Safe place

[Elisabeth]

It has been prayed a lot of times in my church that the hurting will find that my church is a safe place to be. I have found my church to be a safe place, although it took quite awhile (and driving the pastor and some of my friends there crazy to boot! :p ) But I'm nervous about moving to a new area and possibly going to a new church. And I think "Shouldn't all churches be a safe place to be and a safe place to worship God? And where worshipping God is the first and foremost purpose of the church?" But it's just not true. :( Many churches are not safe places to be, places where the pastor tries to be God, places where the deacons, or the catty women, try to force people to conform to what the church thinks they are to be. :( I just want to be myself and worship God, and I wonder where the places where that will happen are few and far between.

[mary]

Many churches are not safe places to be, places where the pastor tries to be God, places where the deacons, or the catty women, try to force people to conform to what the church thinks they are to be. :( I just want to be myself and worship God, and I wonder where the places where that will happen are few and far between.

And that's the problem, isn't it? Churches have almost uniformly turned into places that are worse than the world. You talk about mere men who are deluded that they're God, control-freak deacons and catty, back-stabbing women... You're describing either a psychiatric ward or my old church - and the churches of many in this forum. Little difference, except that the people in the psych ward are going to get the benefit of their meds and cognitive therapy from their psychiatrists and are probably going to recover to some extent, or at least get some insight into their problems. Not so with these churches: they're just going to fester and putrefy until, mercifully for the surrounding community, the Lord, in His timing, sees fit to make them disappear.

I would rather belong to a nice, friendly bowling league where there's no "one-upsmanship" than to most "churches." (In fact, I have belonged to nice, friendly bowling leagues that are friendlier for the long term than most churches. :) ) What percentage of Christian churches are abusive in some way or other? Well, in the last 7 years, I've belonged to or at least attended about a dozen or more. All have set off some alarms. The one I was kicked out of was a seething, hissing pit of vipers. "Pastor's" wife had the second-longest (second only to his) set of fangs and was always primed with a full payload of venom.

All of the above is why I have this church-planting effort going. The church I'm trying to bring up here is a Gospel-preaching one and I would hope that the Lord would lead real Christians to it. This effort has the side benefit of, if it flies, doing my old "pastor" out of his job, for it would be a congregation of the "split" from his denomination and you really can't have two of these things within 14 miles of each other. :D My real goal is that "pastor" must go back to Europe to find work, hopefully not as a minister. I will be satisfied when, for the safety and security of Christians around here, his job here is l'histoire and he's back where he came from, staring at that certificate of U. S. citizenship that will then mean absolutely nothing. He belongs back in the U. K., where real Christians are despised (only 5% of Brits regularly attend church on Sunday) and where he'll therefore be most comfortable.

Beth, I don't know where or how you find a non-abusive church. I think these are definitely the last days and we need only read 2 Timothy 3 and 4 for our "heads-up" warnings.

Maybe tke316's house church idea is the way to go these days...

mary

[Elisabeth]

You talk about mere men who are deluded that they're God, control-freak deacons and catty, back-stabbing women... You're describing either a psychiatric ward or my old church - and the churches of many in this forum.

Hell, I was in the behavioral unit of a local hospital for almost a week because of severe depression, and I think most of the people there were a lot more sane than my SA pastor and some of the others in that church! :p

Yeah, I guess I could stay going to church where I'm at after we move, make the drive, or I could take my chances - and that's what it feels like, to think about going to church somewhere else, taking my chances. But I do think I'm a little better at spotting "rotten fruit" than I was when I was younger! (I hope I am, anyway.)

[mary]

You and I both, Beth: after 9/11 and what with my son far away, a "probable ovarian cancer diagnosis" hanging over my head, etc., etc., I also wound up hospitalized for "severe clinical depression" and anxiety disorder. OCD, too. On strong meds, a boatload of them, the whole bit.

