing them a disservice to base my opinion of them on the fact that they care enough to share those concerns with me. In fact, I often ask people who have a differing viewpoint for their input because I know that they may have insight that I do not.

It's really so very sad that those of us who care deeply become so beaten down that we learn to keep our heads down and our mouths closed. "Peace, peace when there is no peace."


*Good to hear from you again.

Have a good week



I'm sure that will be another "eyefull" for the pastor. I am taking delight in knowing that he is so "interested" in my welfare. :D :eek: :rolleyes:

Florence

[Doug64]

Hi Florence:

It sounds as if you are having a 'fun' time with this. It probably won't sink in to the person you are corresponding with, though.

I got to where I said little in staff meetings at work because I got attacked so often. It got better after I finally confronted my immediate supervisor, essentially indicating to him I thought I was being subjected to religious persecution.

Regarding church leadership, it seems to be a rareity for those in charge to welcome any different opinion. They may ask for input, but proceed in the way they planned all along.

I hope today is going well for you.

Doug :cool:

[ex-shep]

As I shared our conversation with my husband, also with tears, I was chastising myself for getting so emotional about something that I should be getting used to when I began to wonder if perhaps my tears are not my own but perhaps are those of the Holy Spirit who dwells within me (ICor. 3:16). It's amazing to me to think that my tears are not a sign of my own weakness or inability to "get a grip" or any of those other accusations I have endured because of the tender-heartedness I have had toward church hurts. Perhaps my tears are rather the tears of a loving and compassionate God who feels deeply the wounds and pain put upon us by those who claim the name "Christian." After all, if He can use my hands and feet to reach out and share His love, can He not also use my heart and eyes to weep for those whom He loves?



Already prayed for you and your friends. For me it goes to prove we need more lighthouses and refuges for spiritual abuse,

I feel the same type of tearful compassion for Tammy. Some days it is depression. Many times it is heartfelt compassion for her. Somehow she deserves better. With God's help, I am sure she will. It must be mystical component how one watches out for another. I used to fight it all the time. Now I quietly roll with it and see what evolves. Great observations. Let latte on Me,

[Florence]

Hi Florence:

It sounds as if you are having a 'fun' time with this. It probably won't sink in to the person you are corresponding with, though.

I got to where I said little in staff meetings at work because I got attacked so often. It got better after I finally confronted my immediate supervisor, essentially indicating to him I thought I was being subjected to religious persecution.

Regarding church leadership, it seems to be a rareity for those in charge to welcome any different opinion. They may ask for input, but proceed in the way they planned all along.

I hope today is going well for you.

Doug :cool:

Oh, it will sink in - this is exactly what they are looking for - remember the old song "You're So Vain"? He'll know this song is about him. There was a time when I played the spy for the pastor and I know how it works. Anything that I say to this person is repeated to the pastor - whether through email or casual conversation and email is much preferred over hear-say. While I'm sure the spy will understand exactly who and what I am talking about, even if they don't, they will forward the email and the pastor will know. He'll recognize himself immediately from other conversation that we have had over the years.

I have talked my self blue in the face with this guy over the years about how I believe I have been treated. He was not interested. Told me I wasn't in his top 100. I should have given up trying way back then. But, hey, if he wants to send spies out, I must be in his top 2500 (the church has about 3000 attenders).

True about most church leadership. That's why I try so hard to be a listener and to gather input. It may or may not affect my decision, but if it does not, I will certainly be very careful to have an answer as to why my decision has not changed - and it won't be "Because I'm in charge." I don't know how often listening should result in changing minds on either side, but I do try to at least reach a point where I and the other person understand one another.

Yep - great day! Thanks! Hope you are, too.
Florence

[standing still]

I think you need to get out of that church. That is not a healthy system of growth for you. Deep down there is no trust.

