Here I go again

[Hope 98]

Hello,

I haven't had a lot to say for a while. I hope you all don't mind me blabbering now.

I have a friend who has been married for many years to a man who basically ignores her. She's attempted to end the marriage at various times, and sought counseling. Well...you can probably guess the rest. Main thing is that the pastor keeps convincing her to stay in the marriage. I don't want to try to defend her decision by explaining the full extent of the problems. It's HER marriage, and her decision if it's bad enough to leave.

The problem is that the doctrine of the church that she and I both attend does not allow for divorce except in the case of infidelity.

I've talked before about this church - the people there are among the most loving people I've ever met. Most of what this church teaches and practices is absolutely full of grace. I don't know how in the world that this one sticking point about divorce has not been challenged before. :confused:

Anyway - my friend is moving out tomorrow. Strangely enough - she's not planning to divorce her husband. She just wants her own life. I have no doubt that God is with her. I also strongly suspect that I'll be implicated as an accessory to her "crime." At this point, I'm so ready to confront the issue, I'll be disappointed if I'm not approached for "discipline". :cool:

I don't really need advice. I am certain that I'm am believing and acting in God's will. I guess I'm just hoping for some prayer and encouragement. At the very least, my relationship with this church and relationships with the people in it are going to change. I just don't know exactly how they're going to change. The unknown space before me is not real comfortable. :(

On the other hand, I am sure that God will bring about the best. I have never been so confident of anything in my life. And sometimes just sitting with that feeling makes all of this worth going through. :D

Pray that I don't loose sight of God's presence through the coming storm.

Thanks!

[Florence]

Just a thought . . .

I pulled out my 1947 edition of the American College Dictionary and it defines "infidelity" as "unfaithfulness" and "a breach of trust." Just seems to me that if my husband ignored me, I would consider that an act of "unfaithfulness" and "a breach of trust." Marriage is so much more than s*x. Or doesn't your church believe that?

Florence

[Voyager]

To me, marriage is a relationship that should enhance your life. You should enjoy your partnership. If it becomes a drudgery and a burden to be with the person, why torture yourself? I know that a lot of people believe that you should never divorce unless there is infidelity, but I don't know if God wants any of us to stay in a relationship that becomes unhealthy.

:cool:

[Hope 98]

Thank you Florence.

On one hand they talk about marriage as more than just sex, then they talk around marriage as if it is NOTHING but sex. OK scratch the surface a bit more and it's about the certificate on file at the courthouse. Maybe it's pretty much the same thing. Marriage is a license to have sex.

One thing that I keep thinking is that I am not going to be able to pull a Biblical argument out of my hat and expect it to be acceptable. I'm sure that the pastor has read every passage of scripture that I could use and the exact same words have entirely different meanings to him. And I am expecting to tell him that.

I'll fill you all in on how the whole thing turns out. I'll be glad when it's over.

[Hope 98]

I agree with you Voyager. I don't believe that this marriage in particular is pleasing to God in any way at all. It is unhealthy. It is not really a marriage at all.

Right now, I am certain that God brought me to this church specifically to challenge this doctrine in the context of a real situation. It's not the ONLY thing that I'm there for, but at this moment it is exactly what I'm there for.

I am so sure that I've heard specifically & clearly from God that there is absolutely nothing that this pastor could say to me to shake my faith or my conviction.

Now, I ought to go to bed - I may need to be able to think on my feet tomorrow. :p

[Jerry]

God is currently "Divorced" from Isreal,,,,,,,ask them if God ment spiritual infedelity or sexual infedelity,,,,and upon which kind of infedelity they base their judgement of people or is it both????And then ask if they can direct you to the scripture that states that "Divorce" is the unforgivable sin.After the insuing debate,,,,I am sure you will be "Stoned to Death" in front of the Church :eek:
Love Jerry

[Hope 98]

God is currently "Divorced" from Isreal,,,,,,,ask them if God ment spiritual infedelity or sexual infedelity,,,,and upon which kind of infedelity they base their judgement of people or is it both????And then ask if they can direct you to the scripture that states that "Divorce" is the unforgivable sin.After the insuing debate,,,,I am sure you will be "Stoned to Death" in front of the Church :eek:
Love Jerry

Thanks Jerry! I know that you'd come up with the irrefutable argument.