While "on the unit," however, I found Christian women, and because I'd been allowed to keep my Bible with me - but not my shoelaces :eek: :cool: - I started holding a Bible study in my room every afternoon between "activities." Four or five women would gather... One afternoon, a woman who was about to be transferred to a lockdown place (we were all afraid of her) walked in, sat down on my roommate's bed and said to me, "Could you just read the Beatitudes to me?" I quickly abandoned the study in John that we'd been doing and turned to Matthew 5... "Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven..." When I was done, she looked up at me with tears in her eyes and said "thank you." Then two nurses put her coat on her for the ride to the other hospital. Now, people like her are among the people the Lord is reaching, not "picture-perfect" women who'll give you an air-hug at the church door and stab you in the back in gossip 5 minutes after the service.

You know what? I got more out of that brief Bible study with those women who were as bad off as I was then than anything that I got at that stupid church I was thrown out of 15 months ago. (Well, truth be told, we never had a Bible study at that stupid church: pastor forbade it.)

I think we all get better with time at spotting rotten fruit, Beth. I know I'm a whole lot better at it than I was two years ago. We have the Lord to thank for that!

God bless you, Beth, and keep you tonight - and tomorrow.

mary

[Janice]

While "on the unit,"

LOL...In all the times I've talked about my time in the psyc ward to people I've never heard it put like this.

Just struck me funny. :D

[mary]

While "on the unit,"

LOL...In all the times I've talked about my time in the psyc ward to people I've never heard it put like this.

Just struck me funny. :D

Oooh, Janice... "while 'on the unit'..." Although I was actually hospitalized for a total of only about 6 days, a lot of the time, I often feel as though I'm still (or belong) "on the unit!" :D :D :D

Story of my whole life: not "forever in blue jeans," according to the Neil Diamond song, but - "forever 'on the unit'..." :p ;) :D

Well... You and I and others who've been in psych wards at least have attestation, shall we say, that we are, at present, "altogether..." There are some people walking around (but no one here! ;) :) ) who are nuttier than any Planter's factory and have never spent a minute in a psych ward. :eek: :rolleyes:

mary

[Carmen]

And I think "Shouldn't all churches be a safe place to be and a safe place to worship God? And where worshipping God is the first and foremost purpose of the church?"
I agree that ideally, all churches should be a safe place to be, more's the pity when they are not. About worship, I think that not only can song and dance, raising hands, etc. be seen as worship, but everything we do can be an act of worship towards God, every time we obey him and think of his ways. We don't need a church building or even a congregation for that kind of worship. God sees our obedience and knows our hearts, he is always with us. Remember that you are part of the Church too and that the Holy Spirit is always with you.

I hope you find a good church if you have to change yours after you move. After being burned in one too, I can imagine how that might make you feel.

[Ladybug]

I've been going through the comments on being in a church that is a "safe place." It is hard to find a church where one can feel safe.

I know the Lord led me to where I'm at presently and the healing continues. The Lord has placed me within a cell group of ladies where I feel safe.

My heart breaks for the women who sit in "silence," and haven't begun to recover. Because I se in "silence"" in church for about 19 years. I think church leadership needs to be more aware of the needs of those who are hurting. Maybe I'm not being realistic? Then train some folks to be able to help these people for the long haul. Any thoughts?

I ended up in the psyhci ward after a combination of circumstances that seemed to have hit full force and I didn't have time to regroup emotionally. I knew I needed help and that suicide wasn't the answer.

I remember one of the church staff who came over to visit and it didn't do anything for me. Part of that may of been because of medication adjustments. I felt as if he was doing his "duty..." I thought to myself, "Don't quote scripture to me, because I know all those pat answer verses." I'm not sure what I wanted or needed at that time....

Because of unemployment about to run out, I had to move and that mean moving back in with my Mom. I'm thankful for a place to stay, but once you leave home it's not the same when you return. How true! But one of the blessings of being at home. The Lord provided a friend that I met at church. I believe she helped me to keep it together until I could enroll in the rehab. program. I was also going for counseling at that time too.

It was hard to be at home and family trying to understand and yet not understanding. Does that make sense? One member of family thought the depression was all in my "head" and I should be able to just get over it and move forward. That hurt because as I learned more about depression, it's not all in one's head. Thankfully, I found out that my depression is caused from a chemical imbalance.