Pal

Remember how I said the pastor passed by and saw "Judy" and me talking? Well, call me paranoid, but late last night I got an email from someone in the church who was actually vice president of the elders when I brought up my concerns about the music pastor a few years ago. This person is very, very close to the pastor. Every once in a while, I get an email from this person or an invitation to have coffee or we have a "chance" meeting in the foyer of the church. These communications always seem to have an uncanny timing to them and for a long time I have suspected that the pastor sends this person to talk to me to find out "just where I am at" in my feelings about the church, how I am being treated, etc. I haven't communicated with this person in months - never told anyone except my references that I had applied for a job at the church.

Anyway, I get this email and it says: "When I hear some of the things you have been through in the name of ministry I wonder how you manage to keep a positive attitude. Maybe you don't. It's difficult for me to understand why the "church" loves to put labels on things and if you are in this category then you can't be a good person to work in this or that place."

I'm thinking that since the pastor saw "Judy" and me talking (and kleenex being used), he has given this person the mission of finding out "how I'm doing." I believe this person is a pawn who really doesn't understand that any information they take back to the pastor will only be used against me. I'm sure it is presented in that loving, caring, Mr. Roger's kind of way that makes this person think that the pastor is only wanting to find out what's going on in case he can "help" in some way but that he isn't able to speak to me himself because of my past "church hurts."

I was rather proud of my response. Here it is:

What a nice surprise to hear from you! Your emails have uncanny timing . . .

Hmmm . . . how do I keep a positive attitude? Or do I? Not always. I don't always cling to Jesus, but I am convinced that He always clings to me . . . "O Love that will not let me go."

I am learning to say, "Okay God, I don't know what You're up to because from where I'm standing things look pretty bleak. But You are God (and I'm not) and no matter what has or is or will happen, I'm just going to keep my focus on You - because You are worthy of being first in my life. In all that I say. In all that I do. Wherever I am. Whatever happens."

I had a brother and sister duo that were students of mine at [Bible college where I taught] come to [my work church] to sing today. As people came by afterward to thank them for coming, one lady asked how we knew each other. The brother said, "She was our favorite teacher at [college]. We really miss her." He went on to say that I had high expectations of them both musically and as people involved in ministry - and that my love, care, and encouragement had helped them to move far beyond what they ever thought they could do or be. It doesn't get any better than that.

I also spoke to someone today who told me that she had heard that I was "unfit" to work at [my home church]. I don't know where she heard it or why she felt compelled to tell me that but I know it doesn't get much worse than that. I just don't understand why I have to hear these things through the grape vine . . .

Okay, it's late and I'm rambling . . .

Good night.

That should give the pastor a little something to chew on for a while.
Florence

[Florence]

Hi Pal,
Welcome to the forum. Nice to see you stirring the waters on that other thread.

As to leaving my church, folks that have been around here awhile know that I have a rather unusual set of circumstances. You could look at all of my posts but I believe I surpassed the 100 mark today so I'll to put it in a (big) nutshell.

Several years ago, we were abused in a small, non-denominational, anti-charismatic, anti-female church. After leaving that church we began attending our current "home" church of which this thread speaks. This church has been a place of major healing and growth. I had vowed to to never do any 'work' (I was a volunteer at the abusive church) for a church again, so instead, I became a professor at a Bible college, teaching, training, mentoring, and supervising pastoral ministries candidates in the area of worship.

Over time, I experienced enough healing to become involved in my home church's worship ministry but soon discovered that the (then new) music minister was a man of questionable character and integrity. After following the pattern of Matthew 18, I discovered that because I had pointed out the problems, I was labeled as the problem. The pastor, though, in his charming, Mr. Roger's way, always led me to believe that he was on my side, so to speak. Eventually, when I was sought for the position at another local church, he encouraged me to take it.

I currently am employed by a mid-sized church (as a music minister/worship leader) that is highly dysfunctional and they sought me (I did not apply for the job - they came looking for me) brought me on staff to help them heal and transition after decades of unhealthy behavior by previous pastors, staff and the congregation. I knew going in that it would not be an easy job and it has proven even more difficult than I had imagined.