Once I knew that the pastor knew that my friend had left, and a couple of days had gone by without hearing from him. I wrote an email asking when the "ax would fall". I expected to be disciplined for "encouraging sinful behavior".

However, he said that he knew my opinion in the matter and that he could not expect me to advise her opposed to my own conscience. Once I'd settled into the relief of not having to face my own crisis, I realized that I will have to open some kind of conversation about the "permissible reasons for divorce".

While I KNOW that you are right about divorce NOT being the unforgivable sin. Ironically - divorce isn't even in her plan. The problem that the pastor has is that reconcilliation is not in her plans either.

Anyway - I suspect this situation itself may have people questioning this point of doctrine. My friend is loved and will be missed and she had no problems with anyone at church - it was very very difficult for her to leave. She just knew that "official church doctrine" would not accept her actions. I hope it was right for me to tell people that I believed from the bottom of my heart that if she didn't feel that people would be angry with her for leaving her husband, she would not have wanted to break relationship with anyone.

I actually have a stone that has the scripture about casting the first stone printed on it, and I seriously thought about simply leaving that where it would have to be found by someone in leadership. That particular passage would have been so appropriate to the situation.

Anyway - I've determined without a doubt that one of God's purposes in my life is to challenge the legalism that keeps abused women imprisoned. The most significant benefit of this whole deal is the clarity I've found on the issue. For that, I am truly thankful.

[Jerry]

The problem is that the doctrine of the church that she and I both attend does not allow for divorce except in the case of infidelity.

Dear Hope,,
Just one more point;When a man breaks his vows by not loving his wife as "Christ loved the Church",,,,,,,,,,,,THAT ALSO is infedelity,because he has entered into sexual relationship with a woman under false pretences.Further if a Pastor convinces this woman to stay with a man who does not keep his vows,said Pastor is nothing more than a "Pimp"
Love Jerry

[Hope 98]

Dear Hope,,
Just one more point;When a man breaks his vows by not loving his wife as "Christ loved the Church",,,,,,,,,,,,THAT ALSO is infedelity,because he has entered into sexual relationship with a woman under false pretences.Further if a Pastor convinces this woman to stay with a man who does not keep his vows,said Pastor is nothing more than a "Pimp"
Love Jerry

To be honest with you Jerry - the hardest thing for me to understand is how ANYONE could not see, in scripture, exactly what you're pointing out here! :D

The trouble I really have here is that the church leadership feels compelled to interfere with a divorce "because it is a sin", but they do NOT feel compelled to interfere with an abusive spouse's violent behavior (or in this case, willfully negligent behavior). If pressed - I think they would be able to admit that is indeed sinful behavior - but not of the magnitude that requires them to DO anything about it. :eek:

What makes it more sinful to protect oneself from a cruel spouse, than it is for the spouse to be cruel in the first place? I don't think I'll ever get why - in most "Christian" circles - adultery is considered or treated as more of a sin than murder. :confused:

If he who is without sin may cast the first stone, and no one is righteous, who has the right to tell anyone :p "your sins are bigger than mine" ?

[Kerrin]

:confused:
I've been following this "divorce' thing with great interest. My first marriage was so abusive I'm getting the shakes just dregding it up in my mind.
. The thing that so confused me was, at the time being a very 'Baby" christian I ran in desperation to the church and was told by an elder repeatedly it was my fault and to go home to my husband. i remember going to mum's one day with my baby on my hip and blood pouring down my face while she said same! I ran into the ,then. Pastor of the church in a shop and said I couldn't atke much more, (my weight had dropped to 45kg!), he referred me to a womens group who met weekly to sew little teddy bears..... :( :confused: I remember sitting there thinking what was I doing? Anyway, not long after that i tried to end it all and went through the humiliation of being put in a "safe" place Finally I had the attention. THANK GOD, of at least the police and well 5 long years later it all ended. Then 10 years on, (I'm now 42), I meet a totally different man, who is desperatly wanting to love me as Christ loved the church. As we work through our issues,.............of what qualifies as abuse etcc
Oh my Gosh I have totally lost it and I'm going to have to leave it there for now I am so sorry....... :o :o :o
Kerrin