So finally an opening was available at rehab in their Business program. I was wanting to upgrade my computer skills. I spent almost a year at rehab. It was the best thing for me.

After graduating from rehab. My disability went through the first time! I know the Lord shoved it through! :) So the Lord led me to a brand new housing for low-income. Sometimes having low income can be to one's advantage. I have a brand new apt! I've lived here for 3 years, now.

So, I was wanting to find a church, The Chaplin at rehab. invited me to the church he attends. I've been at this church for 3 years. One thing I first noticed was that there was something there for everyone as far as being encouraged to grow deeper in one's walk with the Lord. The Pastor is now doing a series of messages on emotional wholeness for the church. It's tremendous to see how the Lord is working and continues to heal areas within me.

I think with each church that I previously attended was preparing me for where I'm at, now. I knew staying in a legalistic church wasn't going to work for me. At first I kept finding these type of churches even though I knew it was not "healthy," it was all I knew. Little by little I began to break away. In my heart I knew in order to become more emotionally and spiritually whole. There had to change.

I don't know all that the Lord has planned for me. I know that I want to help women who are hurting. To help them begin their emotional and spiritual recovery. So that they can go back into their homes and communities and say, "See what the Lord is doing?" To be a source of encouragement to other ladies. The domino effect.

Yet, even where I'm attending, I'm not sure if Pastor sees the desire of my heart. It may not be the right timing either...Pastor isn't a controlling type of person. He's open to new ministries. Maybe the Lord wants me to become more equipped, too. Any thoughts, insights....?

Anyhow, thanks for listening.

[mary]

Ladybug, that series that your pastor is doing on emotional wholeness for the church sounds wonderful. (BTW -- I'll be there on Sunday; just thought I'd let you know...! :D :D ;) )

Could you let the pastor know of your interest in helping others? Maybe a short discussion and/or lunch afterwards with those who are interested. As your signature explicitly states, yes, the Lord does have plans for you, and it was He Who gave you that beautiful heart for others. Maybe you'd like to heal a little more before you do this, but quite possibly, the pastor has just been waiting for someone like you to come along, with a heart for a ministry opportunity like this.

Love in our Lord Jesus Christ to you, Ladybug!

mary

P. S. I do know all about people who don't understand depression... the stories I could tell... :(

[Ladybug]

Hey Mary and anyone else :)

I know there's more healing as the Lord leads. But I also know, that this desire to help others has been consistent since my Junior year in Bible College. That's been a "few" years :)

I'm willing to wait for the Lord's timing and to be in the center of His will. He does know the "plans" He has for all of us.

You are more than welcomed to join me Sunday! :) I'll save you a seat! :)

[Janice]

Oooh, Janice... "while 'on the unit'..." Although I was actually hospitalized for a total of only about 6 days, a lot of the time, I often feel as though I'm still (or belong) "on the unit!" :D :D :D

Story of my whole life: not "forever in blue jeans," according to the Neil Diamond song, but - "forever 'on the unit'..." :p ;) :D

Well... You and I and others who've been in psych wards at least have attestation, shall we say, that we are, at present, "altogether..." There are some people walking around (but no one here! ;) :) ) who are nuttier than any Planter's factory and have never spent a minute in a psych ward. :eek: :rolleyes:

mary

:D :) :rolleyes: :eek:

[Elisabeth]

I like that "nuttier than a planter's factory" remark. I know some people who could probably benefit from some time in a psych ward!

One thing that happened when I was in: a guy from my Sunday School class came in one evening during visitor's hours; I thought he was coming to see me, and it turned out that one of the patients was his son! Small world. About a month later, that same man's wife got up in front of the church to give her testimony, and she said that she has suffered from manic depressive disorder her whole life. She said that a lot of people don't understand mental illness, and the church sometimes makes things worse instead of better by saying things like the "Joy of the Lord" should conquer depression; pray about it, you'll feel better, etc. That lady had guts to stand in front of the congregation of about 400, talk openly about her mental illness, and she also mentioned her step son's depression also, and how the church should and shouldn't behave about it. I owe a lot to her. It seems like, even though a lot of people at the church don't really understand depression, they do show sympathy for it. My family is the same way. I am blessed with people who helped me so much with my battles. :)

[Carmen]

That is a point that many don't understand. Some churchgoers think that God heals everything, always, and that one has some lack of faith if one is not healed and delivered from everything. They don't understand that some people have chemical imbalances and need meds, and that God doesn't heal everything by faith. I don't think that such churches are a safe place.