In the mean time, a music minister position opened up at my home church (the other guy had left) and I, believing that after all these years (about 7) I would have "lived down" my past "sin" of pointing out the problems, applied. That's when I was told that I was "unfit" for a position at my own church and would have to "measure up" before I would ever be considered to participate in any ministry there.

While at first this was very triggering for me, I have discovered that over the years and through all of my experiences, I have become very strong and really, I believe, quite healthy. Especially in the past few months I have learned not to let the stuff at either my home church or my work church get to me. I am really enjoying the ride.

I think one of the most helpful comments was made to me by Jerry (correct me if I'm wrong on this, okay Jerry?). He pointed out to me that every church has some level of abuse going on in it and it's up to me to decide how much I can live with. Well, I realized that I can live with quite a bit - even enjoy playing the game. (That sounds terrible, doesn't it?)

Oh, I almost forgot: I am able to attend both churches each Sunday. I go to work and then make it to the third service at my home church. I must say, I am very well fed by the pastor's teaching and enjoy the fellowship and friendship of many, many people in my home church - something that is not happening where I work - that's another story for another day. The pastor really is a marvelous teacher - and I enjoy the services.

I am a fairly outspoken person - not afraid to ask questions or express my opinion. I know it is freaking the pastor out seeing me sitting right up front every Sunday months after I was told I would not be considered for the position. :D :D :D

Okay, bring on the tongue lashing. I can take it.
Florence

[Jerry]

Dear Florence,,,
Now your getting to the really fun part of recovery,,,,,,,,,,makin them nutz :D
Love Jerry

[standing still]

First time I have read this post. No toungue lashing from me. I appreciate the in depth revelation. It's good to hear that.

I am presently going to a church in Charlotte, NC, that is led by David Chadwyck, a former final four basketball player under Dean Smith at UNC. There is something quite exciting that seems to be unfolding. This church has about 4,000 members. Last week, David said he was throwing out all the rules and regulations. He said he was tired of people coming to Sunday worship and thinking that they were getting their needs met spritually by looking at the back of the head in front of them in a Sunday service. He was really frustrated with himself, and became incensed at himself, and the church in generral at what they had allowed to grow up around them. He was decrying the traditional church systems. It was beautiful. It will really be neat to see what happens in the near future.

They have the best music worship I have ever witnessed. It is absolutely awesome. It is really what drew me in to begin with. It is the first time in a very long time I have any sort of comfort in a tradtional church setting. To see the apparent open and vulnerable metamorphesis by the head man is intriguing.

However, I'm stiil holding out that my family will be reunited, and that we can get on track to develop a ministry I have been dreaming about for years.

klmministries.ihostvm.com/home.html

(put in the entire link with no www in front of you ever get a chance to go there. I would love to hear your comments, or any contructive comments you might have.) It really goes against the grain of the traditional church system. If God would allow it, I would use it to offset the traditional church's immobilization of the church as I see it today.)

Hi Pal,
Welcome to the forum. Nice to see you stirring the waters on that other thread.

As to leaving my church, folks that have been around here awhile know that I have a rather unusual set of circumstances. You could look at all of my posts but I believe I surpassed the 100 mark today so I'll to put it in a (big) nutshell.

Several years ago, we were abused in a small, non-denominational, anti-charismatic, anti-female church. After leaving that church we began attending our current "home" church of which this thread speaks. This church has been a place of major healing and growth. I had vowed to to never do any 'work' (I was a volunteer at the abusive church) for a church again, so instead, I became a professor at a Bible college, teaching, training, mentoring, and supervising pastoral ministries candidates in the area of worship.

Over time, I experienced enough healing to become involved in my home church's worship ministry but soon discovered that the (then new) music minister was a man of questionable character and integrity. After following the pattern of Matthew 18, I discovered that because I had pointed out the problems, I was labeled as the problem. The pastor, though, in his charming, Mr. Roger's way, always led me to believe that he was on my side, so to speak. Eventually, when I was sought for the position at another local church, he encouraged me to take it.

