Reg
12-02-2004, 11:16 AM
What got me to post this is the thread on What WasYour Pastor's Response When You Left?
I have a lot on this and was going over some emails I sent and discussed some of my friends still in the wcg who didn't see it. (He has since left and sees it now.)
Here's one that explains a lot about the way it was back then in 1997 when I left. It's an interesting dialogue. Hope you get some good stuff from it.
---------------------------
Hi again Tom,
>> Tom, and still quite happy in WCG
Likewise, happy at BBC. :)
Reg
P.S. Here's one last comment someone sent me. Yes, it is sad. Not so much for me but for the overall state of things for so many who were really hurt & still R. U know I'm OK, in fact more than OK. NOW I can get on with my spiritual life. I am leaving all the spiritual baggage behind. It's just the ones who are still left in the WCG who R not being helped but hurt even more. Yes, very sad. :(:(
>> (- you can't say that Reg, you DON'T know how some of us feel. Tom ) 8-0)
YES I do Tom! Many have told me personally. Remember Tom, I have been around for nearly 30 years. I know a lot of people & YES I do Know how many feel. Not everyone, naturally. I'm glad you're still happy. Ask Tara how she feels for one & just LISTEN. K? Reg
>> You were saying, quote, 'It's just the ones who are still left in the WCG who R not being helped but hurt even more. Yes, very sad. :(
I was not referring to everyone, just those I know who R hurting & NOT being helped by any support group within the WCG. They have to go elsewhere for that special kind of help.
>> This is not the same as saying 'many' or 'some' - what you're saying here is 'those who are left in the WCG are hurt and not being helped' - that's plain English. If you feel you left the spiritual baggage behind I hope you don't fall right back into it - you're lumping the whole fellowship as sad and unhelped, which is not accurate, and critical, painting vastly different picture to how I feel.
Please don't misunderstand me Tom. No I'm not - see above. I know of some areas that R thriving. But, for me Toronto is on the decline. Isn't it obvious?
>> And you have been that way for some time for whatever hurt you've suffered in this fellowship in the past - it was subtle, but it was always there. I know, it's not easy, and the scars will probably linger for the rest of our lives to some extent. That kind of hurt does happen to us all but we must DEAL with it in the special way - I'm sure you've heard HOW. That stuff you can't 'leave behind,' regardless where you are.
Ah yes, but there is much that can be left behind. U really can't see it until U have left. Then U can see things much more clearly in an objective way. Even now I am starting to see even more than a couple of weeks ago. As long as U R apart of it, U will always be subjective in your assessment. The glasses U look through will be tinted with WCG colours.
>> It's amazing how we differ in opinion - there were times when I was disappointed with ALL people, but I understood why it had to happen. Today I feel like thanking MANY in the WCG whom I see and enjoy every Sabbath for whatever they are doing in their lives - their spirits truly shine, and from them I DO get encouragement, inspiration, joy - it's so nice for me to simply BE there. There are, naturally, problems, and people who do not have that joy. I thank God for the peace and joy that I now have, but I also know (as never before) there are a lot of 'mountains that have to be levelled' in my life, and 'valleys that have to be raised.'
>> I have listened to Tara, and have seen her IN THE WCG experiencing a major turnaround, battling bitterness, disappointment, broken heart, etc, etc. She did come through all those, and by comparison, she is like a shining gem to what was happening with her before. Well, didn't you NOTICE when she was hurting? I'm sure you must have... She couldn't even look up, her face always down.
And she basically had to do it herself except for a few of us who became her friends & helped her. The WCG offered NO help except perhaps a talk with a minister. That doesn't even hold a candle to how other fellowships care for those who R going thru major traumas. They have specialty groups to help people. And they WORK!