Others think that being a Christian will solve familial problems. One pastor has told me that if my husband were Christian it would solve everything. I remarked that I knew of Christian men that behaved worse. He said that not everyone that says he's a Christian is one, I think he meant that those people who behave badly and never improve are not Christians even though they might say they are. I said that even though God is sovereign (the pastor and I both believe that) that disobedient Christians can decide not to behave well. There is still an element of free will even with a sovereign God and we are all responsible for our actions. I might doubt that someone is a Christian if he acts badly, but it would be judging him if I would say for certain he isn't a Christian based on his actions (my husband isn't a Christian, he said so himself). Even if he becomes Christian, I think that won't be a guarantee that he will be safe to be around. He will have to work actively to let God change his character first. To me that isn't something that works automatically, and God needs our cooperation to do it.

[Ladybug]

One thing with depression it's something you can't see like a "broken arm." I commend this lady in sharing with her church on depression. :)

My depression is caused from a chemical imbalance. I'll probably be on medication until the Rapture takes place :) I'm thankful for the Lord giving the doctors the medical knowledge to create this type of medication to help others.

I don't understand why people in church equate depression as a n indication of spiritual weakness? Any thoughts? I believe it takes more of a person to admit and to accept that they have a problem. By knowing what the problem is, now, they can take that problem to the Lord and allow the Lord to work. I'm not implying that there's an "instant" healing. At leas now, the Lord and I are working together.

There's even people in the Bible who dealt with depression--Elijah, the one that God fed and then told him to rest...Sometimes the most spiritual thing a person can do is to go take a NAP :)

Scripture says, "There's a time to laugh a time to mourn...." Don't use this as a means not to take care of your depression.

Anyhow, I welcome any insight and comments.

I like that "nuttier than a planter's factory" remark. I know some people who could probably benefit from some time in a psych ward!

One thing that happened when I was in: a guy from my Sunday School class came in one evening during visitor's hours; I thought he was coming to see me, and it turned out that one of the patients was his son! Small world. About a month later, that same man's wife got up in front of the church to give her testimony, and she said that she has suffered from manic depressive disorder her whole life. She said that a lot of people don't understand mental illness, and the church sometimes makes things worse instead of better by saying things like the "Joy of the Lord" should conquer depression; pray about it, you'll feel better, etc. That lady had guts to stand in front of the congregation of about 400, talk openly about her mental illness, and she also mentioned her step son's depression also, and how the church should and shouldn't behave about it. I owe a lot to her. It seems like, even though a lot of people at the church don't really understand depression, they do show sympathy for it. My family is the same way. I am blessed with people who helped me so much with my battles. :)

[mary]

That is a point that many don't understand. Some churchgoers think that God heals everything, always, and that one has some lack of faith if one is not healed and delivered from everything. They don't understand that some people have chemical imbalances and need meds, and that God doesn't heal everything by faith. I don't think that such churches are a safe place.

Others think that being a Christian will solve familial problems. One pastor has told me that if my husband were Christian it would solve everything. I remarked that I knew of Christian men that behaved worse. He said that not everyone that says he's a Christian is one, I think he meant that those people who behave badly and never improve are not Christians even though they might say they are. I said that even though God is sovereign (the pastor and I both believe that) that disobedient Christians can decide not to behave well. There is still an element of free will even with a sovereign God and we are all responsible for our actions. I might doubt that someone is a Christian if he acts badly, but it would be judging him if I would say for certain he isn't a Christian based on his actions (my husband isn't a Christian, he said so himself). Even if he becomes Christian, I think that won't be a guarantee that he will be safe to be around. He will have to work actively to let God change his character first. To me that isn't something that works automatically, and God needs our cooperation to do it.

So true, Carmen - and Beth, your comments, too!