I currently am employed by a mid-sized church (as a music minister/worship leader) that is highly dysfunctional and they sought me (I did not apply for the job - they came looking for me) brought me on staff to help them heal and transition after decades of unhealthy behavior by previous pastors, staff and the congregation. I knew going in that it would not be an easy job and it has proven even more difficult than I had imagined.

In the mean time, a music minister position opened up at my home church (the other guy had left) and I, believing that after all these years (about 7) I would have "lived down" my past "sin" of pointing out the problems, applied. That's when I was told that I was "unfit" for a position at my own church and would have to "measure up" before I would ever be considered to participate in any ministry there.

While at first this was very triggering for me, I have discovered that over the years and through all of my experiences, I have become very strong and really, I believe, quite healthy. Especially in the past few months I have learned not to let the stuff at either my home church or my work church get to me. I am really enjoying the ride.

I think one of the most helpful comments was made to me by Jerry (correct me if I'm wrong on this, okay Jerry?). He pointed out to me that every church has some level of abuse going on in it and it's up to me to decide how much I can live with. Well, I realized that I can live with quite a bit - even enjoy playing the game. (That sounds terrible, doesn't it?)

Oh, I almost forgot: I am able to attend both churches each Sunday. I go to work and then make it to the third service at my home church. I must say, I am very well fed by the pastor's teaching and enjoy the fellowship and friendship of many, many people in my home church - something that is not happening where I work - that's another story for another day. The pastor really is a marvelous teacher - and I enjoy the services.

I am a fairly outspoken person - not afraid to ask questions or express my opinion. I know it is freaking the pastor out seeing me sitting right up front every Sunday months after I was told I would not be considered for the position. :D :D :D

Okay, bring on the tongue lashing. I can take it.
Florence

[mirror]

While at first this was very triggering for me, I have discovered that over the years and through all of my experiences, I have become very strong and really, I believe, quite healthy. Especially in the past few months I have learned not to let the stuff at either my home church or my work church get to me. I am really enjoying the ride.

I think one of the most helpful comments was made to me by Jerry (correct me if I'm wrong on this, okay Jerry?). He pointed out to me that every church has some level of abuse going on in it and it's up to me to decide how much I can live with. Well, I realized that I can live with quite a bit - even enjoy playing the game. (That sounds terrible, doesn't it?)

No, it sounds amazing! How do you do it? After escaping the clutches of our last church, I feel, even a year later, as though it wouldn't take much to make me run! How can you get so strong? Yes, every church has some level of abuse! I know the two churches we now attend will show some sign of it soon enough. I'm just afraid of how I'll react when I see it. I'm not usually one who runs from trouble. I'm usually one who faces it head on, and figures out the best way to deal with it. But when it comes to spiritual abuse, I feel like my heart is exposed, and even a little bump will bruise it. I want to protect it. I want to protect me, for once in my life. I realize how selfish that sounds, but at times, I don't care how selfish it is. We stayed 5 years at that last church... and I was begging my husband to get us out after only 2. I don't want to do that again. I just don't!

mirror

[Florence]

No, it sounds amazing! How do you do it? After escaping the clutches of our last church, I feel, even a year later, as though it wouldn't take much to make me run! How can you get so strong? Yes, every church has some level of abuse! I know the two churches we now attend will show some sign of it soon enough. I'm just afraid of how I'll react when I see it. I'm not usually one who runs from trouble. I'm usually one who faces it head on, and figures out the best way to deal with it. But when it comes to spiritual abuse, I feel like my heart is exposed, and even a little bump will bruise it. I want to protect it. I want to protect me, for once in my life. I realize how selfish that sounds, but at times, I don't care how selfish it is. We stayed 5 years at that last church... and I was begging my husband to get us out after only 2. I don't want to do that again. I just don't!

mirror

mirror,

It has been an incredibly slow process. I must say that I cannot take credit for it - God just would not let me go. I had been a very strong person - and I think that was one of the reasons the pastor at that first church "went after" me. He knew the Bible and was especially brutal in using it to constantly attack and beat me down as a woman, as a wife, as a "lesser-than." When we left that church, I just wanted to move to the mountains and live where I didn't have to see people except once or twice a year for supplies. I walked around in shame and humiliation and was shunned, ignored, and threatened.