<snip>
3. Loving Relationships should permeate every aspect of life.
We should foster an attitude of grace. In dealing with each other we should always be thinking, "What would be the loving thing to say or do. (From a Willowcreek Conference)
Peter was no dummy. He knew that the early Christians would fail in their effort to live by mutual love. But he would far rather have a glorious failure than not make the attempt. I remember reading the comments of several people who had come to the end of their life on this earth. They were asked what they would do differently if they could live their life over again. Almost as with one voice they answered that they would laugh more, love more, risk more. That is the problem with the Christian Church today, we are afraid of risking, collectively and individually. We too often prefer timid, quiet lives over the possibility of failure.
Miguel Unamuno, a Spanish philosopher, and foe of Francisco Franco, the Fascist dictator of Spain, had a favorite benediction which went like this, "may God deny you peace that He may grant you glory." Don't settle in your own life for the second rate, laugh more, love more, risk more!
Willowcreek is doing this.
A church that is working right will have a pastor that mobilizes the members to do the work of the ministry. "The Priesthood of All Believers"
4) Provide a Rich and Real Sense of Community In the Members.
" Make sure the members know that the sweetness of the fellowship makes up for more than the blood, sweat and tears of brotherhood."
13. "Outlived, Outloved, Outdied" a sermon of why and how the early Church grew so quickly and the implications for evangelism today.
The early church was a community characterized by one thing above all, it was a community of love. (Acts 2) And it is when the Church once again becomes a community of love that people will be drawn to Christ. In his book Community Making and Peace, M. Scott Peck a Christian psychiatrist, tells of lecture engagements in which he asks people not to speak to him during the intermission periods because he needs that time to renew his thoughts and his energy; and so he asks them to save their questions for the question period. Invariably, Scott Peck notes, people will approach him and when he would reminds them of his request they will burst out, "oh yes, Dr. Peck but so and so from my church is here and I can't let him/her hear my question because they might think poorly of me." (sound familiar?)
What a damning criticism of modern church life! Instead of that accepting, forgiving and understanding love which brings out the best in us, too often the Christian Church is a place where the masks we wear to hide our wounds and hurts, are made even thicker, more impenetrable, because we are afraid of being hurt rather than being loved. (Tom. Ask Tara about this.) You know what I am talking about don't you? We all do. We pretend to be strong and fearless in our faith but we feel something different on the inside. We feel the pressing weight of hurt and we long to share it with someone, anyone but we cannot, because the deepest things within us can only be shared when love is there to listen and to understand.
Comment: That is what I left behind!
And so we play it safe. We are polite and nice to each other but we don't love, because you see, there is a risk in loving. When we love we become vulnerable to great and overwhelming hurt. The Apostle Peter reminded his readers that in Christ, this was a hurt which was worth risking. In his book entitled "I Believe in the Church" David Watson writes these words:
To love at all is to be vulnerable. Love anything, and your heart will certainly be wrung and possibly broken. If you want to make sure of keeping it intact, you must give your heart to no one. . . . Wrap it up carefully round with hobbies and little luxuries; avoid all entanglements; lock it safe in a casket or coffin of your selfishness. But in that casket -- safe, dark, motionless, airless -- it will change. It will not be broken; it will become unbreakable.
Comment: Another BIG reason why I left. I can now step out & risk more because I am now coming to know a whole new community of believers that practice what they preach. It ain't perfect but it's a whole lot better than what I left behind!
The early Christians did not allow their hearts to become unbreakable but, like their master, they loved even to the point of letting their hearts become broken. And here we move to yet another characteristic of the early Church. Because if you love, really love, love God with all your heart, soul and mind. If you love to the very fullest, then you come to the place where you are willing to give the greatest gift of all, you are willing to give your very life in order to express that love.
Listen Tom. I hope U R happy there. My motives R not to get U to jump ship but to explain to U what is happening & WHY. U R one of the few people who knows me better than most. But there's a lot U don't know about me. My heart is pure in this. I have no ulterior motive but to do what I believe is Right. I consider U one of my friends & no matter what happens I want that to continue. K?