[Jerry]

Then 10 years on, (I'm now 42), I meet a totally different man, who is desperatly wanting to love me as Christ loved the church. As we work through our issues,.............of what qualifies as abuse etcc
Oh my Gosh I have totally lost it and I'm going to have to leave it there for now I am so sorry....... :o :o :o
Kerrin
No don't be sorry,,,,,,,,,,Lost it ????,,,,,No I think you found it;Matt 13 / 44-46 :D
Love Jerry

[Jerry]

Dear Karrin and Hope,,,,
Please direct me to the Scripture that defines a woman as commiting sin by divorcing an abusive man,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,read carefully,,,,,,,,,,,I bet you can't find it! :D
Love Jerry

[Hope 98]

Kerrin - I am so sorry that you had to endure that. I understand your pain, I know that God didn't expect me to live with that hell, and I know he doesn't expect anyone else to do so either.

Jerry - this pastor & I had a discussion about 6-8 months ago. The basic point was that he could not allow me to teach Sunday School because my opinion differed from official church doctrine. I actually still respect that he was willing to discuss the issue and maintain his conviction rather than change to rules so that a vacancy could be filled.

He then spent the next few Sundays expounding on God's requirement that marriage is "One man & one woman FOR LIFE." Most of the church leadership there has a serious problem with the recent focus on gay marriage, so that was a big part of the message as well.

His scriptural focus was from Matthew 19:
7"Why then," they asked, "did Moses command that a man give his wife a certificate of divorce and send her away?"
8 Jesus replied, "Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning. 9 I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, and marries another woman commits adultery."
10 The disciples said to him, "If this is the situation between a husband and wife, it is better not to marry."

From this he derived that the only permissible reason to divorce was adultery. Not that divorce was REQUIRED, only permissible. He added that "Jesus raised the bar" in the New Testament, and that God gives us the Holy Spirit to enable us to live up to this higher standard. :confused:

Somehow this seems to contradict the very message of salvation that is the Gospel, or am I missing something?

In our initial discussion, I had asked if he might change his mind at some point if it could be scripturally proven. He said that he hated to say no because he didn't want to seem unwilling to learn, but he had studied this for 20 years, and considered it unlikely that there IS scriptural evidence that his view may be wrong. :rolleyes:

I felt that I could come up with several passages, but somehow I couldn't imagine that he would be able to see in them the same message that I saw. At this point, the WHOLE BIBLE convinces me that Jesus wasn't "raising the bar", but pointing to the purpose behind the law, which was always the true standard anyway.

I don't know what would make a difference in the Pastor's view. If we are both reading the same Bible, why does his say one thing to him, and something different to me?

[Jerry]

Dear Hope,,,
Yup ya missed it.Oh you sited the right passages all right.In Hebrew/Greek the subject and object are very specific.All the verses you mentioned have to do with a man writing a certificate of divorce to a woman.This is because at this point in history women were considered chattel property,and it is not possable for property to divorce it's owner.Therefore women divorcing men was not addressed, they didn't even have the mental capicity to entertain the idea.So it comes down to disearnment.My conclution is this;If your Pastor believes that a woman should place her life in danger by staying with an abusive man,then he and I believe in different Gods and Christs.I must conclude that your Pastor is a child of a lesser God.............selah
Love Jerry

[Kerrin]

Dear Karrin and Hope,,,,
Please direct me to the Scripture that defines a woman as commiting sin by divorcing an abusive man,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,read carefully,,,,,,,,,,,I bet you can't find it! :D
Love Jerry
:o Thanks to you all,
I'm so glad you were't here to see me leave this desk a dithering mess, You are absoluteltly right. No-where does God authorize any kind of abuse of women. In fact
Jesus so valued women, I forever have a picture in my head of Mary washing His feet with her hair and perfume, and the love He expressed her.
Thankyou again, I felt like a fool. This forum has exposed so many emotions I didn't know I had. :mad: (just to mention one I thought was buried).
Kerrin