We didn't plan on attending church ever again, but, as I said, God would not let me go, and through the radio we heard a church in a nearby town that had a pastor whose sermon series was on how the church should extend the unconditional love and healing of God to any and everyone. After listening for two weeks, we decided to go there "just for this series." We've been there ever since, and for the most part, it is a good place. I have to say that for this area, they are "doing it better" than anyone else.

Still, I kept my head down. I would not get involved and just stayed anonymous. Then the call came from the president of the local Bible college asking me if I would consider a position working with ministry teams - training, mentoring, supervising, etc. I wasn't looking for a job - God just had other plans. I told the president that I would meet with him, but that I would not take the job unless he and I were both completely convinced that God wanted me there. He later told me that as soon as I said that, he knew I was the person they were looking for.

I worked there for five years very successfully - and gradually, as I was able to see that people (many on the staff were pastors as well as professors and administrators) trusted, supported, encouraged, and loved me at my job, my fear began to subside and I was able to take tiny steps in raising my head at the church. I was still incredibly frightened of the senior pastor - I could barely say "Hello" to him in the hallway - but I did get involved and the closer I got to the "inner circle" the more I discovered that it was not a perfect place.

When I expressed concern about the new worship pastor (who was saying and doing outrageous stuff), I was told by the personnell committee that I was no longer welcome to be involved in the worship ministry because the staff must be supported at all times and my bringing up these issues indicated that I did not support him (point out the problem and you ARE the problem).

After a time, I was asked to lead the worship team for the women's ministry (since the worship pastor was a man, he didn't do anything with the women's ministry, so that made it okay) and that's when I discovered that it really is who you are and how much money you have that determines whether or not you will be supported by the pastor. There were two very wealthy women on that team who didn't feel I should be the leader because I didn't measure up to their financial status, so they undermined me until I finally decided to quit.

All through this time, I was reading books and taking classes on leadership, Boundaries, Changes that Heal, etc. and I was gradually raising my head. Then the call came from another local church asking me to help them rebuild and move forward. I made an appointment with my pastor and asked for his advice and he strongly encouraged me to take the position - not sure if it was because he thought I would do well there or if he saw it as an opportunity to get me out of his church since I had been branded as "unsupportive" several years before for pointing out some problems.

Anyway, to make a long story even longer, I left the Bible college and went to work for the sister church and in seeing how screwed up these people are, I have been able to realize that I'm not such a bad person after all - certainly no worse than anyone else. I have also been able to see that I did not always handle things as well as I could have - because I deal regularly with people who are quick to point out what they perceive as problems with my ministry. While it is tempting to see them as "the problem for pointing out the problem," I am careful to treat them with respect and dignity, even if I don't see things their way.

But, it did take being rejected by my own church for a staff position that finally brought me to a place of being able to pull myself up to my full height and declare, "NO! I WILL NOT TRY TO REACH THAT BAR YOU ARE HOLDING." And while it has taken a few months, I have been experiencing a strength I have not known in years. And a lack of fear.

It is as though the very thing I feared the most - rejection by the pastor - finally happened in a full and complete way and by experiencing that, I realized that I no longer had to fear it. Kind of like when you fear surgery, but when it's over, you don't have to fear it anymore.

Sorry this is so long. I guess it just shows that it has been a very long process for me and I know that there very well might be set backs. But right now, I'm just enjoying the ride - something I haven't been able to do in many, many years.

Florence

[mirror]

He knew the Bible and was especially brutal in using it to constantly attack and beat me down as a woman, as a wife, as a "lesser-than." When we left that church, I just wanted to move to the mountains and live where I didn't have to see people except once or twice a year for supplies. I walked around in shame and humiliation and was shunned, ignored, and threatened.
I think you must be describing the church we left. I wasn't strong, however, but respectful and obedient, I think that is what led the pastor to me. Hubby was youth pastor, and I was submissive slave (because we know what Paul said about women... and the pastor added plenty of his own beliefs about women :p ). Being an extreme introvert (because of other past abuse) I would have been quite happy to hide out on a mountain somewhere, and send family out once or twice a year for supplies!