YBIJC & friend,
Reg
I have a lot on this and was going over some emails I sent and discussed some of my friends still in the wcg who didn't see it. (He has since left and sees it now.)
Here's one that explains a lot about the way it was back then in 1997 when I left. It's an interesting dialogue. Hope you get some good stuff from it.
---------------------------
Hi again Tom,
>> Tom, and still quite happy in WCG
Likewise, happy at BBC. :)
Reg
P.S. Here's one last comment someone sent me. Yes, it is sad. Not so much for me but for the overall state of things for so many who were really hurt & still R. U know I'm OK, in fact more than OK. NOW I can get on with my spiritual life. I am leaving all the spiritual baggage behind. It's just the ones who are still left in the WCG who R not being helped but hurt even more. Yes, very sad. :(:(
>> (- you can't say that Reg, you DON'T know how some of us feel. Tom ) 8-0)
YES I do Tom! Many have told me personally. Remember Tom, I have been around for nearly 30 years. I know a lot of people & YES I do Know how many feel. Not everyone, naturally. I'm glad you're still happy. Ask Tara how she feels for one & just LISTEN. K? Reg
>> You were saying, quote, 'It's just the ones who are still left in the WCG who R not being helped but hurt even more. Yes, very sad. :(
I was not referring to everyone, just those I know who R hurting & NOT being helped by any support group within the WCG. They have to go elsewhere for that special kind of help.
>> This is not the same as saying 'many' or 'some' - what you're saying here is 'those who are left in the WCG are hurt and not being helped' - that's plain English. If you feel you left the spiritual baggage behind I hope you don't fall right back into it - you're lumping the whole fellowship as sad and unhelped, which is not accurate, and critical, painting vastly different picture to how I feel.
Please don't misunderstand me Tom. No I'm not - see above. I know of some areas that R thriving. But, for me Toronto is on the decline. Isn't it obvious?
>> And you have been that way for some time for whatever hurt you've suffered in this fellowship in the past - it was subtle, but it was always there. I know, it's not easy, and the scars will probably linger for the rest of our lives to some extent. That kind of hurt does happen to us all but we must DEAL with it in the special way - I'm sure you've heard HOW. That stuff you can't 'leave behind,' regardless where you are.
Ah yes, but there is much that can be left behind. U really can't see it until U have left. Then U can see things much more clearly in an objective way. Even now I am starting to see even more than a couple of weeks ago. As long as U R apart of it, U will always be subjective in your assessment. The glasses U look through will be tinted with WCG colours.
>> It's amazing how we differ in opinion - there were times when I was disappointed with ALL people, but I understood why it had to happen. Today I feel like thanking MANY in the WCG whom I see and enjoy every Sabbath for whatever they are doing in their lives - their spirits truly shine, and from them I DO get encouragement, inspiration, joy - it's so nice for me to simply BE there. There are, naturally, problems, and people who do not have that joy. I thank God for the peace and joy that I now have, but I also know (as never before) there are a lot of 'mountains that have to be levelled' in my life, and 'valleys that have to be raised.'
>> I have listened to Tara, and have seen her IN THE WCG experiencing a major turnaround, battling bitterness, disappointment, broken heart, etc, etc. She did come through all those, and by comparison, she is like a shining gem to what was happening with her before. Well, didn't you NOTICE when she was hurting? I'm sure you must have... She couldn't even look up, her face always down.
And she basically had to do it herself except for a few of us who became her friends & helped her. The WCG offered NO help except perhaps a talk with a minister. That doesn't even hold a candle to how other fellowships care for those who R going thru major traumas. They have specialty groups to help people. And they WORK!