If someone is born when they weren't "supposed" to be (moi, for example) and they get thrown around, kicked and beaten on a daily basis (my father wouldn't let even me come home from the hospital for six weeks after I was born because he didn't want me around) for over 20 years, and terrible things are said to them every day, and they also have chemical imbalances... then, even after the Lord saves that person, as He did me 12 years ago, He's still going to have a lot of work to do in that person in removing and healing and patching up all of the damage... None of us should think that the Lord is done with us when He saves us. NO. He'll take the rest of our earthly lives to sanctify us, to mold us and make us into what He wants us to be, and to heal us and give us hope. His hope! :) And He'll give us an earthly ministry to those who suffer as we did and still do. I thank Him for what I went through, for had I been treated better, as my siblings were, I would not know what I know now: that "seeking and finding" results in the finding of a heavenly Father Who is the opposite of what my earthly "father" was, Who loves perfectly, and Who loves even unlovable me.

So we need medication... 1 Cor. 1:27-29...:D Better to take the meds and stay calm and focused enough, always giving witness to the One Who even provided us with those meds...! :D :eek:

Love,

mary

[SueJean]

:confused: :( :confused: Safe place? I feel safe at the Al-Anon Family Group/ Adult Children meeting. I feel safe at the Al-Anon meetings. It's been 21 months, now, give or take a few days, since I walked out of the SA congregation that we attended.
It's been awhile since I last wrote. I've been researching grief. Boy, have my eyes been opened. My heart responded in, I think, a positive way to what I was reading.
Then...here it comes...as I was grocery shopping I saw the female elder hiding behind a display in the grocery store. Head down, she was picking up the display products as I walked over to my cart that was next to the display. All I could think was, "I have to leave. I have to get out of here now!" I was so upset. I called my husband at work.
Then...ahhh, yet another then...this morning we attended our grand children's dedication. Following service, a woman whom I've known for many years walked up to me. She and I talked about a year ago and I shared with her at that time how much pain I was feeling over this. So, she asked how I was. I blurted something out. She then asked, "Have you forgiven them?" I could have just screamed right there in the foyer.
Safe place.
For whom?
I'm sorry. I'm just bleeding all over the place here. I want to move! Now. Our children all live in the area. sigh. I'm just talking.
Oh, as a result of reading about grief, I am talking with each of my children. I am apologizing to them for things that happened when they were younger. I need to do this...validate their feelings.

[Elisabeth]

[QUOTE=SueJean;46741Then...ahhh, yet another then...this morning we attended our grand children's dedication. Following service, a woman whom I've known for many years walked up to me. She and I talked about a year ago and I shared with her at that time how much pain I was feeling over this. So, she asked how I was. I blurted something out. She then asked, "Have you forgiven them?" I could have just screamed right there in the foyer.
Safe place.
For whom? [/QUOTE]

I know that feeling! "If you forgive, everything will be better and you will no longer have pain." What about healing? Hello? People just don't seem to realize that healing has to take place for the pain to go away, and during that healing, the person wo is going through that healing needs support, not "You must not have forgiven entirely if you still have pain!" :mad: It's like saying, if a person got his arm broken by someone else "If your arm still hurts, you still have unforgiveness in your heart!" It's that stupid.

[SueJean]

Elizabeth,
I could just hug you. Thank you sooooooo much.
Yes. It's like having a broken arm. Thank you for that excellent analogy. I couldn't have said it any better.
Yes. The pain feels that badly. Yes indeed. I'm in tears just even thinking about today. Two of my grandchildren dedicated...I ought to be thinking about the joyous occasion... and my mind returns to that...that conversation! Ugh. I could just scream!!!!! My jaw hurts..from me biting down. I feel like such a mess. I was already feeling uneasy during the worship part of the service. One person was in attendance there who attends the SA group we left. After a few minutes, I whispered to my hubby that I was going out. I went in the room where my son & his loving wife were working with some of the children. They were singing and playing and laughing. I held my granddaughter and bit my lip so as not to cry. My heart hurt that much. Being in that room, though, helped to ease the pain. Then...that lady. I thought that she understood. I thought that she heard me a year ago. I was mistaken.