Still, I kept my head down. I would not get involved and just stayed anonymous.
That's why we chose to attend a huge church. Won't be noticed as much as a small one. Well, to be honest, we also attend a small one, but my father is the pastor there, and I've knowne him for years! He's not spiritually abusive! :D

I was still incredibly frightened of the senior pastor - I could barely say "Hello" to him in the hallway - but I did get involved and the closer I got to the "inner circle" the more I discovered that it was not a perfect place.

When I expressed concern about the new worship pastor (who was saying and doing outrageous stuff), I was told by the personnell committee that I was no longer welcome to be involved in the worship ministry because the staff must be supported at all times and my bringing up these issues indicated that I did not support him (point out the problem and you ARE the problem).
You're describing our former church again. Once I'd pointed out a problem, (thinking it was someone's mistake, not something the pastor himself had chosen to do) I was no longer obedient and submissive. I was no longer "protected". :confused: Suddenly, I was told, over and over what I was doing wrong: not wearing dresses to church, errors I made in the bulletin & newsletter, my ideas were no longer "good ideas", they were all but ignored. Hubby was still fully accepted, and my "shunning" was well hidden from him. :(

But, it did take being rejected by my own church for a staff position that finally brought me to a place of being able to pull myself up to my full height and declare, "NO! I WILL NOT TRY TO REACH THAT BAR YOU ARE HOLDING." And while it has taken a few months, I have been experiencing a strength I have not known in years. And a lack of fear.

It is as though the very thing I feared the most - rejection by the pastor - finally happened in a full and complete way and by experiencing that, I realized that I no longer had to fear it.

That's one thing I can't seem to do! When something happens that I fear most, it only causes me to fear it happening over and over... and it usually does! Granted, the pastor at our former church ended up being completely.... I don't even know the word for it! He ended up "retiring" due to health problems after we left. Not before he got the church to agree to allow him and his wife to live in the parsonage for life. Not before he got the church to agree that if he ever had to retire, they'd start paying his salary to his wife for her secretary work. Not before he set things up so that even upon his retirement, he'd still be in charge of everything. He's listed now as "pastor emeritus". The associate pastor now does all the preaching & teaching, without being paid a penny! The organist/pianist finally got fed up with it and announced in church one day that from that point forward, her tithe (yes, the pastor preached the 10%, and assured everyone that 20% was even better :rolleyes: ) would be her organ/piano playing because she would no longer pay the Pastor's wife. The next week, the pastor emeritus pulled her aside and told her she was no longer welcome to play the organ/piano. She never went back either.

The pastor's wife also flaunted her wickedness (it's the only word I know to describe it). Some food had been brought in for the food pantry (the pastor was always begging & scolding us for not keeping it fully supplied). After church, the pastor's wife went over to the food, said aloud "Hmmmm, what shall we have for dinner?" and picked out several items to take home for themselves. Part of why she thought she could do that is that the pastor was always bragging how he gave up his weekly paycheck so they could pay church bills (trying to get everyone to tithe, of course). Funny, though, when the quarterly financial information came out, there was a check going to him each week... none was missed! On top of that, his wife has a convertable and he drives a new Lincoln Towncar.

Sorry. Just had to vent a bit. Can't do that most places without being called a gossip (which all of you know is as awful a thing as drinking & smoking... but anger - the problem our pastor often had - is OK because even Christ got angry :eek: )

mirror

[Florence]

I think you must be describing the church we left. . . and I was submissive slave (because we know what Paul said about women... and the pastor added plenty of his own beliefs about women :p ). "

I have to say, at my church, the pastor just preached about women in this church - there are about 20 women on staff there - and how women are not "less than" but are "equal to" men. That's a definite plus at this church.

"That's why we chose to attend a huge church. Won't be noticed as much as a small one."