<snip>
3. Loving Relationships should permeate every aspect of life.
We should foster an attitude of grace. In dealing with each other we should always be thinking, "What would be the loving thing to say or do. (From a Willowcreek Conference)
Peter was no dummy. He knew that the early Christians would fail in their effort to live by mutual love. But he would far rather have a glorious failure than not make the attempt. I remember reading the comments of several people who had come to the end of their life on this earth. They were asked what they would do differently if they could live their life over again. Almost as with one voice they answered that they would laugh more, love more, risk more. That is the problem with the Christian Church today, we are afraid of risking, collectively and individually. We too often prefer timid, quiet lives over the possibility of failure.
Miguel Unamuno, a Spanish philosopher, and foe of Francisco Franco, the Fascist dictator of Spain, had a favorite benediction which went like this, "may God deny you peace that He may grant you glory." Don't settle in your own life for the second rate, laugh more, love more, risk more!
Willowcreek is doing this.
A church that is working right will have a pastor that mobilizes the members to do the work of the ministry. "The Priesthood of All Believers"
4) Provide a Rich and Real Sense of Community In the Members.
" Make sure the members know that the sweetness of the fellowship makes up for more than the blood, sweat and tears of brotherhood."
13. "Outlived, Outloved, Outdied" a sermon of why and how the early Church grew so quickly and the implications for evangelism today.
The early church was a community characterized by one thing above all, it was a community of love. (Acts 2) And it is when the Church once again becomes a community of love that people will be drawn to Christ. In his book Community Making and Peace, M. Scott Peck a Christian psychiatrist, tells of lecture engagements in which he asks people not to speak to him during the intermission periods because he needs that time to renew his thoughts and his energy; and so he asks them to save their questions for the question period. Invariably, Scott Peck notes, people will approach him and when he would reminds them of his request they will burst out, "oh yes, Dr. Peck but so and so from my church is here and I can't let him/her hear my question because they might think poorly of me." (sound familiar?)
What a damning criticism of modern church life! Instead of that accepting, forgiving and understanding love which brings out the best in us, too often the Christian Church is a place where the masks we wear to hide our wounds and hurts, are made even thicker, more impenetrable, because we are afraid of being hurt rather than being loved. (Tom. Ask Tara about this.) You know what I am talking about don't you? We all do. We pretend to be strong and fearless in our faith but we feel something different on the inside. We feel the pressing weight of hurt and we long to share it with someone, anyone but we cannot, because the deepest things within us can only be shared when love is there to listen and to understand.
Comment: That is what I left behind!
And so we play it safe. We are polite and nice to each other but we don't love, because you see, there is a risk in loving. When we love we become vulnerable to great and overwhelming hurt. The Apostle Peter reminded his readers that in Christ, this was a hurt which was worth risking. In his book entitled "I Believe in the Church" David Watson writes these words:
To love at all is to be vulnerable. Love anything, and your heart will certainly be wrung and possibly broken. If you want to make sure of keeping it intact, you must give your heart to no one. . . . Wrap it up carefully round with hobbies and little luxuries; avoid all entanglements; lock it safe in a casket or coffin of your selfishness. But in that casket -- safe, dark, motionless, airless -- it will change. It will not be broken; it will become unbreakable.
Comment: Another BIG reason why I left. I can now step out & risk more because I am now coming to know a whole new community of believers that practice what they preach. It ain't perfect but it's a whole lot better than what I left behind!
The early Christians did not allow their hearts to become unbreakable but, like their master, they loved even to the point of letting their hearts become broken. And here we move to yet another characteristic of the early Church. Because if you love, really love, love God with all your heart, soul and mind. If you love to the very fullest, then you come to the place where you are willing to give the greatest gift of all, you are willing to give your very life in order to express that love.
Listen Tom. I hope U R happy there. My motives R not to get U to jump ship but to explain to U what is happening & WHY. U R one of the few people who knows me better than most. But there's a lot U don't know about me. My heart is pure in this. I have no ulterior motive but to do what I believe is Right. I consider U one of my friends & no matter what happens I want that to continue. K?
YBIJC & friend,
Reg