My church is huge, too - 2500 folks on a typical Sunday - that was another reason we felt okay going there.

"Suddenly, I was told, over and over what I was doing wrong: not wearing dresses to church, errors I made in the bulletin & newsletter, my ideas were no longer "good ideas", they were all but ignored. Hubby was still fully accepted, and my "shunning" was well hidden from him. :( "

Yes, happened to me, too. I was even called on the carpet for my driving - I was driving our 4X4 with the 380 engine and I had pulled away from an intersection just outside the church parking lot. It was spring but there was a lot of sand at the intersection from the winter road treatments and when I pulled into traffic my tires did a little spin. I was told my driving was an indication of my rebellious heart.

"That's one thing I can't seem to do! When something happens that I fear most, it only causes me to fear it happening over and over... and it usually does!"

That's what I expected, too. I can't really explain why the change this time. I just know I'm a different person now - stronger and fearless. Maybe it's because I have had that strong support in my job at the Bible college and because I am highly successful in my current church position. Makes it easy for me to sit down front and rub their noses in it, so to speak.

"On top of that, his wife has a convertable and he drives a new Lincoln Towncar."

I am so laughing hysterically! The pastor I work for is a piece of work somewhat like the fellow you are describing. He talks all the time about how he never questions how much they offer to pay him when they draw up a new budget each year. Well, of course not! He demanded a $100,000 per year package before he would even consider the position! And then he got his wife into a staff position in an area she has absolutely no knowledge or training in - 10 hours per week at $15,000 per year. And she drives a convertible and he just bought a honkin' big SUV. Not to mention the mansion they bought when they moved to town and their $26,000 per year house decorating budget and his 6 weeks of paid vacation per year. The youth guy was getting $28,000 with no benefits - no insurance for himself or his family, nothing!

"Sorry. Just had to vent a bit. Can't do that most places without being called a gossip (which all of you know is as awful a thing as drinking & smoking... but anger - the problem our pastor often had - is OK because even Christ got angry :eek: )"

Only his anger is okay, though, right? You get angry, I get angry, and we are just out-of-control Jezabel types. Our youth guy resigned at the end of the year. I just talked to him this week and we decided it's not gossip when we are simply affirming one another's experiences. Thanks for the great post!

mirror

Florence

[Florence]

Okay, I was trying to change the post to get the quotes right and not have it look like the whole thing was Mirror's post but in trying to get it figured out, I apparently took to long and the system wouldn't let me complete the edit. Hope the post isn't too confusing - like this system sometimes is! Okay, I'll go back to being patient now.

Florence

[mirror]

I have to say, at my church, the pastor just preached about women in this church - there are about 20 women on staff there - and how women are not "less than" but are "equal to" men. That's a definite plus at this church. That's great! My current pastor (Dad) is all for women doing whatever men do. He always has been. In fact, when I was growing up, if Dad was sick and couldn't preach, Mom took his place. Stand by for a shocker, but I've preached a couple of times for him as well! (I NEVER told our former pastor that! It would have secured my position as a condemned woman for sure... boy will he be surprised to find me when he gets to heaven... come to think of it, I'll be surprised to see him if he gets there!)

I was told my driving was an indication of my rebellious heart. I'm legalistic when it comes to driving & obeying laws. Before the shunning, I was almost = to pastor when it came to that point (I've ridden with him, and in spite of what he says, he does NOT stay within the speed limit). Funny, though, hubby was never looked down on, and he's been known to speed now & then. Suppose it's because he was a MAN :eek: ?
That's what I expected, too. I can't really explain why the change this time. I just know I'm a different person now - stronger and fearless. Maybe it's because I have had that strong support in my job at the Bible college and because I am highly successful in my current church position. Makes it easy for me to sit down front and rub their noses in it, so to speak. That's what impresses me most! I doubt that I will ever consider myself "highly successful" in any position! I'm happy if I can consider myself "not as much a failure as I usually am". :D LOL!

I am so laughing hysterically! The pastor I work for is a piece of work somewhat like the fellow you are describing. He talks all the time about how he never questions how much they offer to pay him when they draw up a new budget each year. Well, of course not! He demanded a $100,000 per year package before he would even consider the position! And then he got his wife into a staff position in an area she has absolutely no knowledge or training in - 10 hours per week at $15,000 per year. And she drives a convertible and he just bought a honkin' big SUV. Not to mention the mansion they bought when they moved to town and their $26,000 per year house decorating budget and his 6 weeks of paid vacation per year. That sounds just like them! He likes to brag on how his lovely perfect wife manages to find beautiful clothes at such a bargain, and how she does "almost all of her shopping" at Goodwill. Ummm, well, she DOES do a little shopping there, usually to find office equipment when the church needed something. Only once has she told us a dress was one she found at Goodwill. Most are from upperclass clothing stores.

The church also sends them to "minister" to Hilton Head for a week each year, and to "minister" to Florida for a week each year (where they have a time-share apartment by the beach).

Only his anger is okay, though, right? You get angry, I get angry, and we are just out-of-control Jezabel types. Our youth guy resigned at the end of the year. I just talked to him this week and we decided it's not gossip when we are simply affirming one another's experiences. Thanks for the great post! Exactly! His is "righteous anger" ours is sinful! He was once called out on that one. He lost his temper with someone he was "trying" to win for Christ. Someone from the church called him on that, pointing out it WASN'T righteous anger. He has preached on that one time, over and over, reminding us that even he makes mistakes, and how wonderful he was for admitting to it and getting it all squared away immediately.

I'm impressed you can talk to others who left. When we left, we got together with a couple who had left earlier. They talked about everything but the church. They wouldn't let us bring it up at all. Others who have left since won't talk about it either. The only people who want to talk about that church are people who still attend and think we want to hear how great the pastor is.

Okay, I was trying to change the post to get the quotes right and not have it look like the whole thing was Mirror's post but in trying to get it figured out, I apparently took to long and the system wouldn't let me complete the edit. Hope the post isn't too confusing - like this system sometimes is! Okay, I'll go back to being patient now.

It's OK. It took me a minute or two, but I got it! :)

mirror

[Florence]

I'll bet the stuff from Goodwill isn't in his office! When I was hired, my office was created in a storage room in the basement with an old metal desk and book case from the church-owned thrift store. The carpet is a remnant from the garage floor of the youth house and my chair is the own they took out of his wife's office when she came on staff - complete with foam padding sticking out of the arms where the filthy upholstery has completely worn away.

And wow, the trips - the pastor I work for has a time share in Hawaii where they go for two weeks every year. I get four Sundays off a year and I have to do all the prep for the coming Sunday before I leave - some vacation, huh?

My pay is fairly decent for a half-time job but Ihad to fight for every penny of it. When I was hired, they told me they expected it to take 10-12 hours per week. I made them promise that if it was more than that, they would make the necessary adjustments. What I immediately discovered was that the meetings, rehearsals, and services took more than that amount of time and I still hadn't done any prep work. So I asked for them to re-evaluate and was told they didn't have the money to compensate me for the 20+ hours a week I was putting in. I finally had to threaten to quit and tell them that their integrity was in question since they and the pastor were not keeping their word about this issue. Once I threatened to quit, the raise came. Amazing how that happens. And this from a church with half a million dollars in the bank.

My hours outside of rehearsals and Sunday morning are very flexible. Right now with two teenage boys in the house, it's perfect in that respect. I liken it to anyone who has a job with a place they don't really agree with completely, but they continue to work because they need the money. I know that is very hypocritical when it comes to the church, but I have prayed and agonized over it and I am trusting that when God has something else for me, He will make it clear and I will move on. He knows our needs and He has provided this place to meet them for now. I just continue to do the best job I can under the circumstances while I wait.

It did just occur to me this week that I couldn't ask for a more challenging place to do ministry - all a completely different topic so I won't expound any further here. But, let me tell you, these kinds of things happen nearly everywhere.

Thanks, Mirror. I enjoy the dialogue.
Florence